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State spending €3million on communion rituals
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I'm still poor.
I'll take 200 for a dress if anyone's offering?0 -
And I recall my father coming home in a crap mood one evening 26-odd years ago, since the self-promoters in Self Aid had phoned him a few weeks before and asked him to defer announcement of any hires until the day of the concert, so that, er, he could, er, avail of the positive publicity around the event. I don't recall what he said he told them, but I doubt it was polite.i know why self aid was on
I think you'll find that quite a few regulars have worked with homeless people here in Ireland, travelled extensively in desperately poor places abroad, have been down and out themselves, have had friends, relatives, neighbours stuck in poverty traps, stuck with alcoholism, drug addiction, and so on. Consequently, I think that most have a fairly good understanding of what poverty is and what it entails.u study and philosophise...but u have never been there...have you?
On a mod note, I would ask you to refrain from making that kind of stupid comment about people you don't know from Adam.0 -
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Ah come on, there's no right answer for that...0
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Scientists could include "ask Beruthiel" alongside carbon dating as a means of determining age, but they choose not to >_>0
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Bannasidhe wrote: »Would it be cheating if we cut <edit>her</edit> in half and counted the growth rings?
Oops. Her in half. Gotcha.
I is an embarrassed she for making that assumption
. 0 -
seems ive touched a nerve. good.
ill start with iguana...why is it condescending to try and get people to realise that there may be real poverty out there...families who actually need this payment?
ur view of eighties ireland was not telling the real story.
people like ur parents who had jobs and options...even if it meant budgeting really hard....did not look down on those out of work and with no options.
u see,...those near the bottom were not kicking those at the bottom in the eighties.
as u were only 7 u could not know. this thread might go somewhere useful now that some of u are engaged and a little upset.
might be a positive thing.
maybe ill be given a chance to expand. and open some eyes.0 -
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a post by kylith...which got thanks ..ended thus...
" unescessary in all but the most exceptional circumstances".
im say that families are in those exceptional circumstances now.
and being able to save on the dole is not an exceptional circumstance. ...so spare me that.
being able to save a deposit for a house...is not an exceptional circumstance....so spare me that.
im gonna suppose that those who thanked that post are now waking up a little to what im trying to get into ur heads.0 -
robin,
thx for the post...maybe now people here will start thinking on this issue....because u have highlighted that maybe guys here are not as ignorant as some of their replies are suggesting.
by the way...
on a mod note...ill thank u to have a word with other mods who directly insult posters.
a.h. has the same thread....i came in here for the discussion precisely because i suspect that u guys are a little more engaged ...
this payment was set by a gov. official...by what criteria did he come to the original payment?
ill leave that there for all.
because since then other areas of s.w. have been cut.
there must have been some logic to the reckoning of what payment was needed.
whats changed to demand a cut?0 -
I was in a charity shop yesterday. They had boxes and boxes of immaculate communion shoes (worn only once, sure), and were selling communion dresses for €10.
Feck hundreds of euro; if someone really is in such dire straits that they can't buy a communion dress hand them €20 and point them to Oxfam.
I'm thinking that Lucy8080 is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land if she can't see that this payment is not just too high, but completely unnecessary in all but the most exceptional circumstances.
+ a million
I volunteered with the cancer society in Cork and they had tonnes of communion dresses ranging anywhere from €10 - €80 (the more expensive ones came with gloves, bag, veil/tiara, cardigan/shawl etc). Very few of them were sold.
Right across the street is a shop that specialises in communion wear and people were practically queuing out the door there :rolleyes:0 -
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im off to bed...
but ill leave tonite with this..
a city guy in england got a 3 mill bonus this week..how many families would that cover for one years communion payment at 200 euro?
whats that got to do with ireland?
this week irish and italian bonds were being bought up again.
how do you think thats gonna work out?
irish taxpayers money is still subject to gambling on the markets. when the city wants to dump....u will pick up the cost...they will keep the profits.
in the meantime the guys at the bottom are venting their anger at the guys at the very bottom.
turn around...and start looking at who and what has u in this mess.0 -
seems ive touched a nerve. good.
Nope, what touches a nerve for me is the needless waste of taxpayers' money (bad enough when we thought we were wealthy, unforgiveable now) and the illegal subsidy of religious practise in violation of the Constitution.ill start with iguana...why is it condescending to try and get people to realise that there may be real poverty out there...families who actually need this payment?
You are confusing want and need. Need is putting food on the table and fuel in the fire.ur view of eighties ireland was not telling the real story.
I'm 40. I remember the 80s. Heck I remember the 70s. I remember the FF election ads promising that no-one would ever pay car tax again :rolleyes: Don't patronise me and people like me. You might think that boards is only full of under 30s that you can spoof but you'd be wrong.Life ain't always empty.
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im off to bed...
but ill leave tonite with this..
a city guy in england got a 3 mill bonus this week..how many families would that cover for one years communion payment at 200 euro?
whats that got to do with ireland?
this week irish and italian bonds were being bought up again.
how do you think thats gonna work out?
irish taxpayers money is still subject to gambling on the markets. when the city wants to dump....u will pick up the cost...they will keep the profits.
in the meantime the guys at the bottom are venting their anger at the guys at the very bottom.
turn around...and start looking at who and what has u in this mess.
That's all irrelevant. Either we balance our budget or we continue to borrow, we cannot continue to borrow at the rate we are now, even if we could find willing lenders. That has everything to do with our taxes and our spending, nothing to do with the banks.Life ain't always empty.
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ninja and dades,
ninja...ill try and reply to u tomo.
dades im gonna make u housekeeper here as u have kids.
26 euros for a dress. ill agree.
carry on from there for a family of two adults and two children.
what u would give them to retain their dignity ...and with a little generousity of spirit for a communion weekend.
just to see where we meet.0 -
If you want generosity of spirit, hold a charity collection. Doesn't your church do two of them at each mass?
Paying tax is not a voluntary act. If I refused to pay tax (fat chance, on PAYE) I can go to jail. So forgive me if I become less than pleased when I see money forcibly taken used for fripperies and vote-buying. There are many fripperies upon which taxation is wasted, true, but this is the one under discussion here and the argument 'but money is wasted on x and y' doesn't excuse the wasting of money on 'z'.Life ain't always empty.
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I have to say I find this thread pretty disgusting, and you can sum it up
with the last two posts:
Humane question:what u would give them to retain their dignity ...and with a little generousity of spirit for a communion weekend.
Response:If you want generosity of spirit, hold a charity collection. Doesn't your church do two of them at each mass?
Basically, fcuk the poorer sectors of society. Notice how everybody just
implicitly assumes religion has anything to do with this issue. I know it'll
be tough, but if you think it through for 5 seconds beyond the neon
flashing lights shone by the word "communion" you'll notice how religion
has nothing to do with this, it's a fcuking social question we're dealing
with. If logic has anything to do with this question we can only claim
religion has anything to do with this issue if the state was funding
communion rituals for all participants involved. Whether you like it or not
that is a fact, which generalizes the question to one in which we question
all possible social issues and the funding of such, which itself implies some
shockingly obvious questions that are immediately obvious to anyone
not trying to use the coincidental relationship religion has with this issue
as a means to take from poorer sectors of society. These questions can
hardly be honestly addressed judging by the 7 pages of posts thus far
unless people bother to go beyond the surface. But that doesn't matter,
if religion is in any way, shape or form associated with something it's
implicitly bad (hence why it's posted in here).It is essentially no different than providing money to a classic car
enthusiast because an exhibition is coming up.
Except for the fact that we're talking about poorer families displaying
their poverty for everybody to see & creating fcuking hell in the minds
of parents & children alike, assuming they haven't spent grocery money
on this fcuking stuff to keep up appearances, but what does that matter?
Shure no, this is irrelevant because there are like three posters in this
thread who turned out fine in the end :rolleyes:challengemaster wrote: »It may be an issue, but there's no reason why the taxpayer should foot the bill for someone elses religious beliefs.
There are plenty of reasons, & I'm pretty sure everybody knows them.
Compassion? Choice? The simultaneous pandering for votes while
providing something people want?Paying tax is not a voluntary act. If I refused to pay tax (fat chance, on PAYE) I can go to jail. So forgive me if I become less than pleased when I see money forcibly taken used for fripperies and vote-buying. There are many fripperies upon which taxation is wasted, true, but this is the one under discussion here and the argument 'but money is wasted on x and y' doesn't excuse the wasting of money on 'z'.
You could read an argument like this (notice how it isn't an argument) in
the many anti-immigrant threads in the politics section. Just thought I'd
point that out since we're just venting frustration at easy targets like
poor parents and "'professional' social welfare claimants"....
How little an understanding we have of mental health if people consider
this to be an issue of nothing but "luxuries" & "fripperies". I think it's
pathetic to target this issue in such a mindnumbingly stupid & heartless
way as taking money from poorer people, because that's the best
possible thing you can hope to achieve in as ridiculous a quest as this is.Your ability to miss the point is truly astounding sometimes.
Indeed...HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But seriously if you can't see that 3 million of tax payers' money would not be better spent on life saving hospital equipment or treatments then I really ahve nothing more to say to you.
Why give parents any back to school allowances either when we could be
saving lives with that money? Which do you value, lives or books? :rolleyes:
This is the level of cogency of your argument, should I call your post
idiotic? Only if 50 people are on my side do I get away with it apparently...Bannasidhe wrote: »It may be a special day for the child - but so will their debs ball and wedding - should the State pay for those too and maybe a nice dress for the mother of the bride?
Maybe? Why not? Maybe the smart thing to do would be to campaign for
this as a means to pressure the gov. to force uniforms for communions?Rev Hellfire wrote: »So we should pay for their pride, sorry I don't buy that. As for the Christmas bonus I'm happy to see that scam ended. Beggars can't be choosers.MagicMarker wrote: »Again, why aren't the parents able to save 50-100 in the 7 years leading up to the communion?Bookworm85 wrote: »Yes it is lovely for kids to get dolled up, receive presents/cash, have a nice meal or day out with their families and friends. But these activities should be funded by their parents, godparents, relatives, friends etc. NOT BY THE IRISH TAXPAYER!Bookworm85 wrote: »I don't know if you saw my first post on this thread, but I was unemployed for about 18 months and got a job not long before Christmas. I managed to go to 3 weddings while I was unemployed, I did this by being careful with what little money I had. If I can save enough money to go to 3 weddings (each with less than 6 months notice), then catholic parents with 6/7/8 years notice can easily save up enough for a communion dress.Only the 'professional' SW claimants would have been aware of this payment up until now.
Jesus christ, I don't know how people can let posts like these slide...0 -
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sponsoredwalk wrote: »How little an understanding we have of mental health if people consider
this to be an issue of nothing but "luxuries" & "fripperies". I think it's
pathetic to target this issue in such a mindnumbingly stupid & heartless
way as taking money from poorer people, because that's the best
possible thing you can hope to achieve in as ridiculous a quest as this is.
How dare you belittle the GENUINE mental health issues that some people have by suggesting that members of ONE RELIGION in this country not getting money for what is essentially a day out (which could still happen without, or with only a small fraction of money)
If you're saying actual, genuine poverty is a factor in mental health issues (which I can agree with), can you not see where our tax money would be better spent? On mental health services, for instance???? If, as you suggest someone has a mental health issue due to not being able to afford a communion dress, surely supplying them with the cash for this issue won't solve their issues, the issue will just arise again the next time they can't afford a luxury.
Many posters have pointed out that you can buy dresses for little money). What about the mental health of Jewish children who's parent's can't afford to do Bar Mitzvah, for example? Funny how you never hear any hand wringing about that :rolleyes:
I find it completely ironic that this commercialism and keeping up with the Joneses is so far removed from actual Christianity/Catholicism that it's a joke.sponsoredwalk wrote: »Why give parents any back to school allowances either when we could be
saving lives with that money? Which do you value, lives or books? :rolleyes:
.
COME ON! Really? You equate the back to school allowance, for books and other educational requirements for ALL children, irrelevant of class or creed, to be the same as the State paying for frilly dresses and a day out for some members of society, yet conveniently forgetting about the religious and cultural traditions of other members of the community? Or the fact that the money is being spent on something totally unnecessary, and that the need for could be completely removed if just the church/schools got the finger out and made kids have communion in those robe things!0 -
sponsoredwalk wrote: »HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But seriously if you can't see that 3 million of tax payers' money would not be better spent on life saving hospital equipment or treatments then I really ahve nothing more to say to you.
Why give parents any back to school allowances either when we could be
saving lives with that money? Which do you value, lives or books? :rolleyes:
This is the level of cogency of your argument, should I call your post
idiotic? Only if 50 people are on my side do I get away with it apparently...
Oh, come on SW - books for education and dresses for communion don't even compare, and you know it. That's a blatantly false analogy.
For the record, the money would be better spent on books for schools too, or even an increase in the dole.Bannasidhe wrote: »It may be a special day for the child - but so will their debs ball and wedding - should the State pay for those too and maybe a nice dress for the mother of the bride?
Maybe? Why not? Maybe the smart thing to do would be to campaign for
this as a means to pressure the gov. to force uniforms for communions?
I agree with your second point, but as to "why not?" - we're in the middle of a recession!
And if this is not a religious thing, but a social one (as you claim), can I have 200 quid to go down the pub tonight? I promise I'll enjoy it.
Do you deny that a perfect communion dress can be got new or once-worn for €25?0 -
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I have no idea what you're trying to 'get into our heads'. I was on the dole recently, so I know that while saving is not impossible it's not easy either; I managed to put away a fiver a week, and had I needed to would have been able to buy an Oxfam communion dress for my fictional daughter.a post by kylith...which got thanks ..ended thus...
" unescessary in all but the most exceptional circumstances".
im say that families are in those exceptional circumstances now.
and being able to save on the dole is not an exceptional circumstance. ...so spare me that.
being able to save a deposit for a house...is not an exceptional circumstance....so spare me that.
im gonna suppose that those who thanked that post are now waking up a little to what im trying to get into ur heads.
Perhaps you can explain why people were being given €200 for a dress that can be bought for €20, and how such a gross overpayment can be justified.
As others have said; exceptional circumstances are when you can't afford to feed your children, or can't afford fuel for the fire, or can't afford to pay for medical treatment. Wanting a posh frock for your child is not an exceptional circumstance.
As has been said numerous times; there are many other options than buying a costly dress on the taxpayer's dime.
1) Buy a cheaper white dress from Pennys
2) Buy a second-hand dress from a charity shop
3) Borrow a dress from someone else
After I made my communion my mother packed up my dress (which she bought without handouts despite raising 6 children on one salary), shoes, veil, gloves etc and passed them on to a less fortunate friend of hers whose daughter was making hers the next year. Presumably she then passed it to someone else. My brother has 3 daughters. When it came time for the eldest's communion a classic style was purchased. When the second child's communion came round the dress was hemmed and she wore that. She pouted a bit but was simply told 'We can't afford to buy a new dress for each of ye'.
There are many options other than making the taxpayer pay for your child's day out.0 -
This may make me sound callous, but I have little sympathy for someone who would do without food for the sake of keeping up appearances.sponsoredwalk wrote: »Except for the fact that we're talking about poorer families displaying
their poverty for everybody to see & creating fcuking hell in the minds
of parents & children alike, assuming they haven't spent grocery money
on this fcuking stuff to keep up appearances, but what does that matter?
Shure no, this is irrelevant because there are like three posters in this
thread who turned out fine in the end :rolleyes:
The best piece of advice I was ever given is that sometimes you have to swallow your pride so that your family can swallow bread. There is no shame in saying 'I can't afford it', and anyone who would think less of you for having it is beneath contempt.0 -
seems ive touched a nerve. good.
ill start with iguana...why is it condescending to try and get people to realise that there may be real poverty out there...families who actually need this payment?
ur view of eighties ireland was not telling the real story.
people like ur parents who had jobs and options...even if it meant budgeting really hard....did not look down on those out of work and with no options.
u see,...those near the bottom were not kicking those at the bottom in the eighties.
as u were only 7 u could not know. this thread might go somewhere useful now that some of u are engaged and a little upset.
might be a positive thing.
maybe ill be given a chance to expand. and open some eyes.
Can you read? I have worked with the type of poverty that nobody in this country has known since the 1840s. So unless you are coming up for a bicentennial birthday I suggest once again that you don't dare to condescend to me.
I have worked with the poor here and the poor abroad and while I can say without doubt that there are poor people in Europe who most certainly do need help, poverty here comes nowhere near poverty in 'developing' regions such as east Africa. And the last thing anyone in genuine poverty gives the slightest damn about is fancy white frocks.0 -
This may make me sound callous, but I have little sympathy for someone who would do without food for the sake of keeping up appearances.
You're right, it does.... Equally, fcuk those mothers who were whoring
themselves out.The best piece of advice I was ever given is that sometimes you have to swallow your pride so that your family can swallow bread. There is no shame in saying 'I can't afford it', and anyone who would think less of you for having it is beneath contempt.
Equally, those parents can take your advice & send their children to
school in potato sacks to save money on buying/washing children's clothes
- anyone who thinks less of them or their children is beneath contempt.
In fact, to all those idiot parents who didn't spend 7 years putting away a
penny a day for the communion need only put their child in a potato sack
for the amount of weeks it takes to buy 150 worth of electricity &
washing-powder etc... and anybody judging them for their ingenuity is
beneath contempt for they have swallowed their pride & declaratively
stated, for all to see, that "I can't afford it".
In fact, here's a bold idea - why don't we let those children do light
janitorial work as well, this would help lessen the amount of time they
deserve to spend in a potato sack.krankykitty wrote: »How dare you belittle the GENUINE mental health issues that some people have by suggesting that members of ONE RELIGION in this country not getting money for what is essentially a day out (which could still happen without, or with only a small fraction of money)
More evidence of:sponsoredwalk wrote: »Notice how everybody just
implicitly assumes religion has anything to do with this issue. I know it'll
be tough, but if you think it through for 5 seconds beyond the neon
flashing lights shone by the word "communion" you'll notice how religion
has nothing to do with this, it's a fcuking social question we're dealing
with. If logic has anything to do with this question we can only claim
religion has anything to do with this issue if the state was funding
communion rituals for all participants involved. Whether you like it or not
that is a fact, which generalizes the question to one in which we question
all possible social issues and the funding of such, which itself implies some
shockingly obvious questions that are immediately obvious to anyone
not trying to use the coincidental relationship religion has with this issue
as a means to take from poorer sectors of society. These questions can
hardly be honestly addressed judging by the 7 pages of posts thus far
unless people bother to go beyond the surface. But that doesn't matter,
if religion is in any way, shape or form associated with something it's
implicitly bad (hence why it's posted in here).krankykitty wrote: »If, as you suggest someone has a mental health issue due to not being able to afford a communion dress, surely supplying them with the cash for this issue won't solve their issues, the issue will just arise again the next time they can't afford a luxury.
I'm absolutely sure it does arise next time they can't afford a "luxury",
but I never claimed this was going to be a solution to all mental health
problems so I have no idea why you'd presume that's my argument.krankykitty wrote: »Many posters have pointed out that you can buy dresses for little money). What about the mental health of Jewish children who's parent's can't afford to do Bar Mitzvah, for example? Funny how you never hear any hand wringing about that :rolleyes:
Honestly this can be answered by referring to the very definition of
democracy. If you have some problem with that, take it up with the
concept of democracy.krankykitty wrote: »I find it completely ironic that this commercialism and keeping up with the Joneses is so far removed from actual Christianity/Catholicism that it's a joke.
One minute it's a religious issue,, the next it's just keeping up with the
Joneses, both scenario's completely ignore the fact that people want
this.krankykitty wrote: »COME ON! Really? You equate the back to school allowance, for books and other educational requirements for ALL children, irrelevant of class or creed, to be the same as the State paying for frilly dresses and a day out for some members of society, yet conveniently forgetting about the religious and cultural traditions of other members of the community? Or the fact that the money is being spent on something totally unnecessary, and that the need for could be completely removed if just the church/schools got the finger out and made kids have communion in those robe things!
No, that's not what I did at all, go back and read what I wrote &
what I was responding to...krankykitty wrote: »If you're saying actual, genuine poverty is a factor in mental health issues (which I can agree with), can you not see where our tax money would be better spent? On mental health services, for instance????
Again, this is answered by the response you misunderstood. In fact
it's explained in the next response just to save time...The Mad Hatter wrote: »Oh, come on SW - books for education and dresses for communion don't even compare, and you know it. That's a blatantly false analogy.
For the record, the money would be better spent on books for schools too, or even an increase in the dole.
There's nothing wrong with the analogy if you read in the context of
what I was responding to, & in fact I should of gone further. If someone
is going to pull up arguments about how money can be spent better
elsewhere you can easily apply that argument to other areas where
money could be better spent. There isn't a single thing wrong with that.
However it highlights the absurdity of the argument (hence why I did it).
But you completely ignore what I said & instead virtually repeat the
argument I responded to. So now I think you need to answer that claim
too, what do you think is more valuable? Books for children or saving
lives? Notice how what I'm saying has nothing to do with dresses for
communions, it's just focusing on the logic of the argument. This
pathetic argument can be used to take money away from anything
if people are happy with surface arguments like this.The Mad Hatter wrote: »And if this is not a religious thing, but a social one (as you claim), can I have 200 quid to go down the pub tonight? I promise I'll enjoy it.
I'm fully in favour of that, in fact all you need to do is to convince
society that they should do that for you & I'm sure it'll be done.The Mad Hatter wrote: »Do you deny that a perfect communion dress can be got new or once-worn for €25?
Why would I?
I'd just like to say how little the latest posts (and others of course) care
about the concept of democracy. Whether I like it or not, money is given
to what I consider to be a total waste of money every single day - why?
That's such a simple question I see not one poster even considered. All
you have to do is switch off the confirmation bias & read the latest posts
critically to find out what that is...
In fact I'll just say it - people want it... I don't want to give any money
to fishermen in the east to slaughter fish but - shock - people want it
& that's one of those horrendous parts of being in a democracy, trying
to, in some form, provide things for people they want because *they
feel* they need them (regardless of the declarative statements of fact
we're privy to in this thread). You may not like that, but again that is
your own hatred of the concept of democracy, not the fault of those
enemies from within known as children wanting a nice communion day.
They are just luxuries, and as such we must never give luxuries to
anybody. In fact just think how much money we could devote to
mental health services if we deducted the price of that luxury known
as toilet paper from the social welfare :eek::eek:0 -
SW, I have to ask, what the fuck are you talking about? What has mental health issues or school books got to do with this?
Should we give money to people so they can buy an xbox because they want it? Because buying them an xbox is just as utterly retarded as buying them a dress.0 -
MagicMarker wrote: »SW, I have to ask, what the fuck are you talking about? What has mental health issues or school books got to do with this?
Mental health issues:sponsoredwalk wrote: »we're talking about poorer families displaying their poverty for everybody to see & creating fcuking hell in the minds of parents & children alike,
assuming they haven't spent grocery money on this fcuking stuff to keep
up appearances,
No doubt you're aware of concepts like social status. No doubt you're
aware of how important that is to as social a species as humans. No
doubt you are aware of how this relates to those mothers whoring
themselves out to fund this day. I mean do you really just have no
clue what I'm talking about?
As for school books, I think you need to actually read the context of
where I mention school books (though I think you knew that).MagicMarker wrote: »Should we give money to people so they can buy an xbox because they want it? Because buying them an xbox is just as utterly retarded as buying them a dress.
As fascinating as your [subjective] opinion of your own strawman is,
if people were to request this be done I'm sure it would be done
(democracy 101).0 -
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sponsoredwalk wrote: »Mental health issues:
No doubt you're aware of concepts like social status. No doubt you're
aware of how important that is to as social a species as humans. No
doubt you are aware of how this relates to those mothers whoring
themselves out to fund this day. I mean do you really just have no
clue what I'm talking about?
As for school books, I think you need to actually read the context of
where I mention school books (though I think you knew that).
As fascinating as your [subjective] opinion of your own strawman is,
if people were to request this be done I'm sure it would be done
(democracy 101).
Right, so we should give people money for communion day so the child doesn't develop mental health issues? Got it.
Also, no matter where I look I see people showing outrage that such an allowance even exists, shouldn't the the allowance be cut altogether? You know, democracy 101?0
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