State spending €3million on communion rituals

BellySavalas

Do any of you people HAVE children? Have you any idea what it's like to be a single parent on SW and constantly have to explain to your child why they can't do everything that all the other kids are doing (dancing lessons, swimming lessons, music and other extra curriculars) because you just can't afford it? Or have your kids laughed at because they don't have the "right" shoes or clothes. My twins were told that they couldn't play with the other girls in school because they had the cheap version of the Lellie Kellie shoes out of Dunnes in JUNIOR INFANTS!!!!

And do any of you have any idea how the Community Welfare Officers treat you if god forbid you do need to go to them for help.... just how small and degraded they make you feel?

Your sanctimony knows no bounds

Bannasidhe

Lucy8080 wrote: »

bannasidhe,

why is the communion outfit being portrayed as a materialistic expense?

why not as something to aid the long term memory of a day in which ...community/family/social/ and collective values are promoted?

never mind the cost of a communion dress versus a fancy dress outfit...one has a longterm benefit serving to remind of a day which we want to stand out in the memory...

the fancy dress party may be forgotten by morning and be replaced with a nightmarish hangover...and a trip to the chemist.

whenever rituals that are deemed to have social value are performed...humans have always known that monetary considerations are secondary.

school uniforms...i feel sorry for catholics...bowing to pressure not to look materialistic when the whole point of the special clothes was to reinforce a special day in the memory.

Hundreds of euro being spent on a dress to be worn once is materialistic. Can a day only be special if hundreds of euro are spent on that dress? If that is the case it is not only materialistic - it's very, very sad.

My nieces both wore white robes to their communions and both now grown women remember it well. The choice of robe was not made for cost reason as their parents are very wealthy but because they made their communions in Switzerland where it is a religious ritual celebrated among members of the RCC not an excuse for a party and a bling fest as it has become in Ireland.
If people want the blingfest communions that's fine - pay for it yourself and do not expect the State to subsidise it.

Bannasidhe

BellySavalas wrote: »

Do any of you people HAVE children? Have you any idea what it's like to be a single parent on SW and constantly have to explain to your child why they can't do everything that all the other kids are doing (dancing lessons, swimming lessons, music and other extra curriculars) because you just can't afford it? Or have your kids laughed at because they don't have the "right" shoes or clothes. My twins were told that they couldn't play with the other girls in school because they had the cheap version of the Lellie Kellie shoes out of Dunnes in JUNIOR INFANTS!!!!

And do any of you have any idea how the Community Welfare Officers treat you if god forbid you do need to go to them for help.... just how small and degraded they make you feel?

Your sanctimony knows no bounds

Well I had to explain to my son that he was the only one in his class not making his communion as we are not Catholics and I was a single parent and an out lesbian. All great things to be in Ireland in the early 90s. Funny, he turned out ok.

Lucy8080

banasidhe,

hundreds of euros?

i was under the impression the allowance was just over two hundred (reduced now).

a parent and child in a struggling family might need and stretch that money to dress the child...and maybe something new for mum to wear because of the day. a little left over for fares out to see the relatives.

meantime,....the social,family,community,promotion of values...and good day in the kids life are something that outweigh that small allowance for those who needed it .

if those values are retained...the tax payer wins handsomely.

it is not materialistic to dress a child and parent for this one off positive occasion .

Hotblack Desiato

Lucy8080 wrote: »

there are athiests ( maybe unprincipaled in your view) who will let their kids take part in communion ceremonies. and it may be for reasons as simple as the wife/hubby is not athiest...

Yes but that's due to spousal/family pressure. If your spouse is a different religion from you, then sooner or later you are going to have to agree to disagree on some things. If you both believe (or not) the same, though, there's no reason to give in to grandparent or extended family pressure, and gives the kid a bad message imho.

or the child wants to go along with its classmates.

FFS, if the seven year old is calling the shots in the family, then there are bound to be big problems coming down the line.

it would not be seen as a biggie or of any threat to their own feelings about religion. life is not black and white. there will be grey areas were common sense comes into play.

It's not common sense to discard your principles without strong reasons. How many catholic parents would allow their child to take part in a ceremony inducting them into protestantism, judaeism or islam? Even if they 'didn't really mean it ' or 'just wanted a nice day out'.

Anyway all of this is off-topic. The topic is about the taxpayer funding the ceremony, not the ceremony itself.

Bannasidhe

Lucy8080 wrote: »

banasidhe,

hundreds of euros?

i was under the impression the allowance was just over two hundred (reduced now).

a parent and child in a struggling family might need and stretch that money to dress the child...and maybe something new for mum to wear because of the day. a little left over for fares out to see the relatives.

meantime,....the social,family,community,promotion of values...and good day in the kids life are something that outweigh that small allowance for those who needed it .

if those values are retained...the tax payer wins handsomely.

it is not materialistic to dress a child and parent for this one off positive occasion .

We are cutting back on SNAs so children with special need are being denied a proper education as is their constitutional right - but we can pay 2 million to buy dresses that are not necessary. How many SNAs would that pay for?
I know that I would prefer we pay to educate the child who needs extra help rather then pay for a child to wear an overpriced dress.

Why does the dress need to cost 200 euro? Would a 50 euro dress be so bad?

From the day a child is baptised the parents know the communion will be along in 7 years - save for it. A euro a week would give them 364 by the time the actual Communion happens. After all. it can hardly have come as a surprise this is going to happen so it can't be termed 'exceptional need'. Exceptional need is when the boiler breaks down, or the door falls off the oven not a pre-planned religious ritual.

It may be a special day for the child - but so will their debs ball and wedding - should the State pay for those too and maybe a nice dress for the mother of the bride?

What about the children who arn't Catholic? Do they get money for a special day out too?

Hotblack Desiato

SerialComplaint wrote: »

There is more than a touch of Life of Brian with much of your post. Remember the 'So apart from the aqueduct, health, education and law and order, what did the Romans ever do for us?' bits. So apart from Harney's monumental screw-ups and personal feathering of nests, she was really great - right?

I didn't say she was a great Minister for Health, just not the raving Thatcherite that the media loves to portray her as. Though at least she tried in Health, more than you can say for Cowen and many others who just regarded it as a political minefield to be exited rapidly at all costs.

Also, I gave several examples of policies she implemented which are centrist or actually left-wing.

If you're interested, lets start a thread in Politics and talk about it there, but the popular portrayal of her seems to me be driven itself by ideology, not hers but the ideology of the commentators.

BluntGuy

BellySavalas wrote: »

Do any of you people HAVE children

Many people here do, actually.

Have you any idea what it's like to be a single parent on SW and constantly have to explain to your child why they can't do everything that all the other kids are doing (dancing lessons, swimming lessons, music and other extra curriculars) because you just can't afford it?

I'm sure many people do. Everyone wants to give their kids nice things in life, but if you can't afford it that's just that.

Or have your kids laughed at because they don't have the "right" shoes or clothes. My twins were told that they couldn't play with the other girls in school because they had the cheap version of the Lellie Kellie shoes out of Dunnes in JUNIOR INFANTS!!!!

That's a problem that new shoes won't solve.

And do any of you have any idea how the Community Welfare Officers treat you if god forbid you do need to go to them for help.... just how small and degraded they make you feel?

A lot of the feeling of degradation comes from the feelings of inadequacy one feels, when circumstances force one who is accustomed to being independent and making their own way in the world, to seek help.

Your sanctimony knows no bounds

Do you think this payment is justified? And if so, on what basis?

Dades

Lucy8080 wrote: »

why is the communion outfit being portrayed as a materialistic expense?

why not as something to aid the long term memory of a day in which ...community/family/social/ and collective values are promoted?

It is the community's fault that this has become about a materialistic expense.
You can buy a dress for €26 or make one for half that, but apparently this isn't enough. Why is that?

And if the money isn't going on the dress, where is it going?

BellySavalas wrote: »

Do any of you people HAVE children?

I have two, both well used to Dunnes and TK Maxx clothes.

BellySavalas wrote: »

My twins were told that they couldn't play with the other girls in school because they had the cheap version of the Lellie Kellie shoes out of Dunnes in JUNIOR INFANTS!!!!

Are you suggesting if you had more money children wouldn't find another way to be horrible to each other? That isn't a financial problem that's a parenting problem.

eyescreamcone

This event does not come as a big surprise to parents.
For those who wish to play the communion game they know 7 years in advance that the big buiscuit eating/fake tan wearing/hotel dinner eating etc day is coming.

That is 364 weeks.
Might I suggest if a person thinks this fanciness is so important, that they might save 1 euro per week over this 7 year term and then blow it all on this rubbish.
But please don't come looking for a handout for this type of bulls**t

Newaglish

Lucy8080 wrote: »

banasidhe,

hundreds of euros?

i was under the impression the allowance was just over two hundred (reduced now).

a parent and child in a struggling family might need and stretch that money to dress the child...and maybe something new for mum to wear because of the day. a little left over for fares out to see the relatives.

meantime,....the social,family,community,promotion of values...and good day in the kids life are something that outweigh that small allowance for those who needed it .

if those values are retained...the tax payer wins handsomely.

it is not materialistic to dress a child and parent for this one off positive occasion .

iguana

BluntGuy wrote: »

Many people here do, actually.

And plenty of us were those kids who's parents couldn't afford things and we grew up fine too.

I posted this on the after hours thread but I'll stick it up here too; When I made my communion my dad was a poorly paid binman and the sole earner in our family. We lived in a corporation house in Moyross, an area so infamous that I don't think you need to be from Limerick to have heard of it but I've hyper-linked it anyway. A few months before my communion my youngest brother was born and a few months after my communion my other brother started school, two fairly expensive events. Coincidentally I made my communion on the 17th of May 1986, the same day as Self Aid, the country was not in a good place.

Yet not only did my parents cover the costs of my communion with money they had put away for it, five months later they bought a biggish house in a nice area with a 15% deposit. They did that by prioritising the things which were important to them, sacrificing most luxuries, saving every spare penny they had and never getting in any unnecessary debt. It's not always easy to plan ahead and save, especially on a low income but it is certainly possible and is the responsibility of all adults, especially parents.

BluntGuy

iguana wrote: »

And plenty of us were those kids who's parents couldn't afford things and we grew up fine too.

Indeed. Neither of my parents were well off, and we were grand.

Though I must say, I've never quite had an appreciation for what the "big deal" about communion day is. Ever since I've lived in Ireland it's felt like a lot of hassle - letters from the school asking you to do this, that and the other thing, and a large expense with money you don't really have to be throwing away. Personally, as much as it may be for the "kids", handing children large clumps of cash to be frivolous with doesn't strike me as a particularly good thing. A nice meal and a couple of euro to do something with their friends should suffice.

Paparazzo

Not one proper argument why the communion should be singled out for special payment. I didn't expect any.
How many people struggle to pay for a wedding? Should we all get special payments for big days?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We are cutting back on SNAs so children with special need are being denied a proper education as is their constitutional right - but we can pay 2 million to buy dresses that are not necessary. How many SNAs would that pay for?
I know that I would prefer we pay to educate the child who needs extra help rather then pay for a child to wear an overpriced dress.

Why does the dress need to cost 200 euro? Would a 50 euro dress be so bad?

From the day a child is baptised the parents know the communion will be along in 7 years - save for it. A euro a week would give them 364 by the time the actual Communion happens. After all. it can hardly have come as a surprise this is going to happen so it can't be termed 'exceptional need'. Exceptional need is when the boiler breaks down, or the door falls off the oven not a pre-planned religious ritual.

It may be a special day for the child - but so will their debs ball and wedding - should the State pay for those too and maybe a nice dress for the mother of the bride?

What about the children who arn't Catholic? Do they get money for a special day out too?

Brillianty put.
When was this brought in? I bet if you looked into it, Charlie Haughie brought it in just after his sister/daughter/wife bought a load of communion dress shops

robindch

Paparazzo wrote: »

Should we all get special payments for big days?

It's Darwin Day this Saturday -- where's me 200 euro?

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

It's Darwin Day this Saturday -- where's me 200 euro?

We need to see the dress first.

Dades

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We need to see the dress first.

I really think we don't...

Galvasean

Lucy8080 wrote: »

hundreds of euros?

i was under the impression the allowance was just over two hundred

Do you know the meaning of the word 'plural'?

Genghiz Cohen

Galvasean wrote: »

Do you know the meaning of the word 'plural'?

Hundred (1), couple hundred (2), few hundred (3), hundreds (4+).
where did ye learn ta english!?!

Bannasidhe

Galvasean wrote: »

Do you know the meaning of the word 'plural'?

lot, lots, many.

eire4

Zamboni wrote: »

http://newsfeed.eastcoast.fm/2011/07/holy-communions-cost-taxpayers-over-3.html

I heard this on the radio this morning and I think it is a fairly shocking use of tax payer money during a recession.
That works out at about €214 per person, probably used to buy an outfit that gets worn once and then dumped or resold with no return to the taxpayer.
Unbelievable.

I totally agree. This is a disgracful use of taxpayer funds. There should not be any tax payer money being paid during a recession or even during boom times to help with religious indoctrination. The state has no business helping fund any kind of religious indoctrination at all.

Galvasean

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

Hundred (1), couple hundred (2), few hundred (3), hundreds (4+).
where did ye learn ta english!?!

Dictionary.com defines 'hundreds' as:
"a number between 100 and 999, as in referring to an amount of money: Property loss was only in the hundreds of dollars."

What horrid can of worms have I opened? :eek:

Genghiz Cohen

Galvasean wrote: »

Dictionary.com defines 'hundreds' as:
"a number between 100 and 999, as in referring to an amount of money: Property loss was only in the hundreds of dollars."

What horrid can of worms have I opened? :eek:

/Argument from authority

Lucy8080

o.k.
ive had a quick look through and ill reply the week end ...earlier if poss.

any one older than 7 in 1986?

i was...a fair bit.....and i know why self aid was on....im starting to realise why u guys cant understand what poverty is...and is not.

i forgot how young some of you might be.

and why u dont understand...u study and philosophise...but u have never been there...have you?

some here think they have .... might have to do the last big recession before any of u lot can get ur head around the concept...

Ickle Magoo

When all else fails, resort to age-condescension by text speak...

Love it. :pac:

NB unsurprisingly, there are a number of posters here over the age of 26...myself included.

Delirium

people don't need to be born pre-1986 to experience poverty.

But what has that got to do with people suggesting that maybe state paying for a dress that will only be used once for a religious celebration mightn't be the best use of funds.

Sarky

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

When all else fails, resort to age-condescension by text speak...

Love it. :pac:

It's just adorable, isn't it?

Kids these days, live through one charity rock concert and they think they know all about pain...

Bannasidhe

Lucy8080 wrote: »

o.k.
ive had a quick look through and ill reply the week end ...earlier if poss.

any one older than 7 in 1986?

i was...a fair bit.....and i know why self aid was on....im starting to realise why u guys cant understand what poverty is...and is not.

i forgot how young some of you might be.

and why u dont understand...u study and philosophise...but u have never been there...have you?

some here think they have .... might have to do the last big recession before any of u lot can get ur head around the concept...

By 1986 I had a 2 year old son. I lived on an estate in the East End of London - my neighbours were a Chinese family who did home piece work - sewing shirts- for 10p per shirt. They worked 24/7.

I made my communion in 1971. I remember my Dad couldn't be there as he had recently emigrated to earn a better salary (a master baker he earned the princely sum of £10 a week as foreman of the largest bakery in Munster - a fortune. He then made donuts in Fitchburg MA and was paid $300 a week...) I have no idea what my dress looked like except it was white and my mother put a down payment on it every week for a year.

Some of us are old enough to remember queues for petrol and the Winter of Discontent. Some of us were forced to emigrate in the 80s when despite our fancy university degrees we couldn't get a job and lived in squats in London getting the grand total of £13 on the dole until we could find our feet .

Recessions - been there done that.:rolleyes:

kylith

I was in a charity shop yesterday. They had boxes and boxes of immaculate communion shoes (worn only once, sure), and were selling communion dresses for €10.

Feck hundreds of euro; if someone really is in such dire straits that they can't buy a communion dress hand them €20 and point them to Oxfam.

I'm thinking that Lucy8080 is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land if she can't see that this payment is not just too high, but completely unnecessary in all but the most exceptional circumstances.

iguana

Lucy8080 wrote: »

any one older than 7 in 1986?

i was...a fair bit.....and i know why self aid was on....im starting to realise why u guys cant understand what poverty is...and is not.

As the 7 year old in 1986 who has spent most of my career working for either Oxfam or Barnardos I can assure you that I know a damn sight more about poverty than you can imagine. Don't even try to condescend to me on this one, you haven't the slightest bloody clue.