Should religion be taught in schools?

AnneElizabeth · 02-07-2011 4:05am

flutterflye wrote: »

Still haven't seen any reasonable argument for why persuasive religious bias should continue to be legally impressed upon over 90% of Ireland's children.

Because their parents have the right to give them a religion. You can request for your child to be not taught it if you wish.

flutterflye · 02-07-2011 4:10am

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

You can request for your child to be not taught it if you wish.

Nope, you cannot, I'm afraid you're wrong there.
Well, I guess nobody can stop you requesting it, but it will not be granted in most cases.
Plenty of personal experience with this particular issue.

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Because their parents have the right to give them a religion.

Their parents can teach them, or they can attend classes out of hours.

Again...............

flutterflye wrote:

Still haven't seen any reasonable argument for why persuasive religious bias should continue to be legally impressed upon over 90% of Ireland's children.

pragmatic1 · 02-07-2011 4:16am

Yes. Theres a lot of good along with the bad. However, all major religions should be taught, not just one. And arguments from the non-religious side should be given equal time. That way kids can make up their own minds.

AnneElizabeth · 02-07-2011 4:17am

flutterflye wrote: »

Nope, you cannot, I'm afraid you're wrong there.
Well, I guess nobody can stop you requesting it, but it will not be granted in most cases.
Plenty of personal experience with this particular issue.

Oh really, the schools will say: Your child must learn this religion? I don't think so and unless you have proof (or this happened years ago), I don't think it's true.

flutterflye wrote: »

Their parents can teach them, or they can attend classes out of hours.

Why should they when they attend a religious school?

And AGAIN I will say: who are you to say that all those parents don't want their children to be taught the religion? It's none of your business which religion other people choose. It is not being forced on anyone.

On a side note:
I think you should be more respectful to the religion. You do not have to send your child to a religious school and obviously the first thing you should look at when moving into an area is the schools for the kids, so you can't complain if you didn't do anything to prevent it.

Chuck Stone · 02-07-2011 4:41am

pragmatic1 wrote: »

However, all major religions should be taught, not just one.

Yes but they shouldn't be taught with the same prestige as science, geography, engineering, english, husbandry, sociology, baking buns etc.

Religion should be eaxamined as a curious by-product of human beings interacting with each other.

Seriously, there is no other good reason to have it in schools at all.

flutterflye · 02-07-2011 4:54am

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Oh really, the schools will say: Your child must learn this religion? I don't think so and unless you have proof (or this happened years ago), I don't think it's true.

I have an 8 year old with special needs.
He was 4 when he began school.
Due to his additional needs, he has had to move schools a fair few times for one reason or another.
He has attended 3 schools in his 4 years of schooling.
I have visited over a dozen further schools, and spoken on the phone with about 15-20 others, with the hope of enrolling him.

So, out of all my direct communications with approximately 40 primary schools in Dublin and the surrounding counties, over the past 4 years, guess how many were willing to grant my request that he did not partake in catholic teachings and practices?

Either 4 or 5.
And this was because they were educate together schools, and one was a state run community school.

My non catholic son has been forced to learn religion in a catholic biased manner, and partake in catholic practices for 3 out of his 4 years in the Irish school system.

Do you have any personal experience or knowledge here at all?
Or are you just plucking unfounded opinions out of nowhere?

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Why should they when they attend a religious school?

And AGAIN I will say: who are you to say that all those parents don't want their children to be taught the religion? It's none of your business which religion other people choose. It is not being forced on anyone.

I couldn't care less what parents wish to teach their own kids, so long as it is not harming them.

I object to it being taught in schools, as part of their mandatory education.

I also object to it being imposed upon impressionable minds of children who are not catholic, and whose parents do not wish their kids to have it imposed upon them.

Did you actually read anything that I wrote?
I have no issue with catholics learning catholicism.
They can learn catholicism in their homes, or in extra classes outside of school.

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

On a side note:
I think you should be more respectful to the religion. You do not have to send your child to a religious school and obviously the first thing you should look at when moving into an area is the schools for the kids, so you can't complain if you didn't do anything to prevent it.

I am not being in any way disrespectful of religion.
Can you explain how you believe me to be?

And the point concerning schools and moving, is not relevant to anything, because it does not matter about where you are living, or where you move to.
There are not enough places available in multi-denominational or similar schools.

Even if you enroll your child in one of these schools as a baby, you are not guaranteed a place as the demand is so high.

pragmatic1 · 02-07-2011 5:03am

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Yes but they shouldn't be taught with the same prestige as science, geography, engineering, english, husbandry, sociology, baking buns etc.

Religion should be eaxamined as a curious by-product of human beings interacting with each other.

Seriously, there is no other good reason to have it in schools at all.

An hour a week would be enough. The reason I think it should be in schools is because parents might teach their kids a very narrow version of one particular religion at home. If kids are taught about other religions, non-religious/anti-religious views and philosophy, they might be able to get a more balanced view than what they might normally get.

I was force-fed Catholicism at home as were most kids in my area. We had a discussion in my religion class one day about what happens to people from other religions when they die if they arent Christian. That was a major chink in my Catholic armour. I'm all for discussion about religion because it doesnt stand up to scrutiny.

AnneElizabeth · 02-07-2011 5:15am

flutterflye wrote: »

I have an 8 year old with special needs.
He was 4 when he began school.
Due to his additional needs, he has had to move schools a fair few times for one reason or another.
He has attended 3 schools in his 4 years of schooling.
I have visited over a dozen further schools, and spoken on the phone with about 15-20 others, with the hope of enrolling him.

So, out of all my direct communications with approximately 40 primary schools in Dublin and the surrounding counties, over the past 4 years, guess how many were willing to grant my request that he did not partake in catholic teachings and practices?

Either 4 or 5.
And this was because they were educate together schools, and one was a state run community school.

My non catholic son has been forced to learn religion in a catholic biased manner, and partake in catholic practices for 3 out of his 4 years in the Irish school system.

Do you have any personal experience or knowledge here at all?
Or are you just plucking unfounded opinions out of nowhere?

Special needs schools are not religious-run organizations, they're run by the government. And if your child attends regular school I don't see what him having special needs has to do with anything.

And yes I do have personal experience with this, in my primary school the people of other religions were never forced to partake in any religious ceremonies, they did not have to buy the religion book etc. Some were not even taught sex education because it was their parent's wish.

May I ask was your child turned down from the schools or was he accepted but had to learn religion? Because those are two completely separate issues.

flutterflye wrote: »

I couldn't care less what parents wish to teach their own kids, so long as it is not harming them.
I also object to it being imposed upon impressionable minds of children who are not catholic, and whose parents do not wish their kids to have it imposed upon them.

Then why do you keep saying "Why persuasive religious bias should continue to be legally impressed upon over 90% of Ireland's children."

How do you know what the rest of the country wants? You can only speak for yourself. Every other child in the country is none of your concern.

flutterflye wrote: »

I object to it being taught in schools, as part of their mandatory education.

It's not mandatory.

flutterflye wrote: »

Did you actually read anything that I wrote?
I have no issue with catholics learning catholicism.
They can learn catholicism in their homes, or in extra classes outside of school.

Why can't they learn religion in a Catholic school?

flutterflye wrote: »

I am not being in any way disrespectful of religion.
Can you explain how you believe me to be?

You're blaming the religion for the fact that there are a lot of Catholic schools. That's the fault of our ancestors.

flutterflye wrote: »

And the point concerning schools and moving, is not relevant to anything, because it does not matter about where you are living, or where you move to.
There are not enough places available in multi-denominational or similar schools.

Even if you enroll your child in one of these schools as a baby, you are not guaranteed a place as the demand is so high.

This is irrelevant, it is a struggle to enrol a child in any school.

02-07-2011 5:57am

flutterflye wrote: »

Still haven't seen any reasonable argument for starting this thread in After Hours instead of Atheism & Agnosticism

FYP

Tehachapi · 02-07-2011 6:05am

Niles wrote: »

Seriously, do we have to use terms like "stupid stories"? I completely respect people's right to believe or disbelieve something, be they Atheist, Christain, Agnostic, Muslim, Mormon or whatever. But dissing someone's beliefs with terms like "stupid" is not on in my opinion. I would never force my beliefs on anyone, I'm not even sure of them myself! If you think about it, if you insist on using terms like "stupid stories" to describe Christianity then effectively you're forcing a belief yourself...

They are stupid though. Really f**king stupid. Anyone who believes a man can do the following:

1. Defy the laws of physics and WALK on water
2. Transform small amounts of food into large amounts by magic
3. Resurrect themselves from the dead
4. Turn someone elses wife into a pillar of salt (seriously wtf?? I'd be on stage if I could write this stuff)
5. Turning a rod into a snake
6. Dividing a sea
7. Turning water into wine

Is an idiot. This isn't a personal insult against any particular person (i.e. I am staying within the confines of boards.ie rules) , just as I would state that anyone who believes some random nonsensical rubbish I make up (example: running backwards cures cancer) is also an idiot.

But hold on! Maybe that's unacceptable - however if I say "running backwards cures cancer" and this is part of my religious belief system - it's suddenly unacceptable to dismiss my statement as idiotic? Why?

Should we just let everyone in the world go around making public statements which are complete and utter nonsensical rubbish (such as running backwards curing cancer) for fear we might offend them? Isn't that dangerous?

flutterflye · 02-07-2011 6:08am

Oh good god!!! :pac:

It is clear to me that you are seriously lacking an ability to read, process, and formulate these little black symbols on your screen as they are actually written.

Like what is all of that???!

Ugh............

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Special needs schools are not religious-run organizations, they're run by the government. And if your child attends regular school I don't see what him having special needs has to do with anything.

And yes I do have personal experience with this, in my primary school the people of other religions were never forced to partake in any religious ceremonies, they did not have to buy the religion book etc. Some were not even taught sex education because it was their parent's wish.

May I ask was your child turned down from the schools or was he accepted but had to learn religion? Because those are two completely separate issues.

Okay....

Where did I mention special needs schools?!
Answer:

I didn't!!!

Yes, he goes to 'regular' (mainstream) school.
I mentioned his special needs in a hope to avoid a million replies from posters quoting my post asking why he has been to so many schools.

Some of the schools he was accepted into, some he was not. Unrelated to religion though.
I am unsure of the reason behind your irrelevant query.

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

How do you know what the rest of the country wants? You can only speak for yourself. Every other child in the country is none of your concern.

It's not mandatory.

The following is from the education act '98;

Education Act, 1998:
6. (e) to promote the right of parents to send their children to a school of the parents’ choice having regard to the rights of patrons and the effective and efficient use of resources;

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear.
It was probably my wording.
I'll try again.

All children are required by law to attend school.
92% of schools are catholic.
The overwhelming majority of these catholic schools insist on all their pupils following their religious programme, or do not have the resources to accommodate the parents wishes.
Therefore it stands to reason that they are legally required to attend religion.

You'll get the odd school that are more accommodating, but seriously, this is so rare.

And I don't know why you keep asking me how I know what other people want or something???

Sorry, but I just am not with you there at all.

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Why can't they learn religion in a Catholic school?

You're blaming the religion for the fact that there are a lot of Catholic schools. That's the fault of our ancestors.

There shouldn't be catholic schools!
There shouldn't be schools divided by religion!

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

This is irrelevant, it is a struggle to enrol a child in any school.

Not if it is your local school it's not.

flutterflye · 02-07-2011 6:14am

Deleted User wrote: »

FYP

Sorry, but have you mistaken me for the OP???

entropi · 02-07-2011 6:43am

Why not just teach the basics of each major religion, and some of the smaller ones...and instead of using more hours to talk about crap, use those hours to learn a useful language other than English?

paulmr · 02-07-2011 9:25am

Such negativity and unhappiness i feel so sorry for you that you have nothing more to do with your time than recall a few moments from your religious education which you were failed to be educated correctly on or maybe you were always so negative that you failed to listen!!! Life is full of symbols look around you! A wedding ring for example a noose aroud your neck or a message of love and commitment? you decide. You asked about where do we draw the line? answer my friend is when you are informed enough to know for yourself what makes you fulfilled in life. Catholics and our history indeed not perfect but important to a lot of people young and old an in todays world people need hope. You reminded us all of the story of the loaves and fish one of the greatest miracles performed by Jesus ; for your own information Jesus sat down with thousands of people also looking for hope at a time of political unrest and deprivation,who sat together on a hill side with men and women Jews, samaritans and Gentiles who never spoke to each other as a rule and yet they shared their food. There is nothing more sociable than sharing a meal with your friends a message he carried to the end.Religious beliefs should be nourished and respected. We all get confused at times and as you correctly mentioned going from a religion class where you are asked to have an open and accepting mind to a practical subject can be confusing but this should be a positive learning experience of asking questions and opening your mind to the world. Science is wonderful and where would we be without such advances but science and religion are not enemies and with so many ethical and moral issues it takes a person of a clear understanding of what it means to be human and to suffer to hurt and to live to help us all to deal with our lives.. Jesus,Moses , Muhammad, Siddharta Gautama all taught about the preciousness of life and its challenges (many difficult) but no where in science or technology can we find "why" either.Jesus we believe as Christians rose from the dead howver as a human he suffered such a horrific death imposed by other humans with a clear disregard for human life. Jesus resurrection whether you believe in it or not shows us that as humans we are not without hope.We live in such a diverse world that we need to embrace and allow all people to be the best that they can and i honestly believe two classes of religious education a week in our schools should be approached in an open accepting and informative manner. Open to all issues beliefs and questions with a knowledge that we cant know everything!! accepting of each other our opinions values morals and traditions. informed on all religious traditions in as far as time allows.Above all the time needs to be used just like every other school suject to prepare in as much as possible for life.You need more faith in our young ,innocent and impressionable young people of the future. Best of luck if you do decide to start your own religion in the morning i hope they are still discussing you in 2011 years time....

Cú Giobach · 02-07-2011 9:54am

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Maybe you should learn your facts.

Within a healthy religious environment, family bonds are upheld and even strengthened, questioning of the leader and basic tenets is accepted, and the leader lives in a similar manner to the followers.

There are numerous cases of families having problems when someone wants nothing to do with the religion of that family.
Try questioning Islam in many countries.
The pope lives like the average Irish person? Ha ha...that's funny.

One is offered all the information necessary to make an educated decision about joining, and once involved, people can choose the amount of involvement that feels right to them.

Not true in the slightest for many religions and sects of many religions.

A cultic environment tears families apart, does not accept any questioning, and has a leader who claims to have an exalted position and to be above reproach.

Same for organised religions.
Isn't the pope exalted and infallible?

The cult is designed to solely advance its own goals, to abuse the members’ trust, and to use fear and shame to manipulate the followers.

Don't all the Abrahamic religions use the threat of hell?
How many people have been shamed from the pulpit over the centuries?

It freely utilizes deceptive techniques while recruiting new members and fundraising, misuses scripture, and declares other belief systems as false.

Thou shalt not worship false gods.

Mainstream religions are nothing more than cults that have grown and spread.

philologos · 02-07-2011 9:59am

Meh. The best way of doing this is placing ones faith in God rather than in institutions. This allows people to do their own reading into the Bible or scriptural texts of other religions and come to their own conclusion. No fear of questioning whatsoever, it's something I do on a regular basis in respect to my beliefs.

partyatmygaff · 02-07-2011 10:54am

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The opinion of someone who believes in superstitious beings? Should it be respected?

They should learn about what is real. They should learn to be critical and questioning. They should learn through reason, observation and science.

I've no problem with you believeing whatever the hell you want - gods, fairies, moomins, leprechauns, centaurs, narwhals - whatever.

Just don't think I'm going to stand idly by and let you indoctrinate children in a systematic (schools teaching religion) way with your beliefs.

It's an analogy. If people around you don't have it then you won't pick it up. It's a cultural 'infection'. Children of atheist people will not think that there is a god.

Just as I am to refute it. I like to think you will extend that same liberty to what I have to say.

You mean you failed to see the nonsense that you were being fed.

It's all in the bible if you care to look.

Hey - you called me out - not I you.

I do. Logical reasoned thinking will see it for what it is too.

Oh you have my 100% agreement there. I most certainly am not. I try to let science and reason inform my views. Those are the authority I look to.

Meh. Catholic, Protestant, Christian, Muslim, Satanist, Scientologist Moominist - couldn't care less what one you follow tbh. They're all as irrational as each other.

You don't respect my way of describing your superstition. I think it's total nonsense that you believe in stuff that was made up by some guys. I have the same attitude towards people who believe that alien space fly around the place or that ghosts and vampires exist.

Come back with some evidence or even a good argument why I should even consider your beliefs should be listened to and then I'll think about treating it with due regard.

It took you an hour to come up with this rubbish? Gutter debating indeed.

If there's anyone who actually wants to debate without resorting to insults and ridicule then I may listen to them. If they want to act like an angry child whose adamant that they're right and everyone else is wrong then I have no time to waste with them.

Tehachapi wrote: »

They are stupid though. Really f**king stupid. Anyone who believes a man can do the following:

1. Defy the laws of physics and WALK on water
2. Transform small amounts of food into large amounts by magic
3. Resurrect themselves from the dead
4. Turn someone elses wife into a pillar of salt (seriously wtf?? I'd be on stage if I could write this stuff)
5. Turning a rod into a snake
6. Dividing a sea
7. Turning water into wine

You'd be quite right in saying that a mere man would not be able to do any of that. As man, a product of existence is limited by nature, God, the creator of existence is not limited by natural laws.

Is an idiot. This isn't a personal insult against any particular person

Anyone who listens to Metallica is an idiot. (This isn't a personal insult btw because I said it isn't. Instead i'm insulting Metallica fans ensemble which is more civil somehow)

As an aside, thanks for the insult. It hasn't been diluted by the fact it was directed at a few billion other people.

(i.e. I am staying within the confines of boards.ie rules)

Well, isn't that wonderful?

If boards.ie allowed you to verbally abuse people, would you do it?

But hold on! Maybe that's unacceptable - however if I say "running backwards cures cancer" and this is part of my religious belief system - it's suddenly unacceptable to dismiss my statement as idiotic? Why?

It's idiotic as there is absolutely no reason to believe that running backwards can cure cancer. The question of God however is inconclusive. Most people believe there is a God in some way or form with the vast majority being monotheists. A small minority do not believe in God.

Making up crazy religions about aliens or cancer cures on the spot is dismissible as the ramblings of madmen.

antodeco · 02-07-2011 10:58am

If anything, since they're teaching less religion in schools, the shortages have begun!

dvpower · 02-07-2011 11:53am

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

How is that possible if these are the definitions. Maybe try accepting when you're wrong and not being so rude.

Those definition are from some shower that call themselves the 'cult clinic'.:pac: I was using definitions from www.religionIsABitMad.com

dvpower · 02-07-2011 11:57am

Niles wrote: »

Some of the funding yes, but not all of it.

Are you saying that the religious organisations provide operational funding for the state school system? Do you have a link for this?

AudreyHepburn · 02-07-2011 11:59am

I think it is important for children to learn about different belief systems and cultures because it will help them to be more accepting and tolerant of people of different faiths and no faith.

Now having said that I was raised a Catholic and am I happy to remain so but I understand that's not for everyone so it is better for children to experience a little of everything and to make up their own minds.

Zebra3 · 02-07-2011 12:04pm

Crush religion.

dvpower · 02-07-2011 12:10pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think it is important for children to learn about different belief systems and cultures because it will help them to be more accepting and tolerant of people of different faiths and no faith.

The very best way of acheiving this is to have a good universal system where children of all faiths and none attend the same schools and are treated as equals.

A system of different religious schools for different sets of kids is an awful idea. The current system where the schools are catholic but others are (usually) accomodated is better but not ideal.

imo, a secular school system where religion is studied but no one religion is favoured would be best. Religious instruction should be done by the churches and parents, not by the state.

AudreyHepburn · 02-07-2011 12:15pm

dvpower wrote: »

The very best way of acheiving this is to have a good universal system where children of all faiths and none attend the same schools and are treated as equals.

A system of different religious schools for different sets of kids is an awful idea. The current system where the schools are catholic but others are (usually) accomodated is better but not ideal.

imo, a secular school system where religion is studied but no one religion is favoured would be best. Religious instruction should be done by the churches and parents, not by the state.

I agree with this 100%. I have always said I support secularism and I think the above is the correct way to teach children about religion.

dvpower · 02-07-2011 12:30pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It's idiotic as there is absolutely no reason to believe that running backwards can cure cancer. The question of God however is inconclusive. Most people believe there is a God in some way or form with the vast majority being monotheists. A small minority do not believe in God.

Making up crazy religions about aliens or cancer cures on the spot is dismissible as the ramblings of madmen.

Too right.
@Chuck Stone - don't be so silly, everyone knows that to cure cancer you need to do a novena to Saint Peregrine

O great St. Peregrine, you have been called "The Mighty," "The Wonder-Worker," because of the numerous miracles which you have obtained from God for those who have had recourse to you.

For so many years you bore in your own flesh this cancerous disease that destroys the very fibre of our being, and who had recourse to the source of all grace when the power of man could do no more. You were favoured with the vision of Jesus coming down from His Cross to heal your affliction. Ask of God and Our Lady, the cure of the sick whom we entrust to you.
(Pause here and silently recall the names of the sick for whom you are praying)
Aided in this way by your powerful intercession, we shall sing to God, now and for all eternity, a song of gratitude for His great goodness and mercy.
Amen.

02-07-2011 12:41pm

I remember posting a coherent reply on a thread on the *exact* same subject a few months back. Involves parents given the choice, religion being allowed but paid for by church and no one ramming whatever tradition or non-tradition down religious or non religious throats. (And in fairness, a lack of religion in schools is ramming intolerance of religion down the throats of kids. You want religion eradicated? Well get yourself an army together cos it's about as likely as the global caliphate Al Quada are looking to create unless you're willing to commit genocide.)

Not arsed to look for it, so go deck yerselves atheists, burn in the fires of he'll yada yada yada.....

Cú Giobach · 02-07-2011 12:45pm

dvpower wrote: »

Too right.
@Chuck Stone - don't be so silly, everyone knows that to cure cancer you need to do a novena to Saint Peregrine

Brilliant.

Freddie59 · 02-07-2011 12:54pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Brilliant.

:rolleyes: There are many who would disagree. Interesting how often these BS threads are raised. Just tell the school you want the child to opt out of religion. Grow a pair. And let people (like myself) who want the children to receive religious tuition (in a Catholic ethos) do so.

Short memories, or to quote an old saying - 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'. Many of the detractors and mockers of the Almighty creator and religious schools on here wouldn't have the intelligence to do so were it not for the very same schools. Irony. Ya gotta love it.:)

Freddie59 · 02-07-2011 12:54pm

paulmr wrote: »

i hope they are still discussing you in 2011 years time....

In a nutshell. Well said.:)

Freddie59 · 02-07-2011 12:58pm

Tehachapi wrote: »

The vast majority of my friends/colleagues working in the areas of IT/pharma/biology are non-religious.

Sweeping generalisation.

Should religion be taught in schools?

Comments