Ferrybank Shopping Centre - Again

dayshah

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Well according to the majority of the posters on this thread "a Dunnes/Tescos, and a few other small things (laundrette etc) just like out by Ardkeen Stores" should not be allowed, is not necessary and won't serve enough people to justify it etc etc. I have to disagree when you say nobody would begrudge them that, that seems to be all many posters want to do.

If a shopping mall is not desirable then what should go in there? At this stage I don't think there's any possibility of it not including at least a large anchor tenant such as Dunnes/Tesco so what should go in there with a Dunnes/Tesco or similar store?

Who has objected to a Dunnes/Tesco? The Ferrybank Centre is WAY more than just a Tesco.

They can put in a Tesco, laundrette, and indoor go kart/adventure centre for the rest of the empty space.

Maybe it could be remodelled as some sort of call centre, or offices and take advantage of proximity to Belview.

daenerysstormborn3

fricatus wrote: »

You see, that's the problem. That's not going to happen. Nobody drives to a shopping centre, does their business, and then goes into town, just for the hell of it. They go home, and the city centre suffers.

What needed to happen was for the next big shopping centre in Waterford to be built in the city centre, so that it attracts people in. Once they're in the city centre, they'll wander around the streets nearby, but let's not kid ourselves - they won't get back in their cars and drive downtown once they've done their shopping.

The shopping centre is already built. It is sitting there idle. Debating whether or not the next big shopping centre should've been built here, there or wherever is a pointless discussion at this stage.

dayshah wrote: »

Only people with cars will do that, and it will never have the same range of things as the city centre. Also no-one from the Waterford side would think of travelling out there for a snack, no more than someone would travel from Hillview to Ardkeen to go Subway or the café by the Ardkeen library.

Its worth taking a look at Dublin, and places like the CHQ. It has 2 or 3 shops, and about 20 vacant units. It had more, but went out of business due to lack of interest.

At best only half the place will be filled, but that will still take enough business from the city centre for a few cafés to close.

Okay so only people with cars will drive to the shopping centre to have something to eat and do some shopping. How do you think the majority of people get into town from the Ferrybank/Kilkenny/Wexford side?

It's also worth taking a look at Citywest Shopping Centre as I have pointed out numerous times on this thread. I lived in Citywest, went to all the RA meetings, the general consensus was that it was a disaster, wouldn't take off and they'd be stuck with this giant eyesore (it is on an even larger scale than the shopping centre in Ferrybank and in a very prominent position). Look at it now. Booming (as much as a centre can be) and the Luas now stops outside the door. Citywest started out with Dunnes, a small newsagents and a chemist. It now has a few clothes shops, shoes shops, hairdressers, a sports shop, a few different cafes and the usual fast food places. Now can someone please explain how it's not feasible that a shopping centre in Ferrybank wouldn't have a similar footfall as the shopping centre in Citywest. The only difference is Citywest was being built up around the shopping centre, the residential area is already there for miles around the shopping centre in Ferrybank.

robtri

dayshah wrote: »

If anyone thinks people are against this just because its in KK read the TK Maxx thread. The same arguments appear there, and TK Maxx was never in Kilkenny.



If all shopping (apart from groceries and heavy stuff) is concentrated in the city centre people are far more likely to say 'will I meet you in town for lunch, I have to pick something up anyway'. This just does not happen to the same extent in out of town shopping.

We need to maintain a range of shops in the city centre.

Retail is contracting, the VAT increase will make this worse. This won't create new business, it will suck jobs from the city centre and spit out a few of those jobs in Ferrybank.

out of curiousity why?? why do we HAVE to maintain a range of shops in the city centre???

surely the city centre needs to step up its game if it wants to maintain its jobs.... most of the shops in the city centre look like ****e are poorly maintained and outdated looking....

daenerysstormborn3

dayshah wrote: »

Who has objected to a Dunnes/Tesco? The Ferrybank Centre is WAY more than just a Tesco.

They can put in a Tesco, laundrette, and indoor go kart/adventure centre for the rest of the empty space.

The general consensus on this thread (and the few others in this forum) is that the shopping centre shouldn't be used at all purely because it will take jobs away from the city centre. It is all or nothing. It either has to be full to the brim with brilliant shops and booming business or left idle.

I would prefer to see a library there along with a range of shops. In fact wasn't there an announcement this morning about €780,000 being given towards a permanent library in Ferrybank?

Suryavarman

Maybe if it wasn't such a nightmare to get planning permission in Waterford then the proposed New Street shopping centre could have been built. Then we wouldn't have to worry about Ferrybank's shopping centre destroying the city centre. Maybe instead of b*tching about Ferrybank the City Council could make development a bit easier and lower business rates.

daenerysstormborn3

robtri wrote: »

out of curiousity why?? why do we HAVE to maintain a range of shops in the city centre???

surely the city centre needs to step up its game if it wants to maintain its jobs.... most of the shops in the city centre look like ****e are poorly maintained and outdated looking....

I agree with part of your statement. I do think the majority of the shops in town maintain a very poor appearance, I'm not just referring to the Shaws shop front.

I also think that shops in the centre need to up their game with regard to opening hours on weekends, especially Sundays. The Book Centre opens so late on a Sunday that they don't even sell Sunday papers and there are very few newsagents around the town aside from The Book Centre. I have often heard lots of people complain about this around the town.

denis behan city legend

dayshah wrote: »

Reading through this I think most people in Ferrybank want a Dunnes/Tescos, and a few other small things (laundrette etc) just like out by Ardkeen Stores; and I don't think anyone would begrudge them that. But if a full blown shopping mall takes off it will seriously damage the city centre.

I strongly doubt it will be viable in the long term, but it will drain enough life from the city centre to do Waterford harm.

In the end the shopping centre will close down (as it won't cover its running costs), but the damage to the city centre will have been done.

Hi,

Thanks for not begrudging us north city dwellers a shopping centre. I'm sure you didn't mean that to sound patronising and condescending but that's the way it comes accross. Remember we're part of the city as well even if we are ''over the bridge''.

As for the ferrybank centre damaging the city centre, I disagree. There's precious little there worth buying to be honest. Most women I know that want to do serious shopping go anywhere else but Waterford.

Stopping this centre won't alter that reality. If this place takes off, which is a big if to be fair, wouldn't it be better that they're doing it in Ferrybank rather than Cork, Dublin, Newbridge etc?

Ferrybank is as good as it's going to get for the foreseeable future if you want to get big name shops into the city. nobody has any money to be building anywhere in the city centre and as experience has shown, there are enough people around to object to anything that gets proposed there anyway.

wellboytoo

Forget all the planning issues the local begrudgery, the KK/Wfd ****e, the elephant in the room is this beautifull buiding is not economically viable , they owe too much and will not get the required rents they projected to pay back what they owe.
Look whats been happening all around you for the last four years ! why should Ferrybank be any different, if they get to open the doors I will be gobsmacked, how long they stay open after that ??????
Not very is the answer, and then we will have a big set to with the banks and a 65% write off of debts, and then if it has not been vandalsed in the meantime some one will open it again, maybe with a chance, but I doubt it, the footfall is not there .

denis behan city legend

wellboytoo wrote: »

Forget all the planning issues the local begrudgery, the KK/Wfd ****e, the elephant in the room is this beautifull buiding is not economically viable , they owe too much and will not get the required rents they projected to pay back what they owe.
Look whats been happening all around you for the last four years ! why should Ferrybank be any different, if they get to open the doors I will be gobsmacked, how long they stay open after that ??????
Not very is the answer, and then we will have a big set to with the banks and a 65% write off of debts, and then if it has not been vandalsed in the meantime some one will open it again, maybe with a chance, but I doubt it, the footfall is not there .

You could well be right, still, none of us know what deal that the owners have done with their banks or NAMA or what kind of shops they have lined up apart from Dunnes (?).

decies

If they build it they might come !! All depends on what goes in it . If they get a major book store , major jewellery outlet, major record store , good selection of clothes shops, well then it will do serious damage to city centre. Let's be honest it wouldn't take much to rival city square which IMHO has dated badly . Waterford people will still travel near and far. Interesting to hear doc fitz on wireless last week , saying good Xmas last year in wintry conditions ,as people couldn't travel elsewhere to shop!!

fricatus

Suryavarman wrote: »

Maybe if it wasn't such a nightmare to get planning permission in Waterford then the proposed New Street shopping centre could have been built. Then we wouldn't have to worry about Ferrybank's shopping centre destroying the city centre. Maybe instead of b*tching about Ferrybank the City Council could make development a bit easier and lower business rates.

In fairness to the City Council, they approved the Newgate Centre without undue delay, but it was objected to, and appealed to An Bord Pleanála by Brendan McCann. He didn't object to the Ferrybank centre as far as I know, so I don't think you can blame the City Council on that one.

While you're right in general about rates crippling businesses, I would have assumed that anybody setting up in Ferrybank would have to pay broadly similar rates as they would in the city centre. Are the rates charged by WCC significantly higher (or indeed lower) than those charged by KK County Council?

puppetmaster

fricatus wrote: »

While you're right in general about rates crippling businesses, I would have assumed that anybody setting up in Ferrybank would have to pay broadly similar rates as they would in the city centre. Are the rates charged by WCC significantly higher (or indeed lower) than those charged by KK County Council?

There seems to be some cross over issue with planning, But is that shopping center not in Waterford city's environs? meaning WCC would be charging the rates on it ??

This is a simple question regarding clarifying the city boundry of the shopping center and not intended to start an argument of whether Shefflin or McGrath can eat more spuds durin their dinner....

Paddy@CIRL

puppetmaster wrote: »

There seems to be some cross over issue with planning, But is that shopping center not in Waterford city's environs? meaning WCC would be charging the rates on it ??

This is a simple question regarding clarifying the city boundry of the shopping center and not intended to start an argument of whether Shefflin or McGrath can eat more spuds durin their dinner....

Rates will go to Kilkenny CoCo.

TBH, the whole issue of FSC doing damage to the city centre is a moot point. Waterford City Council need to concentrate on trying to improve the city instead of looking to blame their problems on everything else. With or without the FSC, the city centre is on a course to ruin within the next couple of years regardless.

dunphy3

wellboytoo wrote: »

A joint retail strategy .....wtf Waterford City Council and Waterford Chamber of Commerce objected to KK council on its scale etc and were ignored by KK council, now they want them on board???
I hope KK council are spending all the rates they are getting for this wonderful facility wisely.
Maybe they should turn part of it into a new secondary school that is far more likely to get the doors open.

big phil hogan has officaly opened the center,front page rep in the munster,9dec 2011???????? how many more opening will they be,two three more??????.

calvin_zola

amazed all that copper stayed on the outer face of that building without being swiped

fricatus

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Waterford City Council need to concentrate on trying to improve the city instead of looking to blame their problems on everything else.

Yeah, but it all ties in together in an overall plan for tourism, retail, etc. What use all the improvement works in the world (and WCC have been doing plenty, particularly down around the Malll and Bishop's Palace), when a neighbouring local authority can just allow a big shopping centre to be slapped right on the outskirts of the city, without contributing a penny to the city's upkeep in rates?

And before anyone levels this anti-KK accusation again, Waterford County Council did the same by allowing the big business park where Harvey Norman is. The rates there get spent in the county, and you can be sure that that's more likely to mean Dungarvan rather than Tramore or Kilmeaden...

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

With or without the FSC, the city centre is on a course to ruin within the next couple of years regardless.

What, so WCC should just give up trying?

denis behan city legend

fricatus wrote: »

Yeah, but it all ties in together in an overall plan for tourism, retail, etc. What use all the improvement works in the world (and WCC have been doing plenty, particularly down around the Malll and Bishop's Palace), when a neighbouring local authority can just allow a big shopping centre to be slapped right on the outskirts of the city, without contributing a penny to the city's upkeep in rates?

And before anyone levels this anti-KK accusation again, Waterford County Council did the same by allowing the big business park where Harvey Norman is. The rates there get spent in the county, and you can be sure that that's more likely to mean Dungarvan rather than Tramore or Kilmeaden...




What, so WCC should just give up trying?

In fairness, I think we'd all agree (regardless of what side of the fence you're on) that the fact these places are there (Butlerstown Retail Park and the Ferrybank SC) and the fact that the city gets no money is a bit of a joke.

Having said that, it's gonna open soon so hopefully people can make the best of it and try and use it as an opportunity.

Paddy@CIRL

What, so WCC should just give up trying?

Apologies, I should have elaborated on that - If things continue as they are, they may as well give up because they're going to run the city into the ground. They need to make big changes to turn things around and I don't have a whole lot of faith in them to do so ...

sunnysoutheast

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Apologies, I should have elaborated on that - If things continue as they are, they may as well give up because they're going to run the city into the ground. They need to make big changes to turn things around and I don't have a whole lot of faith in them to do so ...

What would you have them do?

For me the City Council haven't really put a foot wrong with the regeneration of the area around the Bishop's Palace in particular.

People should always remember that it's our local serial objector who has often stifled development in the city, not the council. Why, as a green activist, he doesn't object to car-dependent developments on the city boundaries is a mystery to me.

SSE

thomasm

From this weeks Munster. Does that sound like Dunnes are going in..

Dunnes Stores has disputed an arbitrator’s instruction for the retailer to pay almost €20 million to a construction company in relation to the long-awaited Ferrybank Shopping Centre.

The €100 million, mixed-use centre was originally scheduled to open for business in September, 2008. However, the opening did not go ahead because of differences between the development company and Dunnes.

In court on Monday, Holtglen Ltd sought to fast-track the hearing of the Dunnes’ challenge and also indicated it intends to bring its own proceedings for an order enforcing the arbitrator’s award.

mecco

thomasm wrote: »

From this weeks Munster. Does that sound like Dunnes are going in..

Dunnes Stores has disputed an arbitrator’s instruction for the retailer to pay almost €20 million to a construction company in relation to the long-awaited Ferrybank Shopping Centre.

The €100 million, mixed-use centre was originally scheduled to open for business in September, 2008. However, the opening did not go ahead because of differences between the development company and Dunnes.

In court on Monday, Holtglen Ltd sought to fast-track the hearing of the Dunnes’ challenge and also indicated it intends to bring its own proceedings for an order enforcing the arbitrator’s award.

Bad week for Dunnes... €36million owed to the government for plastic bag charges and a further €20million to the construction company you mentioned.

Every cloud has a silver lining though for the CEO or owner. He'll fit right in at any bar complaining about the government and the property developers taking his money!!

Silverado

fricatus wrote: »

What use all the improvement works in the world (and WCC have been doing plenty, particularly down around the Malll and Bishop's Palace), when a neighbouring local authority can just allow a big shopping centre to be slapped right on the outskirts of the city, without contributing a penny to the city's upkeep in rates?

And before anyone levels this anti-KK accusation again, Waterford County Council did the same by allowing the big business park where Harvey Norman is. The rates there get spent in the county, and you can be sure that that's more likely to mean Dungarvan rather than Tramore or Kilmeaden...

This is the very reason that Waterford City Council need to have control of all the environs of the city. In another thread it was mentioned that we don't need to unite Waterford Co. Council and Waterford City Council, we need to use a 10km radius from the centre of the city (say Ballybricken's Bull Post) and then call that the urban area of administration.

It is ridiculous that Waterford should have had to suffer these developments on its perimeter which it could not control. To make matters worse when they did object to the Ferrybank Centre they were overruled by An Bord Pleanala. When chance have we got with this type of behaviour. This is the administration of nincompoops and we are all paying the price now.

Manic087

I've been seeing a few people in here recently doing a bit of work so hopefully something's happening with it at any rate!

Nypd

Manic087 wrote: »

I've been seeing a few people in here recently doing a bit of work so hopefully something's happening with it at any rate!

I heard on the news that a library is being put into it, nice for the community but a farce all the same.

kennygg76

The centre is opening in april, the library is the first thing to go in. I was talking to the person who petitioned to get it open. She said that they have loads of interest from businesses to occupy the 20 units available. Dunnes stores has paid 18 out of the 36 million for the unit, they are paying the remaining balance in instalments. If they pull out of the unit they will lose the money they have paid, if another retailer wants to come in they will have to buy out what dunnes has paid in. So its looking likely that dunnes will me the main anchor tennent, fingers crossed. Also all to the money made available for the centre to open has come from south kilkenny county council, waterford county council is not providing any money to open !!!!

Psychedelic

kennygg76 wrote: »

Also all to the money made available for the centre to open has come from south kilkenny county council, waterford county council is not providing any money to open !!!!

It's the private investors who built it and the anchor tenants who are paying for it to open, the KK Council are just putting a library in there. The businesses there will also be paying rates to KK Council, so why would Waterford Co. Council provide money for it to open?

kennygg76

Psychedelic wrote: »

It's the private investors who built it and the anchor tenants who are paying for it to open, the KK Council are just putting a library in there. The businesses there will also be paying rates to KK Council, so why would Waterford Co. Council provide money for it to open?

Sorry I didnt explain enough when I made that statement.
The ferrybank action group petitioned and hounded the waterford and kilkenny councils to get the centre opened so it would then generate interest for businesses to move in, waterford co co did not want to have anything to do with it, kilkenny co co however were interested in moving the centre along so they provided €1 million to put the library and at least get the centre open. When the centre opens you can be sure we will see the waterford mayor with his big smiley head accepting thanks when they didnt have anything to do with it. Thats what I meant, sorry for the rant

Silverado

kennygg76 wrote: »

The ferrybank action group petitioned and hounded the waterford and kilkenny councils to get the centre opened so it would then generate interest for businesses to move in, waterford co co did not want to have anything to do with it, kilkenny co co however were interested in moving the centre along so they provided €1 million to put the library and at least get the centre open. When the centre opens you can be sure we will see the waterford mayor with his big smiley head accepting thanks when they didnt have anything to do with it. Thats what I meant, sorry for the rant

I wouldn't be so sure about the Mayor of Waterford getting involved. Waterford City Council, after all, were the ones who objected to the development all the way to Bord Pleanala.

Bards

kennygg76 wrote: »

Sorry I didnt explain enough when I made that statement.
The ferrybank action group petitioned and hounded the waterford and kilkenny councils to get the centre opened so it would then generate interest for businesses to move in, waterford co co did not want to have anything to do with it, kilkenny co co however were interested in moving the centre along so they provided €1 million to put the library and at least get the centre open. When the centre opens you can be sure we will see the waterford mayor with his big smiley head accepting thanks when they didnt have anything to do with it. Thats what I meant, sorry for the rant

Why would Waterford city council or county council want anything to do with it when they will get not a penny in return, whereas Kilkenny co co has everything to gain by its opening?

Questions should be asked though how kk are spending money by opening a brand new area office in these times of budget deficits, who is benefiting at the tax payers expense?

allthedoyles

Bards wrote: »

Why would Waterford city council or county council want anything to do with it when they will get not a penny in return, whereas Kilkenny co co has everything to gain by its opening?

Questions should be asked though how kk are spending money by opening a brand new area office in these times of budget deficits, who is benefiting at the tax payers expense?

Belview Port is in Kilkenny -- Yet Waterford Port Company have full control.

Check again ... I bet Waterford City Council have some benefit from this development.

Nypd

allthedoyles wrote: »

Bards wrote: »

Why would Waterford city council or county council want anything to do with it when they will get not a penny in return, whereas Kilkenny co co has everything to gain by its opening?

Questions should be asked though how kk are spending money by opening a brand new area office in these times of budget deficits, who is benefiting at the tax payers expense?

Belview Port is in Kilkenny -- Yet Waterford Port Company have full control.

Check again ... I bet Waterford City Council have some benefit from this development.

You seem keen to stress the point of WCC involvement, Are you privaye to information or just hedging your bets ?

Bards

allthedoyles wrote: »

Belview Port is in Kilkenny -- Yet Waterford Port Company have full control.

Check again ... I bet Waterford City Council have some benefit from this development.

Waterford port company Is a company that handles shipping, didn't know kk co co had knowledge on how to run a successfull shipping business?

daenerysstormborn3

Lads could you give the whole Waterford v Kilkenny v Waterford thing a rest already. It has very little bearing on this discussion unless you are delving into the whole rates issue. I'm sure regardless of where you're from you just want to see the shopping centre open and providing whatever services deemed necessary with, hopefully, no detrimental effect to the surrounding areas. The size of the centre, whether it should have been built, what county it's in, what council will benefit from the rates etc. etc. these are all secondary issues to the main issue of just getting the damn thing open, providing some jobs and some services to the surrounding areas.

leduke

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Lads could you give the whole Waterford v Kilkenny v Waterford thing a rest already. It has very little bearing on this discussion unless you are delving into the whole rates issue. I'm sure regardless of where you're from you just want to see the shopping centre open and providing whatever services deemed necessary with, hopefully, no detrimental effect to the surrounding areas. The size of the centre, whether it should have been built, what county it's in, what council will benefit from the rates etc. etc. these are all secondary issues to the main issue of just getting the damn thing open, providing some jobs and some services to the surrounding areas.

couldn't agree more!

dayshah

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Lads could you give the whole Waterford v Kilkenny v Waterford thing a rest already. It has very little bearing on this discussion unless you are delving into the whole rates issue. I'm sure regardless of where you're from you just want to see the shopping centre open and providing whatever services deemed necessary with, hopefully, no detrimental effect to the surrounding areas. The size of the centre, whether it should have been built, what county it's in, what council will benefit from the rates etc. etc. these are all secondary issues to the main issue of just getting the damn thing open, providing some jobs and some services to the surrounding areas.

It was made clear this is not about Waterford v Kilkenny. The same people against this were against TK Maxx out in Butlerstown.

I don't want it to open because I think the damage done will be greater than any benefit to Ferrybank.

daenerysstormborn3

Well I think it will benefit a far greater area than just Ferrybank.

Sully

Opening a shopping center with a library inside is never a good sign anyway

dayshah

Sully wrote: »

Opening a shopping center with a library inside is never a good sign anyway

Why? Is it a sign they can't get retail tenants or something?

Sully

dayshah wrote: »

Why? Is it a sign they can't get retail tenants or something?

Nothing factual, but you don't really see any major shopping center or any shopping center really having libraries. Its completely bizarre that KCC think opening a big center with only one tenant (Dunnes?) and a Library will get businesses signing up.

Why not just offer incentives to get businesses in? Cut the rates? Why go for a library?

daenerysstormborn3

I know local groups have been campaigning for years for a library so maybe the only way they could get it was if they agreed to put it in the shopping centre. I mean realistically, where else could you put a library in Ferrybank? And as regards the centre, it makes the people in charge look like they are doing something.

rasper

Sully wrote: »

dayshah wrote: »

Why? Is it a sign they can't get retail tenants or something?

Nothing factual, but you don't really see any major shopping center or any shopping center really having libraries. Its completely bizarre that KCC think opening a big center with only one tenant (Dunnes?) and a Library will get businesses signing up.

Why not just offer incentives to get businesses in? Cut the rates? Why go for a library?

I know of plenty of libraries in centres , lilac, Lucan and blanchardstown and in cork douglas and wilton to name a few, it's a done thing off load kids and do shopping

Sully

rasper wrote: »

I know of plenty of libraries in centres , lilac, Lucan and blanchardstown and in cork douglas and wilton to name a few, it's a done thing off load kids and do shopping

Suppose it depends on the type of centers. Never saw it in the Ilac / Blanch!

south

there's one in ardkeen also.

Sully

south wrote: »

there's one in ardkeen also.

I wouldn't really call Ardkeen a Shopping Center tho.

south

well they do

daenerysstormborn3

Where is the library in the ilac centre?

The library in blanch is across from the shopping centre and I may be wrong but I think that's just coincidental, I don't think the library is necessarily part of the shopping centre.

smileychick

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Where is the library in the ilac centre?

The library in blanch is across from the shopping centre and I may be wrong but I think that's just coincidental, I don't think the library is necessarily part of the shopping centre.

http://www.ilac.ie/facilities/

dayshah

Sully wrote: »

Nothing factual, but you don't really see any major shopping center or any shopping center really having libraries.

The ilac centre has one, but that was probably planned before construction. To me it just looks like Kilkenny CoCo are desperate for it to open, and think this will be a sweetener.

Will residents of the Waterford City Council be allowed borrow books there?

Funfair

dayshah wrote: »

The ilac centre has one, but that was probably planned before construction. To me it just looks like Kilkenny CoCo are desperate for it to open, and think this will be a sweetener.

Will residents of the Waterford City Council be allowed borrow books there?

One would imagine they would when half the population of Ferrybank are under the city council control..

daenerysstormborn3

dayshah wrote: »

The ilac centre has one, but that was probably planned before construction. To me it just looks like Kilkenny CoCo are desperate for it to open, and think this will be a sweetener.

Will residents of the Waterford City Council be allowed borrow books there?

I've never heard of any library having rules on book borrowing relative to someone's how address (within reason obviously).