Seal of Confession

toby08

gigino wrote: »

+1. If the priest himself who was hearing the confession was not an abuser himself, then certainly he knew some of his colleagues who were abusers.


All it takes for evil to thrive is for "good" men to do nothing.

That is my point exactly. as to the previous point there must be something really wrong with confession if a priest was wìlling as was stated to go to prison rather than do the morally and humanly correct thing break the seal and punish the guilty

alex73

toby08 wrote: »

That is my point exactly. as to the previous point there must be something really wrong with confession if a priest was wìlling as was stated to go to prison rather than do the morally and humanly correct thing break the seal and punish the guilty

Then people will simply not confess...

dvpower

alex73 wrote: »

Then people will simply not confess...

Good. If their confession is empty in the first place, why give them the outlet?

toby08

I gather from this thread that the seal of confession is canon law. Could i be so bold as to suggest that jesus words should be followed
Jesus said, “Temptations, stumbling blocks, enticements are surely to come, but whoever causes one of these little ones to sin, it would be better that a giant millstone would be tied around their neck and they would be thrown into the sea
If these were jesus wordr i for one am sure he would himself break the confessional seal. Maybe he is through the government

lmaopml

..because the 'outlet' provides opportunity to help them and to make them look more inwards? Like no other? ..and provides opportunity to protect and also to advise? - but never advertise?

God, only knows the value of the 'confessional' and it's unique way...the simplicity of tearing it down in Irish law, is to me a bewilderingly 'simple fix' approach....... much like the avoidance of 'good' laws has been categorically ignored with a 'blimp' on the screen that Veronica Guiran made

It seems if it 'sells' that is most important. People 'buy' it. Veronica stood out among her media counterparts for wanting to change 'information' and colouring 'law', but it seems that nothing has actually changed, it's all still populist shyte that sells, even though actual criminals don't inspire changing of 'law' to prosecute, whether a person is Caholic or whether they are just an ordinary citizen paying taxes. Nothing has 'actually' changed. Of course targetting the confessional will fix everything and is a great way to divert from what is 'actually' wrong, and blame is assigned...and bought.

dvpower

lmaopml wrote: »

..because the 'outlet' provides opportunity to help them and to make them look more inwards? Like no other? ..and provides opportunity to protect and also to advise? - but never advertise?

So we give rapists the outlet of attending sham confessions so that they might 'look more inwards' while they continue to rape.
No thanks. Let's just tell the authorities, so they might be apprehended.

lmaopml wrote: »

God, only knows the value of the 'confessional' and it's unique way...the simplicity of tearing it down in Irish law, is to me a bewilderingly 'simple fix' approach

No one is tearing it down - mandatory reporting will only apply to a very small set of offences.

lmaopml wrote: »

Of course targetting the confessional will fix everything and is a great way to divert from what is 'actually' wrong, and blame is assigned...and bought.

There is no targeting of the confessional; mandatory reporting will cover a range of professionals.

Bob Cratchet

gigino wrote: »

+1. If the priest himself who was hearing the confession was not an abuser himself, then certainly he knew some of his colleagues who were abusers.


All it takes for evil to thrive is for "good" men to do nothing.

We would hardly expect you to know the difference between thinking you know something and having any evidence to prove it.

toby08

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

We would hardly expect you to know the difference between thinking you know something and having any evidence to prove it.

A quick question i just noticd the ''we'' does this mean i can publish group comments as opposed to individual ones.as for evidence i do not think boards.ie would allow names do you?

Bob Cratchet

toby08 wrote: »

A quick question i just noticd the ''we'' does this mean i can publish group comments as opposed to individual ones.as for evidence i do not think boards.ie would allow names do you?

The poster in question has considerable form on this forum for making hysterical claims and accusations then not being able to provide a shred of evidence, proof, or supporting links.

toby08

Nite folks i have to attend an early mass. I still firmly believe that change has to come regarding the confessional.ìt will have to be external. Before you comment on my journey you should first walk in my shoes

raymon

Some post here suggest that the priest and confession has some healing , or counselling ability

Priests have no healing powers or psychotherapy training.

The problem arises when the think that god and prayer and sacraments can help the rapist from raping

This is a dangerous assumption.

Priests have no special powers in this regard , nor does confession

alex73

raymon wrote: »

Some post here suggest that the priest and confession has some healing , or counselling ability

Priests have no healing powers or psychotherapy training.

The problem arises when the think that god and prayer and sacraments can help the rapist from raping

This is a dangerous assumption.

Priests have no special powers in this regard , nor does confession

Nobody is talking about "powers".. Priests are trained to help others.

Confession is forgiveness of sins "In persona Christi". Its a sacrament that goes back to beginning of the church. The seal of Confession does not allow the priest to divulge the persons sins.

Evil people don't really care about sin and forgiveness. Confession is note on their "To Do" list. If a rapist is going to confession then he knows what he is going is wrong and the priest can help him see reason and to seek help from Authorities, and as penitence to turn himself in.

If the Priest were to run out of the confessional to detain the person... Do you honestly think that going forward anybody would confess this crime, it would be end of confidential confession. Priests might aswell put a sign up saying "if your sins would warrant arrest under Irish law do not confess them as I an obliged to report you to the Police..."

Do you honestly think that if a priest who hears these terrible crimes does not take steps with the person to make sure they see help, go to guards, give a statement. The priest will help to open the persons conscience. At the end of the day as Christians we will have to face God with our Sins and his justice is far worse than any justice on earth.

Over the past number of days is nearly been made out by the media that the whole church seems to be involved with the Coverup... This could not be further from the truth. The Majority of Priests are honest decent people who have never laid a finger on any child or anybody.

gigino

alex73 wrote: »

Over the past number of days is nearly been made out by the media that the whole church seems to be involved with the Coverup...

Why not sue the media so if its not true ? Unfortunately child abuse and the cover-up of same is "endemic" in the Irish Roman Catholic Church, to use the governments own word of description. No religion can be above the law of the land break the seal now. If the RCC has nothing to hide it should be as open as possible. If, for example, one priest confesses to another priest of past / present abuse - are you really that afraid of that being reported ? Surely the welfare of the victims comes first.

wonderfulname

alex73 wrote: »

Over the past number of days is nearly been made out by the media that the whole church seems to be involved with the Coverup... This could not be further from the truth. The Majority of Priests are honest decent people who have never laid a finger on any child or anybody.

People are reading it wrong if this is what they are hearing. The way in which the church operates makes it attractive and easy for a paedophile to operate within. 95% of priests may be good men, but the institution itself and the regimes within makes life far too easy on the other 5%, hence the institution needs to change so as to stop facilitating these men.

Its not the people in the church, it's the church, the rules, traditions, and general lack of regard for any outside information. Your local priest is very far removed from this.

alex73

gigino wrote: »

Why not sue the media so if its not true ? Unfortunately child abuse and the cover-up of same is "endemic" in the Irish Roman Catholic Church, to use the governments own word od description. No religion can be above the law of the land break the seal now.

Some are suing .

Child abuse is "Endemic". You make it sound like abuse it taking place today.

Well I can tell you that today any allegation is reported to the civil Authorities. No bishop is covering anything up today.

Also the Majority of Priests are not abusers. That is a fact. Priests today are taking every precaution to have ZERO interaction with kids without an Adult present.

Child abuse in Ireland is still a reality and sadly its carried our be Families and people known to the child. In 2011 Ireland its not being carried out by priests.

Bob Cratchet

wonderfulname wrote: »

Its not the people in the church, it's the church, the rules, traditions, and general lack of regard for any outside information. Your local priest is very far removed from this.

"The Church" consists of 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide. Without a doubt it has been infiltrated by evil Cardinals and Bishops, who use spin, lie, and counter accusation to protect their positions. Not trying to separate and prove the guilty hierarchy from the innocent only protects the guilty and damages the Church even further, which is the goal of many a vested interest. Not all the apostles are Judas Iscariot, nor is he "the Church"

wonderfulname

gigino wrote: »

If, for example, one priest confesses to another priest of past / present abuse - are you really that afraid of that being reported ? Surely the welfare of the victims comes first.

Why always mention the priest confessing? The nature of abuse is such that a child is made to responsible to some degree, it is perfectly feasible that they would confess it, in fact it seems more feasible to me that they would than the perpetrator.

What does a priest do in this situation? How can you send a child back into that?

wonderfulname

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

"The Church" consists of 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide. Without a doubt it has been infiltrated by evil Cardinals and Bishops, who use spin, lie, and counter accusation to protect their positions. Not trying to separate and prove the guilty hierarchy from the innocent only protects the guilty and damages the Church even further, which is the goal of many a vested intrest.

Oh for the love of... did you even read my post? There is a difference between the institution and those within it.

alex73

wonderfulname wrote: »

Why always mention the priest confessing? The nature of abuse is such that a child is made to responsible to some degree, it is perfectly feasible that they would confess it, in fact it seems more feasible to me that they would than the perpetrator.

What does a priest do in this situation? How can you send a child back into that?

EXCELLENT POINT!!!!. The priest will tell the child to tell their Parents about the abuse and to go to the Police. The priest will say they committed not crime or sin and that what was done to them was wrong.

The priest can do a number of things to make sure the child does not go back to the abuser.

wonderfulname

alex73 wrote: »

You make it sound like abuse it taking place today.

Prove it's not, assuming so is a bit too much in my opinion. Especially when we can show it til' 2 years ago, I mean really...

gigino

alex73 wrote: »

No bishop is covering anything up today.

History shows RCC bishops only admit something when its shown / proven against them....and how do you know for certain no bishop is covering up anything today ? You would have said the same 10, 30 years ago...

alex73 wrote: »

In 2011 Ireland its not being carried out by priests.

Do you watch all of Irelands 3000 priests 24 hours a day wherever they are ?
And if less - or hopefully no - abuse is being carried out
, its partly due to the media exposure of the RCC, which you so deplore;)

Bob Cratchet

wonderfulname wrote: »

Oh for the love of... did you even read my post? There is a difference between the institution and those within it.

Calm down. The Church is the people in it.

wonderfulname

alex73 wrote: »

EXCELLENT POINT!!!!. The priest will tell the child to tell their Parents about the abuse and to go to the Police. The priest will say they committed not crime or sin and that what was done to them was wrong.

The priest can do a number of things to make sure the child does not go back to the abuser.

You make it sound so simple, why do you think they would have not told their parents already? Or the guards? Would it be because another trait of this kind of abuse is that the abuser makes such a move psychologically extremely difficult?
Much too difficult for a child in many cases.

If an adult hears of such a case then they have a moral duty to do something concrete for the child, forget the legalities.

wonderfulname

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Calm down. The Church is the people in it.

In an airy fairy sense, yes. But that is not the sense that is being spoken of, you must at the very least understand the concept of the institution that is there separate to the people?

Bob Cratchet

wonderfulname wrote: »

In an airy fairy sense, yes. But that is not the sense that is being spoken of, you must at the very least understand the concept of the institution that is there separate to the people?

Airy fairy ? People are reality. People good and bad, the wheat need to be seperated from the Chaff, not allowed to hide behind the "sure the whole church is bad" agenda.

No doubt foreigners could make the same generalisation about Ireland.
"Sure Ireland is corrupt"

wonderfulname

Nobody is saying the whole church is bad, don't dodge my question; do you understand the concept of the institution that is there separate to the people?

Bob Cratchet

wonderfulname wrote: »

Nobody is saying the whole church is bad, don't dodge my question; do you understand the concept of the institution that is there separate to the people?

You have no understanding of the institution then, as the Church is a collection of people.
I could claim "The Republic of Ireland is Corrupt" - such hyperbole is meaningless.

wonderfulname

The collective people are not the rules they are governed by, the collective people are not the design of the heirarchy, canon law, or any other creation of Catholicism, the collective people were merely born into this, this which is referred to as the church, as an institution.

Again, just because you read "the church" as "collective of people", doesn't mean the rest of the world does, what the media etc are talking about is not 1.1 billion people, it's the rest of it. The media is not catholic, it is not going to use words in a catholic sense.

AhSureTisGrand

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Calm down. The Church is the people in it.

If Donatello were still here he could lecture about the Church being the Bride of Christ and how the Church itself is flawless but it's members aren't etc...

If you were lucky he might tell you about spiritual lesbianism

wonderfulname

Will you tell us instead?