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Should religion be taught in schools?

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    #662
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    steve06 wrote: »
    You shouldn't need centuries to persuade, it should be evident. It's still not evident, it's just deeply engraved and it's fading fast.
    As a matter of fact, the number of Christians is increasing rapidly worldwide, not "fading fast".


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    #663
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    steve06 wrote: »
    And how did you overcome any arguments... By saying 'because the bible says so'?

    Not quite. I assessed if the case that was being made was coherent with reality. I didn't think it was. I still don't think it is to this day, hence why I remain a Christian.

    You seem to be suggesting that I lack intelligence in some way, which is intriguing? What leads you to believe this about me apart from a latent prejudice that you might have?
    steve06 wrote: »
    You can't aim, but you will never know something that you can't see, doesn't talk to you, and that there is no proof of.

    That's a very simplistic way to view the world isn't it? All it takes to demolish that argument is to put a little uncertainty on the sense perception. How can you be sure that your senses aren't mistaken, and how can you be sure that the sense perception is the only valid faculty of the mind?

    Some philosophers even went as far as to deny the material as real for this reason.
    steve06 wrote: »
    Finding out about the truth of things involves looking into the science behind them. There is no logical science behind god so theists just say "god has no boundaries"

    Is science the only valid faculty to think about the world and even to derive knowledge from it? :)
    steve06 wrote: »
    It is actually profoundly logical. If someone said "there's an apple in this box but if you shake it, it will not move... You also can not see it or feel it or hear it" You'd tell them to go away... this is exactly like the god theory.

    In your opinion. It makes damned little sense to me. As I've mentioned here before my previous state could only be regarded as agnosticism. Agnosticism in so far as I couldn't be certain about anything else. I couldn't say that I really desired it, it was just a state I was in out of necessity.
    steve06 wrote: »
    When atheists hit a brick wall they look for other logical explanations, theists just look at the bible and find a passage to interpret a meaning for it.

    This isn't really true. I didn't just lap up what was said in the Bible. I spent a long time thinking about the logic behind it and how it related to reality. Christianity is a life-long decision, it isn't something that is to be taken lightly. It is the biggest decision I have and will make in any respect of my life. To think that someone should just dive unthinkingly into that is absurd.
    steve06 wrote: »
    Strange because there are no inspirational quotes there that I can see and also no reasons to believe in a god.

    Look harder :)
    steve06 wrote: »
    You're undermining your own argument now.

    Not at all. This is simply the case. Proof doesn't exist outside of the realm of mathematics, therefore it is fundamentally unreasonable to expect it outside of it. What we can do is present our case and present reasons for it on both sides of the argument and discuss it. That's the best we're ever going to get with this discussion. You know this and I know this, so let's not engage in pretense.
    steve06 wrote: »
    There's a million reasons to find an existence of god not evident. none to find him evident apart from what you make up to fit your situation.

    [...]
    steve06 wrote: »
    A positive argument for what? The non existence of a god? There's plenty but bible pushers keep referring back to illogical fairy tales and think that they overpower rationality.

    Typical empty rhetoric I'm afraid. :pac:

    As for "Bible pushers". I'm actually not here to push anything on anyone. Rather I'm here to take you and others to task on misconceptions you may or may not post on Christianity so as to provide a balanced argument here. Otherwise you'd all be on Boards.ie's defacto second Atheism and Agnosticism forum congratulating yourselves for how "eminently rational you're being" :pac:
    steve06 wrote: »
    You shouldn't need centuries to persuade, it should be evident. It's still not evident, it's just deeply engraved and it's fading fast.

    Who says that we did? - It's simple logic that if you have a few people you can only go into so many lands to preach the Gospel. What is astounding that even if a large amount of people rejected the Gospel in the first century that there were believers stretching right across the Mediterranean from Rome to Jerusalem including islands such as Crete, Malta and Cyprus.

    Today I can praise God for bringing His word right across the world from Los Angeles to Shanghai and that there will be 15,000 more people accepting Jesus as their Saviour in the world today.


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    #664
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    As a matter of fact, the number of Christians is increasing rapidly worldwide, not "fading fast".
    Well if you look at the census figures and the uproar over people marking their children as catholic or Christian it would seem otherwise.


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    #665
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    steve06 wrote: »
    Well if you look at the census figures and the uproar over people marking their children as catholic or Christian it would seem otherwise.

    Outside of the Western world in particular Christianity is growing. Worldwide Christianity is growing on a faster level than it has ever done before even if some in the Western world are losing their faith simultaneously.

    The Christian church in the West isn't going to die either. Indeed many churches are growing in the West also. Here's an interesting article for you.


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    #666
    dpe
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭dpe


    steve06 wrote: »
    Well if you look at the census figures and the uproar over people marking their children as catholic or Christian it would seem otherwise.

    Christianity is fading fast in Europe, but its growing rapidly in Asia (particularly China). Go figure.


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    #667
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    Not quite. I assessed if the case that was being made was coherent with reality. I didn't think it was. I still don't think it is to this day, hence why I remain a Christian.
    How can you possible conclude that anything in the bible or the existence of god is coherent with reality, but an atheist argument isn't?
    philologos wrote: »
    You seem to be suggesting that I lack intelligence in some way, which is intriguing? What leads you to believe this about me apart from a latent prejudice that you might have?
    I'm not suggesting that. But I still fail to see how someone who seems well educated and well written can believe in something without evidence of it.
    philologos wrote: »
    That's a very simplistic way to view the world isn't it? All it takes to demolish that argument is to put a little uncertainty on the sense perception. How can you be sure that your senses aren't mistaken, and how can you be sure that the sense perception is the only valid faculty of the mind?
    You are aiming to know 'god' by continually looking to the writings of people who never met him.
    philologos wrote: »
    Is science the only valid faculty to think about the world and even to derive knowledge from it? :)
    You derive knowledge from the world by living in it and studying it. You can not derive knowledge of god by studying it because there's nothing there to study.
    philologos wrote: »
    In your opinion. It makes damned little sense to me. As I've mentioned here before my previous state could only be regarded as agnosticism. Agnosticism in so far as I couldn't be certain about anything else. I couldn't say that I really desired it, it was just a state I was in out of necessity.
    But even now you can't be certain there is a god, so you'll spend your life searching. Why not just live your life and enjoy it.
    philologos wrote: »
    This isn't really true. I didn't just lap up what was said in the Bible. I spent a long time thinking about the logic behind it and how it related to reality. Christianity is a life-long decision, it isn't something that is to be taken lightly. It is the biggest decision I have and will make in any respect of my life. To think that someone should just dive unthinkingly into that is absurd.
    Isn't that the basis of this thread? Children in schools are diving unthinkingly into that is because it's forced up on them. They don't understand it and are told to accept it.
    philologos wrote: »
    I'm here to take you and others to task on misconceptions you may or may not post on Christianity so as to provide a balanced argument here.
    We don't have misconceptions, we don't believe in god. That's not a misconception, it's an opinion. We have ours, you have yours. The difference is that not believing in god is not a way of life, it's just an opinion we have and we get on with things. But believing in god is a way of life, it's eats up time and constantly makes you consider every move you make.
    philologos wrote: »
    Outside of the Western world in particular Christianity is growing. Worldwide Christianity is growing on a faster level than it has ever done before even if some in the Western world are losing their faith simultaneously.
    dpe wrote: »
    Christianity is fading fast in Europe, but its growing rapidly in Asia (particularly China). Go figure.

    Please... enter territories with a lower level of education and they'll believe anything. I'd almost bet that the areas this is growing is in slums and poverty stricken areas. Look at the bible brigade constantly over in Africa.


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    #668
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    steve06 wrote: »
    Well if you look at the census figures and the uproar over people marking their children as catholic or Christian it would seem otherwise.
    Ireland is a tiny country on the fringe of the Atlantic. Completely irrelevant to global demographics.
    dpe wrote: »
    Christianity is fading fast in Europe, but its growing rapidly in Asia (particularly China). Go figure.
    Go figure what? People are people whether they are European, Asian, American, Australian or African.
    steve06 wrote: »
    Please... enter territories with a lower level of education and they'll believe anything.
    A big source of this increase in Christians in the Middle East/Africa/Asia is conversions from other religions. In the Middle East for example the number of converts from Islam is increasing. Generally speaking it's the better educated who are more likely to change their religion as the less educated often live in areas where apostasy would mean death.


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    #669
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    steve06 wrote: »
    How can you possible conclude that anything in the bible or the existence of god is coherent with reality, but an atheist argument isn't?

    It's fundamentally reasonable that there was an ultimate cause for all that is, it's also fundamentally reasonable as far as I see it to believe that there was a Creator.
    steve06 wrote: »
    I'm not suggesting that. But I still fail to see how someone who seems well educated and well written can believe in something without evidence of it.
    I don't fit in the box you've created for me, I suspect God doesn't fit in the box you've created for Him either!

    I believe there are good reasons for Christianity being true, and when I get a bit more time I may go through my reasons systematically for you.
    steve06 wrote: »
    You are aiming to know 'god' by continually looking to the writings of people who never met him.

    This is your assumption.
    steve06 wrote: »
    You derive knowledge from the world by living in it and studying it. You can not derive knowledge of god by studying it because there's nothing there to study.

    Again, your assumption. You'll have to give some reasons for why you think this.
    steve06 wrote: »
    But even now you can't be certain there is a god, so you'll spend your life searching. Why not just live your life and enjoy it.

    I do live my life and enjoy it and thank God for it :). I wouldn't live any other way.
    steve06 wrote: »
    Isn't that the basis of this thread? Children in schools are diving unthinkingly into that is because it's forced up on them. They don't understand it and are told to accept it.

    You could say that. Honestly I don't believe any child commits to Christ fully when in school.

    I honestly believe that there is a time in everyones life when mum and dad can't help you make the big decisions in your life any more. You eventually have to decide for yourself about a lot of things. This decision is no different.
    steve06 wrote: »
    We don't have misconceptions, we don't believe in god. That's not a misconception, it's an opinion. We have ours, you have yours. The difference is that not believing in god is not a way of life, it's just an opinion we have and we get on with things. But believing in god is a way of life, it's eats up time and constantly makes you consider every move you make.

    You have misconceptions about what Christianity is. These misconceptions arise again and again. As such I'm here to provide a balance in the argument.

    You're right. My faith in God is a way of life. It inspires everything I put my hands to.

    Can I ask you though? Why do you care about my time in which I do what I enjoy? Why do you care that I think about how I act (I presume this is what you mean by every move)?


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    #670
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    Can I ask you though? Why do you care about my time in which I do what I enjoy? Why do you care that I think about how I act (I presume this is what you mean by every move)?

    Honestly I don't. I'm talking about Christians in general here, well the ones who always try to spread the word... Because while you care about it, many really don't and don't want to hear it. Life's too short for nonsense.


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    #671
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    steve06 wrote: »
    Honestly I don't. I'm talking about Christians in general here, well the ones who always try to spread the word... Because while you care about it, many really don't and don't want to hear it. Life's too short for nonsense.

    As simple as it is in real life as in the real world, if you really don't want to hear what I'm saying add me to your ignore list. I'd hope you wouldn't do that as we've had a good discussion, but it's up to you entirely.


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    #672
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    As simple as it is in real life as in the real world, if you really don't want to hear what I'm saying add me to your ignore list. I'd hope you wouldn't do that as we've had a good discussion, but it's up to you entirely.
    I wouldn't add someone to my ignore list because I have a different religious opinion.

    At the same time, nobody will ever make my believe in god unless he stands in front of me. And if that did happened, the first thing I'd do is kick him in the balls! :D


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    #673
    jumpguy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    As other people have said, I think religion should be taught in school from the point of view of understanding Islam, Catholicism, atheism, Hinduism, etc. And about the parts of the world they're thought, it could be called "Global Awareness Studies" (GAS) or something. Probably as a part of primary school history...

    Either that, or it's not taught at all. But bringing up all kids in school as Catholics and practicing communions and confirmations during school times is ridiculous in 2011. That's to be done by the parents at home, or the student when they're older and able to make the choice themselves.


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    #674
    dpe
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭dpe


    steve06 wrote: »
    Please... enter territories with a lower level of education and they'll believe anything. I'd almost bet that the areas this is growing is in slums and poverty stricken areas. Look at the bible brigade constantly over in Africa.

    I'm no advocate of Christianity, far, far from it, but unfortunately the pat, "its for the uneducated" argument doesn't stack up, certainly not in China anyway, where the fastest conversion is from the new middle class. Christianity is over-represented amongst businessmen. Personally I think its a fashion-thing; Christianity made next to no headway in China despite five hundred years of missionary work; the Chinese embrace capitalism (and pretty much unfettered capitalism at that) and suddenly Christianity (Capitalism's handy helper) starts to get traction. You'll get your reward in the next life mr overworked factory drone.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Go figure what? People are people whether they are European, Asian, American, Australian or African.

    See above, people don't suddenly have a Damascene moment, conversion is usually because they're being promised some kind of moonshine.

    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    A big source of this increase in Christians in the Middle East/Africa/Asia is conversions from other religions. In the Middle East for example the number of converts from Islam is increasing. Generally speaking it's the better educated who are more likely to change their religion as the less educated often live in areas where apostasy would mean death.

    I'd like to see you substiantiate that. The one area where Christianity isn't making headway is the islamic world, for exactly the reasons you mention in your last sentence. I remember being stunned by an article in a newspaper I was reading in Kuala Lumpur about there being agreement in Parliament to leave the death sentence off the penalty for apostacy for the time being. You can still go to prison for it though, as you can in pretty much every moslem country.


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    #675
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    dpe wrote: »
    I'd like to see you substiantiate that. The one area where Christianity isn't making headway is the islamic world, for exactly the reasons you mention in your last sentence. I remember being stunned by an article in a newspaper I was reading in Kuala Lumpur about there being agreement in Parliament to leave the death sentence off the penalty for apostacy for the time being. You can still go to prison for it though, as you can in pretty much every moslem country.
    I'll send you a PM.


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    #676
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    Sweatynutsack wrote: »
    Religion is the very issue that has the world the way it is today !!

    I suggest that, if you really believe that, you would be better keeping well away from it.


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    #677
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    flutterflye wrote: »

    I want the catholic church the fcuk out of Irish schools as much as everyone else.

    Speak for yourself. I want the Catholic Church to continue managing and controlling the schools which it owns. And I also want the Church of Ireland to continue managing and controlling the schools which it owns.
    And I want the GAA to continue managing and controlling the property which it owns. And I intend to continue controlling the property which I own.

    Please respect private property.


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    #678
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I think it is important for children to learn about different belief systems and cultures because it will help them to be more accepting and tolerant of people of different faiths and no faith.

    That may be your opinion and you are entitled to it. It is an opinion with which I totally disagree. I think that the only thing Catholic children should be taught about other religions is that they are heresies, their adherents will go to hell and that is a good thing because it will leave more room in heaven for us.


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    #679
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    Knight who says Meh wrote: »
    Not a lot really as the state still pays for the schools. If we can just get the vile gits to pay for what they did, which seems unlikely, we could save a fortune. But with the Catholic Church apologists which abound around these here parts they will get away with it.

    Why should Catholics lose their schools just because some religious have misbehaved? Why should any Catholic child have to submit to the authority of a non-Catholic teacher just because some priest had misbehaved?


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    #680
    Tehachapi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 273 ✭✭Tehachapi


    crucamim wrote: »
    their adherents will go to hell and that is a good thing because it will leave more room in heaven for us.

    Cool, that won't warp the childrens minds at all.


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    #681
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    crucamim wrote: »
    That may be your opinion and you are entitled to it. It is an opinion with which I totally disagree. I think that the only thing Catholic children should be taught about other religions is that they are heresies, their adherents will go to hell and that is a good thing because it will leave more room in heaven for us.

    jesus titty fuc*ing christ... and people wonder why these brain dead followers get so much much sh*t..


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    #682
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    crucamim wrote: »
    That may be your opinion and you are entitled to it. It is an opinion with which I totally disagree. I think that the only thing Catholic children should be taught about other religions is that they are heresies, their adherents will go to hell and that is a good thing because it will leave more room in heaven for us.
    Deary me. There's too much wrong there to find a place to start. This isn't what Christianity is about.


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    #683
    youngmagee
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭youngmagee


    crucamim wrote: »
    Speak for yourself. I want the Catholic Church to continue managing and controlling the schools which it owns. And I also want the Church of Ireland to continue managing and controlling the schools which it owns.
    And I want the GAA to continue managing and controlling the property which it owns. And I intend to continue controlling the property which I own.

    Please respect private property.

    If they are private property and want their own rules then they should be private schools. Any public system should be fair to all citizens.

    crucamim wrote: »
    That may be your opinion and you are entitled to it. It is an opinion with which I totally disagree. I think that the only thing Catholic children should be taught about other religions is that they are heresies, their adherents will go to hell and that is a good thing because it will leave more room in heaven for us.

    Not very Christian of you. what ever happened to live thy neighbour
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I think it is important for children to learn about different belief systems and cultures because it will help them to be more accepting and tolerant of people of different faiths and no faith.

    I agree.


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    #684
    Niles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭Niles


    crucamim wrote: »
    I think that the only thing Catholic children should be taught about other religions is that they are heresies, their adherents will go to hell and that is a good thing because it will leave more room in heaven for us.

    I was raised a Catholic and I don't agree with this; I remember being specifically taught that this was not what happened to non-Catholics when I was in school. Quite rightly too.


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    #685
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Deary me. There's too much wrong there to find a place to start. This isn't what Christianity is about.

    I am not a Christian, I am a Catholic.


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    #686
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    youngmagee wrote: »
    If they are private property and want their own rules then they should be private schools. Any public system should be fair to all citizens.

    It is not a public system. It is a Catholic system which receives taxpayer funding in return for providing a social service - educating the children of Catholics. Just as road contractors are paid for providing a social service ie. repairing roads.


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    #687
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    Tehachapi wrote: »
    Cool, that won't warp the childrens minds at all.

    How do you know?


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    #688
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    Niles wrote: »
    I was raised a Catholic and I don't agree with this; I remember being specifically taught that this was not what happened to non-Catholics when I was in school. Quite rightly too.

    Are you still a Catholic? If not, the reason might be that you were taught the wrong things about heretics.


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    #689
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Don't feed the troll. crucamim has been doing this over in the Atheism and Agnosticism sections and the Christianity section too.


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    #690
    CiaranMT
    Registered Users Posts: 4,092 ✭✭✭CiaranMT


    Ah phil, you're wrecking our fun :(


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    #691
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    crucamim wrote: »
    I am not a Christain, I am a Catholic.
    Not a "Christain" indeed.


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