State spending €3million on communion rituals

magicbastarder

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Please name the public organisation. You're not breaching any confidentiality, as the staffing of public bodies is in the public domain.

dublin city council.

qrrgprgua

mikemac wrote: »

Wearing the school uniform would solve a lot of this.

I don't know why every school board of management doesn't start that rule.
Maybe some parents are objecting.

EXACTLY!!!!! While I am Catholic, I 100% think that the focus is turned on stupid secondary issues like "the dress"... and to add insult to it all the state is funding those who can't afford the over the top dress.

School uniform is absolutely fine.

In Poland they use a simple white rob that the Church supplies. All kids the same, no family expense.

Hotblack Desiato

SerialComplaint wrote: »

You need to bring people with you in politics. There is no point in doing the right thing if you get so many people's backs up that you lose control of your agenda. At a guess, the significant cutback was test, and the complete elimination will be a year or two down the line.

From what I can see (meatspace not just boards ) the Irish public are strongly in favour of the immediate elimination of this payment.

Harney privatised anything she could, and forced the HSE and public bodies to spend a fortune on preparing for her pet project - co-location. She lowered taxes on the rich and bought in a wide variety of tax breaks for the wealthy. The Irish peopl/i]e kicked her out.

That is just a load of propaganda.
Harney didn't privatise anything. We still have an economy with a heavy state-owned element (even ignoring the banks) the only real privatisation was Eircom and that was Mammy O'Rourke's baby.
Co-location was a great idea in principle. There is no reason why public hospital beds should be taken up by private patients - let them go to a private hospital and free up public beds for public patients. That in essence is all that co-location was, but the leftist propaganda against it painted it as something else entirely. It was very interesting to hear Joe Higgins and Mary Lou giving out about VHI increases the other day...

Basically MH was demonised because she didn't buy into the soft-left consensus, she was a woman, and she was somewhat overweight.

Lucy8080

mr. p,

i dont think people are suggesting cancelling communion.

if ya dont like my attempts to connect communion day with economic activity...let me hand you over to ninja...

who rightly pointed out...that in straightened times we are in...most people were not aware of this payment.

now they are.

even if the entitlement is halved....i bet the claims quadruple.

most athiests down the pub....if they have a little 7 yr old daughter coming up for communion this yr...are going to kit her out.

but now...those who were saving...have just realised an entitlment they were unaware of.

i hope every family claims it.

a gov. department going for 7 yr olds ...for publicity purposes ...i hope it backfires

Hotblack Desiato

Lucy8080 wrote: »

most athiests down the pub....if they have a little 7 yr old daughter coming up for communion this yr...are going to kit her out.

Explain to me why an atheist would allow their child take part in a religious ritual?

Lucy8080

grrg,

i hope as a polish person ur experience of ireland is positive.

i find the polish an addition to this country.

but this is ireland...i want to take the catholic church out of this discussion...and put it on a cultural footing...

we have been doing the white dress thing for 7 yr old irish girls for generations. even before the celtic tiger arose and disappeared.

im sure even before the celtic tiger there was this payment for families who were struggling...during the celtic tiger nobody gave a toss .....and now ...we want to bitch about communion dresses and a little fund that always existed for irish families.

in other countries families make communion within their parish....in ireland its a classmate thing. we do it with the class.

i think the times are changing...and the custom may go out of the classroom ...but while 7 yr old are making their communion with clasmates...as their parent and grandparents did...that social pressure should be considered by the state.

like it always has been.

its a hard pressure on a parent in these times we are in.

if it was purely a parish thing...the parent could wait and save.

Oracle

About Dublin City Council and the HR that is surprising, although HR do more than just hire people. The department does sound very over-staffed, maybe some could be re-deployed elsewhere.

Lucy8080

god love all here who think ur gonna get 50 nurses .

lol.

Lucy8080

galvasean,

but it is nice galvasean. little white dresses in the may sunshine. you auld curmudgen.

of course ..we should strip em all...and fund the guards and hospitals...

we will all live to one hundred in a safe and peaceful ireland .

i dunno how we didnt spot the enemy within before...in their lil white dresses and communion suits.

time to man the g.p.o. again...next communion day.

Sarky

Your ability to miss the point is truly astounding sometimes.

Lucy8080

ninja,
you asked me to explain why an athiest would allow their child to take part in communion?

get real. some of them are married (the wife).. some of them have parents and grandparents...and feel its not worth the hassle. some of them are just easy going and suspect their kids will not care much for religion as they grow...and will fill em in as they age.

and there are many more reasons....

but as i have suggested time and time again....there is a cultural aspect to the communion day...

and even athiests can be easy osey about it.

it doesnt make em hippocrites...no more than if they like the sound christmas carol in december.


and ur burying ur head in the sand if u think there is not this dichotomy amongst athiests and the culture they grew up in.

they dont throw everything out. some have a balance in their outlook on life.

Lucy8080

whats the point sarky?

ur ability for black and white scenarios / im right ur wrong...

i find that astounding.

maybe u miss the point sometimes my friend.

SerialComplaint

magicbastarder wrote: »

50, possibly.
i know of a single public organisation - and not the largest one by any stretch - which has according to my source, 39 people employed in the recruitment section in HR. they haven't hired anyone in about three years.

magicbastarder wrote: »

dublin city council.

The staffing of the DCC's HR dept can be found at Page 40 of http://www.dublincity.ie/p20/DCCServices.pdf There is nothing near to 39 people in the entire HR dept. There is nobody in the HR dept looking after recruitment. Don't believe everything you hear in the pub.

ninja900 wrote: »

From what I can see (meatspace not just boards ) the Irish public are strongly in favour of the immediate elimination of this payment.

Right, so you see how that worked - they've brought people with them, and set up for the complete elimination of the payment next time round.

ninja900 wrote: »

That is just a load of propaganda.
Harney didn't privatise anything. We still have an economy with a heavy state-owned element (even ignoring the banks) the only real privatisation was Eircom and that was Mammy O'Rourke's baby.
Co-location was a great idea in principle. There is no reason why public hospital beds should be taken up by private patients - let them go to a private hospital and free up public beds for public patients. That in essence is all that co-location was, but the leftist propaganda against it painted it as something else entirely. It was very interesting to hear Joe Higgins and Mary Lou giving out about VHI increases the other day...
.

Nice to see we can agree on oone thing - there is indeed no reason why public hospital beds should be taken up by private patients. So why did Harney and McCreevy create special tax breaks for private hospitals, private nursing homes, private sports clinics? Let private medical services stand on its own two feet and not be subsidised by the State.

Harney inflated the budget of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, which made sure that consultants were paid twice for treating the same patient - first as a public patient, and then as a private patient. Harney created the HSE, the dysfunctional mammoth organisation that has screwed up management of our health services for a generation. Harney created HIQA, which then conveniently gave their PR contract to Harney's husband's firm - coincidence I'm sure. I guess he was running out of public funds as his term as Chairperson of FAS (appointed by Harney just months before their marriage) was running out.

ninja900 wrote: »

Basically MH was demonised because she didn't buy into the soft-left consensus, she was a woman, and she was somewhat overweight.

Harney was demonised because she had the blood of Susie Long and others who died waiting for services in Harney's dysfunctional public health system on her hands.

Galvasean

Lucy8080 wrote: »

galvasean,

but it is nice galvasean. little white dresses in the may sunshine. you auld curmudgen.

of course ..we should strip em all...and fund the guards and hospitals...

we will all live to one hundred in a safe and peaceful ireland .

i dunno how we didnt spot the enemy within before...in their lil white dresses and communion suits.

time to man the g.p.o. again...next communion day.

You posts are growing more and more idiotic. There is simply no way to sugarcoat it at this point.

number10a

Not sure if I would be taking this off-topic by saying this, but I love being the bearer of good news.

I'm almost qualified as a primary school teacher at this stage, and going through the religious education part of the training, I was told by someone who would be close to Diarmuid Martin that the plan is that within the next ten years to take communion and confirmation preparation out of the classroom on a phased basis (à la moving communion from 1st to 2nd class) and into something like Sunday school. Apparently it is being piloted in three parishes in the Dublin commuter belt already and it is seriously reducing the number of cultural Catholics taking part because Mass attendance is monitored etc. Dress code is also an issue that is being tackled with the school uniform being the default choice for the ocassion.

So the sooner this day comes, the better.

Now, I'll let ye get back on topic.

Gurgle

number10a wrote: »

the plan is that within the next ten years to take communion and confirmation preparation out of the classroom on a phased basis (à la moving communion from 1st to 2nd class) and into something like Sunday school.

Oh please let this be true.

magicbastarder

SerialComplaint wrote: »

The staffing of the DCC's HR dept can be found at Page 40 of http://www.dublincity.ie/p20/DCCServices.pdf There is nothing near to 39 people in the entire HR dept. There is nobody in the HR dept looking after recruitment. Don't believe everything you hear in the pub.

fair cop, i checked and it turns out i misunderstood my source, who said they understand HR has 39 in total; i thought they'd said 39 in recruitment.

Hotblack Desiato

Lucy8080 wrote: »

get real. some of them are married (the wife).. some of them have parents and grandparents...and feel its not worth the hassle. some of them are just easy going and suspect their kids will not care much for religion as they grow...and will fill em in as they age.

Either you have a principle, or you don't. Few religious people wouldn't let their kid take part in ceremonies that admit them to a different religion, why would atheists be any different?

but as i have suggested time and time again....there is a cultural aspect to the communion day...

and even athiests can be easy osey about it.

it doesnt make em hippocrites...no more than if they like the sound christmas carol in december.

It absolutely is hypocrisy to take part in a religious ceremony you don't believe in, or make your kids take part in one you don't believe in. This is widespread though, a lot of parents and godparents go to baptisms and make promises about the kid's religious upbringing they have no intention of keeping. These are cultural catholics who don't really believe, don't take part but aren't willing to be 'different' and not put their kids through the rituals. They are not people who identify as atheists.

A few atheists might be willing to go along with these ceremonies due to spousal/family pressure but they're unlikely to be happy about it.

and ur burying ur head in the sand if u think there is not this dichotomy amongst athiests and the culture they grew up in.

they dont throw everything out. some have a balance in their outlook on life.

There is absolutely a dichotomy, but among the cultural catholics, not people who actually identify as atheists.
Do you think atheists don't have a balanced outlook on life - I'm not sure what's that supposed to mean.

Hotblack Desiato

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Nice to see we can agree on oone thing - there is indeed no reason why public hospital beds should be taken up by private patients. So why did Harney and McCreevy create special tax breaks for private hospitals, private nursing homes, private sports clinics? Let private medical services stand on its own two feet and not be subsidised by the State.

There should have been no property tax breaks of any kind, especially when it became clear that a property boom was developing.

Harney inflated the budget of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, which made sure that consultants were paid twice for treating the same patient - first as a public patient, and then as a private patient.

Agreed but there was a lot of political pressure to get waiting lists down. The system of dual public/private practising is dysfunctional and should be eliminated. The new contract for consultants is better in that regard (but overpays them...)

Harney created the HSE, the dysfunctional mammoth organisation that has screwed up management of our health services for a generation.

The problem with the HSE was that it just absorbed the existing admin structures (and staff) of the old health boards and then tried to reform them. The old HB structures were completely dysfuntional and financially wasteful. The HSE should have been set up with a completely different structure and HB admin staff should have been invited to apply for jobs in the HSE (50% succeed and the other 50% let go) but under union pressure she guaranteed that no jobs would be eliminated.

Harney created HIQA, which then conveniently gave their PR contract to Harney's husband's firm - coincidence I'm sure. I guess he was running out of public funds as his term as Chairperson of FAS (appointed by Harney just months before their marriage) was running out.

That's simply not acceptable.

Harney was demonised because she had the blood of Susie Long and others who died waiting for services in Harney's dysfunctional public health system on her hands.

Yeah and people said the same things about Noonan and others before her. At least she tried to change a completely dysfunctional organisational structure, FG had talked about abolishing HBs for years but in govt they did nothing. She failed due to lack of backing in cabinet imho (think: Bertie populism) and the opposition of the health unions. The interests of patients and taxpayers come some way down the list compared to the vested interests of consultants, nurses, unions etc.

Her failure wasn't that she was right wing, it's that she wasn't nearly right wing enough and didn't have the backing in cabinet to make and enforce hard decisions.

SerialComplaint

ninja900 wrote: »

There should have been no property tax breaks of any kind, especially when it became clear that a property boom was developing.

Agreed but there was a lot of political pressure to get waiting lists down. The system of dual public/private practising is dysfunctional and should be eliminated. The new contract for consultants is better in that regard (but overpays them...)

The problem with the HSE was that it just absorbed the existing admin structures (and staff) of the old health boards and then tried to reform them. The old HB structures were completely dysfuntional and financially wasteful. The HSE should have been set up with a completely different structure and HB admin staff should have been invited to apply for jobs in the HSE (50% succeed and the other 50% let go) but under union pressure she guaranteed that no jobs would be eliminated.

That's simply not acceptable.

There is more than a touch of Life of Brian with much of your post. Remember the 'So apart from the aqueduct, health, education and law and order, what did the Romans ever do for us?' bits. So apart from Harney's monumental screw-ups and personal feathering of nests, she was really great - right?

ninja900 wrote: »

She failed due to lack of backing in cabinet imho (think: Bertie populism) and the opposition of the health unions. The interests of patients and taxpayers come some way down the list compared to the vested interests of consultants, nurses, unions etc.

Her failure wasn't that she was right wing, it's that she wasn't nearly right wing enough and didn't have the backing in cabinet to make and enforce hard decisions.

She failed because she was ideologically driven, not evidence driven. She implemented the policies that she really, really wanted to work. She should have looked at what worked elsewhere, and implemented that.

Lucy8080

galvasean,

its the idiot here. hi ya.

how much does the taxpayer save longterm by supporting ( relatively cheaply) community/family bonding activities ?

actually ,dont answer that...you will never see it show up on a balance sheet.

so try this one...

how much is the pull on ur taxes because of the break down of family/community relationships?

i bet its a lot more than 3 mill a year.

salivating like pavlovs dog because religion is taking a little bit of the tax pot...blinds people to the type of stuff that is in the taxpayers financial longterm interests.

count the pennies lads...and laugh at idiots like me.

Galvasean

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But seriously if you can't see that 3 million of tax payers' money would not be better spent on life saving hospital equipment or treatments then I really ahve nothing more to say to you.

Lucy8080

ninja,

maybe ya missed my point.

there are athiests ( maybe unprincipaled in your view) who will let their kids take part in communion ceremonies. and it may be for reasons as simple as the wife/hubby is not athiest...or the child wants to go along with its classmates. it would not be seen as a biggie or of any threat to their own feelings about religion. life is not black and white. there will be grey areas were common sense comes into play.


what you see as hypocrisy...is family life. i bet there are husband and wife teams out there where one is religious and the other not.

they compromise. if they are grown ups.

Galvasean

Actually the central point in your last post was a rather vague and unsubstantiated claim that if we don't pay for communion dresses with our tax money then the family unit will break down for some reason and cost us even more money.
I understand your point perfectly and I still find it ludicrous.

Lucy8080

yeah yeah...and if people cant see the idiocy of chipping away at customs that benefit the taxpayer to sums vastly exceedeing 3 million....the unseen benefits of supporting family/community traditions...

well have ur 3 million now....and watch the rising costs to the exchequer as we chip away at support for this kind of activity.....or maybe u will go knocking door to door like a good athiest and promote the richard dawkins culture of altruism.

if ya gain any followers...ill support the taxman giving u a little help out for a seven yr old "meme" day...in which the message is reinforced in the memory by dressing up...having a family meal...and visiting the relatives .

i wish ya luck getting the message out ....because it would benefit the tax payer in unseen longterm savings.

Lucy8080

ill tell ya how it helps sean.

"memes"..."mnemonics"...reinforcement of memory...whatever floats ur boat...

folks have dressed up for this day for decades. its a celebration...and it promotes family/community life.

the cost for an outfit for child and one parent ...is not a drain on our taxes ...its a worthwhile investment.

Bannasidhe

Could someone explain what Lucy8080 is talking about? I've looked and looked but still can't seem to find either logic or a point. How is putting a small girl in a an over priced dress which is inspired by a meringue good for the taxpayer?
Is there a cottage industry in the Blaskets making these confections and if we stop subsiding their purchase the local economy will go belly up?

Lucy8080

why do we dress up for rituals bannashide? any rituals?

why do we bother having them at all?

can you think of any reason in which the benefit outways the cost?

Bannasidhe

Lucy8080 wrote: »

why do we dress up for rituals bannashide? any rituals?

why do we bother having them at all?

can you think of any reason in which the benefit outways the cost?

Lucy - people can dress up for rituals all they like - but why does every body else have to help pay for the costumes? It is not a matter for the state to subsidise.

I go to a big Annual fancy dress party - up to 400 people attend, travelling to attend from across Europe. Much creativity, time and effort goes into the costumes. Yes - it is a ritual and a social bonding experience and I appreciate the importance of such events- the difference here is that the participants pay for themselves.

No one is saying ban the communion - in fact ironically the Atheists are arguing for the materialism to be taken out of what is a religious ritual and it be returned to basics.

As for it being an Irish tradition going back many years - so were Magdalene Laundries, Industrial schools and dictatorial clergy - Ireland has thankfully moved on from those dark days. Now it's time we cut the ties between church and State completely - from religious education in schools to paying for communion dresses.

Lucy8080

bannasidhe,

why is the communion outfit being portrayed as a materialistic expense?

why not as something to aid the long term memory of a day in which ...community/family/social/ and collective values are promoted?

never mind the cost of a communion dress versus a fancy dress outfit...one has a longterm benefit serving to remind of a day which we want to stand out in the memory...

the fancy dress party may be forgotten by morning and be replaced with a nightmarish hangover...and a trip to the chemist.

whenever rituals that are deemed to have social value are performed...humans have always known that monetary considerations are secondary.

school uniforms...i feel sorry for catholics...bowing to pressure not to look materialistic when the whole point of the special clothes was to reinforce a special day in the memory.