Circumcision illegal in Ireland?

easychair

DeVore wrote: »

If they circumvent the law, thats one thing (and a serious crime too).

It doesnt mean we shouldnt have the law there.


Many people circumvent the tax laws, the speeding laws etc etc... should we not bother having them too?


DeV.

Many Irish women "circumvent" the law on abortion. Do you really think they should be prosecuted by the Irish state for so doing? And prevented from accessing abortions abroad and forced, by the state, to have babies they don't want?

Many Irish people in the past "circumvented" the law on birth control. Hysterectomys were known as the "irish contraceptive", and some people (shock horror) even "circumvented" the law by bringing condoms into Ireland.

The contraceptive pill was prescribed for "heavy periods" in times when contraception was prohibited by Irish law. It was illegal to prescribe the contraceptive pill as a contraceptive, but quite legal to prescribe it for medical conditions. It is curious how, since contraception was made legal, "heavy periods" needing a prescription seem to have been completely cured in Ireland and there have been hardly any cases of the condition in recent years. A happy coincidence, no doubt.

Many Irish people in the past "circumvented" the law outlawing homosexuality.

Laws are not always workable, or enforceable, or sensible.

I don't equate circumcision with tax fraud, but it's closer to speeding which most people do in their cars from time to time, and it's hardly a major "crime".

No one has yet said how any law would be framed, how then it might be enforced, what the penalties would be, which parent would be prosecuted, and how it will be proved, after the event, that the circumcision was medically unnecessary.

Imagine the court cases, likely to be reported around the world and showing Ireland to be an intolerant and nasty society, the only country in the world prosecuting jews and muslims for a practice carried out for thousands of years, and carried out legally in every country in the world apart from Ireland. What the foreign papers will say is that even the Nazi's didn't prosecute jews for circumcising their infants, and can you imagine the uproar around the world if we were, in Ireland, to prosecute jews and muslims on a regular basis, or even send them to prison, for this new "crime".

Imagine how those mulsims, who didn't take kindly to a few harmless cartoons, might react, when their brother muslims are denied their religious freedoms by the irish state.

While we are in agreement that routine circumcision is not something we personally advocate, it seems obvious that any law proscribing the practice will be fraught with difficulties and is likely to be impossible to operate (sic), or police. Will we really have the police visitng houses of muslims or jews to check if their boys have been circumcised?

And even if we could overcome all those problems, which seems doubtful, it would be open to any jew or muslim to take a case to the European Court of Human rights claiming their religious freedoms were being denied by the Irish state.

Anyone who thinks such a law would be workable, or desirable, or would have the intended effect, simply hasn't thought it through.

DeVore

Yes, I wish they had prosecuted them for those breaches of the law.

We would have changed the law a lot faster then because those laws were stupid and there would have been outrage.

This law (stopping child choppy-bits-off) is not stupid, so unless you are suggesting we dont enforce laws AT ALL... I dont see your point.


A law that is not enforced is a joke at best. Make better laws.

DeV.

DeVore

You talk like we dont already HAVE a law against lopping bits of your child off. We do. It should be enforced.


Everyone has the right to freedom of religious expression... but not if it entails murder or assault or ..or..or.. there is a hierarchy of rights you know! You're freedom of expression doesnt mean you can do what you like to another human (child or no!)

DeV.

easychair

DeVore wrote: »

You talk like we dont already HAVE a law against lopping bits of your child off. We do. It should be enforced.


Everyone has the right to freedom of religious expression... but not if it entails murder or assault or ..or..or.. there is a hierarchy of rights you know! You're freedom of expression doesnt mean you can do what you like to another human (child or no!)

DeV.

And yet you don't say how we overcome any of the problems highlighted in framing or enforcing such a law.

Personally, from what I have discussed with friends, my view is that the European Court of Human Rights would be likely to uphold the rights of a jewish or muslim family who claimed that they were being denied their religious freedoms by being legally dwnied the right to cut off a piece of their childs foreskins, which is, apparantly, what god wants.

Secondly, my view is that it is alikely to be claimed that a medical reason for circumcision will be the mental anguish caused to the child by being uncircumcised when god calls for him to be circumcised.

I can't agree witjh you, as you appear to suggest, that we should prosecute women for having abortions abroad, so perhaps we really do have very different views on both liberty ( I believe in the woman having the decision, unpaletable though it may be).

easychair

DeVore wrote: »

This law (stopping child choppy-bits-off) is not stupid, so unless you are suggesting we dont enforce laws AT ALL... I dont see your point.


A law that is not enforced is a joke at best. Make better laws.

DeV.

I wasn't making a single point, and have outlined many problems with trying to frame the law, and many problems if you succeed in framing a law in the application of the law.

As yet, you haven't suggested how the law might be framed, or how the difficulties outlined might be overcome.

muppeteer

easychair wrote: »

Many Irish women "circumvent" the law on abortion. Do you really think they should be prosecuted by the Irish state for so doing? And prevented from accessing abortions abroad and forced, by the state, to have babies they don't want?

Irish women circumvent no law by traveling to another state to procure an abortion. I am unaware of a significant number of illegal abortions being performed in the state.

Many Irish people in the past "circumvented" the law on birth control. Hysterectomys were known as the "irish contraceptive", and some people (shock horror) even "circumvented" the law by bringing condoms into Ireland.

They ignored this law, as they saw this as an unjust law, and as adults decided to risk conviction under Irish law. They did this of their own free will.

The contraceptive pill was prescribed for "heavy periods" in times when contraception was prohibited by Irish law. It was illegal to prescribe the contraceptive pill as a contraceptive, but quite legal to prescribe it for medical conditions. It is curious how, since contraception was made legal, "heavy periods" needing a prescription seem to have been completely cured in Ireland and there have been hardly any cases of the condition in recent years. A happy coincidence, no doubt.

Indeed, doctors either believed what their patients told them and prescribed the pill either correctly or naively. Or sympathetic doctors prescribed the pill in violation of the law. In both cases consenting adults are deciding to break the law in relation to their own bodies and are aware of the consequences.
The pill is still prescribed for heavy periods.

Many Irish people in the past "circumvented" the law outlawing homosexuality.

Laws are not always workable, or enforceable, or sensible.

I don't equate circumcision with tax fraud, but it's closer to speeding which most people do in their cars from time to time, and it's hardly a major "crime".

The laws on speeding and drunk driving are not always enforceable and we still see hundreds of people killed each year. We try our best to enforce these laws because speeders or drunk drivers are a danger to other people as well as to themselves. This is similar to parents circumcising children as they are harming another person.

No one has yet said how any law would be framed, how then it might be enforced, what the penalties would be, which parent would be prosecuted, and how it will be proved, after the event, that the circumcision was medically unnecessary.

This would take months of consultations with all interested parties. But as a start it could be modeled on physical abuse legislation with similar penalties. Proving that a procedure was medically unnecessary would be the same as it is now if a doctor is suspected of preforming unnecessary surgery.

Imagine the court cases, likely to be reported around the world and showing Ireland to be an intolerant and nasty society, the only country in the world prosecuting jews and muslims for a practice carried out for thousands of years, and carried out legally in every country in the world apart from Ireland. What the foreign papers will say is that even the Nazi's didn't prosecute jews for circumcising their infants, and can you imagine the uproar around the world if we were, in Ireland, to prosecute jews and muslims on a regular basis, or even send them to prison, for this new "crime".

This is hysterical nonsense. Ireland would be placing the rights of the child ahead of that of a guardian intent of harming said child. Something we could be proud of as a humanitarian society.

Imagine how those mulsims, who didn't take kindly to a few harmless cartoons, might react, when their brother muslims are denied their religious freedoms by the irish state.

This would be nothing more than capitulation to tyranny, sickening that you would suggest this.

While we are in agreement that routine circumcision is not something we personally advocate, it seems obvious that any law proscribing the practice will be fraught with difficulties and is likely to be impossible to operate (sic), or police. Will we really have the police visitng houses of muslims or jews to check if their boys have been circumcised?

I would suggest that policing would be similar to reporting parental abuse as it stands now. If a doctor/social worker becomes aware of abuse or the intent to abuse they should report it.

And even if we could overcome all those problems, which seems doubtful, it would be open to any jew or muslim to take a case to the European Court of Human rights claiming their religious freedoms were being denied by the Irish state.

Their religious freedom is not being curtailed in the slightest. Their perceived right to abuse their children is being curtailed as a child as no capacity to consent.

Anyone who thinks such a law would be workable, or desirable, or would have the intended effect, simply hasn't thought it through.

And anyone who would simply refuse to act when children are being hurt for fear of it being difficult or the fear of the violent reaction of bigots I would accuse of living with an ethical deficit.

easychair

muppeteer wrote: »

Their religious freedom is not being curtailed in the slightest. Their perceived right to abuse their children is being curtailed as a child as no capacity to consent.

I agree. I think it's ridiculous to claim that the only way they can worship god is to cut a piece of skin off their penises. But thats what they claim, and I am told it appears that their religious belief would appear to be good grounds for a case to the European Court of Human Rights to challenge any legislation.

yawha

Where has anyone said that they want to prosecute people who've had their children circumcised in other countries?

And where has anyone said that we would want this law to be extremely harshly enforced?

You're arguing against ridiculous hyperbolic situations.

The law should be that no doctor can perform a circumcision on an infant without medical necessity. Circumcisions be audited in the same manner any medical procedure is.

No unqualified person should be allowed to perform any type of surgery or body modification on an infant (Ear piercings and tattoos included. Although these are much less serious, they are still unnecessary and difficult to reverse body modifications).

What happens outside our jurisdiction is not our concern and I don't think it needs a huge enforcement effort.

yawha

easychair wrote: »

I agree. I think it's ridiculous to claim that the only way they can worship god is to cut a piece of skin off their penises. But thats what they claim, and I am told it appears that their religious belief would appear to be good grounds for a case to the European Court of Human Rights to challenge any legislation.

And what would happen if a man went to the ECoHR and claimed that his human rights had been violated as a result of his circumcision?

Sorry, but right to bodily integrity >>>>>>>>>> right to religious freedom.

Mark Hamill

easychair wrote: »

And yet you don't say how we overcome any of the problems highlighted in framing or enforcing such a law.

As has been pointed out ad nauseam to you, the "problems" you come up with equally apply to a lot of other things we already legislate against. FGM is religiously justified, just like male circumcision. Those that want it can call religious discrimination and say their god requires it and that its bad for their kid not to have it. And yet nobody cares about this, we still legislate against it and tell people they are sick for wanting to do this to their baby girls.

muppeteer

yawha wrote: »

Where has anyone said that they want to prosecute people who've had their children circumcised in other countries?

What happens outside our jurisdiction is not our concern and I don't think it needs a huge enforcement effort.

I'm unsure if there are laws which prevent a parent or guardian from removing a child from this state with the intention of abuse/illegal actions. If they are not already in place I hope they will be soon.
For example the Forced Marriage Act in the UK protects people from forced marriage and can be used to prevent someone being taken outside of the country for a forced marriage.

Annasopra

easychair wrote: »

I agree. I think it's ridiculous to claim that the only way they can worship god is to cut a piece of skin off their penises. But thats what they claim, and I am told it appears that their religious belief would appear to be good grounds for a case to the European Court of Human Rights to challenge any legislation.

and the state could argue that they are protecting the human rights of the child. I honestly don't see what the problem with a law on banning circumcision on young males or females is. The argument that people could circumvent it is not in any way a legitimate argument against a law, the argument about human rights possibly but there is another side to that where the state is vindicating the human right of the child not to have such invasive and unnecessary surgery.

robindch

easychair wrote: »

I think it's ridiculous to claim that the only way they can worship god is to cut a piece of skin off their penises.

I'm sure it's come up before, but are you a libertarian?

The Mad Hatter

robindch wrote: »

I'm sure it's come up before, but are you a libertarian?

He is. I thought I'd answer for him since he's now got the word "banned" under his username. Wonder what happened there...

DeVore

Seems a moderator did a check and found he is a habitual troll/multiaccount. Nowt to do with me, I only just looked up the account to see if it was really banned.

DeV.

Penn

DeVore wrote: »

Seems a moderator did a check and found he is a habitual troll/multiaccount. Nowt to do with me, I only just looked up the account to see if it was really banned.

DeV.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76559639&postcount=4

Dades

Penn wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76559639&postcount=4

I read that Feedback thread and assumed he was joking!

"Video recording this crime spree was the best thing we ever did!"

MagicMarker

Is this thread safe to close now? Or shall I carry on easychair's argument in his absence?

''Now I don't particularly agree with circumcising infants but I don't see how we could possibly prevent others from doing it, I mean seriously like, just how could it be done? I can't see how it could be done in any effective manner, we can't just make it illegal, how would that possibly be effective? It wouldn't be, I just can't see any effective way of how it can be done effectively in an effective way.''

Sierra 117

It's funny how he constantly asked us to explain how the law would be enforced and yet gave no real reasons as to why it wouldn't work. Instead he spouted nonsense.

"People would get around the law by going to other countries so we shouldn't have the law at all". Ridiculous.

Dades

Ah now folks, just because there was disagreement doesn't mean you have to laugh at his arguments now he's banned (for nothing to do with here).

Argue with someone who can argue back.

MagicMarker

In fairness, I laughed at his arguments before he was banned too, but fair enough.

Sn@kebite

Im not against circ being performed, however a parent/guardian deciding for another human being's body to be altered when they are not old enough to consent is another matter.

If I cut off your little toe I go to jail, if i have a baby boy's little toe cut off i go to jail, but if i get his foreskin cut off I don't. Go figure!

kylith

I think this is the best place for this link. I know it's from 2004, but I'd never heard of the case before.

The wrenching story of David (baptised as Brian) Reimer began with a freak snowstorm in 1966. His parents, working-class people from the plains of Manitoba, drove him to the local hospital for a routine circumcision. He was eight months old. But the regular surgeon had not made it in and an assistant took over. She botched the job. A cauterising implement burned David's penis - and it fell off. A witness later said that when the mistake was made there was a sizzling sound, like a steak being seared.

After the botched circumcision his testes were removed and he was raised as a girl. He eventually took his own life.

SuzyDaFloozy

my son has to have it done for medical reasons, can anyone tell me where to get it done? I heard there is a GP in Maynooth that does it but cant find any info on it

kylith

SuzyDaFloozy wrote: »

my son has to have it done for medical reasons, can anyone tell me where to get it done? I heard there is a GP in Maynooth that does it but cant find any info on it

I recommend that you ask your GP to refer you to someone. I don't recommend taking any advice about procedures or where to get them done from people on the internet.

Dades

Indeed! This is not the place for advice on this sort of thing.

SuzyDaFloozy

I disagree, I want to do as much research on it as possible and if anyone has any experience I would be interested in hearing it if thats ok with you's, it is a forum after all.

kylith

It is, but this forum is for Atheist discussion. If you want to know about general experiences with circumcision your best bet would probably be the Gentlemen's Club.

Dades

SuzyDaFloozy wrote: »

I disagree, I want to do as much research on it as possible and if anyone has any experience I would be interested in hearing it if thats ok with you's, it is a forum after all.

I think you're missing the point of this thread and forum.

Just because we're discussing circumcision doesn't mean the posters here have any more experience than, say, those in Bargain Alerts. The discussion here is about the ethics of the procedure when not required medically, rather than a thread of people talking about their experiences with it.

Still, if someone wants to PM you, they can of course.

Galvasean

SuzyDaFloozy wrote: »

I disagree, I want to do as much research on it as possible and if anyone has any experience I would be interested in hearing it if thats ok with you's, it is a forum after all.

Lot's of experiences in this thread. Might be more suited to what you're looking for:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054899493