Digital Switchover - UTV Region (DigitalUK)

watty

On edge of Castlebar the Truskmore or Cairnhill are FAR better.
Or even Maghera

Those are ALL now far better on DTT than on Analogue.


See http://maps.techtir.com/dtt-mayo.htm and click on map edges.

mrdtv2010

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I didn't write off Kilkeel coverage for precisely the above reason. It remains a disappointment however. I live closer to Kilkeel than the tens of thousands who have coverage from Kilkeel further south and even then analogue is somewhat fuzzy with unreliable Ceefax/Teletext and it suffered during every spell of good weather with the total loss of reception from Kilkeel. The small mercy being that Caldbeck seemed to come in on a few of these occasions.

My point is that all those people from Drogheda to Rush and also parts of Howth and Dalkey/Killiney, simply put up with fuzzy NI channels else have moved to Sky and in the latter cases UPC. Considering reception in many differnet houses I've seen is generally not good enough for teletext/Ceefax on some of the channels, I would be very concerned that a -4dB drop will put all those people into the zone of one or two multiplexes being received or leave regular problems with dropouts and pixelation.

All this is not a big deal really in the context of Freesat but it would have been nice to have superior DTT coverage:)

And Divis will indeed romp in with 100kW even if it's on analogue assuming that Divis remains essentially omnidirectional. I'm still amazed that Brougher Mountain's COM multiplexes would be co-channel with a neighbouring PSB multiplex service area's allocation.

The Kilkeel multiplexes are a straightforward transposition of the existing analogue frequencies. To replicate the coverage it should have been at 100W whereas they are using 200W which is quite large for a relay. The reason that station provides the coverage in ROI is because of its HAAT and sea-path run along the East-Coast. Provided there are no CCI issues it will be more reliable in DTT as it is cross-polar with Mount Leinster and MyP. It was always very unlikely it would have operated at 40, 43, 46 etc because of the VP IoM SFN.

Divis PSB muxes will be omnidirectional as they will inherit the analogue allotments and this is required to cover South and East Down insofar as possible. The COM muxes are cochannel with Caldbeck which is causing some problems in East Down and Dumfries and Galloway. Incidentally after Divis DSO if Kippure/Three Rock stay as Group C/D DTT stations and their powers are increased then Three Rock/Kippure coverage should be much improved in South and East Down as Three Rock analogue is currently stymied by Divis low power DTT.

A very good test for high power DTT is a) can you receive analogue teletext and b) does page 284 on the main UK analogue channels render correctly. See the digitaluk web site for details. If it does you are in business.

Divis DSO shares 21, 24, 27 with Brougher and Caldbeck Scottish muxes (but these are 3dB down on Caldbeck English muxes.) I suspect Brougher COM muxes will only be received in areas where you cannot get Divis DTT: they are relying on aerial directionality and disparity in ERPs. Like Mount Leinster/Preseli we shall see....

lawhec

Tried a rough analogue max. ERP to DTT ERP converter for each transmitter and relay for the PSB multiplexes, it appears that most relays should see an effective coverage improvement (higher than -7db) for digital compared to analogue with a few going into the +db range. I've tried to round it to the nearest single db, figures might be plus or minus 1...

(-8db to -6db) High power/DTT conversion coverage should roughly match that of current analogue area (-7db).
(-5db or better) High power/DTT conversion coverage should give an improvement over current analogue coverage area assuming radiation pattern of current analogue broadcasts remain the same for digital.
(-9db or less) High power/DTT conversion coverage may be less than current analogue coverage.

BROUGHER MOUNTAIN: -7db
Belcoo: -1db
Derrygonnelly: -3db
Ederney: -7db
Lisbellaw: -6db

DIVIS: -7db
Armagh: -9db
Banbridge: -5db
Bangor: -3db
Bellair: -7db
Benagh: +6db
Black Mountain: -7db
Camlough: -1db
Carnmoney Hill: -1db
Conlig: -7db
Cushendall: -6db
Cushendun: -2db
Draperstown: -9db
Dromore: -3db
Glenariff: -2db
Glynn: +1db
Kilkeel: -4db
Killowen Mountain: -15db
Larne: -1db
Leitrim: +5db
Moneymore: -1db
Newcastle: -1db
Newry Nth: -7db
Newry Sth: -7db
Newtownards: -7db
Rostrevor Forest: -4db
Whitehead: -7db

LIMAVADY: -7db
Ballintoy: +3db
Ballycastle: -7db
Buckna: +2db
Bushmills: -5db
Castlederg: -7db
Claudy: -1db
Glenelly Valley: -7db
Gortnageeragh: +2db
Gortnalee: 0db
L/Derry: -3db
Muldonagh: +3db
Plumbridge: +4db
Strabane: -7db

mrdtv2010

lawhec:

Excellent calculations there.

The next interesting move at Divis will be the helicopter lift of the S1 antenna onto the new mast. This should be fairly soon given the good weather ( at Dover DSOing next spring they only did the helicopter lift in April this year). The helicopter lift is fairly spectacular and will be on the local news as well as the mb21 web site where they seem to specialise in the videos. Following the lift, installation of the new system, will come the dead of night high power tests: analogue is turned off for the night and they use the reclaimed frequencies for DTT tests. You don't get pictures but those with good receivers or meters will see the levels. I think its important to remember that unlike analogue high power DTT is perfect out to the edge of the service area most of the time, eg Preseli and Arfon.

lucernarian

@STB I had read of those allocations on the trade section of the digital UK reception predictor a year or so ago. They had since changed to the current allocation when I looked a few weeks ago. In the RRC-06 negotiations Kilkeel was allocated 8 UHF channels for DVB-T and 40-43-46-49 were the extra 4 on top of the existing allocation. I posted about this discrepancy on the digital UK website at the time if you do a search. Also, the IoM may reach coastal parts of Carlingford but the coastal parts of Louth in general are a very different proposition.

Speaking of which, Carlingford is in the ironic position of losing terrestrial television coverage from RTÉ next year while simultaneously then being able to receive very good Freeview.

@mrdtv2010, I'm not sure you noted the point I tried to make. In my experience the swath of viewers along the northeast coast who currently receive Kilkeel do so poorly and usually with no or very patchy teletext. I don't have dBuV/m measurements at hand but it certainly doesn't inspire confidence after DSO. Kilkeel is high enough but it's no Arfon and is 10dB weaker than Arfon to boot when DSO comes around.

I don't expect CCI issues with Kilkeel as I never have seen that happening in all the years of watching Kilkeel analogue, even with the more minor bouts of tropo ducting. Tropo ducting or other atmospheric inversion effects simply nulled the signal from Kilkeel from what I've seen.

The 7dB comparison between analogue coverage and DTT is only useful if you assume that people do not have "reception" if it falls below CCIR grade 4 or 3 or whatever threshold they use for this comparison. I've seen many a person who had Kilkeel reception of about grade 3 or even 2. But again, this is what makes Freesat brilliant for Irish viewers.


Does anyone find it odd that Camlough has been given an ERP that appears higher than allowed for in RRC-06?

Vince Cable

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

The 7dB comparison between analogue coverage and DTT is only useful if you assume that people do not have "reception" if it falls below CCIR grade 4 or 3 or whatever threshold they use for this comparison. I've seen many a person who had Kilkeel reception of about grade 3 or even 2.

I think the 'just served' level for analogue (in the UK anyway) equates to grade 2.5.

The teletext 284 test referred to above fails at around grade 1.5

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP160.pdf

Souriau

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Does anyone find it odd that Camlough has been given an ERP that appears higher than allowed for in RRC-06?

Also is being listed as Freeview Lite, from my understanding, such power for Freeview lite

Souriau

Friday 29th March 2013
Divis
BBC TWO C27 closes. BBCA starts on C27.
Saturday 30th March 2013
Divis
BBC One C31 closes.
ITV-1 C24 closes.
Channel 4 C21 closes.
Mux 1 C29 closes.
Mux 2 C33 closes.
Mux A C23 closes.
Mux B C26 closes.
Mux C C48 closes.
Mux D C34 closes.
Freeview power increases from 2,133W (average) to 75,000W, 35 times stronger.
SDN starts on C23.
ArqA starts on C26.
ArqB starts on C29.
NEW7 starts on C30.
NEW8 starts on C56.
D3+4 starts on C21.
BBCB(HD) starts on C24.

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

Friday 29th March 2013
Divis
BBC TWO C27 closes. BBCA starts on C27.
Saturday 30th March 2013
Divis

The dates are unofficial and have been on ukfree.tv for a long time. Oct/Nov 2012 seems to be the best guess for NI DSO atm.

This is the nearest we got to official so far - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68800253#post68800253

lucernarian

Divis' PSB multiplexes will have an ERP of 100kW too.

Mr. Rabbit

Souriau wrote: »

Also is being listed as Freeview Lite, from my understanding, such power for Freeview lite

Interestingly, I was in Scarborough a couple of weeks ago and could see the Oliver's mount TV transmitter from my Hotel bedroom window.

Strangely, this is a relatively small/low powered relay station. The town has a population of around 50,000 and yet, the transmitter is full Freeview and not Freeview Lite ?

By the same logic, Derry should be full Freeview (pop. 90,000), along with Carnmoney Hill which covers much of Newtownabbey (pop. 62,000). Carnmoney Hill could do with an increase in power as well.

lucernarian

There was some talk of Arqiva offering full Freeview coverage for a few relays around the UK with the coming of DSO, if the COM operators were interested. Carnmoney Hill and Sheriff's Mountain beside Derry were mentioned I think.

I haven't heard more about it, a poster here called Sam the Aerialman seemed to know most about the proposals.

lawhec

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Interestingly, I was in Scarborough a couple of weeks ago and could see the Oliver's mount TV transmitter from my Hotel bedroom window.

Strangely, this is a relatively small/low powered relay station. The town has a population of around 50,000 and yet, the transmitter is full Freeview and not Freeview Lite ?

By the same logic, Derry should be full Freeview (pop. 90,000), along with Carnmoney Hill which covers much of Newtownabbey (pop. 62,000). Carnmoney Hill could do with an increase in power as well.

Oliver's Mount IIRC was one of the original 80 UK DTT transmitters pre-switchover which perhaps explains why it has a full Freeview service. I would say that the problem at the time with the L/Derry relay was a lack of available frequencies (Strabane and Moville nearby would have crowded out many of the frequencies of the same aerial group). Dunno about Carnmoney Hill though, I would think they would have less to think about frequency problems but co-ordination would likely need to be factored with transmitters across the water.

Incidently there are a number of "main" transmitters that would serve fewer households than the L/Derry relay, particularly in the more isolated parts of northern and western Scotland.

Mayo Exile

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Speaking of which, Carlingford is in the ironic position of losing terrestrial television coverage from RTÉ next year while simultaneously then being able to receive very good Freeview.

Interesting. So the entire village will/may have to go the Saorsat or Sky route to get RTE etc. Omeath may be in the same boat. Does any signal from CC get into Omeath or do they get current analogue transmissions from the Carlingford relay in Group B?

Peter Rhea

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Does anyone find it odd that Camlough has been given an ERP that appears higher than allowed for in RRC-06?

Souriau wrote: »

Also is being listed as Freeview Lite, from my understanding, such power for Freeview lite

It's to use the 2 channels currently allocated to Monaghan which were being received by Souriau in the Newry area.

Are you still getting Monaghan Saorview on UHF 55 & 59?

Having said all that, it's already co-channel with TG4 analogue from Monaghan & would have been with Monaghan's other UHF analogue allocations, had they been used.

watty

Hmm Searching coverage of Carlingford:

http://coverage.rtenl.ie/RTENLcoveragechecker.php

Search result:

We're sorry. Saorview coverage is a challenge in your area. Please consult a local aerial installer for further information. It is not possible to reach all locations by terrestrial means and RTÉNL are in the process of developing a free-to-air satellite solution 'Saorsat' which will provide coverage to any blackspots.

Mayo Exile

watty wrote: »

Hmm Searching coverage of Carlingford:

http://coverage.rtenl.ie/RTENLcoveragechecker.php

Carlingford has a population of about 1,200. Quite a number for one area that will have to make alternative arrangements to get RTE from the end of next year.

Omeath ok it seems despite being underneath the mast.

SITE INFORMATION

Site:CLERMONT CARN

Site On-Air:Yes

Channel:53

AERIAL INFORMATION Polarization:V

Direction to point (degrees): West (254)

lucernarian

My investigations and looking at OSI maps would suggest that Three Rock/Kippure would be receivable even with perhaps less than recommended reliability as the terrain is not as abrubt to the south of Carlingford, unlike towards Clermont Carn. The coverage map suggests Kippure coverage cuts out around Greenore but the terrain remains flat towards Carlingford and I can't expect signal strength to have deteriorated rapidly. A big group C/D for Kippure combined with a contract B for Kilkeel or A for Benagh may work post-DSO in most of the area.

Only thing is, I didn't see any extra TV3 aerials when looking around on google's streetview. Not a good sign.

There's an installer who posts here from the area. Perhaps he could enlighten us...

Edit: It appears that Kippure has a chance from Greenore to as far as the edge of Carlingford itself. The small town of Carlingford will be dependent on Saorsat afterwards it appears. Unfortunately the "Carlingford" relay stationed in Greenore is in Group B and the clever clogs in DCENR appear not to have negotiated any frequencies for that relay in RRC-06. Kilkeel meanwhile has 8 of the remaining group B frequencies allocated after DSO and Carlingford analogue currently take up another 3. The SFN from the IoM which has been received on the penninsula won't help matters either. Am I right in saying that Carlingford could currently only use Ch 47 for DTT with no spare Group B frequency for the second mux anyway? E52 could be free but not if the Carlingford relay is served by Clermont Carn. E48 is probably used by the IoM, I know I sometimes picked up ITV on that in analogue days.

There could be quite a few of the good Baron's constituents who will have to fork out a fair bit of money to continue watching Irish broadcasts while HM's broadcasting corporation is received with a coathanger;)

Finne1993

Yep, Carlingford is a total non runner when it comes to Saorview, they just won't get it, I live just outside it, luckily enough where I am I can get a perfect signal from both 3 Rock and Kippure with Kippure being the strongest. Most houses in the Cooley Peninsula (outside Carlingford and Omeath) currently get their RTE from 3 Rock and have group A aerials diplexed with group B's for Kilkeel so the group A's will have to be replaced with Group C/D aerials in order to receive Saorview from 3 Rock or Kippure.

There are pockets of areas around the peninsula that can get perfect Clermont Carn through gaps in the Cooley Mountains, most notable one is from just past the Bush school to approximately Gyles Quay and then there is a small area in Bellurgan where it can be got and then it goes out again until Ballymac.

In the village of Carlingford the Slieve Foy mountain completely blocks any view of Kippure/3 Rock/Clermont Carn, hence why the relay is there in Greenore for them, if memory serves me right it is'nt there that long, maybe 20 years, they had no RTE before that, Greenore can pick up 3 Rock no problem. Most houses in Carlingford are holiday houses nowadays so I can't see that many subscribing to Sky, Saorsat will be the way forward but it will be a pain for a lot of people, especially the elderly with multiple STB's for Saorsat and Freeview (when the signal comes this far!), I can already envisage the problems and complications round here at switchover time!

Parts of Omeath will need Saorsat as well, not all of it can pick up Clermont Carn, quite a few houses there are still getting their RTE from Greenore.

Mayo Exile

There's an installer in Dundalk Town I talk to now and again who told me a couple of years ago he put up an aerial for a person somewhere near Greenore to receive analogue RTE/TV3 reception from Cairn Hill in Longford. There would be probably nothing stopping Cairn Hill getting this far but it's still a hell of a distance though.

lucernarian

Almost anywhere Cairn Hill would work, Kippure would work better. Cairn Hill most definitely won't reach Carlingford. Its analogue relay is even co-channel with Cairn Hill DTT's second mux.

Finne1993

Cairn Hill works about as far as Gyles Quay, I installed a few in parts of the caravan park where trees were blocking the 3 Rock signal, since that I've tried getting the signal further into the peninsula as a test but it seems to be too low, it would'nt make much sense to go for it round here anyway when we've perfect UK reception on Kilkeel group B and its easier to diplex that with 3 Rock on group A rather than combining 2 Group B signals

watty

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Carlingford has a population of about 1,200. Quite a number for one area that will have to make alternative arrangements to get RTE from the end of next year.

I believe plans are afoot to have 20,000+ cheap Ka band LNBFs available.

RTE estimated 2% won't get Saorview, (could be more), that's about 16,000 households. While some people that have RTE analogue today will lose it, more people than that are gaining RTE and many more gaining TG4 and TV3.

The UK has Freesat for same reason.

Saorsat is now running test signals to see coverage in Ireland, N.I. and overspill in UK (overspill about x2 without the French beam running)

Start of tests
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056279953

Announcement
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968485

http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/
http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

Triax Multifeed for Freesat/Sky, Astra 19E, Hotbird 13E and Saorsat/Ka-Sat 9E
(90/95cm elliptical, may be larger than needed for most people in East)

At least with Saorsat it's technically possible to have a Freesat HD PVR for all the FTA UK also, though how well that would handle MHEG5, EPG and Series Link on Saorsat is unknown. Will need an 80cm (or 90cm) dish for the dual/multi-feed where 65cm would do for single feed. At least Triax does have strong enough arm for 4x LNBFs and "off the shelf" adaptor for up to 4 LNBs. It also means people can add 19E and 13E for price of LNB and broaden their minds.

People claim the Humax Terrestrial equivalent is working for them in South East for Saorview and "Freeview HD", but there is no RTE "Series link" transmission to test PVR compatibility yet.

The Cush

The following job vacancy for Team Assistant - Northern Ireland has appeared on the DigitalUK site.

Team Assistant, Northern Ireland


Salary in range of £18,000 to £24,000 per annum depending on skills and experience plus bonus

Digital UK, the not-for-profit organisation which is leading the switchover from analogue to digital television, is seeking a self-motivated Team Assistant to support and co-ordinate the work of the Digital UK Northern Ireland team. You will be required to provide administrative support to the team and may from time to time be required to represent Digital UK to local stakeholders.

You will have some understanding of what switchover means for the public. You will be a self-starter, well organised, good with detail and comfortable working in an office, at home or on the road.

This post will be offered as a fixed-term contract.

Closing date: 16 August 2011

To request a job description and for applications email matthew.heselden@digitaluk.co.uk

Applications should comprise a CV and brief letter summarising what you think you could bring to the job.

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/about_digital_uk/jobs

Mr. Rabbit

One of the directors of UTV stated on UTV Live yesterday evening that DSO in the province will start in the middle of next year (June ?) and will be completed by the end of 2012.

I would imagine some sort of official announcement fairly soon.

UK Free's date of March 31st does seem somewhat pessimistic and out of date.

The Cush

News report on UTV Live last night on the latest Ofcom Communications Market report (2011)

Michael Wilson, Managing Director of UTV was interviewed in the report said switchover would be starting "towards the second half of next year".

Figures from the news report:
10% of the population rely on analogue TV thru the aerial with 8% in urban areas and 15% in rural areas.

Meanwhile the report also highlights around 10% of homes here are still relying on the analogue TV signal to watch shows.

The digital switchover is due to happen next year - Northern Ireland one of the last areas in the UK to go fully digital - and for those who are not prepared, they will be left looking at a television screens.

In urban areas less than eight percent of homes are still using the analogue signal, but in the countryside it is almost double that figure, at 15%.

Michael Wilson is Managing Director of UTV. He said he is not surprised at the figure.

"Northern Ireland is in no worse a position than other UK regions were prior to the education process.

"We will be telling all our analogue audience on UTV that the signals will be switched off. They'll be getting those messages on screen, so if you're already watching digital you won't get the message.

"No member of the analogue audience will be unaware that the signal will be going, so I think the figure of 10% is exactly where we would expect to be with 18 months to go before the digital switchover."

http://www.u.tv/News/Social-networking-on-the-rise-in-NI/9f72f484-bd66-4b20-bae1-37b298623b59

News report video clip - http://www.u.tv/utvplayer/everywhere/player.aspx?vidid=138377&chapid=113244&arti_id=9f72f484-bd66-4b20-bae1-37b298623b59&clientid=100000

Mr. Rabbit

At least with Saorsat it's technically possible to have a Freesat HD PVR for all the FTA UK also, though how well that would handle MHEG5, EPG and Series Link on Saorsat is unknown. Will need an 80cm (or 90cm) dish for the dual/multi-feed where 65cm would do for single feed. At least Triax does have strong enough arm for 4x LNBFs and "off the shelf" adaptor for up to 4 LNBs. It also means people can add 19E and 13E for price of LNB and broaden their minds.

People claim the Humax Terrestrial equivalent is working for them in South East for Saorview and "Freeview HD", but there is no RTE "Series link" transmission to test PVR compatibility yet.

I don't quite understand Watty.

How can I receive several different sattelites on the one dish with just the addition of several LNBs without having to repostion the dish ?

I've an old 1 metre Sky dish (used for analogue) between 19E and 13E (once upon a time people did that with their Sky dishes !) fitted with a non universal LNB. I assume all I would need would be to reposition the dish (where to ? Freesat ?) and add the Saorsat LNB (i.e. LNB F ?) with new (Universal ?) LNBs for 13E and 19E ?

Will I need a disecq swith ? How does this work ? How do I set t5his up ?

Just wondering as to why and how I can have a fixed dish and yet receive several different satellites.

Sponge Bob

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

How can I receive several different sattelites on the one dish with just the addition of several LNBs without having to repostion the dish ?

I've an old 1 metre Sky dish (used for analogue) between 19E and 13E (once upon a time people did that with their Sky dishes !) fitted with a non universal LNB. I assume all I would need would be to reposition the dish (where to ? Freesat ?) and add the Saorsat LNB (i.e. LNB F ?) with new (Universal ?) LNBs for 13E and 19E ?

Will I need a disecq swith ? How does this work ? How do I set t5his up ?

Just wondering as to why and how I can have a fixed dish and yet receive several different satellites.

If you have a big enough dish you can pick up a load of sats, I suspect Watty does 13e 19e 23e and 28e with that rig. Yes you need diseq to switch. The Humax Freesat HD boxes have a 'hidden' but functional diseq menu.

The Cush

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

One of the directors of UTV stated on UTV Live yesterday evening that DSO in the province will start in the middle of next year (June ?) and will be completed by the end of 2012.

I would imagine some sort of official announcement fairly soon.

UK Free's date of March 31st does seem somewhat pessimistic and out of date.

Hi Mr. Rabbit, were you once Peter Henderson of this borough, just saw an almost duplicate posting over DS?

Richard

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

UK Free also list the current brougher transmitter as having the full Freeview service:

http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=IH350527

UK Free is not official at all. It's not always accurate, either.