Farming and Gas Fracking

tuppence

Opportunity for people to keep updated as well as take stock of the sustainable industries we already have.
Gas MIning: Our Future? Public information night on Fracking coming up in the Bee Park community centre in Manorhamiliton tomorrow Tuesday October 18th at 7.30. Speakers include

Fr AB O Shea(parish priest sooey)
Rob Doyle (local vet)
Councillor Gerry Dolan
Sean Wynn (Lough Allen Conservation Group)
Nuala Mcnulty (Eco Tourism)

Chaired by Mary Daly
Organised by the Love Leitrim group.

bbam

tuppence wrote: »

Opportunity for people to keep updated as well as take stock of the sustainable industries we already have.
Gas MIning: Our Future? Public information night on Fracking coming up in the Bee Park community centre in Manorhamiliton tomorrow Tuesday October 18th at 7.30. Speakers include

Fr AB O Shea(parish priest sooey)
Rob Doyle (local vet)
Councillor Gerry Dolan
Sean Wynn (Lough Allen Conservation Group)
Nuala Mcnulty (Eco Tourism)

Chaired by Mary Daly
Organised by the Love Leitrim group.

I see its an information night on Fracking... I can't disern from the speakers who'll be speaking on behalf of the Fracking companies?? Or will this be a one sided information meeting?

From what I've read I dont like the sound of the fracking process and the potential destruction it may cause...

I do however like a decent balanced opinion on things from an information perspective...

threeball

Anywhere there is chemicals pumped into the ground is always bad news. Its amazing how intertwined the groundwater is in Ireland, (you're basicly walking a few meters above one big lake, broken into thousands of chambers). Any sort of polution would spell disaster. Peoples water wells could go from being safe to having the potential to kill them. Rivers and sources of water for lifestock would be destroyed too.

I'd also echo the point about regulation and government. If you want to judge the irish government and who their allegience lies with, the people or big business, then just watch this.

http://vimeo.com/8668733

Disturbing to say the least.

Voodoo_rasher

The Shannon is being considered as a source of drinking water for the Capital. How can this project not be affected by lethal, hazardous fracking activity up-stream??

How can this Govt condone fracking with respect to the above?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenno
If this gas fracking is allowed to go ahead and is not stopped then we can all say goodbye to our health and the environment and also our water supply.

I can see very serious problems ahead in relation to this gas fracking and I cannot believe the government gave the go-ahead as this is akin to allowing a company destroy a country and the health of humans and animals and our water. it just goes to show that the government don't give a rats arse about the health and safety of it's citizens.

god help the people living around the 3 gas companies drilling sites and for the rest of us.

people better get educated on this issue soon, this is a very serious problem that will affect everyone in this country.

tuppence

bbam wrote: »

I see its an information night on Fracking... I can't disern from the speakers who'll be speaking on behalf of the Fracking companies?? Or will this be a one sided information meeting?

From what I've read I dont like the sound of the fracking process and the potential destruction it may cause...

I do however like a decent balanced opinion on things from an information perspective...

There is no vested interests unless you figure that community coming together to try and share information they have sourced to others as being one sided. Theres nothing in it for the people who have generously taken time out to present this and they are from all persuasions and jobs-Motivation in the most part is their concern, of trying to protect the place they care about and their familes and livlihoods. Thats enough to unite people dont you think? Information is out there in the public domain but it changes fast so its important to try and keep on top of it, and most info will be from peer reviewed research. Some people are better than others at being able to compile it together, others at presenting it, other again at getting the hall. (thats volunteering) And if you come bbam you'l no doubt be found a job to do!! But even in this platform there will be the exhibition from the Sculpture Centre in the Bee Park on show which illustrates the two sides of the industry, from both perspectives with information coming from the industries own sources. That is fair.


The private companies who have shareholders, cannot be seen to really have the public interest at heart have had recent consultation nights as you may be aware. You must also be aware that it is in the finincial interest and capability of such an industry to be able to have paid pr staff that can sell their 'product'. How can a private industry ever be expected to have a social conscience about teh place we live in, and they havent anywhere they went t so what makes us different. Indeed Fr. O Shea on the leitrim Observer warned people about these gas companies
"People need to critically examine all that these people are saying. These representatives coming from these companies are skilled presenters…it is their job to appear genuine and sell this to us. It is in their interests and they are paid to do it. It is important that people are not led astray by the words of private companies. Its public events’ like this one on Oct 18th that people can get the facts from their own community, from people that have no agenda but the love of the place they live. Its important that people get facts so that they can make informed decisions"


A debate format with both sides represented on teh platform am sure will be in the offig for the future. I am sure the firms can afford it.

SleepAtNight

The French have joined a number of American states and decided to ban this unknown form of extraction.

The huge problem seems to be that it's such a new form of technology, environmentally intensive technology as well, that legislation hasn't caught up with it. It's an absolute nonsense to talk about regulation when the only form of regulation involved is self regulation by the fracking industry.

Lets hope this country has finally learned it's lesson about jumping head first towards the latest pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. Jump first and think after seems to have become such a popular national pastime it really is no wonder that the country is in economic and in many ways ecolgical ruins.

The main thing people forget is that as independent as we like to think ourselves as, we are utterly dependent on the environment that surrounds us and if we continue to treat it like some sort of toy then our existence will be become tougher and tougher.

SleepAtNight

reilig wrote: »

The exploration is all taking place on private lands owned by private individuals. In order for the exploration companies to go onto these lands to "explore", they need to have permission from the landowner. They have already stated that they will pay compensation to any landowners in exchange for permission to go onto the land. If they find gas during these explorations and wish to remove it, they will have to buy it from the landowner.

Is this meant to fill us with some kind of confidence? That private ownership somehow means this will be done properly. Wasn't the disasterous housing boom conducted on private lands...usually starting with the lands around towns being bought from farmers and now lying idle as ghost estates. And what good is it to my community down river from all this if our water is contaminated by radon while Johnny up in Leitrim or Cavan gets his few bob for his patch of land. When is this mé féin money-grabing I'm all right jack mentality going to end in this country?

reilig

SleepAtNight wrote: »

Is this meant to fill us with some kind of confidence? That private ownership somehow means this will be done properly. Wasn't the disasterous housing boom conducted on private lands...usually starting with the lands around towns being bought from farmers and now lying idle as ghost estates. And what good is it to my community down river from all this if our water is contaminated by radon while Johnny up in Leitrim or Cavan gets his few bob for his patch of land. When is this mé féin money-grabing I'm all right jack mentality going to end in this country?

I honestly think that you are having a go at the wrong people SleepAtNight. This is the Farming and Forestry Forum. The "mé féin money-grabing" sentiment that you talk about was by developers as opposed to farmers. 99.9% of farmers sold no land for development during the so called "boom". During this period of time, farm incomes dropped to an all-time low. The banks didn't even want to lend money to farmers to help to keep their business running - they preferred to lend money to more secure businesses like housing developers. Banks would bite the right hand off a farmer just to get his/her business these days :rolleyes:

I have to laugh when I look at articles in the local papers about this fracking. I see names of county councillors who are opposed to fracking and being very vocal. These same names were posted all over the papers a few years back as they lobbied for planning permission for huge housing estates for their tiny villages. I also recall reading about a debate in the County Council Chamber in 2005 where many of these councillors argued that Leitrim would need 12,000 new houses before 2010 in order to accommodate its population. Many of the the other names linked by local press to the fracking opposition are former developers who got fat on the backs of ordinary people.

While I have got some more information on both sides of the fracking debate, and I am not in favour of Fracking in any form, the whole fracking opposition movement is certainly the pot calling the kettle black when you look at some of its members - especially unter the terms that you view them

(me féin money-grabing I'm all right jack mentality)

. Many people are involved in it just for the attention, to get their names and pictures in the paper. The genuine people who fear for their health, their environment and their homes do all the ground work, but they will quickly be forgotten about when the media frenzy blows over!!

corazon

From the NY Times, some info on the economic effects when fracking comes to town,

MONTROSE, Pa. — In the economic downturn three years ago, Adam Diaz idled the trucks at his bluestone quarry and silenced the saws at his lumber mill.

Fortunately for him, the gas companies arrived at about the same time, and Mr. Diaz saw an opportunity.
He started hauling their waste. He parlayed 1 truck into 8 and now has a fleet of 53. Then he revived a weedy rail spur and now leases 210 rail cars to haul more waste containers. His work force grew to 180 from 30 as he created a business that now has revenues of $45 million a year.
Other residents also began taking advantage of the “gas rush.” Some supplied the companies with machine parts; others laid pipe. One entrepreneurial couple opened a food wagon where they also sell alpaca socks to drillers from Louisiana and Texas who were unprepared for the cold.
The gas boom is transforming small towns like this one (population 4,400 and growing) and revitalizing the economy of this once-forgotten stretch of rural northeastern Pennsylvania. The few hotels here have expanded, restaurants are packed and housing rentals have more than doubled.
“There’s been a snowball effect due to the gas companies coming in,” Mr. Diaz, 33, said recently at his bustling empire near here.
But the boom — brought on by an advanced drilling technique called hydraulic fracturing, known as fracking — has brought problems too. While the gas companies have created numerous high-paying drilling jobs, many residents lack the skills for them. Some people’s drinking water has been contaminated. Narrow country roads are crumbling under the weight of heavy trucks. With housing scarce and expensive, more residents are becoming homeless. Local services and infrastructure are strained



more here

SleepAtNight

reilig wrote: »

I honestly think that you are having a go at the wrong people SleepAtNight. This is the Farming and Forestry Forum. The "mé féin money-grabing" sentiment that you talk about was by developers as opposed to farmers. 99.9% of farmers sold no land for development during the so called "boom". During this period of time, farm incomes dropped to an all-time low. The banks didn't even want to lend money to farmers to help to keep their business running - they preferred to lend money to more secure businesses like housing developers. Banks would bite the right hand off a farmer just to get his/her business these days :rolleyes:

I have to laugh when I look at articles in the local papers about this fracking. I see names of county councillors who are opposed to fracking and being very vocal. These same names were posted all over the papers a few years back as they lobbied for planning permission for huge housing estates for their tiny villages. I also recall reading about a debate in the County Council Chamber in 2005 where many of these councillors argued that Leitrim would need 12,000 new houses before 2010 in order to accommodate its population. Many of the the other names linked by local press to the fracking opposition are former developers who got fat on the backs of ordinary people.

While I have got some more information on both sides of the fracking debate, and I am not in favour of Fracking in any form, the whole fracking opposition movement is certainly the pot calling the kettle black when you look at some of its members - especially unter the terms that you view them . Many people are involved in it just for the attention, to get their names and pictures in the paper. The genuine people who fear for their health, their environment and their homes do all the ground work, but they will quickly be forgotten about when the media frenzy blows over!!

That is true, much of the develpment land around the big towns and cities wasn't agricultural but around the small towns and villages of this part of the country in places like Tulsk, Frenchpark even Drumshanbo, it was to some extent farmers who sold off the land for development. By no means is it the fault of farmers overall that the building boom was such a shambles but it does illustrate that just because a resource is in private ownership doesn't make it any more immune to molly hick development such as the Corrib fiasco.

Completely agree though, had to laugh at the likes of Rachel Doherty on this weeks Roscommon Herald raising concerns about fracking given her party's record, which no doubt if still in government would be doing as little as the current administration in dealing with this issue despite her criticisms of FG/Labour.

reilig

SleepAtNight wrote: »

Completely agree though, had to laugh at the likes of Rachel Doherty on this weeks Roscommon Herald raising concerns about fracking given her party's record, which no doubt if still in government would be doing as little as the current administration in dealing with this issue despite her criticisms of FG/Labour.

I don't concern myself with parties. I vote for who I think is honest and who might be able to help me. (Its getting harder and harder to find someone to vote for).

I cycled through Cootehall a few weeks ago - first time in about 10 years. I remembered Cootehall as a nice quaint village with a big green area in the centre. I was shocked to see that the green area was now covered in rows of houses (some unfinished) and a for sale sign on most. My fellow cyclist informed me that the development belonged to Rachael. How someone could bring such a development to their own tiny village is uncomprehendable :eek:

Builderfromhell

I came across this video when researching Fracking.
Gives a simple explanation of fracking,

http://current.com/green/93572537_fracking-made-simple-animated-guide-to-shale-gas-drilling.htm

Johnboy1951

Originally Posted by reilig

The exploration is all taking place on private lands owned by private individuals. In order for the exploration companies to go onto these lands to "explore", they need to have permission from the landowner. They have already stated that they will pay compensation to any landowners in exchange for permission to go onto the land. If they find gas during these explorations and wish to remove it, they will have to buy it from the landowner.

Farmers/landowners in this country do not own the mineral rights to their land, as far as I am aware.
Therefore they will receive nothing from the development companies related to what they might extract. Likely they would receive compensation for ruining their land ..... or have it bought outright maybe, at more than market value.

The state claims ownership of minerals ...... including water IIRC.
I believe a similar situation exists in the UK and other EU countries.

That is as I understand the situation.

Voodoo_rasher

http://oceanfm.ie/article/Coillte-denies-signing-deal-for-gas-extraction/

tuppence

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

http://oceanfm.ie/article/Coillte-denies-signing-deal-for-gas-extraction/

This is the source of where that report came from, an extensive and good piece by John Mulligan in Tuesdays farming section of the Irish Independent.
Its worth putting your concerns across, as indeed people in the main would see fracking coming in the side door through Coillte as the ultimate betrayal afaik.
Comments can be given here on the online snipet by the way. Bit I attach the full scanned article.
http://www.independent.ie/farming/news-features/coillte-denies-signing-deal-for-gas-extraction-2967861.html

colrow

A couple on interesting articles and further links


http://www.europeunconventionalgas.org/?gclid=CPj4h52WmK0CFQRP4Qod4DJImw

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21120-how-fracking-caused-earthquakes-in-the-uk.html

MOSSAD

I'm all for stringent environmental protection.
With respect to fracking, it's important that it be thoroughly investigated, the various techniques explained scientifically and all benefits and disadvantages outlined.
I've noticed a tendancy for people to jump on an anti-bandwagon without having fully explored what's involved. As a forester, I'm weary of hearing the nonsense spouted about my industry being taken as gospel.
Where I live, objectors to a windfarm wailed and gnashed teeth, warning of animals driven mad by noise, pregnant women spontaneously aborting if they glanced at a spinning blade, water being poisoned-in fact pretty much every negative thing, except a tsunami-at that stage such events hadn't really entered the public consciousness!
Forty years ago, the largest lead/zinc deposit was discovered under the best land in this country,at Navan. Co Meath. I cannot imagine the objections today to the development of the mine if it were recently discovered. We're talking about two heavy metals, yet since production began there has not been any problem. Properly regulated, there is I think, a way to accommodate industry. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

johnk1960

Hi Mossad
I agree with your views - but gas fracking has caused some pretty severe groundwater problems in the US as shown in the gaslands film. There is enough reason for doubt to postpone any development here until we see how it turns out long term in the US and elsewhere. Why not leave it in the ground for now?
regards, John

MOSSAD

johnk1960 wrote: »

Hi Mossad
I agree with your views - but gas fracking has caused some pretty severe groundwater problems in the US as shown in the gaslands film. There is enough reason for doubt to postpone any development here until we see how it turns out long term in the US and elsewhere. Why not leave it in the ground for now?
regards, John

The USA represents the most naked form of capitalism-for the most part most regulation is in name only. I don't know who made the film to which you refer so I don't know what their agenda is.
I do not want to see any groundwater pollution in his country, but I'd like to know if there is a clean way to fracture the rock.
We're broke, the best of our youth are emigrating(and I advise them to leave). However if we can cleanly tap into these gas reserves, and more importantly if the permanent government and their political pals are prevented from giving away this natural resource, we may be able to quickly buy our way out of the current appalling and longterm morass and salvage something of out sovereignty and pride and keep our youth here.
I know that farming/forestry does not necessarily mean degrading the environment, and I also know that neither does mining.
Almost four years ago,a group recommended tapping into the potential on this island for harnessing wind power by way of both windfarms and water storage as a back up. Nothing has happened. Any incentive has been effectively strangled. The questions are by whom and why? There is a particular mindset in Ireland, at best mediocre and poorly informed, which favours the status quo. For the rest of us who know that advancement does NOT necessarily mean environmental degradation, I believe we must examine all options.
We have to examine this fracking and see if it would stand up environmentally, then economically. Should we decide against it, would anyone be in favour of instead mining our groundwater resources to become a world supplier of this most important of natural asstes?
Another point I've made in other posts is that the irish landscape is essentially man made-there is precious little "natural" about it.
Apologies for the long post; I despair of the inability of this country to look objectively at anything

Birdnuts

Can't see much happening in this area for the next few years anyway since the price of gas on world markets in tanking with a glut of supply in many parts of the world. An indication of this is the amount of oil fields in the Middle East, Africa, Russia and North America burning off vast amount of natural gas as a waste product from oil extraction.. A dreadfull waste in my opinion but thats the effed up world we live in:(

fodda

This country has a thriving agriculture and tourism industry employing hundreds of thousands directly and indirectly with agriculture being one of the few industries that is bucking the recession.

Why should all these jobs be jeopodised? Nobody will buy the produce if it comes from a polluted area and no tourists are going to go to a polluted area either.

Ireland has masses of spare capacity to produce clean energy from many other forms and this would employ many more people and harm virtually nobodies life or business.

There is no real justification for something with such a bad reputation that some countries have totally banned it.

Oldtree

MOSSAD wrote: »

I'm all for stringent environmental protection.
As a forester, I'm weary of hearing the nonsense spouted about my industry being taken as gospel.

http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/cwgbsnsngb/
http://www.epa.ie/licences/lic_eDMS/090151b2800dcd62.pdf

Good to see attitudes have changed in your industry and that clearfelling has been replaced as the usual method of phospherous release into the environment.

These people seem to be working on it, but without appearing to get the idea that it is the clearfelling that is the problem. why not try selective felling? oh I know its not financially viable....

http://oar.marine.ie/handle/10793/665

The point is that none of us have a pedistil to stand on and we should be wary of any new industry that impacts hugely on our environment, until it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will not realise the fear of destroying our own habitat.

MOSSAD

Oldtree wrote: »

Good to see attitudes have changed in your industry and that clearfelling has been replaced as the usual method of phospherous release into the environment.

These people seem to be working on it, but without appearing to get the idea that it is the clearfelling that is the problem. why not try selective felling? oh I know its not financially viable....

Right, another expert.
I suggest you look at the cultivation techniques used in afforestation. In the past these were primarily various types of ploughing which were inherently unstable. However, in the early 1980s mechanical mounding was introduced. Each tree grows in its own mound of soil, and with correct thinning/spacing, the trees will be stable which ultimately may pave the way for selective felling managemment techniques. Ploughed sites are rarely thinned, and have to be clearfelled because it it physically impossible for the trees to remain upright once their neighbours are removed. These sites are usually upland and exposed which adds to the instability.
You may ask why were these sites chosen then ? It boils down to government policy at the time and local political interference. I note that agriculture is the primary culprit.
"Sampling of inflowing streams revealed that the highest concentrations of phosphorus were to be found downstream of improved pasture land."
I notice that your noxious emissions, ie via your septic tank, are possible factors for the eutrophication of the lake-what steps have you taken to curtail these?
As for the EPA....bad science, bad statistics and some leading egomaniacs determined to enshrine the findings of their doctoral theses in law...enough said.
We have had government forest inspectors go native and decide to solve any possible water problems emanating from forests by introducing "inverted mounding"-a total disaster which is a ticking compensation timebomb for the taxpayer. Large areas of Co. Clare have been afforested using this harebrained technique and I'm aware of a lawyer currently collecting data for a class action lawsuit against the Forest Service on behalf of affected farmers. You and me pay for this civil service bull****. Don't condemn, but familiarise yourself with history and reality, as should anyone involved in a land use industry. If they do not try to mitigate any potential adverse effects of their activities, then sanction them.
Note too the Marine institute report is a 2011 paper.
To other posters I must apologize for going off topic but some comments need to be debunked.

Cardinal Richelieu

Ohio has some of the weakest Environmental Laws in the States, I presume fracking companies operating in Ireland are banned from the disposal of wastewater this way or should I Earthquake proof my house?

ScientificAmerican

Jan 4th 2012

Ohio Earthquake Likely Caused by Fracking Wastewater

Injecting wastewater deep underground is the prime suspect, potentially widening earthquake worries linked to hydraulic fracturing
Residents of Youngstown, Ohio, received an extra surprise on Christmas Eve and again on New Year's Eve—earthquakes, measuring 2.7 and 4.0 on the Richter scale, respectively. No one was injured and only a few cases of minor damage were reported after the Dec. 31 event.
Scientists have quickly determined that the likely cause was fracking—although not from drilling into deep shale or cracking it with pressured water and chemicals to retrieve natural gas. Rather, they suspect the disposal of wastewater from those operations, done by pumping it back down into equally deep sandstone.
Fracking is part of a nationwide boom in the production of natural gas, which is a ready replacement for home heating oil and could lessen dependence on foreign fossil fuels if vast underground shales could be hydraulically fractured. Opposition to fracking has arisen mostly out of fear that the technique could potentially contaminate drinking water supplies.
Nine small earthquakes had already occurred between March and November 2011 within an eight-kilometer radius of a wastewater injection well run by Northstar Disposal Services. Because quakes are otherwise rare in the Youngstown area, the Ohio Department of Natural Resources in November asked Columbia University's Lamont–Doherty Earth Observatory (LDEO) to place mobile seismographs in the vicinity to better determine what was going on. John Armbruster from LDEO installed four seismographs on November 30.
By triangulating the arrival time of shock waves at the four stations, Armbruster and his colleagues needed only a day or two to determine with 95 percent certainty that the epicenters of the two holiday quakes were within 100 meters of each other, and within 0.8 kilometer of the injection well. The team also determined that the quakes were caused by slippage along a fault at about the same depth as the injection site, almost three kilometers down.
Although LDEO scientists are not saying that the pumping caused the quakes, injection fluids have been implicated in other strike-slip earthquakes close to deep-injection wells. In essence, the fluids can act as lubricants between two abutting rock faces, helping them to suddenly slip along the boundary. The scientists did say that subsequent quakes from the Youngstown injections, which had been underway for a year, could continue to occur for up to another year, even if no more fluids are added. Ohio lawmakers have asked Northstar to stop operations until a full investigation is complete; the company has agreed but is not talking publicly about the events.
For the latest science and debates about fracking, including the unlikely chance that the practice caused a magnitude 5.6 temblor on November 14 near Oklahoma City, see our ongoing Storify file, which is updated weekly. News in New York State is picking up again because the deadline for public comments about proposed fracking rules is January 11, and regulations from the state's Department of Environmental Conservation that would allow fracking are likely to follow.

Oldtree

MOSSAD wrote: »

Right, another expert.
I suggest you look at the cultivation techniques used in afforestation. In the past these were primarily various types of ploughing which were inherently unstable. However, in the early 1980s mechanical mounding was introduced. Each tree grows in its own mound of soil, and with correct thinning/spacing, the trees will be stable which ultimately may pave the way for selective felling managemment techniques. Ploughed sites are rarely thinned, and have to be clearfelled because it it physically impossible for the trees to remain upright once their neighbours are removed. These sites are usually upland and exposed which adds to the instability.
You may ask why were these sites chosen then ? It boils down to government policy at the time and local political interference. I note that agriculture is the primary culprit.
"Sampling of inflowing streams revealed that the highest concentrations of phosphorus were to be found downstream of improved pasture land."
I notice that your noxious emissions, ie via your septic tank, are possible factors for the eutrophication of the lake-what steps have you taken to curtail these?
As for the EPA....bad science, bad statistics and some leading egomaniacs determined to enshrine the findings of their doctoral theses in law...enough said.
We have had government forest inspectors go native and decide to solve any possible water problems emanating from forests by introducing "inverted mounding"-a total disaster which is a ticking compensation timebomb for the taxpayer. Large areas of Co. Clare have been afforested using this harebrained technique and I'm aware of a lawyer currently collecting data for a class action lawsuit against the Forest Service on behalf of affected farmers. You and me pay for this civil service bull****. Don't condemn, but familiarise yourself with history and reality, as should anyone involved in a land use industry. If they do not try to mitigate any potential adverse effects of their activities, then sanction them.
Note too the Marine institute report is a 2011 paper.
To other posters I must apologize for going off topic but some comments need to be debunked.

Am an arborist so am an expert (although you would look at a forest as a crop wheras i would look at individual trees). I take it as far as using vegetable chain lube oil in the chainsaw, do you?

Sellective felling is not a new idea, neither is sellective points from a study.

I have a puraflow system in the back garden and the septic tank is emptied regularly.

Apologies to other posters too but some comments are just too instutionalised and need to be brought into the present.

Rovi

[MOD]
I've fixed a bit of quoting in some posts above, to eliminate confusion over who's quoting what.

Folks, this is a most interesting debate, but can I please ask you not to personalise things?
We mods don't want to have to be pulling people apart and trying to decide who said what to who first and all that nonsense
[/MOD]

Builderfromhell

The number of County Council's banning fracking is increasing all the time' sligo and Clare being the latest to ban this questionable mining practice.
I hear the IFA discussed fracking at their recent meeting in Ennis and have unanimously agreed that it should be banned.

MOSSAD

Oldtree wrote: »

Am an arborist so am an expert (although you would look at a forest as a crop wheras i would look at individual trees).

I'm a forester first by hobby, and it's one of my professions.
I look at individual trees as well as see a crop. My plantations have been described as more akin to an arboretum, yet I marry both commercial production with aesthetics and environmental consideration.
My comments dervice from a good 30 years of working at the coalface. I have never worked for the state in any form and would never contemplate it.
As for Clare county council banning fracking, what hard cold scientific investigations have they done to back this up, although looking for a scientist there is like looking for a jew in al-qaeda.

reilig

MOSSAD wrote: »

As for Clare county council banning fracking, what hard cold scientific investigations have they done to back this up, although looking for a scientist there is like looking for a jew in al-qaeda.

One of the most knowledgable comments came from a green party county councillor: "Just because an "anti" group are able to make the most noise, doesn't mean that they are always right. But they are usually the most listened to and if they can shout loud enough, they can almost always convince people that they are right even if they don't have the evidence to back themselves up. The majority of people will believe what they are told. Only a small minority will ever demand evidence. "

He described it as a NIMBY tactic and said that it was borrowed from Communist Dictatorships.

Its the only sensible thing I ever heard him say

Johnboy1951

MOSSAD wrote: »

As for Clare county council banning fracking, what hard cold scientific investigations have they done to back this up, although looking for a scientist there is like looking for a jew in al-qaeda.

There is nothing at all to prevent them from changing that stance should the information be put forward to convince them.

I believe it is a prudent stance to take in the present circumstances ...... ban it for now, until all the results of studies are in and digested, and there are clear and adequate regulations and controls in place to protect the people and environment from any negative aspects.

I commend them for doing this now ...... and hope and expect that they are equally open to change their stance when and if information is made available to overcome their concerns, and those of the people of Clare.