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Circumcision illegal in Ireland?

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    #302
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    Sierra 117 wrote: »


    Simple. The right of the child to decide what happens to their body is far more important than the right of the parent to have the child circumcised.

    What about the right of the child to obey his religion? Rights are tricky things, and we can't decide, for others, which rights they should adhere to, and which ones they should ignore.

    But lets go along with what you say, and perhaps you could tell us how you plan to ban circumcision in a way which will be workable.


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    #303
    Sierra 117
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭Sierra 117


    kylith's post above pretty much sums up how I would go about it.


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    #304
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    easychair wrote: »
    What about the right of the child to obey his religion? Rights are tricky things, and we can't decide, for others, which rights they should adhere to, and which ones they should ignore. .
    Of course you can, society does it all the time (particularly when it comes to child protection).
    easychair wrote: »
    But lets go along with what you say, and perhaps you could tell us how you plan to ban circumcision in a way which will be workable.
    Same way you ban anything.


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    #305
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    easychair wrote: »
    What about the right of the child to obey his religion? Rights are tricky things, and we can't decide, for others, which rights they should adhere to, and which ones they should ignore.

    So we shouldn't ban FGM so?
    easychair wrote: »
    But lets go along with what you say, and perhaps you could tell us how you plan to ban circumcision in a way which will be workable.

    Why do you keep repeating this nonsensical question?


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    #306
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    easychair wrote: »
    What about the right of the child to obey his religion? Rights are tricky things, and we can't decide, for others, which rights they should adhere to, and which ones they should ignore.
    No one wants to stop people from following their religion. No one even wants to stop people from getting circumcised as part of their religion. What people want is for the children to be allowed to make the decision to be circumcised themselves when they're old enough.


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    #307
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    kylith wrote: »
    No one wants to stop people from following their religion. No one even wants to stop people from getting circumcised as part of their religion. What people want is for the children to be allowed to make the decision to be circumcised themselves when they're old enough.

    If "people" want that, it's curious how "people" still continue the practice.

    What you mean, in fact, is that some "people" want to stop other "people" .

    Rights are not simply what we want, especially when it conflicts with what other "people " want.

    I am able to dislike the practice, while allowing other "people" to make that decision for themselves, and for their families.

    It's noticeable that the vast, vast majority of the men in the world who have been circumcised as children do not seem to object when they reach adulthood.


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    #308
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    easychair wrote: »
    It's noticeable that the vast, vast majority of the men in the world who have been circumcised as children do not seem to object when they reach adulthood.
    Hardly unusual if you consider that men who've had it done and who later choose to object, will, effectively, be telling the world that they believe their penis is misshapen. Speaking as a (uncircumcised) guy myself, I'm not sure this is a rumour I'd be happy to spread about myself.

    Also interesting to note that adult males almost never choose to get circumcised -- suggesting that men who have a choice don't want it done.


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    #309
    soterpisc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 298 ✭✭soterpisc


    dlofnep wrote: »
    You know it's not illegal. Don't ask stupid questions.


    Many ignorant parents in Ireland over look their kids as babies and leave young men with problems that could easily be sorted out a kids with a small procedure similar to Circumcision. So no, Circumcision is not illegal in Ireland it sometimes is done for medical reason, you would be surprised who many grown men get circumcised for non religious reasons.


    As for the Religious reasons.. Well I have yet to meet a Muslim/Jew who really cared, They don't remember being Circumcised and it does not seem to affect their live one bit. (Certainly not when it comes to having kids).. No my cup of tea. But atleast for men the procedure if done as a baby well they know no different.

    One thing do strongly disagree with in religious Circumcision is that it can be done by someone who is not a trained doctor. Not sure in Ireland how its done, but it should only ever be done by a Doctor.


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    #310
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    robindch wrote: »
    Hardly unusual if you consider that men who've had it done and who later choose to object, will, effectively, be telling the world that they believe their penis is misshapen. Speaking as a (uncircumcised) guy myself, I'm not sure this is a rumour I'd be happy to spread about myself.

    Also interesting to note that adult males almost never choose to get circumcised -- suggesting that men who have a choice don't want it done.

    If adult males choose not to be circumcised, then I am sure we can all support their decision, just as we support those who do choose to be circumcised.

    I am more impressed by the fact that many of those who were circumcised as children seem less concerned about it than those who were not circumcised. I have never met a man who was circumcised who considered his penis is misshapen, and your comments that a circumcised penis is misshapen are you own views, and seem not to be shared by those who have been circumcised.

    It's fine to disagree with the practice, but another thing to effect a law which prevents it. Any such law would be unworkable, so we'll just have to live with the situation which currently exists.


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    #311
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    How would any such law be unworkable?


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    #312
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    easychair wrote: »
    just as we support those who do choose to be circumcised.
    Does a baby boy sign the consent form with his thumbprint, or do they wait until he can sign his name at age 3 or 4?


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    #313
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    How would any such law be unworkable?
    easychair wrote: »

    It's entirely possible to realise that there may be benefits to circumcision and still oppose non medically necessary circumcisions of those under the age of majority. That is my position, but I also respect the rights of parents to make that decision.

    For me, I know it is impossible to make a law banning infant or childhood circumcision, as it will always be medically necessary in some cases.

    Just as in Ireland contraception was banned in the past, but the contraceptive pill could and was proscribed for other conditions (nudge nudge wink wink) and the hysterectomy, (a procedure much more risky than a circumcision) was known as the Irish contraceptive, I know that some parents will still choose to circumcise their infants and will find ways around any law which seeks to ban infant or childhood circumcisions.

    *


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    #314
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    So basically what you're saying is that it will always be possible to find a paediatric surgeon who will happily carry out the procedure even though it's not necessary?

    While I don't doubt that in some cases this will indeed happen, it would not be widespread IMO. The surgeon would be risking his entire career for nothing, basically, and he would also require the support of a few other medical staff who could call shenanigans on his scam. You'd find a handful of surgeons willing to bend the rules to make it happen, but eyebrows would be raised when someone notices that Dr Gupta circumcised 80 children last year when the national average is closer to 2 or 3 circumcisions per surgeon per year.

    At the very least it would also mean that we have a method of punishing people who mutilate their children, and those who assist them.


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    #315
    UnkieKev
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭UnkieKev


    I was circumcised as a child due to health reasons. As a 21 year old man I can tell you now it's not barbaric in the least, it makes no difference to you later in life.

    It is also extremely more hygienic to be circumcised.


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    #316
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    easychair wrote: »
    *
    Sigh. I don't know if you're purposely just ignoring what everyone is saying or not.

    No one is saying we should ban it completely, only in cases where it is not medically necessary.

    So how is that unworkable?


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    #317
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    UnkieKev wrote: »
    I was circumcised as a child due to health reasons. As a 21 year old man I can tell you now it's not barbaric in the least, it makes no difference to you later in life.

    Meaningless, and you were circumcised for medical reasons, so a moot point.
    UnkieKev wrote: »
    It is also extremely more hygienic to be circumcised.

    Says who?


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    #318
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    robindch wrote: »
    Does a baby boy sign the consent form with his thumbprint, or do they wait until he can sign his name at age 3 or 4?

    The problem with your rhetorical question is that they are not asked either way. At that point, we have no idea what their views are, and as a society we leave that up to their parents. When many reach the age of consent, at which time they can express an opinion legally, many, for example Jews and muslims, are thankful that their parents took that decision for them.

    I'd prefer to live in a society where we leave as many decisions about children to their parents as we can. Not all parents get it right, but most do their best and do what they think is in their child's best interests.

    As I have said before, I am opposed to the practice of infant male circumcision myself, but also respect that others may take a different view.


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    #319
    UnkieKev
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭UnkieKev


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    UnkieKev wrote: »
    I was circumcised as a child due to health reasons. As a 21 year old man I can tell you now it's not barbaric in the least, it makes no difference to you later in life.

    Meaningless, and you were circumcised for medical reasons, so a moot point.
    UnkieKev wrote: »
    It is also extremely more hygienic to be circumcised.

    Says who?

    Hmmm me maybe?


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    #320
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    UnkieKev wrote: »
    It is also extremely more hygienic to be circumcised.

    That's just a lie which is continually being peddled to justify circumcision. It's completely unnecessary, and I'm sure if someone is worried about hygiene they can bother to wash their member like a normal person.
    Talk about cutting off your nose in spite of your face :P


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    #321
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    UnkieKev wrote: »
    Hmmm me maybe?

    And as an uncircumcised man, what are you basing it on?


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    #322
    UnkieKev
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭UnkieKev


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    UnkieKev wrote: »
    Hmmm me maybe?

    And as an uncircumcised man, what are you basing it on?
    The fact that I only had a circumcision when I was 13


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    #323
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    UnkieKev wrote: »
    Hmmm me maybe?

    Thanks for your authoritative medical prognosis on that, Dr UnkieKev...


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    #324
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    UnkieKev wrote: »
    The fact that I only had a circumcision when I was 13
    So what you're saying is you didn't wash yourself properly as a child?


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    #325
    UnkieKev
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭UnkieKev


    Siuin wrote: »
    Thanks for your authoritative medical prognosis on that, Dr UnkieKev...

    Wow I see this thread is a bunch of keyboard warriors so.
    Well i'll leave you to throw your heavy implements at each other!


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    #326
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    UnkieKev wrote: »
    Wow I see this thread is a bunch of keyboard warriors so.
    Well i'll leave you to throw your heavy implements at each other!

    If you can't produce valid reasons for your opinions, then don't expect to hang around for long.


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    #327
    UnkieKev
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭UnkieKev


    Siuin wrote: »
    If you can't produce valid reasons for your opinions, then don't expect to hang around for long.

    Valid reasoning? Well I had an uncircumcised penis for 13 years, and have had a circumcised penis for the last 8. You having never been circumcised have no idea the difference in either and are relying on google to back yourself up am I correct?


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    #328
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    UnkieKev wrote: »
    Valid reasoning? Well I had an uncircumcised penis for 13 years, and have had a circumcised penis for the last 8. You having never been circumcised have no idea the difference in either and are relying on google to back yourself up am I correct?

    You don't need to be circumcised to know that there is absolutely no valid medical reason to support circumcision. You don't need a dick (circumcised or otherwise) to have a brain.


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    #329
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    UnkieKev wrote: »
    Valid reasoning? Well I had an uncircumcised penis for 13 years, and have had a circumcised penis for the last 8. You having never been circumcised have no idea the difference in either and are relying on google to back yourself up am I correct?
    Or maybe people are basing their opinion on the fact that they were never circumcised, don't need to be circumcised and by some miracle hygiene has never been an issue in their whole entire lives? Crazy as it sounds.

    It doesn't make a difference if half the planet is circumcised or not and if they are the happiest people alive, the only thing that matters is that it's done needlessly to someone who has no choice in the matter at all.

    Would you circumcise your newborn if it wasn't medically necessary? If not why not? And if so why so?


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    #330
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    easychair wrote: »
    many, for example Jews and muslims, are thankful that their parents took that decision for them.
    Given that significant subsections of these religions are happy to make life very miserable for non-conformists, I'd imagine that most guys would be thrilled to have had the end of their knob hacked off.
    easychair wrote: »
    their child's best interests.
    Does this look like an expression of a child's "best interests" to you:

    185071.jpg


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    #331
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    easychair wrote: »
    robindch wrote: »
    Does a baby boy sign the consent form with his thumbprint, or do they wait until he can sign his name at age 3 or 4?

    The problem with your rhetorical question is that they are not asked either way. At that point, we have no idea what their views are, and as a society we leave that up to their parents.

    The whole point of his question is that they are not asked either way. The question being asked of you is why do we leave that up to their parents? And should we leave it up to their parents if their parents are going to have unnecessary medical operations performed on them? Why can't it wait until the patient of the circumcision can make the decision himself?
    When many reach the age of consent, at which time they can express an opinion legally, many, for example Jews and muslims, are thankful that their parents took that decision for them.

    That's nice, but why couldn't it have waited until they were old enough to take that decision for themselves?


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