Garda Stabbed in Cork City

Manic Moran · 27-05-2011 4:27pm

Whilst this is true, it does not automatically imply that the criticisms are wrong.

NTM

BrianD · 27-05-2011 5:10pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

It might be a suggestion that its easy to be an expert on the gardai`s mistakes from the couch at home.

Yes it is but this is a discussion board and I'm entitled to have an opinion and voice it here. I don't have to be an economist to have an opinion on the economy etc.

In any case, I didn't describe the actions of AGS as "mistakes" - perhaps that's what you see them as - I took the view that there was a lack of tactics or methodology deployed. A mistake implies that there was a standard to be followed in the first place.

Bosh · 27-05-2011 6:43pm

Terrontress wrote: »

Where public safety is concerned, especially when provided by a public body, we all have the right to expess an opinion.

You stay in the ditch if you want to son but don't try to downgrade the opinions of others.

Indeed, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but many comments have gone beyond mere opinion.

And try and be a little less patronising, I'm not your 'son'

Manic Moran · 27-05-2011 10:17pm

I decided to share the 8-minute video with a couple of people here in the office who are far more qualified than I am to kibbitz from the bench. One is a former chief of police of a moderately sized city (pop 750,000) and is currently the Federal Security Director for a Cat 1 airport (and three smaller ones). The other never made it above beat cop in uniform, but her current job is to be in charge of inspecting the security of those airports, plus bus and train systems in the region.

To put it bluntly, both had good laughs and were absolutely incredulous at what they saw.

As one pointed out, even if the plan was to simply let the guy play around until he got bored or ran out of gas, why did they encourage him and chase him with a couple of cars and a fire truck? That said, both were agreed that if it were here, the car would have been rammed or shot up in fairly short order.

NTM

eroo · 27-05-2011 11:10pm

In fairness, the US law enforcement agencies aren't exactly perfect either. Over here we don't have the option to ram the car. Did you ask them what they would do in the likely scenario that a Garda car rammed the jeep, then 2 members end up seriously injured or dead? I wouldn't fancy being in the Mondeo when it goes head to head with a 4x4.

kub · 28-05-2011 12:26am

Manic Moran wrote: »

I decided to share the 8-minute video with a couple of people here in the office who are far more qualified than I am to kibbitz from the bench. One is a former chief of police of a moderately sized city (pop 750,000) and is currently the Federal Security Director for a Cat 1 airport (and three smaller ones). The other never made it above beat cop in uniform, but her current job is to be in charge of inspecting the security of those airports, plus bus and train systems in the region.

To put it bluntly, both had good laughs and were absolutely incredulous at what they saw.

As one pointed out, even if the plan was to simply let the guy play around until he got bored or ran out of gas, why did they encourage him and chase him with a couple of cars and a fire truck? That said, both were agreed that if it were here, the car would have been rammed or shot up in fairly short order.

NTM

I am delighted that Cork Gardai have proved to be such an amusement for ye. Of course this is little Ireland, we are not as Perfect as you folks over there in the US. Now I could go on all night about the problems which your country has and the ones we have and the various differences in our laws etc.
I am sure that quite a few of the AGS who were after that individual, would loved to have shot him, but thankfully both for them and the rest of our society they are goverened by the laws of this little country.
Also please bear in mind, our Patrol cars are only little family saloons, not quite the vehicles you have over there in your perfect country.

Corcioch · 28-05-2011 12:35am

I must say im astounded at the level of complete ignorance masquerading as posts here. Experts who clearly have no day to day policing experience, but can come up with all sorts of great ideas ( based loosely on reality ) sitting comfortably on their sofa at home behind their PC watching the video . . . . .

Stingers, TPAC rolling blocks etc etc . . . .People advocating these tactics clearly have NO IDEA of the strict circumstances where these can and cannot be used . . . .

As for the ramming advocates, more pie in the sky. Posts no doubt by persons who have never actually been in a ramming. I have been rammed several times by stolen cars . . .one incident was particularly bad. Rammings are extremely dangerous . . . .

More critisism of Garda Training. While I agree there needs be far more training of more members . . ..I cannot fathom how anyone could have dreamt up this scenario in advance and trained for it . . . .

If Gardaí were to train for every crazy possiblity then they would never finish training and get to go to work.

This was a complete one off incident, there is no training manual to refer to for this one, and members did their level best to deal with the situation, reacting under pressure as events unfolded ( not on their comfy couch at home days later ) . . . .

The guy was detained, there was little further injury, if any etc etc . . . It was a good outcome.

Its easy to sit and watch it now and pick holes in it . . . .and come up with all sorts of hair-brained expert opinion, devoid of practical experience and realism . . on what should have been done.

Corcioch · 28-05-2011 12:41am

Manic Moran wrote: »

I decided to share the 8-minute video with a couple of people here in the office who are far more qualified than I am to kibbitz from the bench. One is a former chief of police of a moderately sized city (pop 750,000) and is currently the Federal Security Director for a Cat 1 airport (and three smaller ones). The other never made it above beat cop in uniform, but her current job is to be in charge of inspecting the security of those airports, plus bus and train systems in the region.

To put it bluntly, both had good laughs and were absolutely incredulous at what they saw.

As one pointed out, even if the plan was to simply let the guy play around until he got bored or ran out of gas, why did they encourage him and chase him with a couple of cars and a fire truck? That said, both were agreed that if it were here, the car would have been rammed or shot up in fairly short order.

NTM

Glad to hear it, im delighted to hear Gardaí in Ireland act completely differently to US Police.

I suppose over there he'd have been shot 233,673 times. Killed stone dead.

Well guess what, we took him alive . . .a far better outcome.

kub · 28-05-2011 12:46am

Corcioch wrote: »

I must say im astounded at the level of complete ignorance masquerading as posts here. Experts who clearly have no day to day policing experience, but can come up with all sorts of great ideas ( based loosely on reality ) sitting comfortably on their sofa at home behind their PC watching the video . . . . .

Stingers, TPAC rolling blocks etc etc . . . .People advocating these tactics clearly have NO IDEA of the strict circumstances where these can and cannot be used . . . .

As for the ramming advocates, more pie in the sky. Posts no doubt by persons who have never actually been in a ramming. I have been rammed several times by stolen cars . . .one incident was particularly bad. Rammings are extremely dangerous . . . .

More critisism of Garda Training. While I agree there needs be far more training of more members . . ..I cannot fathom how anyone could have dreamt up this scenario in advance and trained for it . . . .

If Gardaí were to train for every crazy possiblity then they would never finish training and get to go to work.

This was a complete one off incident, there is no training manual to refer to for this one, and members did their level best to deal with the situation, reacting under pressure as events unfolded ( not on their comfy couch at home days later ) . . . .

The guy was detained, there was little further injury, if any etc etc . . . It was a good outcome.

Its easy to sit and watch it now and pick holes in it . . . .and come up with all sorts of hair-brained expert opinion, devoid of practical experience and realism . . on what should have been done.

Well put, I think its a case of too many Walter Mitty type, bored and know all, security men with internet access posting on this thread.
Put them all in uniforms and send them out on the beat on their own on any weekend night, in any Irish city and lets see how they get on.

kub · 28-05-2011 12:52am

Corcioch wrote: »

Glad to hear it, im delighted to hear Gardaí in Ireland act completely differently to US Police.

I suppose over there he'd have been shot 233,673 times. Killed stone dead.

Well guess what, we took him alive . . .a far better outcome.

Shot is that all? They probably would have thought it was the Taliban and would have called in the USAF.
At least we have the suspect alive and all the vehicles can be repaired, now imagine what would have been left of an American airport if it had happened over there.
OOPS sorry, I forgot.....it couldn't have, they are perfect!!!

CB19Kevo · 28-05-2011 4:30am

After looking through the latest videos posted of the incident i do believe it dragged on too long and put too many in danger over that period.
I dont know or wont even try to suggest how a outcome could have been achieved quicker but given that this could have been a potential terror threat i feel it is vital for lessons to be taken from this incident.

Again well done to the officers involved for the arrest of this criminal under tough and uncharted conditions but i would just hope that should a similar incident ever occour again that there would be immediate end to protect the greater public.

Terrontress · 28-05-2011 7:36am

I must admit that I am always fond of Manic Moran's comments and the international element that he brings to the table is welcomed by me for one. I don't think the sarcastic comments above do anyone any good.

Back on topic, could several Garda vehicles have been used to herd the rogue driver toward a stinger without having to resort to ramming him?

Manic Moran · 28-05-2011 8:42am

eroo wrote: »

In fairness, the US law enforcement agencies aren't exactly perfect either. Over here we don't have the option to ram the car. Did you ask them what they would do in the likely scenario that a Garda car rammed the jeep, then 2 members end up seriously injured or dead? I wouldn't fancy being in the Mondeo when it goes head to head with a 4x4.

I suggest that would probably not be the best way to contact the Toyota. I presume the effects wouldn't be too much different if a Dodge Charger hit a Chevy Tahoe, which happens from time to time in these parts. I understand that you don't likely don't have permission to ram the car, but there is no reason to believe that that isn't an option which should be on the table.

am delighted that Cork Gardai have proved to be such an amusement for ye

Well, the Cork Airport Fire Service and Airport Police helped out too, you can't have the Gards taking all the credit for it.

we are not as Perfect as you folks over there in the US

Nobody claimed the US was perfect, now. But neither are US police incompetent, or have a goal other than public service. Their techniques are worth considering.

Well guess what, we took him alive . . .a far better outcome.

I agree it is. However, his having been taken alive would have been a small consolation had the man gone about three feet to one side and nailed those two chaps on the ground who ran out of his way. I submit that the primary concern should not be the protection of the individual causing the problem, but the protection of everyone else who has done nothing wrong but to be innocently in the wrong place at the right time.

NTM

POGAN · 28-05-2011 9:07am

Corcioch wrote: »

I must say im astounded at the level of complete ignorance masquerading as posts here. Experts who clearly have no day to day policing experience, but can come up with all sorts of great ideas ( based loosely on reality ) sitting comfortably on their sofa at home behind their PC watching the video . . . . .

Stingers, TPAC rolling blocks etc etc . . . .People advocating these tactics clearly have NO IDEA of the strict circumstances where these can and cannot be used . . . .

As for the ramming advocates, more pie in the sky. Posts no doubt by persons who have never actually been in a ramming. I have been rammed several times by stolen cars . . .one incident was particularly bad. Rammings are extremely dangerous . . . .

More critisism of Garda Training. While I agree there needs be far more training of more members . . ..I cannot fathom how anyone could have dreamt up this scenario in advance and trained for it . . . .

If Gardaí were to train for every crazy possiblity then they would never finish training and get to go to work.

This was a complete one off incident, there is no training manual to refer to for this one, and members did their level best to deal with the situation, reacting under pressure as events unfolded ( not on their comfy couch at home days later ) . . . .

The guy was detained, there was little further injury, if any etc etc . . . It was a good outcome.

Its easy to sit and watch it now and pick holes in it . . . .and come up with all sorts of hair-brained expert opinion, devoid of practical experience and realism . . on what should have been done.

+1 Well Said

mcgarrett · 28-05-2011 10:33am

Terrontress wrote: »

Back on topic, could several Garda vehicles have been used to herd the rogue driver toward a stinger without having to resort to ramming him?

Like the farmer used to do on that old BBC programme "One man and his dog"?
Where the collies herded the sheep through sets of gates.:D

Go back and watch the video and see if you can envisage how such a manouevre could be co-ordinated and executed.

Not like a road where he is confined by barriers or ditches, here he has the equivalent of four or 5 football pitches to play bumpers as long as he wants with anything that comes near him.

And the rest of you lay off Manic, they are entitled to a little laugh over there, it will balance out the sheer hilarity that took place here when baracks car
decided it doesn't do ramps.

And that was with the benefit of advanced planning :eek:

goldie fish · 28-05-2011 11:45am

kub wrote: »

I am delighted that Cork Gardai have proved to be such an amusement for ye. Of course this is little Ireland, we are not as Perfect as you folks over there in the US. Now I could go on all night about the problems which your country has and the ones we have and the various differences in our laws etc.
I am sure that quite a few of the AGS who were after that individual, would loved to have shot him, but thankfully both for them and the rest of our society they are goverened by the laws of this little country.
Also please bear in mind, our Patrol cars are only little family saloons, not quite the vehicles you have over there in your perfect country.

That's pretty unfair.Not that manic needs to be defended but...
I have known manic for some years and although he may wear a US uniform and live in the US now, (and has a strange US accent) those who know him would consider his opinions that of an Irishman, as he lived most of his life here.
He is providing an objectivity that those here who have barely set foot outside their own city, do not have.
Nobody is perfect of course, but there is no harm in getting an external viewpoint, comparing it with the local one, and finding a middle ground somewhere.

As an aside, I knew an Airport Policeman in Cork(since retired) who thought Die Hard 2 was the most hilarious load of fiction ever, for the simple reason being what happened in that US airports fictional takeover scenario, could not happen here, as airport security was much tighter..

audidiesel · 28-05-2011 12:07pm

Locust wrote: »

In my humble opinion, this case is another argument for...
1. Reinforced Ram/Bull bars on Garda vehicles

they wont spend the money, even if they did. if used, the guard would be lucky to see a drivers seat ever again. there simply is no budget for squad cars. (those 11 avensis's were only bought as they had absolutely no choice as the fleet was collapsing)

Locust wrote: »

And contrary to what i mentioned about firearms, dare i say it, for the deterrent factor:-

3. 9mm glocks for uniform members, to deter lunatics and crims from hijacking them! along with the appropriate training). I think a glock would compliment the uniform nicely!

guards use sig's when they are armed. glocks are for americans

Terrontress · 28-05-2011 12:31pm

mcgarrett wrote: »

Like the farmer used to do on that old BBC programme "One man and his dog"?
Where the collies herded the sheep through sets of gates.:D

That is exactly it!

I had thought that if there were numerous ES vehicles, provided the driver's behaviour was to drive away from them, they could corral him to a certain place.

It would need a centralised command and good communication between cars though.

stockyboie · 28-05-2011 3:59pm

Corcioch wrote: »

I must say im astounded at the level of complete ignorance masquerading as posts here. Experts who clearly have no day to day policing experience, but can come up with all sorts of great ideas ( based loosely on reality ) sitting comfortably on their sofa at home behind their PC watching the video . . . . .

Stingers, TPAC rolling blocks etc etc . . . .People advocating these tactics clearly have NO IDEA of the strict circumstances where these can and cannot be used . . . .

As for the ramming advocates, more pie in the sky. Posts no doubt by persons who have never actually been in a ramming. I have been rammed several times by stolen cars . . .one incident was particularly bad. Rammings are extremely dangerous . . . .

More critisism of Garda Training. While I agree there needs be far more training of more members . . ..I cannot fathom how anyone could have dreamt up this scenario in advance and trained for it . . . .

If Gardaí were to train for every crazy possiblity then they would never finish training and get to go to work.

This was a complete one off incident, there is no training manual to refer to for this one, and members did their level best to deal with the situation, reacting under pressure as events unfolded ( not on their comfy couch at home days later ) . . . .

The guy was detained, there was little further injury, if any etc etc . . . It was a good outcome.

Its easy to sit and watch it now and pick holes in it . . . .and come up with all sorts of hair-brained expert opinion, devoid of practical experience and realism . . on what should have been done.

This is defintely the best posting so far on this issue. i agree that its always a case of 'why didn't they do this' in hindsight. Something people are forgetting is this guy was on an open airport runway not on a motorway so executing a rolling roadblock would be very hard in such a large open space. On a motorway or highway a rolling roadblock takes a lot of experience of the police driver and an exact set of circumstances to be present i.e a car to be driving in straight line at an exact speed not to mention the coordination of other drivers. This guy was just driving so eratically that situation would have been very difficult to execute.

You couldn't just put down a stinger either because the guy would see you doing it and just drive out of the way.

The other option was to open fire on the cars wheels which would be very difficult to do in such a situation. You'd also be opening fire in the middle of an airport with airport employees around, planes and fuel trucks in the vicinity.

One thing im still advocating that would have definetly helped them in this situation is push bars on the front of there patrol cars. This would have definetly helped them end the incident quicker and safer. What was needed in this situation was a corordinated effort by different police cars or large vehicle like a suv with push bars to take turns in ramming and attempting to spin the jeep and knocking it off course then the other vehicles to swarm it and box it in once it lost control. Of course this is very difficult to do and the jeep would have had to have been a safe distance from any surrounding people, airport vehicles or planes.

Also comparing the states policing to irelands is ridiculous. We don't have many incidents like this and so our police are much less experienced in dealing with things like this. In the usa this type of incident is commonplace and even cops in the usa have problems with all their training dealing with eratic incidents like this. Also there are much more strict rules and regulations regarding the use of firearms in ireland and indeed europe in general. Police don't just open fire on civillians like in the usa or south america unless the situation becomes very serious.

Even though they were under orders to take this guy out i have to commend them for the patience shown in not actually opening fire on him.

Still having said all that i do think the gardai need more training in the area of pursuits and resolutions in general and don't agree that you can recieve too much training. You can never recieve too much training. I would say the gardai never trained at all for high speed pursuits which is a worry regardless of the bizarre nature of this incident.

I do think they will learn from this and make the expected changes to help them deal with situations like this should they arise again.

stockyboie · 28-05-2011 4:24pm

angelfire9 wrote: »

:eek:

Personally, I would be completely against the idea of arming the Gardai (other than D Branch RSU etc)

If the scumbags know that the Gardai have handguns they will start using machine guns.....
In the case of robberies or assaults more scum will shoot first and run like hell giving the Gardai no chance to apprehend them (particularly repeat offenders who face long sentences if arrested and convicted for whatever crime they are doing this time)

Blanket arming of the Gardai is a HORRIBLE idea IMHO
We are lucky in Ireland that incidents like this are few and far between

Arming the Gardai will only result in an increase in serious injuries to members

the criminals will start using machine guns? No offense and seriously i don't mean offense but honestly what planet are you living on. Criminals in ireland have been using machine guns since the 1980s. You speaking as if criminals had a moral code or something. LMAO. Yes they sit around the table going 'guys guys we better not use machine guns coz u know the gardai don't use guns'

Do you think criminals respect the law or gardai just because they are unarmed. Comon. Why don't you ask any serving member of the force if thats the case? There have been many incidents of criminals shooting at gardai as soon as they show up on the scene regardless of wheither they are unarmed or not. Gardai are also assaulted and seriously injured regularly or haven't you been watching the news in say the past 10 years. Do some research or at least show a little knowledge of the reality of things.

Im not advocating blanket arming the gardai. Did i say that? If i did what i meant to say is that guns should be stored in patrol cars in a locked compartment to deal with incidents like this should the need arise. Noone should be expected to show up at a scene like this or at an armed robbery with no defence. Criminals don't rob banks with bananas you know. Also waiting for 20 minutes for the rsu to show up is not good practice. Many injuries or even deaths can result in the time period in between. Its just luck in this particular incident the guy didn't hit anyone although he came close a few times.

Im not saying beat officers should carry guns because i don't agree with that given the level of alcohol fueled violence in ireland but definetly more common sense policing is required.

Bruthal · 28-05-2011 4:46pm

You asked this

BrianD wrote: »

Can you state the relevance of this dictionary definition to this thread, please?

I simply suggested that the poaster meant this

robbie7730 wrote: »

It might be a suggestion that its easy to be an expert on the gardai`s mistakes from the couch at home.

BrianD wrote: »

Yes it is but this is a discussion board and I'm entitled to have an opinion and voice it here. I don't have to be an economist to have an opinion on the economy etc.

In any case, I didn't describe the actions of AGS as "mistakes" - perhaps that's what you see them as - I took the view that there was a lack of tactics or methodology deployed. A mistake implies that there was a standard to be followed in the first place.

I never posted any opinion about anyones posts in this thread, just made a suggestion as to what another poster may have meant, when you asked what the relevance of his post was.

BrianD · 28-05-2011 8:14pm

Corcioch wrote: »

I must say im astounded at the level of complete ignorance masquerading as posts here. Experts who clearly have no day to day policing experience, but can come up with all sorts of great ideas ( based loosely on reality ) sitting comfortably on their sofa at home behind their PC watching the video . . . . .

Stingers, TPAC rolling blocks etc etc . . . .People advocating these tactics clearly have NO IDEA of the strict circumstances where these can and cannot be used . . . .

As for the ramming advocates, more pie in the sky. Posts no doubt by persons who have never actually been in a ramming. I have been rammed several times by stolen cars . . .one incident was particularly bad. Rammings are extremely dangerous . . . .

I think you'll find that there's quite a reasonable discussion of various tactics that may have been deployed on the day. I have acknowledged that even with the best preparedness and training in the world that is no guarantee of success.

You're very right about something - I would not like to have been sitting in any of the vehicles on the apron in Cork and especially so when I would know that nobody else has any training on how to bring the chase to a conclusion.

More critisism of Garda Training. While I agree there needs be far more training of more members . . ..I cannot fathom how anyone could have dreamt up this scenario in advance and trained for it . . . .

Why not take the criticism? Training is required. We have every right to be critical of what happened at Cork. The very defensive remarks from some posters really underline the fact that there is little or no training for vehicle pursuits. In the absence of such training, many members of AGS would have as much experience of it as me - watching it on Road Wars.

I would have thought that a vehicle incursion onto an airfield would be something that the Airport Police would have trained for? As somebody else pointed out - it's not that first time that it's happened worldwide.

If Gardaí were to train for every crazy possiblity then they would never finish training and get to go to work.

I have often heard people state that we train for every eventuality. Break it down what are the scenarios - motorway/highway. urban areas, rural areas and uncontained areas.

This was a complete one off incident, there is no training manual to refer to for this one, and members did their level best to deal with the situation, reacting under pressure as events unfolded ( not on their comfy couch at home days later ) . . . .

The guy was detained, there was little further injury, if any etc etc . . . It was a good outcome.

He was detained because of good fortune.

Its easy to sit and watch it now and pick holes in it . . . .and come up with all sorts of hair-brained expert opinion, devoid of practical experience and realism . . on what should have been done.

I would though that there was a lack of practical experience evident on the apron of Cork airport and actions that I would have classed as "hair brained".

But let me put it to you - are you happy what happened? Was the situation beyond the realms of current training? What techniques were deployed (or not deployed) on the day? Could it have been done differently?

Manic Moran · 29-05-2011 6:40am

To address some of the relatively hyperbolic comments about the US police calling in airstrikes, an incident at Love Field a year or two ago is an interesting counterpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0BIpb6_zc4

The escaping driver was in a fairly large vehicle, a pickup truck. He was impacted broadside by a Chevy Impala, not much bigger than a Mondeo at 1.5 ton curb weight, in the correct location at the axle.

Note the following points:
The guy was pretty much restricted in where he could go by being boxed in. Left was the only direction, which presented the broadside target.
As soon as the vehicle was spun, it was immediately closely surrounded by other vehicles to stop him getting going again.
The driver of the pick-up truck was sufficiently unharmed to be able to walk to the police car on his own two feet.
The driver of the police car which hit him (which didn't have the benefit of crumple zones because of the fixed push-bar) seemed to survive the knock well enough to partake in the actual arrest.
No shots were fired, nobody was killed, and no vehicles the size of tanks were needed.

This is an excessive an un-necessary way of doing business? I am not au fait with DPD training, but I'll wager they have about as much training on stopping vehicles on airfields as most other cops. Which is to say, not much.

NTM

angelfire9 · 29-05-2011 10:17am

stockyboie wrote: »

the criminals will start using machine guns? No offense and seriously i don't mean offense but honestly what planet are you living on. Criminals in ireland have been using machine guns since the 1980s. You speaking as if criminals had a moral code or something. LMAO. Yes they sit around the table going 'guys guys we better not use machine guns coz u know the gardai don't use guns'

Do you think criminals respect the law or gardai just because they are unarmed. Comon. Why don't you ask any serving member of the force if thats the case? There have been many incidents of criminals shooting at gardai as soon as they show up on the scene regardless of wheither they are unarmed or not. Gardai are also assaulted and seriously injured regularly or haven't you been watching the news in say the past 10 years. Do some research or at least show a little knowledge of the reality of things.

Im not advocating blanket arming the gardai. Did i say that? If i did what i meant to say is that guns should be stored in patrol cars in a locked compartment to deal with incidents like this should the need arise. Noone should be expected to show up at a scene like this or at an armed robbery with no defence. Criminals don't rob banks with bananas you know. Also waiting for 20 minutes for the rsu to show up is not good practice. Many injuries or even deaths can result in the time period in between. Its just luck in this particular incident the guy didn't hit anyone although he came close a few times.

Im not saying beat officers should carry guns because i don't agree with that given the level of alcohol fueled violence in ireland but definetly more common sense policing is required.

I am well aware of the risks that Gardai face from fire arms in the hands of criminals
I have lived with cops my entire life (my father now retired was involved in the Brendan Patrick O'Donnell Case where a Garda was actually injured from shots fired by O'Donnell, my husband is a serving member)

My point was (which you appear to have missed entirely) if you routinely arm gardai even through having guns locked in quad cars then the criminals will get bigger, better fire power and more gardai will lose their lives

29-05-2011 12:03pm

Corcioch wrote: »

I must say im astounded at the level of complete ignorance masquerading as posts here. Experts who clearly have no day to day policing experience, but can come up with all sorts of great ideas ( based loosely on reality ) sitting comfortably on their sofa at home behind their PC watching the video . . . . .

Stingers, TPAC rolling blocks etc etc . . . .People advocating these tactics clearly have NO IDEA of the strict circumstances where these can and cannot be used . . . .

As for the ramming advocates, more pie in the sky. Posts no doubt by persons who have never actually been in a ramming. I have been rammed several times by stolen cars . . .one incident was particularly bad. Rammings are extremely dangerous . . . .

More critisism of Garda Training. While I agree there needs be far more training of more members . . ..I cannot fathom how anyone could have dreamt up this scenario in advance and trained for it . . . .

If Gardaí were to train for every crazy possiblity then they would never finish training and get to go to work.

This was a complete one off incident, there is no training manual to refer to for this one, and members did their level best to deal with the situation, reacting under pressure as events unfolded ( not on their comfy couch at home days later ) . . . .

The guy was detained, there was little further injury, if any etc etc . . . It was a good outcome.

Its easy to sit and watch it now and pick holes in it . . . .and come up with all sorts of hair-brained expert opinion, devoid of practical experience and realism . . on what should have been done.

this is one of the most common sense and intelligent posts i've ever read on the net, should be posted on every message board where keyboard warriors post....lets face it, most of those who "know" how best to handle this situation sit behind a desk 8 hours a day and the most exciting aspect of their day is changing the toner in a photocopier....but they know best

well done corcioch

Zambia · 29-05-2011 1:11pm

Hold on a minute....Thats a discovery it would have broken down all by itself in a few more minutes anyway!!!

North Face · 29-05-2011 5:06pm

@Manic Moran This is not America.

Garda and Airport Police vehicles are not generally police spec but family wagons with livery,radios and lights added. They do not have ram bars or the like fitted. Unfortunatly this is the reality we live & work with here.

If Garda X or Airport Police Officer Y ram the car to disable him and strike his rear wheel trying to disable his vehicle.

The force of the speed alone of Gardai/Airport Police vehicle hitting it would likely deploy the Airbags possible damaging the officer ribs and the impact of the ramming itself could damage their backs (indefinitly)

Having to make a decision like this to ram does not rest on anyone's shoulders easily be it the driver of the Police car or senior officers on the scene. Containment like in PO situations is a method of controlling access and egress and letting an individual simmer.

If the Gardai or Airport Police had rammed him and disabled his jeep and subsequently the officers had injured themselves badly what happens to them then? Back Pain all their life and injury likely to effect there own personal and family life unable to actively take part in sports or family events the list goes on and also effect their career progression due to their injuries. It not as simple as you suggest.

This man was clearly out to injure person and property and Yes it has exposed gaps in training and capabilities from both Police Services but as everyone knows who is involved in situations like this, that unfortunatly it takes an incident like this to occur for new training,procedures and equipment and legislation to come online from post incident reviews. The GRA was only recently looking for new legislation and training in this area.

Lessons should and will be learned from this incident, I'm sure and new security and policing infrastructure should be put in place in time.

Poccington · 29-05-2011 7:19pm

1922 wrote: »

this is one of the most common sense and intelligent posts i've ever read on the net, should be posted on every message board where keyboard warriors post....lets face it, most of those who "know" how best to handle this situation sit behind a desk 8 hours a day and the most exciting aspect of their day is changing the toner in a photocopier....but they know best

well done corcioch

:rolleyes:

Yes, how dare anyone offer an opinion on an incident unless they're a serving member of AGS.

North Face wrote: »

Entire post...

The day that a member of AGS heads down the path of self preservation and putting their career ahead of attempting to deal with a situation, is the day they should stop wearing the uniform.

North Face · 29-05-2011 7:30pm

The moment an officer put his own Officer safety training out the window and in dangers his colleagues more to the point.

This isnt Die Hard or lethal weapon and they are not programmed drones either they have a life outside the job and family to love and care for. (This isnt the topic and so im going stop myself there.)

CaseyRyback · 29-05-2011 7:54pm

Poccington wrote: »

The day that a member of AGS heads down the path of self preservation and putting their career ahead of attempting to deal with a situation, is the day they should stop wearing the uniform.

Every serving member of the emergency services is obliged to look after their own safety first and foremost as a matter of policy. If they do not, not only will they subject to discipline at risk of losing their livelihood and pension (sorry, gold-plated public sector pension :rolleyes:) but potentially may be subject to civil litigation if their actions are deemed reckless and accordingly cause harm.

Real life is very different to the movies.

As for making comparisons with the United States, always nice to have another perspective, however Ireland is not the United States and the law enforcement models employed are entirely different and not interchangeable. All well and good saying the suspect should have been shot on entering the aerodrome, however this would require a fundamental shift in Irish aviation security. Is that shift borne out by this one incident? I don't think so.

Garda Stabbed in Cork City

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