Bord Gais Heat - Overcharged?!

DonegalBonz

johnnymorgan wrote: »

I have cancelled my DD with them and wont pay anything until I am satisfied with what they tell me.. I am still waiting for them to come back on some things.. I wont be chasing them up anymore.. If they want their money they can come to me.

I adopted this approach over a year ago, told them in a registered letter that I wouldnt be paying a cent more until they provided accurate bills and a detailed description of the cause of and solution to this metering problem, I never got as much as an acknowledgement. I also sent a registered letter to a senior manager in Bord Gais and again got no response. If they cant be arsed replying to emails or letters then I wont be arsed to promptly pay anything once this has been addressed.

johnnymorgan

@DonegalBonz.

They have never come back to you for the owed money? Are you not worried about a rising bill? I dont expect to have them come back to me with the answers I want so I wont push them. I will leave it up to them. If they want their money they can approach me.

whiteandlight

I just happened upon this thread from the front page and wanted to advise you guys to get the media involved if you can at all. The thread reads likes horror story, particularly when you consider it is three years running !

DonegalBonz

johnnymorgan wrote: »

@DonegalBonz.

They have never come back to you for the owed money? Are you not worried about a rising bill? I dont expect to have them come back to me with the answers I want so I wont push them. I will leave it up to them. If they want their money they can approach me.

Im not concerned about the balance on the bill as this is complete nonsense and bares no resemblence to actual usage, however Im never happy about any bill hanging over me but once this is resolved I will drag repayments out over a similar time to the time taken by BG to address the probelm.

johnnymorgan

Yeah don't like a bill hanging over me either. But as you said, its not a real figure just made up usage on their part. I am still waiting for them to send out an engineer to do a proper reading and give me some other information. I won't hold my breath. I will move on at some point and they can chase me for the money if they want.

DonegalBonz

Just fired off an email to my local TD for Dublin Central as the latest bill from BG Heat has now come with an attached threat of disconnection if the balance isn't settled. I would encourage everybody affected to do the same as the more emails received the more likely there'd be some action. The 4 for Dublin Central are below so take your pick

joe.costello@oireachtas.ie
paschal.donohoe@oireachtas.ie
marylou.mcdonald@oireachtas.ie
maureen.osullivan@oireachtas.ie

The_Conductor

Errr- what the hell is your local TD supposed to do?
Bord Gais are an independent semi-state company- with a commercial mandate.
Firing off a missive to your TD is akin to giving them a yell because there is a pothole in the road outside your house. Parochial politics at its finest

DonegalBonz

Well when you've tried escalating to a senior manager, contacting the Commission for Energy Regulator, followed all advice from the National Consumer Agency and have got sweet f*ck all response from Bord Gais its worth a try.

What would you have me do?

The_Conductor

DonegalBonz wrote: »

What would you have me do?

I've always found companies to be remarkably cooperative, when you lob a small claims court summons at them- the cost of defending it is normally far greater than you would ever claim- so they normally become remarkably cooperative. You have to properly enumerate your loss however, if you go down this route.

DonegalBonz

I havnt paid them anything since the readings went mental so I'm wondering how I can calculate a loss to claim.

The_Conductor

Make a list of all the phone calls, correspondence you've had with them, assign a reasonable cost to each itemised piece of correspondence, the time associated with the endeavours- and you can lodge a small claims case online. Of course a claim would fail- however, if they don't defend it, which costs them money- you end up with a summary judgement.

They still have their case against you for the arrears- which in the interests of mediation- it would make sense to sit down and come to a mutually agreeable arrangement over.

You do owe them money- even if they have been singularly unsuccessful in enumerating what this is- don't forget that- but by bringing out a weapon, even a faulty weapon, that will cost them time and annoyance- someone might see sense and get shot of the case.

DonegalBonz

Cheers for the advice, I'll look into this. I've always said in all correspondence I'm happy to pay any bill based on actual reads.

johnnymorgan

Hi,

reading this with interest..

@DonegalBonz - roughly how much do you "owe" them. Albeit this is not a real figure on actual usage, just curious as to how much it is..
I have not heard back from them on some answers I wanted. Am still awaiting an engineer to come out and read my meter for an actual reading.. So when they are good and ready I guess. I could have well moved by then lol.

The small claims approach does sound like something useful alright..

Also one thing with a TD would be to get a spot light on this. The problem is that noone really knows this "company" and how they operate and the extoroniate fees they are charging people..

My landlady was even contacting them to see if she could find out information about it, never heard back from her, so I assume she hit a dead end.

boozezela

The_Conductor wrote: »

You do owe them money- even if they have been singularly unsuccessful in enumerating what this is- don't forget that- but by bringing out a weapon, even a faulty weapon, that will cost them time and annoyance- someone might see sense and get shot of the case.

Excuse me, they failed to install the new meters with due diligence, they failed to keep the old and new meters up and running properly, they are invoicing amounts that are tenfold what they used to be because they have ignored the existing pipes layout in the apartments and he owns them money?!?

Based on what, invoices? Please allow me to invoice you for some random amount of money then!

Do you realize that a usage of 1500-2000kw/month x 12 months means that we would be living in a new ice age with outside temperatures around -25C?

Guys, the management company don't give a sh*t and so BGHeat and so the solicitor I tried to involve in the matter. It would be nice if we could meet and come up with a concerted approach to this matter (class action?) because after almost 3 f*cking years I am still seeing the arrears piling up.

And I am exactly in a situation where the balance reflects a reality where "it is always winter".

The_Conductor

Unfortunately we don't have 'class action' suits in Irish law (which given the experiences in the US- probably isn't a bad thing).

Owners of units need to get together and force the Management Company to take action- one person here or there narking at the Management Company isn't going to do anything. Remember- the Management Company is owned by the landlords- and all the properties are vested in it. It is the duty of the Management Company to represent the interests of owners. If this issue is pushed hard enough by owner occupiers and tenants, that it is viewed as an issue- then something will be done.

You don't have to wait for an AGM either- normally (articles of association will dictate) an EGM can be called to address urgent issues that arise.

Note- this is for the owners/landlords to chase- not tenants.

boozezela

The_Conductor wrote: »

Note- this is for the owners/landlords to chase- not tenants.

This means that all the tenants are doomed: hot water is in their names, not their landlords'.

P.S. The bean counters woke up: I have just received the invoice covering the period from Nov13 to Jan14 and BG Heat are threatening disconnection.

ProjectColossus

I also received a bill in the post today for the 13-Nov-13 to 14-Jan-14 period, which also included a lovely threat of disconnection, because I have an "outstanding balance". Except that the outstanding balance is the amount from bill they sent last time, which is in my banking records as paid by direct debit, along with every other bill they've ever been sent.

Cowboys, or idiots. Actually, apparently both.

Freakyzoidberg

I too received the bill today covering 13-Nov-13 to 14-Jan-14, with the threat of disconnection, fairly certain the direct debit went through in december.

Sent a mail to skeenan @ bordgais.ie which is OOO until 10/02/14.

as for the underlying problem, the reading never made sense and are always around 1000kwh may I be here or on a trip.

messy tessy

hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has had any resolution to the overcharging from Bord Gais Heat?? I am living in Spencer House, and cancelled my DD in 2010. I have been ringing every time a bill comes and its the same thing the whole time "we are waiting to hear from management/they are having a meeting next week" etc

I was in touch with Serena on Friday and she said I had to pay the standard charge - €830 ("undisputed charge") and half the remaining balance (approx 1k). I have paid the charge as I am getting really worried about this high bill but I don't want to pay half a bill that inaccurately reflects what we use.

If anyone has any advice I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!

johnnymorgan

Hi,

I don't think anyone has resolved this? Perhaps we should meed up as a group and try and contact them as a group?

Serena doesnt work there, they are still using her contact but its a different woman now.. So half the remaining balance.. On what grounds do you have to pay that.. Can they prove that you used that electricity as I have never had the meter in my place read.. My last conversations an engineer was meant to come out to me and read it.. I have not followed up as I have asked for that and some other information(that twice she said was being sent) which never arrived, so my approach is to let them chase me when they are good and ready..

Rgds,

messy tessy

Thanks for responding. She actually is working there again - back from maternity leave. But that's neither here nor there!

They sent out an engineer to check the system in our apt about two years ago and he confirmed it was a bypass problem - apparently the same as many other apartments. The standard charge for us was 55 euro, Serena said this was undisputed. She said to send an email to her explaining the situation, she would forward this onto management and they would write off 50% of "my debt"... I told her we use about one hour of hot water a day and rarely had the heating on. so I doubt 50% of what we are charged would even be accurate.

I think we should try to organise something as a group, I don't think they are going to come back with answers unless we push them on it. I was thinking of putting notices up in our building and seeing if there is enough interest to form something!! sounding very militant there but this is just so frustrating!

johnnymorgan

Hi,

yeah might work as a group.. Albeit having red this whole thread through in the past it seems to be ongoing for years.. Sure they only started sending legitimate invoices recently (they all had invalid vat numbers on them until I pointed it out to them) Yeah thats the same standing charge as me. I only cancelled about 6 months ago so only owe about 3 payments of it, but my overall bill is very hefty, over 2000 now, and no sense to that.

boozezela

If you want to meet to talk about the issue in person, count me in.

About paying, I don't think it is wise to do so.

- With the bypass in place you will still generate figures that are tenfold what they should be.

- With the bypass removed you may discover that the meter is inaccurate as hell, as it takes just a couple of minutes for the usage counter to go up when you switch CH HW on and UP TO 20 MINUTES to go back to zero.

In any case paying is not going to get the problem fixed, as it is the result of a design flaw, also once you pay BH Heat will just resume invoicing as if nothing happened and you would be back to square one.

What the feckers should do is simple and that specific meter model allows it: charge on a time basis, agreeing a fixed usage figure. E.g. 1 hour=3Kw.

By charging on a time basis, bypass, or no bypass, distance from the actual point of usage, incompetence in setting up the meters and general stupidity of all the parties involved would not matter at all.

But this is ireland, so it is not going to happen.

I have tried to involve a journalist from RTE, do you think she gave a s.hit?

DonegalBonz

Although the approach was rubbished earlier in this thread I have found that involving local politicians has resulted in some success (all are aware of this issue and many have been on site to view this metering clusterf*ck first hand)

Now when I say success I mean at least being informed of what the hell is happening as opposed to being told by BG Heat that "they are investigating and can send a letter detailing this", 4 times now ive been told I'd recieve a letter that never came (funnily enough their huge bills are well able to reach my address).

Following on from correspondence with local politicians I was put in contact with one of the Custom House Square directors, turns out a detailed, fully-costed proposal was put forward by the management company to the members at an EGM that propsed that the management create a new utility company to take over the running and billing of the apartment complex heating system but only on the proviso that the current faulty system was corrected. BG Heat proposed that this new company also take over the existing customer debts but this was rejected by CHS management.

This looked like a good solution to myself and my landlord was advised of this EGM so he could vote (not sure if he did). At the EGM I believe this proposal was rejected, I wasnt there so cant comment (perhaps others on here were in attendance) so it looks like its back to the drawing board.

boozezela

I have heard about negotiations around 2012, but be assured that nothing is going to happen because the whole communal heating system is so badly designed and in a state of disrepair that any company taking over this mess would have to invest millions of euro to rectify the situation.

This means that they would not be profitable anytime soon and that the best option for the parties involved is to keep ignoring the whole clusterf*ck altogether.

Again I was happy when they were using the meter inside the hot press, assuming that I was living in one of the 25% households with a working one.

boozezela

I wrote an email to the Independent asking if they are interested in covering the story.

I have used a catchy subject: "Bord Gais Heat overcharging 100+ households since 2011 (possible fraud case)", but so far not even an acknowledgement.

Maybe it could be beneficial if they receive other emails and phone calls from some of you as well.

Contact details are as follow:

"For the online newsroom, call 01 705 5801 or email contact (at) independent.ie "

messy tessy

I'm not knocking your idea about an article in the indo but how do you think that will help us with this situation?
I'm sending a complaint to the Commission for Energy Regulation. I'll keep ye posted.

boozezela

In my opinion, public awareness and acknowledgement that there are 100+ houlseholds in the same situation would prevent these buffoons from:

a) Mass disconnecting everybody
b) Using a debt collection agency to forcefully get your money (plus interest and fines and who knows whatever else), waste more of your time and possibly screw your credit rating in the process

As of today nobody knows about this but the parties involved and in the end, we are 5 "idiots" trying to solve a situation that is unsolvable.

The regulator would probably propose you to pay 50% of the disputed charges you supposedly owe BG Heat, which is exactly what BG Heat is already willing to accept without flinching.

I believe putting some pressure on them in the end would be good thing.

johnnymorgan

I think the management company are making changes, as I had some guys in trying to make changes to my heating. They had to go to basement as I am not in a standard apartment as others.. So maybe they are thinking of taking over the running of this, as DonegalBonz mentioned above.. I wouldn't mind talking to that director if someone can give me the contact information for him/her.

johnnymorgan

just rang the building manager and they are in negotations with BG to take over the system. They are replacing all bypasses in the apartments, and if its succesful they will take over the system. A new energy provider will be contacted, we will be notified in due course. He stated that bills will be accurate and cheaper.

Doesn't help us with our current issues mind. We would have to take an actual case against BG together to do something there.