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When atheists go too far

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    #782
    Antikythera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 214 ✭✭Antikythera


    philologos wrote: »
    If God created the laws of physics or biology or chemistry as far as I'm concerned it isn't a huge leap to suggest that He could manipulate these properties if He so desired.

    With respect, if we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs... if we had any eggs.


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    #783
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    Let's have a more accurate quotation less your spin:

    Sure, or we could enbolden some different bits.
    philologos wrote: »
    I have answered very clearly: I don't think anyone should go to hell however if people reject God they will. This is just, but I don't think anyone should go there. They should have the wisdom to make the right decision.

    Try this quotation and tell me if this view is acceptable.
    I don't think anyone should be raped, however if people reject my sexual advances they will. This is just, but I don't think anyone should be raped. They should have the wisdom to make the right decision.


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    #784
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    super_furry wrote: »
    Yes but both sides are so fervant in their beliefs/lake of beliefs that both arguments/insults bounce back off them. Neither side is ever going to convince the other that they're wrong and they're both wasting breath is trying to do so.
    I am not trying to convince Jakkass/Phililogos. He is so utterly deluded, it is pointless.


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    #785
    Mark200
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    philologos wrote: »
    He paid for the sins of mankind on the cross so that we wouldn't have to. According to Christianity (particularly emphasised in Romans 6 if you want to look it up) as Jesus died on the cross our old selves died with Him, and as He was resurrected we came to new life in Him.

    Instead of having the elaborate plan of sending down jesus to be crucified for our sins so we wouldn't have to, could god not just have changed the rules?


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    #786
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Jakkass, if you don't think anyone should go to hell, does that mean you think god is wrong to send people there?


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    #787
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Instead of having the elaborate plan of sending down jesus to be crucified for our sins so we wouldn't have to, could god not just have changed the rules?

    He decided to do it the way He did presumably because it was the best way possible. It is considerably clearer to us that our sin had a price and that God forgave us.

    I don't see why this is a huge difficulty because it doesn't seem that if God did "just change the rules" that you would believe.
    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Jakkass, if you don't think anyone should go to hell, does that mean you think god is wrong to send people there?

    No, it means that people are wrong for rejecting Him.


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    #788
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower wrote: »
    Try this quotation and tell me if this view is acceptable.

    It's not comparable at all with rape. God is Lord over the universe, He has given us standards for our benefit and will punish us if we turn away from Him. Much like other authorities. I can't cry to the judge if I am arrested and claim that the law is unjust.

    You've brought up a different point that clarifies some things. The major difference between you and I is that I believe that God's has legitimate authority over this universe and you don't. That changes a lot of how we regard the idea of God's judgement of mankind.


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    #789
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    Antikythera wrote: »
    So you don't subscribe to the theory of original sin?

    How could anyone subscribe to such a ridiculous notion? How could I possibly be guilty of even something that my father did before I was born, not to mention whatever Adam and Eve did that got the sky fairy's back up way back when? Surely guilt presupposes that the perpetrator of a wrong is aware of what he or she is doing and can choose whether or not to go ahead and do it?

    But religion is really all about guilt. That is the weapon the priestly castes use to keep their flocks of sheeple under control so that they can enjoy the privileges, wealth and power that they love so much.

    They always need more money, which begs the question of why the sky fairy, who we are told by the god-botherers really loves us, won't allow them to do like we are told - rather implausibly - JC did - feed a multitude with a few fish and loaves of bread. And turned water into wine.

    Just send around a sky pilot and have him turn a bucketful of water into a nice Pinot Noir for me and I'll believe anything, too. :p


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    #790
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    No, it means that people are wrong for rejecting Him.

    Yes, and people are wrong for rejecting my sexual advances. I dont want to rape them at all. Right, Jakkass?
    I don't think anyone should be raped, however if people reject my sexual advances they will. This is just, but I don't think anyone should be raped. They should have the wisdom to make the right decision.
    philologos wrote: »
    . I can't cry to the judge if I am arrested and claim that the law is unjust. .
    If a judge imposed a punishment of eternal pain & suffering, for a thought-crime, would you consider him evil?


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    #791
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    But religion is really all about guilt. That is the weapon the priestly castes use to keep their flocks of sheeple under control so that they can enjoy the privileges, wealth and power that they love so much.

    A huge generalisation of all religion and of all Christianity. There are churches that exist without any form of heirarchy. There are churches where the congregation are involved in leading worship. There are many ways that the churches are structured and it isn't always about a pastor or a priest speaking to a congregation.

    Secondly your claim that the "priestly caste" whatever that means keep their congregation under control this isn't simply true. One can do a lot to make sure that they aren't being manipulated. If one has a good working knowledge of the Bible one can challenge ones priest or pastor if they try to deviate from Biblical truth or use excessive control.

    As for money some churches don't even pay their pastors.
    drkpower wrote: »
    Yes, and people are wrong for rejecting my sexual advances. I dont want to rape them at all. Right, Jakkass?

    I've dealt with this point already. It's evidently fallacious.


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    #792
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I've dealt with this point already. It's evidently fallacious.

    Why?

    I dont want to rape anyone, Jakkass, right?
    I don't think anyone should be raped, however if people reject my sexual advances they will. This is just, but I don't think anyone should be raped. They should have the wisdom to make the right decision.

    And God doesnt want to send anyone to hell, Jakkass, right?
    I don't think anyone should go to hell however if people reject God they will. This is just, but I don't think anyone should go there. They should have the wisdom to make the right decision.


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    #793
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I've posted very clearly as to why I disagree with that argument and you've gone and totally ignored it. Fantastic... Do you want to have a discussion or are you more interested in re-reading what you've just said?

    Either civil and fair discussion or no discussion.


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    #794
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I've posted very clearly as to why I disagree with that argument and you've gone and totally ignored it. Fantastic... Do you want to have a discussion or are you more interested in re-reading what you've just said?
    That is not an answer.

    Answer this, Jakkass?. In this example, do I want to rape anyone?
    I don't think anyone should be raped, however if people reject my sexual advances they will. This is just, but I don't think anyone should be raped. They should have the wisdom to make the right decision.


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    #795
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I can't cry to the judge if I am arrested and claim that the law is unjust.
    Of course you can, if it is unjust. And any normal person can plainly see that subjecting someone to eternal pain and suggering for not believing in God is absolutely unjust.

    I'm confident that even you can see it is unjust. If the authorities in Ireland were to pass a law to punish people for non belief, would you think it an unjust law?


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    #796
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    Either civil and fair discussion or no discussion.
    Civil....?!!?!:D

    You want me, and many of my friends and family, to burn in hell for eternity.


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    #797
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    philologos wrote: »
    No, it means that people are wrong for rejecting Him.

    So god is right to send people to hell if they reject him?

    I don't see how you can say that and at the same time also say that you don't think anyone should be sent to hell? They appear to be contradictory to me.


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    #798
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower: OK, since you've effectively ignored my post I don't see what else you expect me to discuss. I'm not going to waste my time.
    dvpower wrote: »
    Of course you can, if it is unjust. And any normal person can plainly see that subjecting someone to eternal pain and suggering for not believing in God is absolutely unjust.

    Indeed, if.


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    #799
    ihateirony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭ihateirony


    I'd just like to point out that you're all making a mistake here. I created the universe and set the standards that you should all live by and if you don't believe me you should just read my book, it says that I did it so it's true. If you reject me I'll send you to tethos (hell isn't real) and that will be just.


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    #800
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    drkpower: OK, since you've effectively ignored my post I don't see what else you expect me to discuss. I'm not going to waste my time.

    Your 'answer' did nothing to address my question. I asked you whether a this statement is acceptable or objectionable.
    I don't think anyone should be raped, however if people reject my sexual advances they will. This is just, but I don't think anyone should be raped. They should have the wisdom to make the right decision

    You started rabitting on about god.

    Would you like to comment on whether my statement is acceptable or objectionable? Or would you like to hide behind god again?


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    #801
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    So god is right to send people to hell if they reject him?

    I don't see how you can say that and at the same time also say that you don't think anyone should be sent to hell? They appear to be contradictory to me.
    He thinks they should turn to God to be saved from hell.

    Of course that option isn't open to anyone who has already died. So, for example, if you had an atheist relative die recently, philologos believes that they are destined for an eternity of punishment in hell, and he thinks this is a just punishment. It's all pretty sickening.


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    #802
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    philologos wrote: »
    Indeed, if.
    Since you think an eternity of suffering in hell is a just punishment for being an atheist, would you support some kind of punishment for atheists on Earth (if you had your way)?


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    #803
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ^^ No. I would hope that all people seriously thought about Christ. You're presenting it as if it is a me versus you issue, but it really isn't because I'm as deserving of hell in my opinion as anyone else is.


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    #804
    ihateirony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭ihateirony


    Actually, serious post now, if I'm raised in a country where everyone's atheist and nobody has ever heard of God does that mean we all go to hell when we die? Because if God chose for me to be born there that's a tad harsh


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    #805
    Mark200
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    philologos wrote: »
    He decided to do it the way He did presumably because it was the best way possible. It is considerably clearer to us that our sin had a price and that God forgave us.

    Sin had a high price? And who supposedly set that price? Oh yeah, god. It's quite self-evident that god could have simply decided himself that there is no longer a price for sin, or that we would no longer have to pay for it.

    philologos wrote: »
    I don't see why this is a huge difficulty because it doesn't seem that if God did "just change the rules" that you would believe.
    Of course I wouldn't believe, I'm just pointing out just one of the absolute absurdities in the Christian belief. And your justification is equally absurd - 'it must have been the best way because thats how my god did it'.


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    #806
    Antikythera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 214 ✭✭Antikythera


    dvpower wrote: »
    He thinks they should turn to God to be saved from hell.

    Of course that option isn't open to anyone who has already died. So, for example, if you had an atheist relative die recently, philologos believes that they are destined for an eternity of punishment in hell, and he thinks this is a just punishment. It's all pretty sickening.

    I dunno, hell sounds pretty cool! I'd rather be there fornicating and gallivanting than sitting on a cloud playing a fkn harp!


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    #807
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ihateirony wrote: »
    Actually, serious post now, if I'm raised in a country where everyone's atheist and nobody has ever heard of God does that mean we all go to hell when we die? Because if God chose for me to be born there that's a tad harsh
    I think there's a get out of jail card for people who never heard of God. afaik eternal damnation is for those who had some knowledge of God but didn't submit to him.


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    #808
    Mark200
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    dvpower wrote: »
    I think there's a get out of jail card for people who never heard of God. afaik eternal damnation is for those who had some knowledge of God but didn't submit to him.

    Ah that's convenient, so if everyone in the world becomes atheist and doesn't tell their children about the history of belief in god(s) then everyone will go to heaven :)


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    #809
    ihateirony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭ihateirony


    dvpower wrote: »
    I think there's a get out of jail card for people who never heard of God. afaik eternal damnation is for those who had some knowledge of God but didn't submit to him.

    But like, where's the line drawn? Like if I hear someone mention it in the streets, but no info on it and keep walking, to I go to hell then? Or what if someone misrepresents God and I reject him based on that? Do I go to hell then?


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    #810
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Ah that's convenient, so if everyone in the world becomes atheist and doesn't tell their children about the history of belief in god(s) then everyone will go to heaven :)

    If we could just persuade the current generations to take one for the team and never mention God again, then it seems future generation might be saved.
    God might throw a spanner in the works 'though.;)


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    #811
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower wrote: »
    You want me, and many of my friends and family, to burn in hell for eternity.

    For the umpteenth time that isn't what I want at all. I don't want that for anyone.

    Honestly you should be a tabloid writer. You can make anything out of what people say.


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