Seal of Confession

gigino

Apart from the Cardinal and the Swiss theologian Father whose links I gave you earlier, other people with extensive knowledge of Priests are willing to put their neck on the line and say they recognise the link between some celibate people + their abuses :

More surprising has been the contribution to the debate of senior figures from inside the Church, including Hamburg Auxiliary Bishop Hans-Jochen Jaschke, who seemed to add fuel to the fire of those making a connection between priestly celibacy and paedophilia.

He was quoted as saying that the "celibate lifestyle can attract people who have an abnormal sexuality and cannot integrate sexuality into their lives." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8604800.stm

Suzie Sue

gigino wrote: »

Apart from the Cardinal and the Swiss theologian Father whose links I gave you earlier, other people with extensive knowledge of Priests are willing to put their neck on the line and say they recognise the link between some celibate people + their abuses :

More surprising has been the contribution to the debate of senior figures from inside the Church, including Hamburg Auxiliary Bishop Hans-Jochen Jaschke, who seemed to add fuel to the fire of those making a connection between priestly celibacy and paedophilia.

He was quoted as saying that the "celibate lifestyle can attract people who have an abnormal sexuality and cannot integrate sexuality into their lives." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8604800.stm

Oh dear oh. Do you read anything you cut and paste ?

"celibate lifestyle can attract people who have an abnormal sexuality and cannot integrate sexuality into their lives."

the term "abnormal sexuality" does not have the same meaning as the word "celibate"

I'll ask you again, instead of providing useless misquote after useless mis quote, can you please post us a proper medical psychological study that links the causes of child abuse with celibacy ?

Now can you also explain what this has to do with the topic "Seal of the Confession" ?

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

Really.... How many organisations offer confidential counselling?

Try drawing up a law and getting it passed and you will see the pitfalls.

A priest is the wrong person to offer counselling of rapists, or victims. it should be left to professionals

wonderfulname

Suzie Sue wrote: »

Oh dear oh. Do you read anything you cut and paste ?

"celibate lifestyle can attract people who have an abnormal sexuality and cannot integrate sexuality into their lives."

the term "abnormal sexuality" does not have the same meaning as the word "celibate"

I believe it is you that didn't read, gigino is making the same point that I did earlier, celibacy in the priesthood gives a certain attraction to the post for those who were never interested in marriage in the first place, a valid point, and one which is very well known.

As for why it's being talked about on this thread, stop talking about it yourself if you want to preach about off-topicness.

Asry

raymon wrote: »

A priest is the wrong person to offer counselling of rapists, or victims. it should be left to professionals

In fairness, many priests are trained in things like that as well. Many Jesuits, for example. In the seminary, I presume they're taught techniques to help people and connect with them and troubleshoot their problems, as it were? (hehe troubleshoot) Much great advice I've recieved has been from priests, practical advice as well, and yes, it was about what could be percieved as 'abnormal' sexuality....depending on what the definition of abnormal would stand on.

gigino

Asry wrote: »

Much great advice I've recieved has been from priests, practical advice as well, and yes, it was about what could be percieved as 'abnormal' sexuality.....

Good for you, glad you are a satisfied customer ( and had not a bad experience ) as it were...but what works for you clearly has not been the experience of everyone. If I was a youngster who had a problem about abnormal sexuality, the last person I would look for advice from is a celibate frocked man. Too many memories of friends who talked of getting a mars bar and a few packets of taytos from the priest, in return for favours done with the priest.

Asry

gigino wrote: »

Too many memories of friends who talked of getting a mars bar and a few packets of taytos from the priest, in return for favours done with the priest.

Nothing like that has ever happened to me or my friends, thankfully.

gimmebroadband

Jesus instituted the Sacraments, the RCC administers them.

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/The%20Seven%20Sacraments%20Instituted%20by%20Jesus%20Christ.htm

They have been the life-blood of the Church for 2000 years. We cannot partake of the Eucharist without the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. Confession is between Jesus and the Penitent - Jesus uses the Priest to administer absolution! Once the sin is absolved it's completely forgotten by Jesus, and the Priest!

Sacraments have been abused more by the laity than by Priests. How many people who shack up together, contracept, abort babies etc., and still present themselves for Holy Communion without ever going to Confession!

1 Corinthians 11:27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.

Suzie Sue

gigino wrote: »

Too many memories of friends who talked of getting a mars bar and a few packets of taytos from the priest, in return for favours done with the priest.

LOL that's an old joke your now trying to portray as factual ?
Find me ONE report in any of the reports where the "mars bar and a few packets of taytos" was actually used ? You're some sick chancer, the abuse stories are bad enough without making up and adding your own sick details.

Asry

gimmebroadband wrote: »

How many people who shack up together, contracept, abort babies etc., and still present themselves for Holy Communion without ever going to Confession!

1 Corinthians 11:27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.

In that case I am a grave sinner. Yes, I go to confession, but it's not about things like that. Well, abortion maybe. But I wouldn't be one of those hard-line anti-abortion nuts. I just don't think I'd do it, personally. But obviously how would I know until I was in that situation myself? And that's the most important thing of all - the situation that the woman is in. As with a birth or an abortion, one person will always be delivered - either the baby, or the woman.

gigino

Suzie Sue wrote: »

LOL that's an old joke your now trying to portray as factual ?
Find me ONE report in any of the reports where the "mars bar and a few packets of taytos" was actually used ?

Not every boys experience of the Roman Catholic Church is in some report. Its not a joke, there is nothing funny about a member of the rc clergy abusing boys on an individual basis , who later gave them mars bars + taytos. It is one good reason why - unlike another poster - if I was a youngster who had a problem about abnormal sexuality, the last person I would look for advice from is a celibate frocked man.;)

antiskeptic

gigino wrote: »

Too many memories of friends who talked of getting a mars bar and a few packets of taytos from the priest, in return for favours done with the priest.

The priest down our way had some diabolical class. Father McNamee (or Father SmackMyGee as he was appropriately known) had the child-magnet of a private swimming pool built onto the parish house.

raymon

Asry wrote: »

In fairness, many priests are trained in things like that as well. Many Jesuits, for example. In the seminary, I presume they're taught techniques to help people and connect with them and troubleshoot their problems, as it were? (hehe troubleshoot) Much great advice I've recieved has been from priests, practical advice as well, and yes, it was about what could be percieved as 'abnormal' sexuality....depending on what the definition of abnormal would stand on.

Wrong , priests have no capability in this regard.

PDN

raymon wrote: »

Wrong , priests have no capability in this regard.

Some have since they are trained in that particular area. Some haven't.

raymon

PDN wrote: »

Some have since they are trained in that particular area. Some haven't.

Very few .

Priests in general should not give counselling.

The problem with priests and taxi drivers is that they think they have the skills to counsel people

Manach

Given the popularity of Boards.ie, it would seem that everyone has some skills to give advice to other posters. If we were restricted to discussing just what we were trained in, it would make a fairly quite site.

raymon

Manach wrote: »

Given the popularity of Boards.ie, it would seem that everyone has some skills to give advice to other posters. If we were restricted to discussing just what we were trained in, it would make a fairly quite site.

I agree , but counselling a rapist is a lot different than giving someone advice about what type of Android smartfone to buy, or which political party has the best policies.

Priests cannot or should not try to heal/fix/cure/counsel unless they are accredited by the appropriate civil authorities.*

*Note : god is not an appropriate authority in this regard

georgieporgy

raymon wrote: »

I agree , but counselling a rapist is a lot different than giving someone advice about what type of Android smartfone to buy, or which political party has the best policies.

Priests cannot or should not try to heal/fix/cure/counsel unless they are accredited by the appropriate civil authorities.*

*Note : god is not an appropriate authority in this regard

Why is God not an appropriate authority?

raymon

georgieporgy wrote: »

Why is God not an appropriate authority?

Largely because god is imaginary.

georgieporgy

raymon wrote: »

Largely because god is imaginary.

Seeing as you are so wrong with that, then all your other judgements and offers of advice are totally useless.

raymon

georgieporgy wrote: »

Seeing as you are so wrong with that, then all your other judgements and offers of advice are totally useless.

Whether god exists or not is a different thread.

In any case priests should only use confession for the forgiveness of sins and stop there
Just like taxi drivers should drive people to their destination.

Neither profession are trained councillors

wonderfulname

georgieporgy wrote: »

Why is God not an appropriate authority?

People who commit the crimes we are talking about need to be counselled by people who have high level degrees in psychology and/or psychiatry, divine intervention, whether it exists or not, will not furnish a priest with the ability or knowledge required to properly analyse and effectively counsel such people. Even if you believe in such intervention you are surely not so deluded as to believe it will cure anyone of anything so long as they ask, there's a lot of cancer patients out there praying their hearts out, it's not going to make them all better.

Some priests are trained to counsel people with everyday issues, bereavement, minor depression, etc but they are not trained to deal with issues such as paedophilia, trying to say as such is like claiming someone trained to man an phone for the Samaritans is adequately trained to certify insanity for legal purposes, or that someone with a first aid cert can do open heart surgery. Having some training does not mean you can handle any eventuality in the area.

raymon

wonderfulname wrote: »

People who commit the crimes we are talking about need to be counselled by people who have high level degrees in psychology and/or psychiatry, divine intervention, whether it exists or not, will not furnish a priest with the ability or knowledge required to properly analyse and effectively counsel such people. Even if you believe in such intervention you are surely not so deluded as to believe it will cure anyone of anything so long as they ask, there's a lot of cancer patients out there praying their hearts out, it's not going to make them all better.

Some priests are trained to counsel people with everyday issues, bereavement, minor depression, etc but they are not trained to deal with issues such as paedophilia, trying to say as such is like claiming someone trained to man an phone for the Samaritans is adequately trained to certify insanity for legal purposes, or that someone with a first aid cert can do open heart surgery. Having some training does not mean you can handle any eventuality in the area.

Exactly

PDN

raymon wrote: »

Whether god exists or not is a different thread.

In any case priests should only use confession for the forgiveness of sins and stop there
Just like taxi drivers should drive people to their destination.

Neither profession are trained councillors

But some are trained counsellors.

PatricaMcKay

raymon wrote: »

Whether god exists or not is a different thread.

In any case priests should only use confession for the forgiveness of sins and stop there
Just like taxi drivers should drive people to their destination.

No they are also supposed to impose a penance, especially in the case of serious sin.

Anyway in order to receive God's forgiveness surely you have to have repentance?

wonderfulname

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

No they are also supposed to impose a penance, especially in the case of serious sin.

Anyway in order to receive God's forgiveness surely you have to have repentance?

You are wrongly assuming repentance is possible, this is a situation where genuine psychiatry is necessary. Paedophilia is defined as a psychiatric disorder, biological associations have been made between such behaviours and brain structure, studies have also shown paedophiles to have elevated psychopathy and mental distortions, it isn't just an action, a paedophile cannot merely repent, they at the very least require a long course of medical intervention.

PatricaMcKay

wonderfulname wrote: »

You are wrongly assuming repentance is possible, this is a situation where genuine psychiatry is necessary. Paedophilia is defined as a psychiatric disorder, biological associations have been made between such behaviours and brain structure, studies have also shown paedophiles to have elevated psychopathy and mental distortions, it isn't just an action, a paedophile cannot merely repent, they at the very least require a long course of medical intervention.

First off let my say I believe in the death for active paedophilia.

Psychopathy is a moral disorder, so is I believe paedophilia, infact I sincerely doubt it has much to do with sex at all.

raymon

PDN wrote: »

But some are trained counsellors.

I'm sure a few taxi drivers are trained councillors too

wonderfulname

Moral disorder? Please define. Morals are by definition subjective, an therefore cannot be disordered, someone may have a mental disorder, which could have the knock on effect of distorting their morals, but morals themselves can not at all be disordered, they are a social construct.

You claim you believe in death for "active paedophilia", but you seem to believe penance as dictated by a priest is sufficent, as an aside, do you also believe it is sufficent justice for victims?

PatricaMcKay

wonderfulname wrote: »

Please define. Morals are by definition subjective

If you believe that morals are by definition subjective than there is little point of us discussing this further.