Garda Stabbed in Cork City

caseyann

Chief--- wrote: »

BrianD What would you have done in this situation lets say you were

1. In the unmarked Garda Car armed with a Sig/Revolver/Uzi

2. In the RSU armed car.

Be realistic now and we can analyse your actions.







In Court this morning.

Edmond Stapleton, of no fixed address but originally from Dublin Hill in Cork city, was charged at Togher Garda Station last night.
He also faces charges of threatening to harm Cork Airport employees John McCarthy and Michael Delaney while armed with a knife and taking their Toyota Land Cruiser.
Garda John McSweeney gave evidence of arresting and charging Mr Stapleton.
He told Cork District Court this morning that Mr Stapleton replied 'I understand completely' and 'I understand exactly what you are saying' when the charges were read to him.
Judge David Riordan remanded Mr Stapleton in custody for a week on the application of Garda Inspector Michael Maguire.
Solicitor Frank Buttimer told the court his client was not applying for bail and was consenting to the application.
Mr Stapleton was granted legal aid after Mr Buttimer told the court that he was unemployed, had no income and no property or assets.
Mr Stapleton confirmed this and complained during the hearing that he could not hear what was being said.
Garda McSweeney also told the court that he arrested Mr Stapleton this morning on foot of an arrest warrant.
The warrant was issued after he failed to turn up in court to face charges of possession and possession for sale or supply of cannabis and cocaine.
These offences are alleged to have occurred in Co Kildare in 2009.

Was he high as a kite on something or mentally ill?

mcgarrett

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravestar
Excellent take down by the RSU

Manic Moran wrote: »

After seven minutes of driving around in circles, and because he came to a stop of no apparent fault of the authorities.

NTM

I take it you don't agree with bravestars post.

A semi naked deranged male emerges from a vehicle and runs at you with a knife, you deploy the taser knowing that if you miss with one probe it will be ineffective and you will have left yourself open to a knife attack.

From the Garda debusing to the hit with the taser is 2 seconds.

Fu*king right it was an excellent take down.

Goonerdee

Hope the officer gets well soon.

Manic Moran

mcgarrett wrote: »

A semi naked deranged male emerges from a vehicle and runs at you with a knife, you deploy the taser knowing that if you miss with one probe it will be ineffective and you will have left yourself open to a knife attack.

From the Garda debusing to the hit with the taser is 2 seconds.

Fu*king right it was an excellent take down.

To the extent that you cover, yes, you are correct. I have nothing poor to say about the manner in which the driver was subdued once his vehicle stopped and he was on foot.

My concern is more to the fact that the police/Gardai appeared somewhat ineffective at getting him to the point that he could be subdued in the first place. In this case, it helped that he co-operated by deciding to get out of the jeep.

Frankly, I think that a semi-naked deranged male behind the wheel of a vehicle in open space is more dangerous to most than a semi-naked deranged male running around with a knife.

NTM

I am very fond of AGS in general, but I do have to admit, that they did seem pretty useless here.

Not sure what the story was with the fire truck either. Looked like they were they trying to ram him with it? Surely that'd be a case of murder then? I can't predict many people walking away from a wallop of one of those trucks.

Probably should've had the hose on though. Would perhaps the water be strong enough to smash the glass inwards in the car onto the driver? Would obviously cause a lot of pain/cutting, but would no doubt shock him enough that he'd be dazed/confused enough for AGS and the Police to get the upper hand?

The_Snapper

mcgarrett wrote: »

A semi naked deranged male emerges from a vehicle and runs at you with a knife,

You shoot him with a proper gun.

mcgarrett wrote: »

you deploy the taser knowing that if you miss with one probe it will be ineffective and you will have left yourself open to a knife attack.

You won't have that worry if you use a proper gun.

Hooch

Deleted User wrote: »

I am very fond of AGS in general, but I do have to admit, that they did seem pretty useless here.

Not sure what the story was with the fire truck either. Looked like they were they trying to ram him with it? Surely that'd be a case of murder then? I can't predict many people walking away from a wallop of one of those trucks.

Probably should've had the hose on though. Would perhaps the water be strong enough to smash the glass inwards in the car onto the driver? Would obviously cause a lot of pain/cutting, but would no doubt shock him enough that he'd be dazed/confused enough for AGS and the Police to get the upper hand?

In your first paragraph you state they were useless and in your second you say it would be murder to ram them with the fire tender???

Firstly operational requirements for certain units would have to be observed...which we will not discuss. Secondly....the male assaulted a member of AGS....seriously......and was driving a deadly weapon....nearly hitting several staff and members and ramming several cars......lethal force was justified instantly. Lethal force in this case...whether by the ramming of the fire tender or by an armed Garda....would have been justifiable....not murder. Anyone who says its not is clearly mad.

Fire hose......are you for real?? Seriously???

Hooch

Manic Moran wrote: »

My concern is more to the fact that the police/Gardai appeared somewhat ineffective at getting him to the point that he could be subdued in the first place. In this case, it helped that he co-operated by deciding to get out of the jeep.

What would you like unarmed, uniform members of AGS to do??


Mod note:

Posters beware.....you were not there.....you do not know full facts of the incident.....and its not wise to speculate about an open, sub judice case.

goldie fish

They could have given him a wash with the Airport Fire Tender. It can put down quite a volume of water.....

goldie fish

roundymac wrote: »

Òf coarse it would, armco barrier would stop a 40ton artic, it would make mincemeat of a SUV, I should know I used install the stuff. The Aer Lingus plane was just getting ready to board, it was going to Amsterdam, The Thomas Cook flight was for Lourdes, that had landed at 3.05 so in all probability it was loaded or about to load.

I see you didn't read what I said.... The Airport Police was INSIDE the perimeter....What could would your personally installed armco do?

NGA

NGA wrote: »

In your first paragraph you state they were useless and in your second you say it would be murder to ram them with the fire tender???

Firstly operational requirements for certain units would have to be observed...which we will not discuss. Secondly....the male assaulted a member of AGS....seriously......and was driving a deadly weapon....nearly hitting several staff and members and ramming several cars......lethal force was justified instantly. Lethal force in this case...whether by the ramming of the fire tender or by an armed Garda....would have been justifiable....not murder. Anyone who says its not is clearly mad.

Fire hose......are you for real?? Seriously???

So justifiable makes it OK?*

Here's the thing, I'm forever reading on here about how AGS should be gentle in their approach. Anytime I post here condoning a good hammering for criminal/scumbags, I get shot down left right and centre.

Personally, I'd have been delighted to see the Fire Tender do some monster truck work and make ****e of the car, but had it actually happened I certainly wouldn't have condoned it (and if I were a Garda overlooking what was happening, I certainly wouldn't have ordered it out to smash into the car, either). I'd find such an approach to be absolutely shocking, to be honest.

Water hoses are effective in riots. They make people run for it. I'm sure a tender that is designed to battle aviation fires would have serious water pressure capabilities and would be able to smash windows on the car, or ultimately disable it (perhaps if aimed at the wheels). Seems a much safer route to go to me.

If the RSU were at the scene, whilst I'm aware that it wasn't Will Smith and Bruce Willis driving the car, surely they could have laced numerous bullets into the car to bring it to a standstill (surely a bullet to the bonnet, or general front of the vehicle, would deploy an airbag?).

From looking at the videos, it seems like our very own Niko Bellic got fed up and stopped, then got out of the car. Can't see if he tried to make another run for it or just surrendered himself, but if I'm completely honest, i really don't think this is an effort AGS should be proud of.


*Just incase it isn't obvious, this line is sarcasm

Hooch

Deleted User wrote: »

So justifiable makes it OK?

Here's the thing, I'm forever reading on here about how AGS should be gentle in their approach. Anytime I post here condoning a good hammering for criminal/scumbags, I get shot down left right and centre.

Personally, I'd have been delighted to see the Fire Tender do some monster truck work and make ****e of the car, but had it actually happened I certainly wouldn't have condoned it (and if I were a Garda overlooking what was happening, I certainly wouldn't have ordered it out to smash into the car, either). I'd find such an approach to be absolutely shocking, to be honest.

Water hoses are effective in riots. They make people run for it. I'm sure a tender that is designed to battle aviation fires would have serious water pressure capabilities and would be able to smash windows on the car, or ultimately disable it (perhaps if aimed at the wheels). Seems a much safer route to go to me.

If the RSU were at the scene, whilst I'm aware that it wasn't Will Smith and Bruce Willis driving the car, surely they could have laced numerous bullets into the car to bring it to a standstill (surely a bullet to the bonnet, or general front of the vehicle, would deploy an airbag?).

From looking at the videos, it seems like our very own Niko Bellic got fed up and stopped, then got out of the car. Can't see if he tried to make another run for it or just surrendered himself, but if I'm completely honest, i really don't think this is an effort AGS should be proud of.

Yes thats exactly it....justifiable means its ok....seriously ok.

You have been shot down in the past as you have not been justified. Each response must be measured....here the measure was the fact he WAS going to kill someone and as such Lethal force would be justifiable

Water cannons are effective in riots against people.......the chances of the tender being able to drive, aim, take account of the wind, hit the windscreen....somehow crack the LAMINATED glass are very slim. Also it would have disrupted the other vehicles on the airfield. Aim at the wheel???

RSU arrived just before the vehicle stopped......they CANNOT just shoot blindly at a moving vehicle with such a crowd around. A bullet to the front of a vehicle would NOT deploy the airbags as certain parameters are needed for this. A bullet to the engine block would/could most certainly deflect in another direction. Lacing numerous bullets isnt something any police service do.

The driver stopped as there was severe damage to the vehicle and it forced him to stop.....and he made a run for the plane....clear to be seen on some videos.

arybvtcw0eolkf

pingu2008 wrote: »

Heres another vid

View it while playing this one in the background...

Well done to the members of AGS who stopped & dropped the lunatic.

Manic Moran

I'm sure a tender that is designed to battle aviation fires would have serious water pressure capabilities and would be able to smash windows on the car, or ultimately disable it (perhaps if aimed at the wheels). Seems a much safer route to go to me.

I'll lay bets that they are equipped with foam for dealing with aviation fuel fires, not water for standard hazards. It wouldn't be of more than a distraction, and, frankly, the stuff would probably be best kept for an actual fire.

What would you like unarmed, uniform members of AGS to do??

Assuming that they had no suitable vehicle immobilisation devices (eg stingers might be optomistic unless very well employed), they seemed to have a goodly number of other cars sitting off the end which could be effectively used as weapons. Yes, it was bigger than a patrol car, no I don't accept that it could not have been disabled.
To wit:

The driver stopped as there was severe damage to the vehicle and it forced him to stop.....

This is evidence that a patrol car did have enough mass to properly disable the offending vehicle.

A plan which consists of letting the other guy drive at will until he screws up or decides to stop is unacceptable.

NTM

Hooch

Manic Moran wrote: »

This is evidence that a patrol car did have enough mass to properly disable the offending vehicle.

A plan which consists of letting the other guy drive at will until he screws up or decides to stop is unacceptable.

A patrol car didnt ram him......he rammed a stationary Garda jeep (same model as his) just before he stopped......so......evidence of nothing.

Letting him drive around a large runway until he screws up is perfectly logical to me.......10 cars following him and nobody watching the exits.....wonder what you would have said if all the cars went in....he escaped out again and went on the rampage in the city???

roundymac

goldie fish wrote: »

I see you didn't read what I said.... The Airport Police was INSIDE the perimeter....What could would your personally installed armco do?

Your the one not reading properly. How can he knock down a fence if amrco barrier is outside it. If he drove into the armco at the speed with which he knocked down the fence I can assure you that he would not have been walking let alone running.

Hogzy

NGA wrote: »

Mod note:

Posters beware.....you were not there.....you do not know full facts of the incident.....and its not wise to speculate about an open, sub judice case.

But it was captured on video by quite a few people. Its all over Youtube. From what I have seen on video i dont think "being there" would make any difference to ones abilities to see what really happened.

Granted what happened before the airport incident is unknown.

Hooch

Hogzy wrote: »

But it was captured on video by quite a few people. Its all over Youtube. From what I have seen on video i dont think "being there" would make any difference to ones abilities to see what really happened.

Granted what happened before the airport incident is unknown.

Several people have mentioned possibility of discharge of firearms at the vehicle.......can this be seen from the videos???

Manic Moran

A patrol car didnt ram him......he rammed a stationary Garda jeep (same model as his) just before he stopped......so......evidence of nothing.

Are you saying that if an Oktavia had impacted the Land Cruiser in the same place as the disabling hit occurred that the Land Cruiser would not have been just as disabled? We have evidence from the video that a certain inertia applied to a certain location on the target vehicle would disable the vehicle. This simply backs up what we see in routine road traffic accidents anyway: Cars, even big ones, tend not to like knocks to the front axle and engine compartment.

Letting him drive around a large runway until he screws up is perfectly logical to me.......10 cars following him and nobody watching the exits.....wonder what you would have said if all the cars went in....he escaped out again and went on the rampage in the city???

He seemed to be getting pretty close to pedestrians on the airport as well, not to mention the hazards of the aircraft. If even half the cars made a directed attempt to disable or box the Land Cruiser, it would, I submit, have come to a stop.

And had he decided to escape out the airport again, since the police seemed reluctant to get their cars' paint scratched, how would they have been able to stop said rampage in the city if all they wanted to do was follow him around until he crashed? Relying on your objective to screw up has a major flaw: It is completely out of your hands and you are effectively a passive observer.

NTM

Zambia

I see where you are coming from Manic but those cars are not kitted out to ram vehicles. I would not be happy with two officers ramming a jeep, occupied by a what I believe to be a mad nuphy with a knife. Chances are the airbags would deploy on the skoda/sedan and they are pinned to the seat while nuphy boy hops out weilding a knife.

In relation to bringing more cars in well then thats not feasible as we could see even the few cars on the tarmac already had issues in avoiding hitting the other ES vehicles. More cars = more obstacles for everyone.

In relation to others comments about bullets disabling cars, this is not the case unless you have something well over small arms. I have seen (video) cars drive after multiple shots have been fired into it granted it was a Volvo. In the end after, 38's , 40's Shotgun rounds and about half a Mag from a UMP 45 still did not stop it. Granted a few 100 metres later it might have but thats not the effect intended. Especially if you have bullets bouncing off the tarmac and members in cars to the left and right.

The taser take down was the way to go, chances are the lethal option was there as well. That's what taser is for. If the taser missed or did not work well then things may have ended badly.

Plus if this guy was looking for suicide by cop well he did not get it.

As I said before no further loss of life, bad guy remanded and facing a long stint. Job done.

BrianD

foinse wrote: »

Well what do you suggest? Ramming an almost 3tonne jeep with a 1.4tonne car???? All that would do is destroy the car and injure it's occupants.

Do you have any suggestions that would be viable, or are you just once again Garda bashing as you seem to do on any thread you post in involving AGS.

The members involved in this pursuit, acted within guidelines and procedures, and the pursuit was brought to a successful conclusion. This isn't Bad Boys, or Die Hard, it's real life.

I'm not Garda bashing. I salute the bravery of all staff who dealt with the situation. However, it is clear that that there were unable to deal with this situation. I suspect that this is due to a lack of training which is not that fault of the personnel involved.

However, you can not claim that the incident was brought to a successful conclusion as it is clear from the videos that the situation was out of control for 10 minutes and the vehicle chase ending by either the individual stopping his vehicle or it stopping due to some sort of mechanical issue. That is not a successful conclusion. The eventual detention of the individual is, of course, a successful conclusion.

It is possible to stop the vehicle of this nature with smaller vehicles as demonstrated any night you chose on the various reality TV cop shows. I'm sure the videos shown demonstrate the successful conclusions and there are probably more unsuccessful pursuits and 'stops' that we never see. However. it is blatently obvious that no tactics or procedures were deployed in Cork to stop the vehicle. If there were, I'd be delighted to know what they are.

As you say it is real life and real life was captured video and it clearly shows a defficiency in the ability of the force to deal with this situation.

While on this topic, can anybody advise where the training for Garda and airport police drivers takes place and what types of training takes place? Are drivers still on "ministerial orders"?

Shield

BrianD wrote: »

can anybody advise where the training for Garda and airport police drivers takes place and what types of training takes place?

I believe this information is not in the public domain and would be considered confidential. It is for the PSNI, and I believe it is the same for AGS and Airport Police for operational reasons.

eroo

I can only but applaud the members of AGS, and Cork Airport personnel, who were involved in the chase. Thankfully nobody was seriously injured.

If there is to be any criticism, it should be leveled at AGS management. The reality is some of the Garda drivers would not be trained drivers, or moreso not advanced drivers. Instead, most were probably on Chiefs. This means members may not be sure of what exactly to do in this scenario. Let's not forget that if a Garda vehicle had rammed the jeep and suspect was seriously injured, GSOC would jump on the Garda driver and he/she would be hung out to dry for ramming.

If anyone remembers the incident a year ago where the ERU rammed a car off the road that well known criminals were carrying a gun in, they did so in a jeep. The gougers were driving an old Avenisis. Also, the driver would have been trained to an advance level. So there are many factors to incidents such as that at Cork Airport.

However, this is an ongoing investigation so we can only speculate on the details as always.

Well done to the members who arrested him, and a speedy recovery to the 2 injured Gardai.

Zambia

BrianD wrote: »

I'm not Garda bashing. I salute the bravery of all staff who dealt with the situation. However, it is clear that that there were unable to deal with this situation. I suspect that this is due to a lack of training which is not that fault of the personnel involved.

No what is clear with respect is you cant recognise what dealing with a situation is.

Chief asked you how you would have dealt with it a few posts back. You should really answer him if you expect to be taken seriously.

Shield

I agree - BrianD, viewing the critical comments you are making, it would suggest you seem to have knowledge of policing incidents. Could you share what operational tactics you would have employed given the very tight timeframe this all happened in?

NGA

NGA wrote: »

You have been shot down in the past as you have not been justified. Each response must be measured....here the measure was the fact he WAS going to kill someone and as such Lethal force would be justifiable

But he hadn't killed anyone. You don't know what his intentions were. I agree, there's a high possibility of serious injury, but that said, he swirled around a couple of Gardaì (I think they were Gardaì anyway) who were standing against a vehicle. Had he wanted to, I'm sure he could have ploughed into them and the car, and crush them. I don't believe he had any idea what his next move was going to be.

Though that said, he shouldn't have been able to have a next move anyway. He should have been stopped by that time.

NGA wrote: »

Water cannons are effective in riots against people.......the chances of the tender being able to drive, aim, take account of the wind, hit the windscreen....somehow crack the LAMINATED glass are very slim. Also it would have disrupted the other vehicles on the airfield. Aim at the wheel???

I'd have assumed that the hose and the driving of the lorry would be controlled by two separate people, in which case I would assume it's personnell would be capable of aiming and driving at the same time.

Side windows even smashed inwards. The windscreen cracking would disrupt the driver's view. Though as I said, a more useful approach would be to try and push/topple the car, in my opinion. If the other drivers were informed of the Fire truck intention, then I'm sure they could have hung back momentarily whilst the truck tries it's luck.

RSU arrived just before the vehicle stopped......they CANNOT just shoot blindly at a moving vehicle with such a crowd around. A bullet to the front of a vehicle would NOT deploy the airbags as certain parameters are needed for this. A bullet to the engine block would/could most certainly deflect in another direction. Lacing numerous bullets isnt something any police service do.

Did RSU not shoot at a car not too long ago? The car had been stolen and there was a child in the back seat? As far as I'm recall, the action of shooting at the car in a public place was higly praised on here at the time. I imagine it would be safer to do this on an open airfield if the other cars, again, pulled back, and let the RSU do their thing.

The driver stopped as there was severe damage to the vehicle and it forced him to stop.....and he made a run for the plane....clear to be seen on some videos.

Severe damage that he caused himself? When he drove into one of the other vehicles (I seen that, but I didn't see anyone shoot at or ram him, though I didn't see him for the plane either, so I obviously haven't seen all the footage available).


Admittedly, my ideas to hose the car and such may not seem like the most inventful or impactful ideas, but AGS didn't seem to have much better up their sleeve. A small game of Destruction Derby with four or five of the Garda/Police cars taking turns having small rams at him would, or trying to enclose him in a circle, would have been a good idea in my opinion (though as said above, it'd be the Gardaì that would be under scrutiny then).

The whole thing screams "unprepared" for both AGS and the Police.

Zambia

Deleted User wrote: »

Admittedly, my ideas to hose the car and such may not seem like the most inventful or impactful ideas, but AGS didn't seem to have much better up their sleeve.

Cordon And containing as sad as it looks is a plan.

Deleted User wrote: »

A small game of Destruction Derby with four or five of the Garda/Police cars taking turns having small rams at him would, or trying to enclose him in a circle, would have been a good idea in my opinion (though as said above, it'd be the Gardaì that would be under scrutiny then).

Probably not much scrutiny but these officers have familys and loved ones. I see no need for them to collide with 4WD's unless no other option is left.

kub

I think it is very unfair to be questioning the way this person was pursued as seen on the various videos.

As we can all see from Tv, there are some brilliant chases and vehicles being stopped during pursuits etc.

Now back to real life, they were not driving on a road, the 4 x 4 driver could have gone in any direction at any time. So might I suggest, anyone with any ideas or suggestions as to how this pursuit could have been stopped sooner just tell us how.

I would imagine that the driver of the fire tender/ truck was an airport fire fighter, these guys do not receive training in vehicle pursuits. There training relates to fire fighting and he probably felt his vehicle was bigger than the 4x4 so logically a bump from him would have done some damage.
Also of course, the fire tender was a very usefull vehicle to have there and then, if that 4 x 4 had actually crashed into the aeroplane.

Manic Moran

Cordon And containing as sad as it looks is a plan

More a 'damage limitation' plan than a 'bring to conclusion' plan, though.

I see no need for them to collide with 4WD's unless no other option is left.

So at what point does it become necessary for them to do so? After he runs over the two guys he narrowly missed on the apron? After he decides to take a run at the airplane? After he actually does collide with the aircraft? We can all look at it now and say that it all worked out for the best and it was a good plan. But it would not have taken very much for the 'good plan' to have turned into more of a tragedy, and that change would have been carried out far faster than anyone's reaction time could allow for.
I think police are usually given a little slack in preventative measures and given the man was obviously irrational enough to slash a Garda whilst wearing underpants, relying on his good nature and skill to keep missing people and aircraft is risky.

I see where you are coming from Manic but those cars are not kitted out to ram vehicles.

This is true, and unfortunate. Means the repair costs are going to be higher. However, it also means that the impact would probably be softened as, instead of ram bars, it's a crumple zone. Either way, it seems to have been the best hand the police were dealt, unless you count live ammunition.

NTM

maglite

Would I be correct in assuming AGS can't utilize TPAC or have a limited ability to do so?

He was fairly well contained on the Tarmac, I saw nothing majorly wrong with the approach taken, If he were shot at the start of the incident people would be screaming about brutality and excessive force on a "mental ill down on his luck man",

I would have issues with the Operational Airport Staff being on the Ground they should have pulled back, the Mention of an Aircraft landing while he was on the Airfield is another serious flaw. But there is limited danger on a contained environ such as that.


Edit: TPAC=Playing bumper cars Or instigating physical contact. Zambia links Wiki below