Clonmel Thread

iceage

And don't get me started on the closure of Kickham Barracks! The Mayor, God bless his cotton socks.... What a complete waste and space and Oxygen.

Oh and as a by the way.....What twat thought up the hike in the parking rate in most of Clonmel from €1 to €1.20! The last Mayor, another waste of space when quizzed on it could only smile, dodge the issue and completely change the subject! Wasters.

touts

Can someone please explain to me why a few lads running around playing soldiers is so critical to the town at a time when more vital services like the hospital is under threat. What exactly does the barracks bring to Clonmel beyond a few extra lads shopping in Tesco? I feel much more worried about the actual industries closing down around the town than the barracks. As a taxpayer I just dont see the Army as value for money. At this point it must be the most expensive form of social welfare in the world. Even if we pensioned them all off on full salaries (and therefore they would still be around the town spending their money) we still would save tens of millions annually on equipment, facilities etc.

DT100

ReacherCreature wrote: »

You been livin' under a rock DT?

Is specsavers still in the same place?:)

iceage

Yes I can Touts..How long have you got? But by the sounds of your post I'd be totally wasting my time, wouldn't I?

touts

iceage wrote: »

Yes I can Touts..How long have you got? But by the sounds of your post I'd be totally wasting my time, wouldn't I?

If someone can make a coherent realistic argument as to why it makes economic sense to keep the barracks open then no it would not a waste of your time. However if you are going to make the typical incoherent unrealistic waffle about some vague potential benefits to the local economy then yes you will be wasting your time and more importantly you will be wasting ours.

ReacherCreature

touts wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me why a few lads running around playing soldiers is so critical to the town at a time when more vital services like the hospital is under threat.

Ignorance.

What exactly does the barracks bring to Clonmel beyond a few extra lads shopping in Tesco?

I think you're understating the impact this closure may have. You're talking about dozens of parents, families, spouses suffering.

DaveJac

Its closing, but are most of the people not being relocated to kilkenny and other places around i herd could be wrong?? so hopefully might not have too much of an impact in clonmel

iceage

Correct Davejac Kilkenny is one of them. Kickham seems to be only one barracks on a list of others facing closure.

Its impact will be felt for sure thoughout the town as well as the families being directly effected lets not forget about the beleagued businesses and traders of the town that have been dealing with the barracks for countless numbers of years and rely on them heavily for their trade not to mention all the other Civvie empoyees of the barracks. This is just another kick in the teeth and I reckon that we're going to see more businesses closing their doors as a direct effect of the closure, a point I fear that touts has missed altogether I reckon.

Touts you have a right to your opinion this is after all an open forum and as to your point about the hospital I totally agree you are correct. But..

As to the industries that surround Clonmel, which do you refer too? Is it Boston who rattled recently but settled everyone's cough with a cheque for millions recently.. Said mayor reckons he had a hand in it. Did he f*ck. Is it Abbott who advertised and took on 95 people with the majority from outside the town! MSD down the round also just opened their new R&D extension worth X million yoyos as well. All three Company's are Pharma/medical devices and American and were enticed and suckled for the tax incentives that this Country offers but lets not forget what happened when Seagate upped sticks and swanned off shall we.

If I was to have a bitch about "local Industries" I'd be more put out about the likes of company's such as JRE who just folded with the loss of 147 employees and what does the powers that be concentrate on? The latest extension to the waste of space white elephant that is the Showgrounds.. of course that's what clonmel needs, more takeaways, Womens fashion boutiques and bloody €2 discount stores.

As to your description of what the Army does and Kickham Barracks's, how did you put it "a few lads running around playing soldiers input to the local economy of Clonmel smacks of ill informed drivel and truthfully a very narrow minded outlook. Either that or your just trying to cause an argument, which is it?

touts

iceage wrote: »

Correct Davejac Kilkenny is one of them. Kickham seems to be only one barracks on a list of others facing closure.

Its impact will be felt for sure thoughout the town as well as the families being directly effected lets not forget about the beleagued businesses and traders of the town that have been dealing with the barracks for countless numbers of years and rely on them heavily for their trade not to mention all the other Civvie empoyees of the barracks. This is just another kick in the teeth and I reckon that we're going to see more businesses closing their doors as a direct effect of the closure, a point I fear that touts has missed altogether I reckon.

Touts you have a right to your opinion this is after all an open forum and as to your point about the hospital I totally agree you are correct. But..

As to the industries that surround Clonmel, which do you refer too? Is it Boston who rattled recently but settled everyone's cough with a cheque for millions recently.. Said mayor reckons he had a hand in it. Did he f*ck. Is it Abbott who advertised and took on 95 people with the majority from outside the town! MSD down the round also just opened their new R&D extension worth X million yoyos as well. All three Company's are Pharma/medical devices and American and were enticed and suckled for the tax incentives that this Country offers but lets not forget what happened when Seagate upped sticks and swanned off shall we.

If I was to have a bitch about "local Industries" I'd be more put out about the likes of company's such as JRE who just folded with the loss of 147 employees and what does the powers that be concentrate on? The latest extension to the waste of space white elephant that is the Showgrounds.. of course that's what clonmel needs, more takeaways, Womens fashion boutiques and bloody €2 discount stores.

As to your description of what the Army does and Kickham Barracks's, how did you put it "a few lads running around playing soldiers input to the local economy of Clonmel smacks of ill informed drivel and truthfully a very narrow minded outlook. Either that or your just trying to cause an argument, which is it?

So it's won't someone think of the families. JRE folded and put 145 families on the dole and it hardly got a mention here. But the Barracks that must be important because..... well because it must be.

I ask again why is the barracks that important. If we pensioned off the lads in there on full pensions (even full pay) we would save millions in equipment and upkeep (very little of which I suspect is manufactured in Clonmel or is contracted to Clonmel businesses). That wouldn't hurt the families and would still save the taxpayer a lot of money. And if we stood down the army in Clonmel it is not as if the Huns will come streaming through the unguarded Vee. Arm more Gardai and I can see no need for the Army.

So tell me why is the barracks important to Clonmel. What is the economic benefit and what is the strategic benefit. I see little of either but am willing to listen if someone can put forward a sensible coherent argument.

ReacherCreature

touts wrote: »

So it's won't someone think of the families.

Obviously it's a factor.

I ask again why is the barracks that important. If we pensioned off the lads in there on full pensions (even full pay) we would save millions in equipment and upkeep (very little of which I suspect is manufactured in Clonmel or is contracted to Clonmel businesses). That wouldn't hurt the families and would still save the taxpayer a lot of money. And if we stood down the army in Clonmel it is not as if the Huns will come streaming through the unguarded Vee. Arm more Gardai and I can see no need for the Army.

It's actually ironic touts. You ask for this:

I see little of either but am willing to listen if someone can put forward a sensible coherent argument.

and then put forward a ridiculously irrelevant piece of history forward that has zero context.

touts

ReacherCreature wrote: »

touts wrote: »

So it's won't someone think of the families.

Obviously it's a factor.

I ask again why is the barracks that important. If we pensioned off the lads in there on full pensions (even full pay) we would save millions in equipment and upkeep (very little of which I suspect is manufactured in Clonmel or is contracted to Clonmel businesses). That wouldn't hurt the families and would still save the taxpayer a lot of money. And if we stood down the army in Clonmel it is not as if the Huns will come streaming through the unguarded Vee. Arm more Gardai and I can see no need for the Army.

It's actually ironic touts. You ask for this:

I see little of either but am willing to listen if someone can put forward a sensible coherent argument.

and then put forward a ridiculously irrelevant piece of history forward that has zero context.

So the answer is: no you cant come up with any justification for keeping Clonmel Barracks open. Can anyone else. Genuinely. What is the real economic or strategic benefit of having a small detachment of soldiers in Clonmel. Why does the army barracks justify such long discussion and such strong support but the closures of comanies like Quinn or JRE barely gets mentoned. Surely as taxpayers the reverse should be the case.

iceage

Ok Touts just as an exercise, lets say the barracks closes(not a case of if but when really) and all the boys playing soldiers go away to some other barracks in some other town and spend their money elsewhere, what would you suggest be done with Kickham Barracks? just for sh*ts and giggles like.

dahat

With the Barracks likely to go now who will get the Old Bridge folk into town if it floods again????won't be any Army trucks about the town....:D




Is the Barracks protected land or something to that effect?

iceage

Civil Defence I reckon. They've been doing it all the years I can remember but as you say, those big trucks sure come in handy and create a wicked bow wave

touts

iceage wrote: »

Ok Touts just as an exercise, lets say the barracks closes(not a case of if but when really) and all the boys playing soldiers go away to some other barracks in some other town and spend their money elsewhere, what would you suggest be done with Kickham Barracks? just for sh*ts and giggles like.

Stop spending taxpayers money on it. Strip out what can be moved to the Curragh. Mothball the rest. Send a couple of lads over from Kilkenny or Limerick to cut the grass and spray the weeds and guard it at night to prevent squatters moving in. We are paying them anyway so better guard duty and gardening in Clonmel than peacekeeping in Beruit. Eventually sell the land, buildings and contents, whole or in pieces, as soon as someone offers a fair price.

Oh and can you please give a figure of what the barracks brings in to the clonmel economy given there: are not that many soldiers there. They earn feck all, most of them are single and live, are fed and socialise on the base. Supplies are centrally sourced with contracts from the Curragh. The military equipment comes from european arms manufacturers. So please give a figure for what they add to the Clonmel economy versus what JRE added to the Clonmel economy. Please answer that. Just for sh*ts and giggles like.

Vizzy

touts wrote: »

Stop spending taxpayers money on it. Strip out what can be moved to the Curragh. Mothball the rest. Send a couple of lads over from Kilkenny or Limerick to cut the grass and spray the weeds and guard it at night to prevent squatters moving in. We are paying them anyway so better guard duty and gardening in Clonmel than peacekeeping in Beruit. Eventually sell the land, buildings and contents, whole or in pieces, as soon as someone offers a fair price.

Oh and can you please give a figure of what the barracks brings in to the clonmel economy given there: are not that many soldiers there. They earn feck all, most of them are single and live, are fed and socialise on the base. Supplies are centrally sourced with contracts from the Curragh. The military equipment comes from european arms manufacturers. So please give a figure for what they add to the Clonmel economy versus what JRE added to the Clonmel economy. Please answer that. Just for sh*ts and giggles like.

The irony here is that most of JRE business was not in South Tipperary
but,wait for it,



One of their main contracts currently is providing the electrical work on the new FCA headquarters in Templemore(according to the Dept of Defense anyway)

iceage

Sorry no can do, I'm not privy to those figures tell you what give the barracks a bell and ask for the Commandant, I can PM you the name and number if you'd like? I thought you'd have a far better idea than just redeploying lads from Sarsfields and Kilkenny to babysit the place frankly I'm rather dissapointed.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say offer it to the Guards? They're looking for a new pad so I'm told, so rather than spend anymore taxpayers money on building a multi million euro black hole of a building site with no idea what the final figure will be, lets renovate the place, give it a lick of paint, build some higher walls, its even got its own gym and heli pad! Sure the lads wouldn't know themselves once they's settled in.

Your disrespectful remarks and opinion of the members of this Country's Defense forces is really starting to grate Touts. What they earn is what they earn laid down by the Government, extra paid duties are bloody rare and as to peacekeeping overseas..that's part of the job, don't knock it. For your information every Army purchases from other Countries Ireland gainfully exports military hardware and has done for years.

Amtmann

I think touts makes an interesting point. All he's asking for is a detailed example of the barracks' cost-benefit ratio. Clearly the people who've made the decision to close it have some reason.

iceage

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/document+id/587FA6400A31525D80256C63005BE928

http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/document+ID/F3A8618F8F8F961680256C61004C6F29

Sorted.

touts

iceage wrote: »

Sorry no can do, I'm not privy to those figures tell you what give the barracks a bell and ask for the Commandant, I can PM you the name and number if you'd like? I thought you'd have a far better idea than just redeploying lads from Sarsfields and Kilkenny to babysit the place frankly I'm rather dissapointed.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say offer it to the Guards? They're looking for a new pad so I'm told, so rather than spend anymore taxpayers money on building a multi million euro black hole of a building site with no idea what the final figure will be, lets renovate the place, give it a lick of paint, build some higher walls, its even got its own gym and heli pad! Sure the lads wouldn't know themselves once they's settled in.

Your disrespectful remarks and opinion of the members of this Country's Defense forces is really starting to grate Touts. What they earn is what they earn laid down by the Government, extra paid duties are bloody rare and as to peacekeeping overseas..that's part of the job, don't knock it. For your information every Army purchases from other Countries Ireland gainfully exports military hardware and has done for years.

You're the one claiming it is hugely valuable to the Clonmel economy. You are the one that needs to back up that claim with figures rather than waffle. I'm confident in my side of the argument from my observations of the limited interaction between the barracks and the local economy. In my opinion the figures either don't exist or are extremely small so why the hell would I waste my valuable time pouring through accounts looking for evidence of something that does not exist. Your opinion is that the benefit exists and that the figures are so large that it is essential to Clonmel so they should be easy to find. You need to defend your position and I'm not going to do your research for you.

dahat

Any one got a recommendation for a good sports physio in clonmel that wont fleece me rotten....

iceage

http://www.nationalist.ie/news/local/borough_council_to_petition_president_on_barracks_future_1_3140684

http://www.nationalist.ie/news/local/barracks_closure_would_break_a_thread_stretching_back_350_years_1_3140859

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqK9PgRkiYg

My last word on the subject. If you can't take my word for it, at least consider those more erudite and informed than myself in the above articles in the Local Nationalist. I must admit I was taken aback by the figures. I thought some of the historic references to Kickham's past might be of interest to some, not all here as well.

The last link is to an interview with some of the members of the save Kickham barracks appeal, There's going to be a public demonstration/march taking place this Saturday 22 Oct starting at 2pm starting at the top of Irishtown if any here are interested in attending.

tippspur

If they close it down could they leave the cheap bar?;)

touts

OK since no one is able to put forward the argument to keep the barracks open let me summarise the information contained in the articles and the youtube interview. Make of them what you will:

Economic
The councilors claim that the value to the town might be €4million or €5million or possibly up to €6million if you include St Michael's hospital in the figures.
The Soldiers wives claim that €10 million a year will be lost to the town
An expert who had researched the figures said that the government will save over €200,000 a year by closing the barracks but it will cost over €4million to relocate the soldiers to Limerick.
There are 220 soldiers, if not more, in the barracks plus a secretary and the staff in the board of works located on the barracks might lose their jobs.
Several FCA camps come in during the summer and they spend their money around the town.
All the businesses around the area would be impacted

Strategic
It helps recruitment to the army reserves
The barracks helps to move people during the floods.
The barracks are the only service on standby on christmas day if there is snow or ice.
Helicopters can land there safely for organ transplant etc when the helicopter might not be safe to leave parked in the GAA field or similar.
They protect bank deliveries
They do a lot of other secret work that can't be discussed even with their families.


Families
The men need to be close to their children.
The family as a whole will be impacted.
It will cost 3000 to 4000 a year for the families to commute to Limerick/Kilkenny/Cork
They are already seeing cuts in pay via pension levy etc which has seen their wages drop by €200 a week.
It will cost over €150 a week in petrol or diesel to commute to Limerick.
They can't get loans from the bank to buy cars to commute to Limerick
They will get €1000 compensation for the move which will not be enough to allow the family relocate especially if the wife is working and would have to leave her job.
What happens if a husband and wife both work in the barracks and are moved and are rostered to be on duty at the same time.

Historical
It would break 350 years of military presence in the town

Social
It is good for large celebrations like the recent parish celebration.

Political campaign:
There is a committee of 10 that seems to be mainly wives of soldiers
There was a meeting with officially 300 people but unofficially the committee estimate 500 people were there
The Mayor and all the councilors support keeping the barracks
All the local TDs support it except apparently Tom Hayes who they are "disappointed with"
The campaign will continue with support from local groups. There will be a march in the town on 22nd October starting from Irish town to Parnell street
The wives committee will not give up without a fight.

DT100

touts wrote: »

OK since no one is able to put forward the argument to keep the barracks open let me summarise the information contained in the articles and the youtube interview. Make of them what you will:

Economic
The councilors claim that the value to the town might be €4million or €5million or possibly up to €6million if you include St Michael's hospital in the figures.
The Soldiers wives claim that €10 million a year will be lost to the town
An expert who had researched the figures said that the government will save over €200,000 a year by closing the barracks but it will cost over €4million to relocate the soldiers to Limerick.
There are 220 soldiers, if not more, in the barracks plus a secretary and the staff in the board of works located on the barracks might lose their jobs.
Several FCA camps come in during the summer and they spend their money around the town.
All the businesses around the area would be impacted

Strategic
It helps recruitment to the army reserves
The barracks helps to move people during the floods.
The barracks are the only service on standby on christmas day if there is snow or ice.
Helicopters can land there safely for organ transplant etc when the helicopter might not be safe to leave parked in the GAA field or similar.
They protect bank deliveries
They do a lot of other secret work that can't be discussed even with their families.


Families
The men need to be close to their children.
The family as a whole will be impacted.
It will cost 3000 to 4000 a year for the families to commute to Limerick/Kilkenny/Cork
They are already seeing cuts in pay via pension levy etc which has seen their wages drop by €200 a week.
It will cost over €150 a week in petrol or diesel to commute to Limerick.
They can't get loans from the bank to buy cars to commute to Limerick
They will get €1000 compensation for the move which will not be enough to allow the family relocate especially if the wife is working and would have to leave her job.
What happens if a husband and wife both work in the barracks and are moved and are rostered to be on duty at the same time.

Historical
It would break 350 years of military presence in the town

Social
It is good for large celebrations like the recent parish celebration.

Political campaign:
There is a committee of 10 that seems to be mainly wives of soldiers
There was a meeting with officially 300 people but unofficially the committee estimate 500 people were there
The Mayor and all the councilors support keeping the barracks
All the local TDs support it except apparently Tom Hayes who they are "disappointed with"
The campaign will continue with support from local groups. There will be a march in the town on 22nd October starting from Irish town to Parnell street
The wives committee will not give up without a fight.

You said no one could give an argument why the barracks should stay open,then posted the argument from the links given.What else do you think the articles are if not the argument.I guess you wont be on the march Saturday?I hope if you ever need support in the case of your employment under threat,that you get more than you are giving in this instance.

touts

DT100 wrote: »

You said no one could give an argument why the barracks should stay open,then posted the argument from the links given.What else do you think the articles are if not the argument.I guess you wont be on the march Saturday?I hope if you ever need support in the case of your employment under threat,that you get more than you are giving in this instance.

And no one has other than pointing to a few articles with vague figures seemingly plucked out of the air by councillors and a video of an interview with the wives of the soldiers who are actually making an argument (although some of their figures look to be a little exaggerated). Since no one here seems to know anything about the cause they are arguing for I decided to summarise the argument of the wives for people who don't have the time to listen to the 15 minute interview.

And my employment has been under threat, has been lost and as an employee in the private sector my current employment remains constantly under threat in the current economic climate.

DT100

touts wrote: »

And no one has other than pointing to a few articles with vague figures seemingly plucked out of the air by councillors and a video of an interview with the wives of the soldiers who are actually making an argument (although some of their figures look to be a little exaggerated). Since no one here seems to know anything about the cause they are arguing for I decided to summarise the argument of the wives for people who don't have the time to listen to the 15 minute interview.

And my employment has been under threat, has been lost and as an employee in the private sector my current employment remains constantly under threat in the current economic climate.

To be honest,I thought your posts were condescending.I am glad that you are currently employed.I would hate to see any job under threat,be it private or public sector.Maybe your posts are not condescending,but more of an anger at the public sector????

touts

DT100 wrote: »

To be honest,I thought your posts were condescending.I am glad that you are currently employed.I would hate to see any job under threat,be it private or public sector.Maybe your posts are not condescending,but more of an anger at the public sector????

I think a lot of the opponents to the closure are overly defensive and are viewing any request for information as either an attack or as condencending. I would hate to see anyone lose their job. I think redeployment and consolidation (which is what this proposal on the barracks really is) is preferrable to job losses. It will be painful as outlined by the wives of the soldiers in their interview but we simply cannot continue as we are. Redeployment to another barracks now may be preferrable to redundancy within 2 years after the state is forced to default.

iceage

You'll be at the march then touts?

Fionn

the thing about the closure of Kickham Barracks is the fact that this constituency has no power, make no mistake, this is nothing to do with efficiency or rationalisation, this is a political decision, the government are basing their rationale on reports that are at this point way out of date.

Even though there is an argument that nobody will lose their employment if the closure goes ahead, there is obviously a knock on effect to the economy of clonmel when you consider that with the barracks gone, local suppliers and trades people will no longer have any contracts with the Dept.

Also the yearly spend from personnel that are either stationed in the barracks or other personnel visiting on training courses etc. will be felt in the towns economy, so therefore there probably will be a good chance of more job losses occurring in the town as a direct result of the barracks closing.

The figure that PDFORRA estimated, was a loss to the local economy of around nine million Euros! So in essence our government are transferring those potential earnings to some other constituency to the detriment of ours. Isn't it more important than ever that those earnings be retained in the local economy given the fact that we've lost so many jobs recently?

There's other issues with a closure of property this size, the barracks has over seven acres of land, since it wont/cant be sold off, whats going to happen to it? the former barracks in Kildare (McGee Bks) is an absolute disgrace!! no security, druggies and cider parties every night, it's a no go area that the scum have claimed for themselves causing an environmental/H&S disaster.
Same goes for the former barracks in Longford (Connolly Bks). Do we really need a place the size of Kickham Barracks to be left to rot and fester???

The military personnel that have served in Clonmel down through the years have shown loyalty; to whatever government was in power, to Clonmel and the local area and indeed to the State. I think it's time that loyalty was reflected by our government, and the people of South Tipperary.

As regards the military, i realise that a lot of people have no clue about the military and consider it a waste of resources, all I can say to this, is that the military, who as i've already stated remain loyal to the Constitution and thereby the government and the people of Ireland, provide the authority to the legitimate democratically elected government of the State to govern without fear of intimidation or prejudice. The Defence Forces are also a symbol of our sovereignty and our strength, such as it is.

The old saying comes to mind; better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
Finally, military service; to those that know, no explanation is necessary, to those that don't know, no explanation is possible!

apologies for the long post.