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Who do you think Jesus was

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    #182
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Look into your heart, you know the answer ... ;)
    Ah heart!, we aren't informed and aware about the truth of the heart's condition--


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    #183
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    dead one wrote: »
    "Madam"! would you kindly listen to "madman"?

    I'm glad you're finally acknowledging being a madman


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    #184
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    dead one wrote: »
    Ah heart!, we aren't informed and aware about the truth of the heart's condition--

    your not? dude, see a doctor


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    #185
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I'm glad you're finally acknowledging being a madman
    Yes i am madman in the village of atheists who are incapable of understanding the significance of madman's word because they have failed to experience words of madman, failed to understand the meaning of madman's word


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    #186
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    sensibleken wrote: »
    your not? dude, see a doctor
    Alas! i am cure less.


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    #187
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    dead one wrote: »
    Alas! i am cure less.

    Youre cure less! thats a very serious ill ness!


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    #188
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Youre cure less! thats a very serious ill ness!
    what is cure for it,


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    #189
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭smokingman


    dead one wrote: »
    what is cure for it,

    Common sense?


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    #190
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    smokingman wrote: »
    Common sense?
    Common sense is the collection of prejudices


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    #191
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    dead one wrote: »
    Common sense is the collection of prejudices

    So you've no problem sticking your hand in the fire?
    You don't look both ways when crossing the road?
    you don't use an umbrella or hooded jacket when it rains?
    The shortest distance between two points isn't a straight line?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #192
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    koth wrote: »
    So you've no problem sticking your hand in the fire?
    You don't look both ways when crossing the road?
    you don't use an umbrella or hooded jacket when it rains?
    The shortest distance between two points isn't a straight line?
    That's isn't common sense,
    “Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom.”
    and
    It requires wisdom to understand wisdom.


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    #193
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    dead one wrote: »
    That's isn't common sense,
    “Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom.”
    and
    It requires wisdom to understand wisdom.

    Actually it is common sense.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #194
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    koth wrote: »
    The shortest distance between two points isn't a straight line?

    No it's a geodesic :pac::pac::pac:


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    #195
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    bluewolf wrote: »
    No it's a geodesic :pac::pac::pac:

    fecking nerd!!!! :P:D

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #196
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    koth wrote: »
    Actually it is common sense.
    No, it's no common sense
    fecking nerd!!!! tongue.gifbiggrin.gif


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    #197
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    dead one wrote: »
    No, it's no common sense

    sorry but still wrong. Using the hand in fire as an example, people don't stick their hand in the fire because it is generally accepted that it's going to hurt.

    Thats what common sense is.

    Now if you still disagree, you best back up what you're saying by giving an example of what you interpret common sense to mean.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #198
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    koth wrote: »
    Thats what common sense is.
    I think dead-one is looking to expand the meaning of "common sense" so that he can include his own favorite religious stories too without them looking like common nonsense.


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    #199
    Donatello
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Donatello


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Spinning this off from another thread. The original post from me was



    It may be absurd to a Christian, but to me it seems a rather reasonable explanation or narrative for Jesus without the need to invoke any supernatural explanation.

    Jesus was a cult leader who manipulated people into worshipping him, following him and providing for him through claims to supernatural ability. Like the thousands of cult leaders before and after him.

    He eventually ran a foul of the authorities of the day and ended up being executed.

    Unable to deal with the reality that their all powerful cult leader was executed a story that he had rising from the dead developed.

    Seems pretty reasonable to me, with some Biblical support (baring in mind that the Bible is an account filtered through Christians so critical information is not likely to be found in it).

    Was just wondering what others think of how Jesus actually was, if you think he was actually someone at all.
    Why would his early followers have allowed themselves to be put to death for a myth? They knew Jesus, walked with Him, ate with Him after His resurrection, and then allowed themselves to be martyred. The success of this early Christian movement shows that something very powerful happened.

    I don't know about any other Christians, but if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then, as St. Paul said, this is one big waste of time, our faith is in vain and we are the most pitiable of men.

    His early followers - those who knew Him personally - went to the death of martyrdom for what they believed.


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    #200
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Donatello wrote: »
    Why would his early followers have allowed themselves to be put to death for a myth?

    I sincerely doubt that if I join the monks who burn themselves in the name of buddhism, or that if one of our resident atheists kills themselves in the name of atheism, that you would take this as evidence of truth and convert.

    People kill themselves for all manner of reasons all the time, and it is ridiculous to suggest that a bunch of people who we don't know, whose characters we cannot verify, gave any truth to the story by dying for it.


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    #201
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Donatello wrote: »
    They knew Jesus, walked with Him, ate with Him after His resurrection, and then allowed themselves to be martyred. The success of this early Christian movement shows that something very powerful happened.

    Whose to say all of that actually happened though? They could have very easily walked with him, loved him and died spreading his doctrine. All the magic parts of that story are unnecessary.

    It does, however, make a huge amount of sense that people would add and embelish events to stoke the legend later.
    His early followers - those who knew Him personally - went to the death of martyrdom for what they believed.

    People allow themselves to be martryed for the most absurd and trivial reasons. Look at Japan during WW2, or current day Islamic extremism. Hell, back in 2008 a man cut off his own head with a chainsaw becuase he was so strongly opposed to an eviction order.


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    #202
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Donatello wrote: »
    Why would his early followers have allowed themselves to be put to death for a myth?
    Probably the same reason that the folks whom I spoke with in North Korea said they'd be happy to die for the cause of DPRK communism.

    Are you saying that people wanting to die for some idea is sure proof that the idea is true? Or does it suggest that the people are nuts?


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    #203
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Donatello wrote: »
    Why would his early followers have allowed themselves to be put to death for a myth?

    Asked and answered and answered again and again.

    Donatello wrote: »
    They knew Jesus, walked with Him, ate with Him after His resurrection, and then allowed themselves to be martyred. The success of this early Christian movement shows that something very powerful happened.

    Based on?
    Donatello wrote: »
    I don't know about any other Christians, but if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then, as St. Paul said, this is one big waste of time, our faith is in vain and we are the most pitiable of men.

    Now you're getting it.


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    #204
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Donatello wrote: »
    Why would his early followers have allowed themselves to be put to death for a myth?

    Same reason any cult members allow themselves to be put to death for a myth. Look at something like Jonestown.

    Why would early Christianity be any different?


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    #205
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Asked and answered and answered again and again.
    +1

    One really can't help but think that a lot of the basis of Christianity is just naive people believing naive stories.


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    #206
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Same reason any cult members allow themselves to be put to death for a myth. Look at something like Jonestown.

    Why would early Christianity be any different?

    This has been explained to you serveral times WN. The difference is that the apostles would have been dying for WHAT THEY KNEW TO BE A LIE. A suicide bomber, a cult member, a kamikaze pilot etc, die for a belief. The apostles would have known that their stories were lies, so would have gone to their death for something they knew was a steaming pile. That, is highly unlikely. So from that perspective, the evidence would suggest that they certainly believed they saw the risen Christ, as well as all the signs they both seen and performed.


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    #207
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    JimiTime wrote: »
    This has been explained to you serveral times WN. The difference is that the apostles would have been dying for WHAT THEY KNEW TO BE A LIE. A suicide bomber, a cult member, a kamikaze pilot etc, die for a belief. The apostles would have known that their stories were lies, so would have gone to their death for something they knew was a steaming pile. That, is highly unlikely. So from that perspective, the evidence would suggest that they certainly believed they saw the risen Christ, as well as all the signs they both seen and performed.

    This assumes that the apostles wrote the gospels as they currently are now. Oldrnwisr is showing this not to be the case.

    Secondly, and this too has been explained to you before, the apostles could absolutely have been making it all up, then be caught and kill only to have the story of that, altered and embellished after the fact to make it appear like they were brave pious martyrs.

    Also it's possible that they were lying about all the magic stuff to help spread a moral message they felt strongly in.

    Or they could have just been duped by a cult leader.


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    #208
    b318isp
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭b318isp


    JimiTime wrote: »
    This has been explained to you serveral times WN. The difference is that the apostles would have been dying for WHAT THEY KNEW TO BE A LIE. A suicide bomber, a cult member, a kamikaze pilot etc, die for a belief. The apostles would have known that their stories were lies, so would have gone to their death for something they knew was a steaming pile. That, is highly unlikely. So from that perspective, the evidence would suggest that they certainly believed they saw the risen Christ, as well as all the signs they both seen and performed.

    For my own education, what is the view on the possibility that Jesus did NOT die on the cross? That he somehow survived and recovered after three days?


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    #209
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JimiTime wrote: »
    A suicide bomber, a cult member, a kamikaze pilot etc, die for a belief.
    And -- assuming for the moment that the gospel accounts are accurate -- the apostles would have died in the belief that they were going to go to heaven after they died.

    It's all just people getting themselves killed in the service of beliefs.


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    #210
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    b318isp wrote: »
    For my own education, what is the view on the possibility that Jesus did NOT die on the cross? That he somehow survived and recovered after three days?

    I don't really know anything about this premise. I can't see such a thing being posited outside of the realm of naturalism I.E. Positing that Jesus could NOT have done what is apportioned to him, so it must have been........etc. I'm not aware of any evidence suggesting that this occurred.
    robindch wrote: »
    And -- assuming for the moment that the gospel accounts are accurate -- the apostles would have died in the belief that they were going to go to heaven after they died.

    It's all just people getting themselves killed in the service of beliefs.

    No, the apostles would have been getting killed for something they DIDN'T actually believe, as they would have known it to be a lie which they themselves were making up. As i said, THATS the key difference. People die, for things they believe in, be they actually true or not. That is not in dispute. People, would not really be known for dying for things they KNOW is a lie.


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    #211
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JimiTime wrote: »
    No, the apostles would have been getting killed for something they DIDN'T actually believe, as they would have known it to be a lie which they themselves were making up.
    I'm talking about the apostles believing that they were going to heaven.

    Are you saying that they didn't believe they were going there?


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