Bord Gais Heat - Overcharged?!

sandrewge

I am a customer of BG Heat and this month I received a very high bill for the months of February and March. This is almost double of what we were expecting. They haven't increased the price but it's the heat usage that has increased.

It is very strange because it is even higher than our previous bill, from December to January (900 kWh used), when it was very cold and we would set the boiler for 3-4 hours a day and since February we only set it to 1 hour a day (and occasionally 2) and the bill says we've used 1400kwh which sounds crazy. I was expecting something like the bill before Christmas when we used about a total of 450Kwh (in 2 months).

This is the first bill since a letter we received in March saying they would change the meter and I thought that maybe the new meter was not working well or that it was an estimation. So I called the company, and after a few days trying without nobody answering I got to talk to the woman. She told me that they changed the meter because the old one wasn't working well, it was not capturing all the energy that was really used and that it wasn't efficient (efficient for them!) and that a bit of increase was to be expected.

But this is not just a bit, it's almost double!! Then she said that since it's colder in winter that the boiler needs a lot more energy to heat the water and that's why we used so much energy. I don't remember being it so cold in February... Isn't this a bit strange...? I thought the boiler would always use the same energy and that if it's colder we just would have to leave it longer to heat the water. I'm wondering if they are increasing the power of the boiler so that we spend more...

Basically, I'm not sure what is going on here.

Does anyone have Bord Gais Heat and experienced a similar problem???

Thanks!

jullins

for every drop in temp the boiler has to work harder to heat the system, i.e. if you have the boiler on for an hour when its 10degrees it will prob take 2hrs if it is zero degrees to heat the system to the same temp. and it was fairly cold up to the first week of march! its not possible for them to increase the boiler to make it use more gas! just be happy your not on oil, gas is the most efficient and cheapest fuel out there at the moment apart from renewables

Catalpa1

Can I ask who or what is Bord Gais Heat I cant find anything on them in Google except a few references on Boards etc askng the same question.
I happened to be on to Custmer Service in Bord Gais today and having read the thread asked them, just in case they were able to offer a discount and according to the nice lady Bord Gais have never heard of them????

boozezela

sandrewge wrote: »

Does anyone have Bord Gais Heat and experienced a similar problem???

I am in the same situation.

These idiots changed the meter, without considering the layout of the pipes of the apartment, where the old meter was installed.

Since the meter estimates the usage outside of the apartment, it was calculating usage based on the amount of water circulating 24/7 from the new meter to the apartment and back, without any heat being actually used.

To check if you have the same problem:

1 switch off hot water and heating
2 access the meter
3 assuming you have a "Multical 401", push the little triangle button 8 times
4 if the amount of water shown is not zero you are being charged for water circulation, not actual usage

For step 3, see page 20, "current flow rate"

http://kamstrup.com/media/922/5512-109-GB.pdf

Clearly they have installed the new meters without ****ing performing any kind of test.

P.S. The claim that they changed the meters because they were not working well is a bull****: over the phone I was told that they installed the new meter because the one in the apartment was more then 10 years old. The building was built in 2006.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I'm totally confused by your post. How can the layout of the pipes have anything to do with the measure of gas consumption. Also, what has water circulating got to do with the flow of gas to the premises? Or is this Bord Gais Heat nothing to do with gas at all and we're all barking up the wrong tree?

boozezela

Patricia Shapely Marksman wrote: »

I'm totally confused by your post. How can the layout of the pipes have anything to do with the measure of gas consumption. Also, what has water circulating got to do with the flow of gas to the premises? Or is this Bord Gais Heat nothing to do with gas at all and we're all barking up the wrong tree?

There is no flow of Gas. BG Heat resell hot water mixed with mineral oil, heated by gas burners.

Once such water circulates into your radiators you have heating. When it circulates in the copper coils in your water tank , you have hot water by induction. Once the water has circulated, it goes back to the burners thanks to a return pipe.

Unfortunately the layout of the pipes in my apartment is odd: imagine a Y shaped pipe.

Now connect the upper left "piece" with the water going into the apartment, the upper right piece with the return pipe and the lower piece with the motorised valves.

With the valves open the water would enter the upper left piece of the Y, then enter your system from the lower "piece" of the Y and return back through another pipe connected to the return. Some of the water would still go back in the upper right part of the Y.

With the valves closed there is still circulation on the upper parts of the Y. This is not a problem because if the old meter is in the apartment it would measure usage immediately after the valves.

As I have said, with the above layout when you are not using heating/hot water, the water would enter your apartment, find the valves closed and return back to the boilers. Since the new meter measures usage outside of the apartment before your valves, you will be charged for the water circulating from and to the meter but never actually used.

That's why I was suggesting to check if the meter was showing water circulation or not.

A correct layout would be:

flow (the water going in)>valves>return pipe. With this layout if the valves are closed the meter would show a usage of 0.

Hope this clarifies the matter.

DonegalBonz

boozezela wrote: »

There is no flow of Gas. BG Heat resell hot water mixed with mineral oil, heated by gas burners.

Once such water circulates into your radiators you have heating. When it circulates in the copper coils in your water tank , you have hot water by induction. Once the water has circulated, it goes back to the burners thanks to a return pipe.

Unfortunately the layout of the pipes in my apartment is odd: imagine a Y shaped pipe.

Now connect the upper left "piece" with the water going into the apartment, the upper right piece with the return pipe and the lower piece with the motorised valves.

With the valves open the water would enter the upper left piece of the Y, then enter your system from the lower "piece" of the Y and return back through another pipe connected to the return. Some of the water would still go back in the upper right part of the Y.

With the valves closed there is still circulation on the upper parts of the Y. This is not a problem because if the old meter is in the apartment it would measure usage immediately after the valves.

As I have said, with the above layout when you are not using heating/hot water, the water would enter your apartment, find the valves closed and return back to the boilers. Since the new meter measures usage outside of the apartment before your valves, you will be charged for the water circulating from and to the meter but never actually used.

That's why I was suggesting to check if the meter was showing water circulation or not.

A correct layout would be:

flow (the water going in)>valves>return pipe. With this layout if the valves are closed the meter would show a usage of 0.

Hope this clarifies the matter.

Hi boozezela, I'm having a problem identical to what you're describing above with BG Heat, it looks like the meter in the hall is measuring a constant supply of hot water despite the plumber confirming everything is turned off and no water is entering the apartment.

Did you ever get a resolution with BG Heat? Its bother enough trying to just get through to them.

boozezela

DonegalBonz wrote: »

Hi boozezela, I'm having a problem identical to what you're describing above with BG Heat, it looks like the meter in the hall is measuring a constant supply of hot water despite the plumber confirming everything is turned off and no water is entering the apartment.

Did you ever get a resolution with BG Heat? Its bother enough trying to just get through to them.

The first thing I did was to ring them. They tried to bull**** me over the phone, so my next move was to call the bank and stop payments immediately.

Then I had a plumber involved, which identified the fault, fixed it and wrote a report about the fact that with the existing pipe layout I was being overcharged.

I am still waiting for BG Heat to amend the invoices, since even if the plumber had to intervene in a number of other apartments (they all have the same pipe layout here), according their representative BG Heat "are still investigating the matter".

Of course I am also waiting for them to try to forcefully collect the overcharged invoices, then I will gladly sue their arses off.

DonegalBonz

I dont have a direct debit set-up so thankfully they'll not be getting another cent until this is sorted. The landlord also works in construction so he knows his way around the plumbing layout and he found that the problem was exactly as you described above, thats hardly a coincidence, so this is most likely a problem with all apartments in my block.

I've given up trying to ring BG Heat anymore after about 15 unanswered calls and no replies to my emails, they initially tried to tell me the problem was with the off-valves and needed replacing by a plumber due to general wear 'n' tear, the landlord and management company have taken it up now so I'm sitting tight until they hear back.

ratlinhouse

I am a landlord in Ratlin house My tenant complained that the heting bill was very large.He said a plumber advised him that the central control valve was faulty.
He was correct it was faulty.It was corroded and stuck in the off position.Therefore my client was correct he was not using central heating as it was impossible to do so.
The same plumber then said the Domestic hot water was on continuously .I removed the valve (new and fitted a few days before)and confirmed it was closed .
After investigating the plumbing I discovered there was a bypass(AVDO) fitted.This is connected between the hot water pipe and the cold water pipe and will open automatically allowing water to pass through it.The water passing through it is metered and this is why you have large bills even though you are not using any heat.
The old meter was fitted fitted forward of the bypass valve and did not register the flow through it.
in the old system the overall system meter(back at the boiler)was measuring the actual heating used by tenants plus the water going through the bypass system this probably led them to believe the old apartment meters were faulty.
I have made several checks and can confirm that the meter is clocking up heat even though the apartment is switched off
I had a very good tenant due to high heating bills.
If anyone in Ratlin house would like me to check their system I will oblige

orlaanne

Just wondering if anyone got a resolution to this problem? I have nearly the exact problem ratlinhouse describes and I'm being messed about with bills.

ratlinhouse

no there is still no resolution to problem
They know they are overcharging but still trying to get paid for heat thay do not supply.
i think this is called extortion

Catalpa1

Completely unconnected but are BGE now driven entirely by sales figures no matter how "ficticious"


Bord Gais suspends manager after audit










By Anne-Marie Walsh Industry Correspondent

Thursday January 05 2012

A SENIOR manager at Bord Gais Energy has been suspended after an internal audit found sales figures had been "inflated", the Irish Independent has learned.
It is understood that the employee was suspended just before Christmas after the investigation at the commercial semi-state company uncovered irregularities.
Highly placed sources said that a further investigation into retail sales figures for the past four years at the company has been ordered following the internal audit.
The decision to suspend the senior manager was made after an internal audit revealed serious irregularities in relation to data and information that had been presented to the board.
Bord Gais Energy has blocked the worker from accessing company data and has recovered company property including a laptop and phone.
A number of other staff at the semi-state company have also been interviewed.
The data examined in the audit included Home Team boiler servicing figures, electricity and gas customer losses and 'Big Switch' sales figures and targets.

Lots more on the link

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bord-gais-suspends-manager-after-audit-2980332.html

ratlinhouse

maybe this issue wont be sorted unless it is brought to the attention to the fraud sqad
or the issue is brought to the attention of the papers im sure an investigative journalist would love to get his teeth into it
Or Joe Duffy ?

boozezela

The whole matter is still ****ed up. Also, surprise, removing the bypass will not solve overcharging completely.

When you switch CH on, you will flush all the cold water from the radiator's circuit out of your apartment through the "return" pipe.

The return pipe will cool down sensibly (from 35-40C to 20-25C) and the new meter will pick up the change.
The meter will then calculate the delta (the difference) between the flow and the return temperatures and estimate usage.

What happens is that with the flow temperature being around 70C and the return pipe cooled down to 20C, the delta will be 50C. Now depending on the amount of water the meter is sensing, the estimated usage in KW/h can be anything between 6 and 20.

Usage will gradually drop to more reasonable figures as soon as the return pipe will warm up (it can take up to 15 minutes to happen).
In the meantime the meter will estimate a consumption which is 3 to 20 fold what it should be.

Something similar will happen when you switch CH or HW off, since the meter will not react immediately to the fact that there is no more water going through, but it will keep piling up KW for 10-15 minutes before stopping.

Of course if you also use HW the estimates will be higher, but at least the return pipe should warm up faster though.

An easy solution would be to bill customers by the hour, since according to the manufacturer it is possible to setup the meter to do so, deciding beforehand how much an hour of hot water is worth in KW.

Of course I do not expect such a simple solution to be even considered by BGH.

BTW I have been told off the records that 75% of the old meters was not working properly, so question is: on what basis they were invoicing people all these years? Where they just making figures up?

orlaanne

ratlinhouse wrote: »

maybe this issue wont be sorted unless it is brought to the attention to the fraud sqad
or the issue is brought to the attention of the papers im sure an investigative journalist would love to get his teeth into it
Or Joe Duffy ?

I've been keeping all my communication to email since it started to go sour so I have records of it all. But who do we take a complaint to? I don't think the Ombudsman cover them but would the National Consumer Agency.

Btw Ratlin I live in CHS as well and I got BGH to call out to me and see that my meter was recording hot water when nothing was turned on. I think it's a development wide problem. I'm apparently on some sort of a list for when a solution comes available... They discounted my bill from August to October but told me they can't for October to December because "usage and temperatures will cause a fluctuation in kWh’s being generated". I told them I'm not paying for what I don't use, if I didn't dispute them on the bill they would have tried to charge me for the lot!

I live on the 3rd floor, it's very well insulated so I use max 14 hours hot water a week and maybe 3 hours heat if it's cold and yet I'm being charged for usage similar to my last place when we had the heat on 5/6 hours a day.

orlaanne

boozezela wrote: »

BTW I have been told off the records that 75% of the old meters was not working properly, so question is: on what basis they were invoicing people all these years? Where they just making figures up?

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I lived in another BG heat supplied apt before I moved to this one, with ESB at least I could almost guess what I would be billed each month but with this lot it's like they pluck the figures out of thin air.

boozezela

Just wondering: how many people had their bills discontinued?
I am asking because BGH never stopped invoicing me, even if I am "on the list".

orlaanne

I haven't had mine discontinued as such. They sent me the bill last week and said it would come out on Jan 13th. When I emailed to dispute it they said they could put a hold on the bill until a solution presented itself but they wanted 50% of it now.

We still haven't reached an agreement and I haven't had a response to my last email. I'm considering canceling the direct debit before the bill is due to come out if I don't hear back.

boozezela

orlaanne wrote: »

I'm considering canceling the direct debit before the bill is due to come out if I don't hear back.

If you don't cancel the DD and end up paying extra, it will probably take months to get your money back.
Chances are that BGH will want to carry what you paid extra as a credit in the invoices to come, so I would cancel it ASAP if I were you.

Also I do not see them trying to enforce the payment, since the way they estimate usage is flawed in the first place.

orlaanne

More from them today. They've put a hold on my bill and they said they'll have the results of the investigation "soon".

Lots of avoiding my yes or no questions, some real politicians in the making over there!

DonegalBonz

orlaanne, I would definitly cancel your direct debit asap, I expect it would be a nightmare to try and get any money owed to you back due to overcharging. How can they expect to receive 50% of a bill that is in dispute??

I havnt paid them a cent since a good few months before christmas and will not be payiong anything until BG Heat can provide an accurate reading. I'm still receiving bi-monthly bills with the balance carried forward and another 1200+ kWh tagged on each time.

boozezela

I was thinking to sue them for good.
Anyone has a solicitor already familiar with the matter here?

dub45

DonegalBonz wrote: »

orlaanne, I would definitly cancel your direct debit asap, I expect it would be a nightmare to try and get any money owed to you back due to overcharging. How can they expect to receive 50% of a bill that is in dispute??

I havnt paid them a cent since a good few months before christmas and will not be payiong anything until BG Heat can provide an accurate reading. I'm still receiving bi-monthly bills with the balance carried forward and another 1200+ kWh tagged on each time.

The existence of a dd on an account is not a carte blanche for a company to debit you as they may wish.

The basic rights of a dd payer are here with plenty of other information to be found no the site.

http://www.ipso.ie/section/section/YourRightsasaPayer

DonegalBonz

dub45 wrote: »

The existence of a dd on an account is not a carte blanche for a company to debit you as they may wish.

The basic rights of a dd payer are here with plenty of other information to be found no the site.

http://www.ipso.ie/section/section/YourRightsasaPayer

I didnt know about bullet point 3, I had a run in with a mobile broadband provider a year back who debited a huge bill due to roaming charges despite me never leaving Donegal, admittedly I was on the border but still in the South, the company in question claimed they could only refund half which still came nowhere near the expected bill.

DonegalBonz

Just a quick check to see if anybody on here has had any success in getting a resolutionn of any sort from BG Heat yet?

Legislator

If you are paying your bills by direct debit you must be advised in advance of the date and the amount that is due. If you are unhappy with the amount you can instruct your bank to 'refuse' the direct debit. Your bank will return the DD to BG. This does not cancel the DD mandate but allows you time to negotiate with BG.

DonegalBonz

Another week of no response from BG Heat. Has anybody been in contact with them and can provide an update on this proposed "solution" they've been working on?

orlaanne

DonegalBonz wrote: »

orlaanne, I would definitly cancel your direct debit asap, I expect it would be a nightmare to try and get any money owed to you back due to overcharging. How can they expect to receive 50% of a bill that is in dispute??

I havnt paid them a cent since a good few months before christmas and will not be payiong anything until BG Heat can provide an accurate reading. I'm still receiving bi-monthly bills with the balance carried forward and another 1200+ kWh tagged on each time.

So as it turns out, after assuring me they wouldn't take anything from my account, they took the direct debit! After a very angry phone call the bill was refunded to my account and I had a very apologetic Bord Gais rep on the phone assuring me it wouldn't happen until "a resolution" was met.

It's a month later and no contact from them, next bill should be in the post soon so when I get that I'll chase them again.

jontenoy

I am having a problem in Spencer House, IFSC with the district heating from BG Heat
Any idea who is a good plumber for this ?

boozezela

boozezela wrote: »

I was thinking to sue them for good.
Anyone has a solicitor already familiar with the matter here?

The new meter got damaged and stopped metering a couple of weeks ago, the bill which came today in the mail shows a different (higher) usage count, which could mean either that 1) BG Heat are estimating usage or that that 2) BG Heat are pulling usage estimates out of thin air.

So I will ask again: anyone can suggest a solicitor in D1/D2 that doesn't cost an arm and a leg? Because I am tired of waiting for a "solution" while the arrears pile up.