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When atheists go too far

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    #212
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    squod wrote: »
    The stories the likes of Dawkins peddle don't take into account the scale of improbability his theory has. For man to have evolved in this universe a whole load of events would have to occur. We're talking near ∞ to 1 in terms of odds.

    How many big monkeys do you know that can appreciate beauty, art or have an interest in logic, science, ethics? Where did our morality come from? Might all be good fun reading books from this snake oil salesman but ultimately he's deriding you. If someone telling you you're just a big monkey it's because they're trying to make a monkey out of you.
    You do realise all the mainstream religions accept evolution as fact, and it's only really the nut jobs left over who believe otherwise?


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    #213
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    squod wrote: »
    The stories the likes of Dawkins peddle don't take into account the scale of improbability his theory has. For man to have evolved in this universe a whole load of events would have to occur. We're talking near ∞ to 1 in terms of odds.

    How many big monkeys do you know that can appreciate beauty, art or have an interest in logic, science, ethics? Where did our morality come from? Might all be good fun reading books from this snake oil salesman but ultimately he's deriding you. If someone telling you you're just a big monkey it's because they're trying to make a monkey out of you.

    Or in other words:
    "Ummmmmm. Theres stuff we dont know. Figuring it out might be tough. Ummmmmmmmmmm:confused::confused::confused: GOD DIDDIT!!!!!!!!!:D:cool:


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    #214
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    That's what Christianity claims to do in the lives of individuals. It claims to make people aim to live as Jesus lived when He was with us on earth. As far as I'm concerned if it fails to make us aim to live this way it is defective in some way.

    I reject the use of "The Church" on this forum. In using "The Church" you are assuming that the RCC is the only legitimate Christian church on this island. I don't deny that churches in general can be defective as institutions. That's why it is up for each Christian to be Biblically correct and urge their churches to strive towards Christian principles rather than selfishness.

    Christianity isn't about seeing the good in the "Church". It's about recognising Jesus as Lord and being willing to follow Him. As far as I'm concerned unquestioning faith in human institutions such as churches is an awful idea. We need to question so that our church is more and more in line with Biblical principles.


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    #215
    Newaglish
    Registered Users Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭Newaglish


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    It isn't. It's with individuals who use the religion as a vehicle for their own purposes and agendas.

    Your Israel signature in this instance is incredibly ironic.


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    #216
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    philologos wrote: »
    Permitting something is not the same thing as approving it. We will be judged by God based on the ultimate decision that we make in this life. Either to follow Him and live by His standards or to reject Him and His standards.
    The question then is, what are these standards?
    What a god supposedly wants from us changes all the time and is different according to what religion one adheres to.
    Basic morality and altruism is common throughout the human race irrespective of ones religious beliefs and is necessary for any society to function and continue, whether that is a small tribal group or a large western country.
    Also why would a supposedly omnipotent and omniscient being with infinite love demand subservience? Even as a lowly human I can understand that if you truly love someone you will not punish them if they reject you, no matter how much it hurts.


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    #217
    ColeTrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ColeTrain


    Atheism really is great. Much better than being an agnostic even.

    Sunday mornings are now spent how I please, sometimes I watch TV or go for a run, this can change however. I no longer have to listen to a Priest rambling on about letters from the Romans and other stuff that has no relevance in this day in age. The days of sitting in a church daydreaming and wondering why the Priest doesn't change the fu*king record are now long gone.

    I can eat meat on Friday's too and use contraception without breaking some sort of ancient code that is made up as it goes along.... YASSSS.

    It's also helps me develop a sense of self entitlement and confidence, I can now look down at certain individuals who devout their life's to a book with no evidence. It makes me feel superior in a way. I say that tounge in cheek but I bet any Atheist feels the same too in a way.

    You have so much to gain by shaking off what was beat into your head as a child and all you have to do is not believe in a sky god and just follow a little science and logic. Makes sense.


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    #218
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    The question then is, what are these standards?

    In two sentences - Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself.

    This sums up most of the standards of God. Aiming to live each day to glorify God and to seek Him in each and every life decision we make and to strive to make other peoples lives better by our existence, including sharing the life-changing Gospel.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    What a god supposedly wants from us changes all the time and is different according to what religion one adheres to.

    This begs the question of whether or not there is one God or many. What God in the Judeo-Christian sense has expected us has been the same throughout the ages. We were created to reflect God in His image and we failed to do this. Jesus came into the world as God in flesh, and died in our place so that we might have a new relationship with God just like the old one, in terms of reflecting God's glory.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Basic morality and altruism is common throughout the human race irrespective of ones religious beliefs and is necessary for any society to function and continue, whether that is a small tribal group or a large western country.

    It really isn't though. All you need to do is look at the newspaper today to see the inherent ability of humans to screw one another over. Look at our societies and see how they are for the poor, the weak and marginalised.

    Christian ethics go much further than the "if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" type ethic. It says if someone hates you love them back. Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. It says put others beyond yourself and ultimately Jesus did that for all of us. That's exemplary as far as I see it, and I can only hope to try and live this way more and more.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Also why would a supposedly omnipotent and omniscient being with infinite love demand subservience? Even as a lowly human I can understand that if you truly love someone you will not punish them if they reject you, no matter how much it hurts.

    It's not subservience. God has given us standards because He loves us, they are for our benefit. God created the world and as a result He knows what is best to do in it.

    As for love meaning not punishing. That's nonsense. Parents punish their children. God is also just meaning that He follows through with His standards. He has given us a way so that we can come to know Him again. If you reject that that is entirely up to you.
    ColeTrain wrote: »
    I can eat meat on Friday's too and use contraception without breaking some sort of ancient code that is made up as it goes along.... YASSSS.

    None of that is Biblical. It is based on the teaching of the RCC.


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    #219
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    ColeTrain wrote: »
    Atheism really is great. Much better than being an agnostic even.

    Sunday mornings are now spent how I please, sometimes I watch TV or go for a run, this can change however. I no longer have to listen to a Priest rambling on about letters from the Romans and other stuff that has no relevance in this day in age. The days of sitting in a church daydreaming and wondering why the Priest doesn't change the fu*king record are now long gone.

    I can eat meat on Friday's too and use contraception without breaking some sort of ancient code that is made up as it goes along.... YASSSS.

    I dunno that sounds like typical Catholic behaviour to me


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    #220
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    philologos wrote: »
    In two sentences - Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself.
    This sums up most of the standards of God. Aiming to live each day to glorify God and to seek Him in each and every life decision we make and to strive to make other peoples lives better by our existence, including sharing the life-changing Gospel.
    These quotes bring us back to the question, why would a god demand to be loved?
    Demanding someone loves you is to my mind quite pathetic, and a sign of insecurity.
    This begs the question of whether or not there is one God or many. What God in the Judeo-Christian sense has expected us has been the same throughout the ages. We were created to reflect God in His image and we failed to do this. Jesus came into the world as God in flesh, and died in our place so that we might have a new relationship with God just like the old one, in terms of reflecting God's glory.........
    It really isn't though. All you need to do is look at the newspaper today to see the inherent ability of humans to screw one another over. Look at our societies and see how they are for the poor, the weak and marginalised.
    According to the bible (old testament) there are many things god wants that would be looked on with horror by any sane human, we as people have basically picked and chosen which laws to adhere to by our own innate sense of morality.
    I think if you actually look around you, you will see humans are actually basically quite nice to each other and will help others in trouble. The vast majority of people are like this and just because a minority are not does not negate my point.
    Christian ethics go much further than the "if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" type ethic. It says if someone hates you love them back. Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. It says put others beyond yourself and ultimately Jesus did that for all of us. That's exemplary as far as I see it, and I can only hope to try and live this way more and more.
    So why doesn't god himself adhere to these rules ie love his enemies or those who reject him?
    It's not subservience. God has given us standards because He loves us, they are for our benefit. God created the world and as a result He knows what is best to do in it.
    Demanding someone obeys your rules is demanding subservience.
    As for love meaning not punishing. That's nonsense. Parents punish their children. God is also just meaning that He follows through with His standards. He has given us a way so that we can come to know Him again. If you reject that that is entirely up to you.
    An infinity of punishment for the doings in the merest blip of a lifetime would be like a parent beating the living crap out of, or even killing a child, for being disobedient.


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    #221
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    These quotes bring us back to the question, why would a god demand to be loved?
    Demanding someone loves you is to my mind quite pathetic, and a sign of insecurity.

    God's world is His. We live in it and He has placed certain standards on it. That's pretty much the way that I see it. If we willfully reject His standards we can expect to be punished just as in numerous other areas in which we reject authorities.

    God doesn't need anyone to love Him rather we need the love of God and to be in a fulfilling relationship with Him in order to have a real wholeness of being.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    According to the bible (old testament) there are many things god wants that would be looked on with horror by any sane human, we as people have basically picked and chosen which laws to adhere to by our own innate sense of morality.

    Meh. I find that these arguments tend to be built on strawmen personally having read the Bible in depth over the past few years.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    I think if you actually look around you, you will see humans are actually basically quite nice to each other and will help others in trouble. The vast majority of people are like this and just because a minority are not does not negate my point.

    We must live on a completely different planet. I find people are more disposed to what is evil rather than what is good.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    So why doesn't god himself adhere to these rules ie love his enemies or those who reject him?

    He loved you so much that He sent His Son Jesus to die for you. God is fully just, and is fully forgiving if we decide to receive it.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Demanding someone obeys your rules is demanding subservience.

    See what I said at the start about this.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    An infinity of punishment for the doings in the merest blip of a lifetime would be like a parent beating the living crap out of, or even killing a child, for being disobedient.

    If you murder someone 30 years ago and you are brought before a court 30 years later it doesn't matter what you've done over the last 30 years, you are still guilty of murder.

    In the same way if you reject God you are guilty of that rejection until you aim to put it right with Him.


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    #222
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    blah.......and love your neighbour as yourself.....
    ....unlless, of course, you dont believe in God, in which case you will burn for eternity.

    Love. Indeed.


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    #223
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    I'm surprised that so many people seem to believe atheism is a kind of religion as well, a belief system.

    That is wrong. An atheist is someone who refuses to believe something that is unbelievable, something for which there is no evidence that can be evaluated. Thus if someone tells me there is a "god", I say "prove it". If someone tells me there is a "Great Barrier Reef", or a nuclear particle called an "electron", I say "prove it". In the latter two cases, they certainly can, and I can check their proof for myself and will have to accept that they are right. That is why some or other poster was actually being silly when he said people "believe in" Richard Dawkins. When he speaks about biological or genetic things, anyone with the requisite competence can check the veracity of what he says. When he speaks about religion, all he is telling people is that they shouldn't believe in the existence of a god, because no one has provided proof that there is. So far, to the best of my knowledge, no one has proved him wrong.:)


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    #224
    Elliemental
    Closed Accounts Posts: 924 ✭✭✭Elliemental


    Saila wrote: »
    isnt it kind of Ironic rediculing all beliefs yet loads of people 'believe' him

    :pac:


    People believe him becuase he uses scientific arguments. He presents evidence, and uses sound reasoning. We don't just believe him becuase he's told us to, or because we think that when we die, we'll burn in hell for ever and ever.


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    #225
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    philologos wrote: »
    God's world is His. We live in it and He has placed certain standards on it. That's pretty much the way that I see it. If we willfully reject His standards we can expect to be punished just as in numerous other areas in which we reject authorities.
    The authorities that would be the closest to the Judeo-Christian god would be totalitarian regimes, demanding one follows their way unquestioned or punishment ensues.
    God doesn't need anyone to love Him rather we need the love of God and to be in a fulfilling relationship with Him in order to have a real wholeness of being.
    You might, but not me.
    Meh. I find that these arguments tend to be built on strawmen personally having read the Bible in depth over the past few years.
    It was after reading the bible that I went down the road of atheism.
    There are many many rules and regulations in the old testament that are basically immoral and cruel, that no "christian" today would ever think of obeying. As I said, we have picked and chosen the ones to obey by our own innate sense.
    We must live on a completely different planet. I find people are more disposed to what is evil rather than what is good.
    Do you include yourself and your family and friends in this?
    He loved you so much that He sent His Son Jesus to die for you. God is fully just, and is fully forgiving if we decide to receive it.
    If he truly loves me he will let me into heaven even if I don't believe he exists.
    If not then his love is finite, consequently he is not a god.
    If you murder someone 30 years ago and you are brought before a court 30 years later it doesn't matter what you've done over the last 30 years, you are still guilty of murder.

    In the same way if you reject God you are guilty of that rejection until you aim to put it right with Him.
    So his love is finite and bounded.


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    #226
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    The authorities that would be the closest to the Judeo-Christian god would be totalitarian regimes, demanding one follows their way unquestioned or punishment ensues.

    Who says unquestioned? Many Biblical figures asked questions of God. That's pretty much what occupies many of the pages of the Bible.

    It's far from a one way dialogue, but it is truly a two way relationship as far as I see it in my daily life and in as far as we can see it running through the lives of Biblical figures. Not that I am comparing myself to any of them.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    You might, but not me.

    Ultimately I think we all do. You may disagree.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    It was after reading the bible that I went down the road of atheism.
    There are many many rules and regulations in the old testament that are basically immoral and cruel, that no "christian" today would ever think of obeying. As I said, we have picked and chosen the ones to obey by our own innate sense.

    It seems like we went in two entirely different directions.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Do you include yourself and your family and friends in this?

    Absolutely, it is a part of the human condition. Looking towards God for guidance helps not to get caught in the ways of the world which in many ways is disposed towards evil.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    If he truly loves me he will let me into heaven even if I don't believe he exists.
    If not then his love is finite, consequently he is not a god.

    Why would He let you into heaven if you have said that you want nothing to do with Him? Rather to the point, why would you want to be with God in heaven if you wanted nothing to do with Him?

    God isn't a vending machine. He wants to see you live in the best way possible in this life and in the next. It is up to you as to whether or not you want to do that.


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    #227
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    philologos wrote: »
    Why would He let you into heaven if you have said that you want nothing to do with Him? Rather to the point, why would you want to be with God in heaven if you wanted nothing to do with Him?
    Absolutely. If you want nothing to do with God (or don't accept He exists), you shouldn't expect Him to let you into heaven.
    By the same token, He shouldn't punish you by sending you to hell. No one could argue with that.


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    #228
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dvpower wrote: »
    Absolutely. If you want nothing to do with God (or don't accept He exists), you shouldn't expect Him to let you into heaven.
    By the same token, He shouldn't punish you by sending you to hell. No one could argue with that.

    I don't see how that follows. If the earth is His, and we violate His standards in it is reasonable to expect that He should punish us. Indeed, even as a Christian I expect God's punishment in this life to bring me towards a greater understanding of Him:
    Hebrews 12:7-11 wrote:
    Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.


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    #229
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I don't see how that follows. If the earth is His, and we violate His standards in it is reasonable to expect that He should punish us. Indeed, even as a Christian I expect God's punishment in this life to bring me towards a greater understanding of Him:
    If the earth is His and he's going to punish for eternity those who don't measure up to his standards, it is reasonable to expect Him to clearly demonstrate
    a) that the earth is His, and
    b) what His standards are.

    Quoting the bible to somone who doesn't accept the bible is nowhere near a clear demonstration.


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    #230
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    As far as I'm concerned in terms of Jesus as a person taking a clear place in the historical timeline He has displayed His standards clearly for all.

    The point of quoting the Bible there was to show that in Christian belief even Christians can expect punishment.


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    #231
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    philologos wrote: »
    As far as I'm concerned in terms of Jesus as a person taking a clear place in the historical timeline He has displayed His standards clearly for all.

    That's as far as you're concerned. It's not clear to me. And it not clear to the vast majority of people.

    'God' needs to do better.


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    #232
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    God sent his only son (who was himself, sort of... But at the same time a different person, kind of...) to die on the cross for all of us? That's not really that great of a sacrafice, philologos. It's kind of pathetic, really.

    1) Condemn humans to be born with original sin (you're going to say it's our own fault, no, it's not)
    2) Send himself/his son to remove this original sin

    If I point a gun at somebody's head I'm not being kind and nice and loving by not pulling the trigger, I'm being a prick. If I condemn humans to be born with original sin, then (kind of...) remove this sin myself, I'm not being kind and nice and loving by removing it, I'm being a prick.


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    #233
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    philologos wrote: »
    Who says unquestioned? Many Biblical figures asked questions of God. That's pretty much what occupies many of the pages of the Bible.

    It's far from a one way dialogue, but it is truly a two way relationship as far as I see it in my daily life and in as far as we can see it running through the lives of Biblical figures. Not that I am comparing myself to any of them.
    Logically there are more points against the existence of deities than there are for, therefore to believe one must not question too hard or god will disappear in a puff of logic.
    Ultimately I think we all do. You may disagree.
    Fair enough.
    It seems like we went in two entirely different directions.
    :)
    Absolutely, it is a part of the human condition. Looking towards God for guidance helps not to get caught in the ways of the world which in many ways is disposed towards evil.
    I know its been done to death, but it seems there is so much evil done in the name of a god that a better rule to follow would be just to treat others as you want them to treat you. Now before you say this is a christian trait, this rule is followed by many many societies not all of them at the behest of a god.
    Why would He let you into heaven if you have said that you want nothing to do with Him? Rather to the point, why would you want to be with God in heaven if you wanted nothing to do with Him?
    It's not a case of not wanting to have anything to do with him, it is a case of not believing he exists, two very different things.
    It is impossible for me to "have something to with" something that doesn't exist.
    If he exists then he himself gave me that ability to rationalise his non-existence, so should not punish me for this non-belief.
    God isn't a vending machine. He wants to see you live in the best way possible in this life and in the next. It is up to you as to whether or not you want to do that.
    Or does he love his creations enough to just sit back and smile at people who don't believe in him and not punish them for using the brain he himself provided.


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    #234
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    http://politico.ie/social-issues/science-tech/7573-richard-dawkins-interview-world-atheist-convention

    Dawkins said he doesnt mind ridiculing other people's beleifs. Im an agnostic but I really dont see the point in constantly maintianing that anyone witha different view of the world to mine is stupid or wrong. Am I missing out on something here If history has taught us anything is intolerance of other people's beliefs has caused a huge amount of suffering in the past.

    Didnlt we already know this. His arrogance is something of an achilles heel. His beliefs are not necessarily the problem, it's how he chooses to express them.


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    #235
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Didnlt we already know this. His arrogance is something of an achilles heel. His beliefs are not necessarily the problem, it's how he chooses to express them.
    Even in this thread we have Christians who believe in a God who will send atheists like Dawkins to hell for an eternity of punishment, simply for not accepting that God exists, and they don't seem to have any problem at all with that.

    It's no wonder that he's robustly critical of these kinds of attitudes.


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    #236
    Osgoodisgood
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭Osgoodisgood


    squod wrote: »
    The stories the likes of Dawkins peddle don't take into account the scale of improbability his theory has. For man to have evolved in this universe a whole load of events would have to occur. We're talking near ∞ to 1 in terms of odds.

    How many big monkeys do you know that can appreciate beauty, art or have an interest in logic, science, ethics? Where did our morality come from? Might all be good fun reading books from this snake oil salesman but ultimately he's deriding you. If someone telling you you're just a big monkey it's because they're trying to make a monkey out of you.

    The odds of misunderstanding statistics at this level are staggering. I'm in awe of your talents.


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    #237
    Bandana boy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,325 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    If there is a god first thing he will do with ye when you get to Heaven is say
    "After I gave you a brain to think for yourself why did you follow/support/partake in all the cruelty and evil done in my name by -insert your particular religion here- ,Say hello to the Devil for me and of to hell with ye now you pious bastard"


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    #238
    Daegerty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭Daegerty


    (massive wall of text goes here nitpicking some person's post)

    Never understood the appeal to militant atheism, wish they'd feck off and get a life tbh.


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    #239
    Osgoodisgood
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭Osgoodisgood


    philologos wrote: »
    How is there a problem with Christianity? Based on a before and after analysis of my Christian faith I've seen a whole lot more positives than negatives on a personal level in terms of how I live.


    But that doesn't make it true does it. It just means you like your new lifestyle.


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    #240
    Matthew23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭Matthew23


    Osgoodisgood wrote: »
    But that doesn't make it true does it. It just means you like your new lifestyle.

    if u wanna ignore the goodness of religion u can do whatever you want , doesnt matter to people of fate

    Mat23


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    #241
    flutterflye
    Registered Users Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭flutterflye


    Matthew23 wrote: »
    if u wanna ignore the goodness of religion u can do whatever you want , doesnt matter to people of fate

    Mat23

    Clearly it does when they continue to prey [sic] for us!


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