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Who do you think Jesus was

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12357…13

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    #122
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    b318isp wrote: »
    How can God judge something that he has or hasn't gifted? If it is is his decision on whether we are gifted or not, what judgement is required?

    If someone is not gifted by God, why should that person spend eternity in damnation for something that is beyond their control?

    Because the central argument of Christianity was made up quickly and without that much consideration by a group of grief stricken cultists who's leader had just been executed by the Romans... just a thought :pac:


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    #123
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Wicknight wrote: »
    If you don't care why did you remind me of something? See even you can't stop yourself.
    ;)
    I reminded you of your conjecture. ;)
    see
    "Everybody liked better to conjecture how the thing was, than simply to know it; for conjecture soon became more confident than knowledge, and had a more liberal allowance for the incompatible."
    See "for conjecture soon became more confident than knowledge. "
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Spinning this off from another thread. The original post from me was
    It may be absurd to a Christian, but to me it seems a rather reasonable explanation or narrative for Jesus without the need to invoke any supernatural explanation.
    Jesus was a cult leader who manipulated people into worshipping him, following him and providing for him through claims to supernatural ability. Like the thousands of cult leaders before and after him.
    He eventually ran a foul of the authorities of the day and ended up being executed.
    Unable to deal with the reality that their all powerful cult leader was executed a story that he had rising from the dead developed.
    Seems pretty reasonable to me, with some Biblical support (baring in mind that the Bible is an account filtered through Christians so critical information is not likely to be found in it).

    Was just wondering what others think of how Jesus actually was, if you think he was actually someone at all.


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    #124
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    dead one wrote: »
    I reminded you of your conjecture. ;)
    see
    "Everybody liked better to conjecture how the thing was, than simply to know it; for conjecture soon became more confident than knowledge, and had a more liberal allowance for the incompatible."
    See "for conjecture soon became more confident than knowledge. "

    then one day knowledge got a new haircut and the villagers complimented him on his new do. His self-esteem rose so much that he ran for the office of mayor, and much to his surprise, he won :P:P

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #125
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Wicknight wrote: »
    the central argument of Christianity was made up quickly and without that much consideration by a group of grief stricken cultists who's leader had just been executed by the Romans.
    Executed by the Romans, or their appointees, but at the behest of the dominant religious hierarchy in the region who felt threatened by his ideas.

    Think of that -- Jesus himself, the victim of religious violence by proxy.

    So, the religion started as it continued, save they eventually got by without the proxy.


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    #126
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    dead one wrote: »
    I reminded you of your conjecture. ;)

    Why, if you don't care what I said?

    Are you admitting now that Mohammad raped children?


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    #127
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Why, if you don't care what I said?
    Alright i care for your conjecture!!!!
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Are you admitting now that Mohammad raped children?
    Why i should admit your conjecture!!!
    koth wrote:
    then one day knowledge got a new haircut and the villagers complimented him on his new do. His self-esteem rose so much that he ran for the office of mayor, and much to his surprise, he won

    Good for the knowledge!!!!


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    #128
    Hookah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hookah


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Why, if you don't care what I said?

    Are you admitting now that Mohammad raped children?

    What makes you say Mohammad raped children?

    Did you read it in a book somewhere?


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    #129
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    Hookah wrote: »
    What makes you say Mohammad raped children?

    Did you read it in a book somewhere?

    It's common agreement that Aisha was only 9 when her marriage to Muhammhad was consummated.


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    #130
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    fatmammycat wrote: »
    It's common agreement that Aisha was only 9 when her marriage to Muhammhad was consummated.

    Now the question is what will Dead one do now...
    Deny what's in the Koran or try to explain how sex with a 9 year old isn't rape?


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    #131
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    King Mob wrote: »
    Now the question is what will Dead one do now...
    Deny what's in the Koran or try to explain how sex with a 9 year old isn't rape?

    Going on past history he will either ignore it or type something meaningless as a 'rebuttal'. There may be some emoticons involved.


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    #132
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    dead one wrote: »
    Why i should admit your conjecture!!!

    You should always admit the truth. Unless you are you scared of it, scared to face up to it? It is ok to admit that as well, so long as you do.


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    #133
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Hookah wrote: »
    What makes you say Mohammad raped children?

    Did you read it in a book somewhere?

    I read it in THE book. The book of life. The truth. The word.


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    #134
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    fatmammycat wrote: »
    It's common agreement that Aisha was only 9 when her marriage to Muhammhad was consummated.
    Not common agreement, See the conjecture which you are following, The age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. There is issue on age of Ayesha.
    King Mob wrote: »
    Now the question is what will Dead one do now...
    Deny what's in the Koran or try to explain how sex with a 9 year old isn't rape?
    Koran doesn't say anything about age of ayesha.
    See i don't follow conjecture, i follow knowledge and i have answer. The answer is, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith.
    fatmammycat wrote: »
    Going on past history he will either ignore it or type something meaningless as a 'rebuttal'. There may be some emoticons involved.
    what do you mean by meaningless, Ah i guess which has some meaning according to confirmation bias.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    You should always admit the truth. Unless you are you scared of it, scared to face up to it? It is ok to admit that as well, so long as you do.
    The truth which you are believing is conjecture because you are not eyes witness of marriage. You were not invited at the mirrage of Muhammad, you are following historian and narrators "History is full of liars"
    Wicknight wrote: »
    I read it in THE book. The book of life. The truth. The word.
    Have you read it in quran???


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    #135
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    dead one wrote: »
    Not common agreement, See the conjecture which you are following, The age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. There is issue on age of Ayesha.

    Koran doesn't say anything about age of ayesha.
    See i don't follow conjecture, i follow knowledge and i have answer. The answer is, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith.

    How do you know? You say yourself the quran doesn't mention her age and you're dismissing the hadith, even though it's considered by many Muslims to be the most authentic document they have second only to the quran itself.

    The truth which you are believing is conjecture because you are not eyes witness of marriage. You were not invited at the mirrage of Muhammad, you are following historian and narrators "History is full of liars"

    you didn't witness the marriage either. And you're just dismissing the historians and narrators that do mention the age of Ayesha because you disagree with them.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #136
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    dead one wrote: »
    Not common agreement, See the conjecture which you are following, The age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. There is issue on age of Ayesha.

    Koran doesn't say anything about age of ayesha.
    See i don't follow conjecture, i follow knowledge and i have answer. The answer is, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith.

    what do you mean by meaningless, Ah i guess which has some meaning according to confirmation bias.

    The truth which you are believing is conjecture because you are not eyes witness of marriage. You were not invited at the mirrage of Muhammad, you are following historian and narrators "History is full of liars"

    Have you read it in quran???

    See, meaningless. What age was Aisha when she married? He has no idea, but everyone else is wrong.


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    #137
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    koth wrote: »
    How do you know? You say yourself the quran doesn't mention her age and you're dismissing the hadith, even though it's considered by many Muslims to be the most authentic document they have second only to the quran itself.
    I am not rejecting anything, I am saying there is issue of age. Most narrations carry misstatements about the age of Hazrat ayesha at the time of her marriage to the Holy Prophet, (peach and blessings of Allah be upon him).
    koth wrote: »
    you didn't witness the marriage either. And you're just dismissing the historians and narrators that do mention the age of Ayesha because you disagree with them.
    It requires wisdom to understand wisdom.

    It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

    Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives.

    For further information read this article

    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/holy-prophet-mohammad-pbuhs-marriages-2.html


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    #138
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    http://www.antisharia.com/2011/04/12/documentary-evidence-that-aisha-consummated-her-marriage-with-muhammad-at-age-9/

    Meh, not that I care too much one way or the other. Islam is not my religion, it's just anther form of woo to me.


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    #139
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    dead one wrote: »
    The truth which you are believing is conjecture because you are not eyes witness of marriage. You were not invited at the mirrage of Muhammad, you are following historian and narrators "History is full of liars"

    The truth is the truth. in your heart you know it. But you are blind to it because you refuse to see. I can only help you see, I cannot make you.
    Have you read it in quran???

    That is the wrong question to ask. The question should be have you understood it. Anyone can read a book, but to understand it takes a leap of faith. When you are prepared to do that I can help you.


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    #140
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    dead one wrote: »
    I am not rejecting anything, I am saying there is issue of age. Most narrations carry misstatements about the age of Hazrat ayesha at the time of her marriage to the Holy Prophet, (peach and blessings of Allah be upon him).
    all narritives i've seen put her age at no more than 10 when the marriage happened. you haven't answered one way or the other btw. so what age approximately do you believe she was married at?
    It requires wisdom to understand wisdom.

    It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

    Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives.

    For further information read this article

    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/holy-prophet-mohammad-pbuhs-marriages-2.html

    a blog holds more weight than the hadith??

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #141
    Hookah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hookah


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I read it in THE book. The book of life. The truth. The word.

    I find it odd, especially given the context of the thread, that you would accept as 'fact' that 'Mohammad raped children'.

    That Aisha was nine years of age when her marriage to Mohammad was consummated appears in the hadith of Bukhari, written some 200 years after the 'fact'.

    There's evidence to suggest that Bukhari was wrong in respect of her age, casting doubt on that claim.

    There's plenty of evidence to suggest they had a very strong relationship, casting doubt on the claim of rape. Casting a 21st century perspective on 7th century practices might muddle one's viewpoint a little.

    That you would dispute the 'facts' concerning one cult leader in the thread, but religiously accept the 'facts' concerning another, where it gives you a metaphorical stick with which to beat Dead One (I'm assuming he/she is a theist) is a little ironic.

    Since some doubt has been shed on the 'fact', perhaps agnosticism would be the best course to follow with regard to the matter.


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    #142
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Hookah wrote: »
    I find it odd, especially given the context of the thread, that you would accept as 'fact' that 'Mohammad raped children'.

    That Aisha was nine years of age when her marriage to Mohammad was consummated appears in the hadith of Bukhari, written some 200 years after the 'fact'.

    There's evidence to suggest that Bukhari was wrong in respect of her age, casting doubt on that claim.

    There's plenty of evidence to suggest they had a very strong relationship, casting doubt on the claim of rape. Casting a 21st century perspective on 7th century practices might muddle one's viewpoint a little.

    That you would dispute the 'facts' concerning one cult leader in the thread, but religiously accept the 'facts' concerning another, where it gives you a metaphorical stick with which to beat Dead One (I'm assuming he/she is a theist) is a little ironic.

    Since some doubt has been shed on the 'fact', perhaps agnosticism would be the best course to follow with regard to the matter.

    If dead one cannot see the truth then all the 'facts' are irrelevant. The blind are blind, that is the truth.

    Dead one knows in his heart that Mohammad raped children. He knows that where it matters. But because of his selfish desires he shields that knowledge from the rest of him. I can only help him try and see this, for the sake of his own soul. I cannot make him see the truth.


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    #143
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    dead one wrote: »
    Koran doesn't say anything about age of ayesha.
    See i don't follow conjecture, i follow knowledge and i have answer. The answer is, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith.

    Welp... at least it's better than trying to justify rape.

    So then how come most Islamic scholars all agree that she was 9 or 10?
    Why does the Ahadith mis-report her age?
    what age do you think she was?


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    #144
    Hookah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Hookah


    Wicknight wrote: »
    If dead one cannot see the truth then all the 'facts' are irrelevant. The blind are blind, that is the truth.

    Dead one knows in his heart that Mohammad raped children. He knows that where it matters. But because of his selfish desires he shields that knowledge from the rest of him. I can only help him try and see this, for the sake of his own soul. I cannot make him see the truth.

    Nice to know you have his best interests at heart.

    What did you think of the discrepancies with regard to Aisha's age in the article he posted?


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    #145
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Hookah wrote: »
    Nice to know you have his best interests at heart.

    Don't we all?
    Hookah wrote: »
    What did you think of the discrepancies with regard to Aisha's age in the article he posted?

    More blindness on his part. He knows the truth, he just can't admit it to himself. Until he does he will continue to be unable to see the truth.


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    #146
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Wicknight wrote: »
    The truth is the truth. in your heart you know it. But you are blind to it because you refuse to see. I can only help you see, I cannot make you.
    Alright tell me why i should believe in man made books which carry misstatements. You are saying that i should admit "Muhammad Raped children" and i have to admit this fact by reading those books which were written by mens. If that is case than why you don't believe Bible as inspired of God, why Jesus Christ isn't your Lord, why you investigate bible with truth. Answer why i should believe "Muhammad Raped children" by reading man made books. I can only believe "Muhammad raped children" if you can show it to me from Koran.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    That is the wrong question to ask. The question should be have you understood it. Anyone can read a book, but to understand it takes a leap of faith. When you are prepared to do that I can help you.
    Yes help me, So i can see what you have!!!
    koth wrote: »
    all narritives i've seen put her age at no more than 10 when the marriage happened. you haven't answered one way or the other btw. so what age approximately do you believe she was married at?
    19 or 20 years old
    koth wrote: »
    a blog holds more weight than the hadith??
    I m not speaking on behalf of other muslim but for me blog carries more weight than the hadith in this particular issue because it investigates the truth.
    Now answer me does your logic carry more weight than Bible. Why you reject Bible, if you answer it to your mind than you will understand what i am saying.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    If dead one cannot see the truth then all the 'facts' are irrelevant. The blind are blind, that is the truth.
    Tell, have you seen the truth with your own eyes or the truth is man made history and it is also proved history is full of liars.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    I cannot make him see the truth.
    Alright what is evidence for truth.
    King Mob wrote: »
    Welp... at least it's better than trying to justify rape.

    So then how come most Islamic scholars all agree that she was 9 or 10?
    Why does the Ahadith mis-report her age?
    what age do you think she was?

    Have you to try to read this
    According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

    According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi' b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18
    to 20 years old at the time of her marriage. Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/holy-prophet-mohammad-pbuhs-marriages-2.html
    It contains answer for all of your claims but problem is you aren't going to read it


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    #147
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Dave! wrote: »
    False prophet tbh

    Do you mean false as in not a real prophet like say ....allah

    Jesus was a carpenter with the gift of the gab.


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    #148
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    dead one wrote: »
    Have you to try to read this


    It contains answer for all of your claims but problem is you aren't going to read it
    Ah... blogspot, the hive of scholarly research.


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    #149
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    dead one wrote: »
    19 or 20 years old
    thanks for the answer:)
    I m not speaking on behalf of other muslim but for me blog carries more weight than the hadith in this particular issue because it investigates the truth.
    then why does the quran say it's ok to marry a girl who hasn't reached purberty if there is no truth that children were married off at a young age?

    Any other writings that you believe to be untrue?
    Now answer me does your logic carry more weight than Bible. Why you reject Bible, if you answer it to your mind than you will understand what i am saying.
    Thats actually not a fair comparison. You believe the quran to be the truth but discount the story of a girl being married off because you disagree with it.

    I on the other hand, am not a Christian, so I don't have the equivalent problem with the bible. It's just another collection of religious stories/myths.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #150
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    koth wrote: »
    then why does the quran say it's ok to marry a girl who hasn't reached purberty if there is no truth that children were married off at a young age?
    reference please!!!! . when you talk about Quran always give reference with your words. Give me reference of that verse!!!!
    There is no question that marriage with infant babies and young children is forbidden in Islam. Allah Almighty made this quite clear for us in the Noble Verses
    And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant.

    http://quran.com/4/6
    koth wrote: »
    Thats actually not a fair comparison. You believe the quran to be the truth but discount the story of a girl being married off because you disagree with it.

    There is no question that marriage with infant babies and young children is forbidden in Islam. I have shown you, point view of Quran in this case and i also had shown that there are misstatements about age of ayesha in history.
    koth wrote: »
    I on the other hand, am not a Christian, so I don't have the equivalent problem with the bible.
    It's just another collection of religious stories/myths.
    Yes i know you aren't christian
    koth wrote: »
    It's just another collection of religious stories/myths.
    This is point, you called bible collection of stories because your human logic isn't going to accept it so is the case of mirrage of ayesha, the age has been grossly mistaken in those books.


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    #151
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,726 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    dead one wrote: »
    reference please!!!! . when you talk about Quran always give reference with your words. Give me reference of that verse!!!!
    There is no question that marriage with infant babies and young children is forbidden in Islam. Allah Almighty made this quite clear for us in the Noble Verses


    There is no question that marriage with infant babies and young children is forbidden in Islam. I have shown you, point view of Quran in this case and i also had shown that there are misstatements about age of ayesha in history.

    This is the passage that says it's ok to marry children:
    "Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."

    Qur'an 65:4
    Yes i know you aren't christian

    This is point, you called bible collection of stories because your human logic isn't going to accept it so is the case of mirrage of ayesha, the age has been grossly mistaken in those books.

    because I don't accept the bible as truth, the age of aisha is wrongl stated in the hadith?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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