Digital Switchover - UTV Region (DigitalUK)

reslfj

Sam Russell wrote: »

Clearly to receive the mini-mux would require a T2 receiver (probably FreeviewHD certified). Now, if one had a Saorview/FreeviewHD iDTV receiving both the mini-mux and Saorview signals, what order would the channels be put?

I doubt if there are many places where both signals could be received.

You need the FreeviewHD receiver in order to get the UK HD channels next year - and continue to watch UK TV while the migration to all DVB-T2 takes place.

Some think (hope) this will take a long time - but upgrading from Freeview SD to Freeview HD - i.e. both DVB-T2 and MPEG-4 - will give around a 2.5 times increase in capacity (DVB-T2 1,67x + MPEG4 ~ 1.5 x)

This is very, very attractive from an ecomnomic point of view and money talks.

The move to DVB-T2 in NI/UK is likely to continue shortly after last DSO (October 24 2012).

Lars

Mr. Rabbit

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned much is the switch from 2k to 8k mode post DSO.

A significant number of freeview boxes and digital TVs will actually go blank after DSO in NI next year. I wonder if they'll mention this fact when the publicity campaign starts in the spring ?

Siince I can watch 8k mode from Cambrett Hill, SD from there actually looks sharper, clearer, and more stable than 2k mode from Divis.

Freeview from all the main transmitters really should be significantly better after DSO in NI, even if you've just got a SD Freeview box.

Souriau

Since freeview HD was launch, Digital UK should make it known to the STB and iDTV manufactors to stop making SD MPEG-2 and make DVB-T2 HD MPEG-4
I am sure the transmission group would prefer all to be transmitted in new format as more SD channels can be pack into 1 DVB-T2 Mux

reslfj

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned much is the switch from 2k to 8k mode post DSO.

A significant number of Freeview boxes and digital TVs will actually go blank after DSO in NI next year. I wonder if they'll mention this fact when the publicity campaign starts in the spring ?

Since I can watch 8k mode from Cambrett Hill, SD from there actually looks sharper, clearer, and more stable than 2k mode from Divis.

Freeview from all the main transmitters really should be significantly better after DSO in NI, even if you've just got a SD Freeview box.

All native 2k only receiver chips are from 2001 or earlier - Some newer receivers are '2k locked' by the firmware and the firmware can't be upgraded any longer for more or less good reasons.

It is, however, not many - and it surely will be very few in NI next October.

The 2k mode is less robust against impulse noise - electrical sparks - but is otherwise as good as the 8k mode.
Divis is a very low power transmitter until DSO (just 2.6kW), while you seem to have a fine signal across the water from Scotland.
At DSO the ERP will increase to 100kW at Divis - some 38.5 times.


I think the better video quality may be due to the newer MPEG-2 encoders - used for the post DSO muxes.

Souriau wrote: »

Since freeview HD was launch, Digital UK should make it known to the STB and iDTV manufacturers to stop making SD MPEG-2 and make DVB-T2 HD MPEG-4

Now we are on an Irish board - and Ireland is not using the DVB-T2 nor the MPEG-2 standards.

But I agree, DVB-T2 equipment is by far the best option, where UK DTT can be received - now and in the much wider areas post DSO.

In NI and indeed in all of the UK - the continued marketing of DVB-T/MPEG-2 equipment is - IMHO - not in the best interest of the consumers.
You cannot stop production or marketing - WTO, EU and 'its a free country' - but you can recall the 'Digital Tick' from all DVB-T equipment - and recall it now.


Lars

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Yesterday the UK Government's Dept of Culture, Media and Sport published the following scanned letter - Letter to Pat Rabbitte TD from Ed Vaizey MP, 11 October 2011 - regarding the MoU and the 7th multiplex (mini-mux) in NI. An interesting read.

Main points
- RTÉ/TG4 not-for-profit joint venture company will establish and run the mux
- RTÉ Radio services may be carried after the mux is established
- Ofcom will award the joint venture company the broadcasting licence following consultation
- The UK Government will pay TG4's costs (approx one-third of the JV's overall cost)
- EU approval granted regarding the UK's funding of the mux
- RTÉ to begin the procurement process by the end of the month even before the JV company is established

RTÉ, yesterday, published the tender for the provision of multiplexing and distribution services and/or broadcast transmission services for its Northern Ireland mini-mux.

http://www.e-tenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV287941

- Joint Venture (JV) company to be established
Northern Ireland (N.I.) Multiplex Company Ltd. (a joint venture to be established between RTÉ and TG4)
Murray House, Murray Street
Belfast BT1 6DN

- Two lots
Lot 1 - Multiplexing and distribution services to 2 sites for RTÉ1 & 2, TG4. Future radio service and maybe one extra TV channel.
Lot 2 - Broadcast transmission of a multiplex from 3 sites (one relay) in Northern Ireland

- Duration of contracts - 12 years

- Invitations to tender starts - 13 Jan 2012
- Award of Contract - 29 Mar 2012

- Sites
1. Brougher Mountain (1kW ERP)
2. Black Mountain (Max 2kW ERP – min 1kW ERP); and
3. Carnmoney Hill (16W ERP).

II.1.1) Title attributed to the contract by the contracting authority:

The provision of multiplexing and distribution services and/or broadcast transmission services for Northern Ireland.

II.1.5) Short description of the contract or purchase(s)

In February 2010, the UK and Irish Governments signed a memorandum of understanding which gives effect to terms of the Belfast and St. Andrews agreements with respect to the extension of coverage of TG4, and latterly RTÉ One and RTÉ Two, throughout Northern Ireland.

RTÉ(acting on behalf of a joint venture company (Northern Ireland (N.I.) Multiplex Company Ltd.) to be established by RTÉ and TG4, Ireland's public service broadcasters) wishes to enter into a competitive dialogue procedure with interested and suitably qualified companies for the supply, installation, operation, support and maintenance of broadcasting, distribution and transmission services of RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 within Northern Ireland over a twelve (12) year period. There may be a requirement for carriage of a radio service and a further television service.

The requirements under this procurement will be split into the following 2 lots:

— Lot 1:
—— Multiplexing and distribution,
—— Creation of a multiplex including RTÉ One, RTÉ Two, and TG4 with distribution to 2 transmission sites in Northern Ireland. There may be a requirement for carriage of a radio service and a further television service.

— Lot 2:
—— Broadcast transmission,
—— Broadcast transmission of a multiplex from 3 sites (one relay) in Northern Ireland.

Information about lots

Lot No: 1
Lot title: Multiplexing and distribution services

1)Short description

Creation of a multiplex of RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 with distribution to 2 transmission sites in Northern Ireland. There may be a requirement for carriage of a radio service and a further television service.

4) Indication about different date for duration of contract or starting/completion

Duration in months: 144 (from the award of the contract)

Lot No: 2
Lot title: Broadcast transmission services

1) Short description
Broadcast transmission of a multiplex from 3 sites (one relay) in Northern Ireland.

4)
Indication about different date for duration of contract or starting/completion

Duration in months: 144 (from the award of the contract)

IV.3.3) Conditions for obtaining specifications and additional documents or descriptive document

Time limit for receipt of requests for documents or for accessing documents: 9.12.2011

IV.3.4) Time limit for receipt of tenders or requests to participate

16.12.2011 - 12:00

IV.3.5) Date of dispatch of invitations to tender or to participate to selected candidates

13.1.2012

RTÉ's Northern Ireland Multiplex Project
- http://www.rte.ie/about/tenders/niproject/moi-15-11-11.doc
- http://www.rte.ie/about/tenders/niproject/pqq-lot-1-multiplexing-and-distribution-services-15-11-11.doc
- http://www.rte.ie/about/tenders/niproject/pqq-lot-2-broadcast-transmission-services-15-11-11.doc

sesswhat

This multiplex will be fully integrated into Freeview HD and capable of carrying three television services in standard definition with stereo audio and provision for access services. These will include:
RTÉ One,
RTÉ Two;
and TG4.

Standard definition only I see.

The multiplex must be capable of expansion to carry one further television service and radio service.

Oireachtas TV?

The Cush

sesswhat wrote: »

The multiplex must be capable of expansion to carry one further television service and radio service.

Oireachtas TV?

RTÉ News Now? It's an RTÉ service, Oireachtas TV isn't.

Radio service - RTÉ Radio 1 or RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta?


Who could win the contracts, lot 2 (broadcast transmission) Arqiva do all this at moment for Freeview I believe? Lot 1 (multiplexing and distribution) Arqiva or other?

Digifriendly

Sam Russell wrote: »

Clearly to receive the mini-mux would require a T2 receiver (probably FreeviewHD certified). Now, if one had a Saorview/FreeviewHD iDTV receiving both the mini-mux and Saorview signals, what order would the channels be put?

I doubt if there are many places where both signals could be received.

Depends on strength of mini-mux. Certainly if it is anything like present strength of Freeview from Divis it will be available to much of the east of NI with decent aerial setup and remember with ROI DTT null being removed northwards much of same area will be able to pick up Saorview.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

Clearly to receive the mini-mux would require a T2 receiver (probably FreeviewHD certified). Now, if one had a Saorview/FreeviewHD iDTV receiving both the mini-mux and Saorview signals, what order would the channels be put?

I'd guess that would depend on which country is selected at setup, the out of country/region services would be placed in the 800's.

The mini-mux channels will have Freeview LCNs and so should appear before the Saorview channels if UK is selected on install and the receiver is within range of the mini-mux transmitter and a Saorview transmitter.

RTÉ is undertaking this procurement on behalf of a proposed Joint Venture company which will operate a 7th multiplex in Northern Ireland as part of Freeview HD. This multiplex will be fully integrated into Freeview HD and capable of carrying three television services in standard definition with stereo audio and provision for access services

http://www.rte.ie/about/tenders/niproject/moi-15-11-11.doc

reslfj

The Cush wrote: »

1. Brougher Mountain (1kW ERP)
2. Black Mountain (Max 2kW ERP – min 1kW ERP)

Digifriendly wrote: »

Depends on strength of mini-mux. Certainly if it is anything like present strength of Freeview from Divis it will be available to much of the east of NI with decent aerial setup...

The proposed DVB-T2 mode - 16-QAM 32k GI=1/128 CR=1/2 is - in a Rayleigh* channel - 12.7dB more robust than the mode used for PSB-3.

The 1kW output should be roughly equivalent to PSB-3 transmitted with 18,5kW and in the 2kW direction (North and West?) like PSB-3 transmitted with 37 kW.

I do not understand the need for the low 2kW ERP to the North and West - what is the problem in 10kW or even 20kW in these directions ???

The present PSB pre DSO ERP from Divis is 2.3kW - the post ERP will be 100kW (with unknown directional restrictions).
The NI mini-mux can be expected to have a coverage very equal til the PSB muxes (20kW) from Brougher Mountain.

Lars

* I have used data for the Rayleigh (indirect/echo) channel - In a Ricean channel the required C/N would be 12.2dB lower for the mini-mux.

lawhec

If the proposed transmission mode by reslfj is the one used, it'll give a 14.26Mbps data rate on the multiplex which for three MPEG-4 video services would probably be about 4Mbps average for each - a rate that would pretty much piss all over the rest of the SD Freeview channels! Surprised that at least one channel wasn't considered for HD.

Mr. Rabbit

The 2k mode is less robust against impulse noise - electrical sparks - but is otherwise as good as the 8k mode.

Comparing Cambret Hill with Divis, I still think 8K mode is better (i.e. far clearer and sharper) than 2K mode, in my honest opinion.

It could be just my imagination, or possibly due to the stronger signal (2.3 kw from Divis isn't as good as 2.8 KW from Cambret Hill).

I'm not sure what 2/1kw from Black Mountain (I assume it'll be horizontally polarised) will look like on my set up, but at least we have Carnmoney Hill.

reslfj

lawhec wrote: »

If the proposed transmission mode by reslfj is the one used, it'll give a 14.26Mbps data rate on the multiplex which for three MPEG-4 video services would probably be about 4Mbps average for each - a rate that would pretty much piss all over the rest of the SD Freeview channels! ...

As shown here the bit rate will be 15.037 Mbps - maybe 2 Mbps will be used for ERP, SI etc and ~13 Mbps for the channels.

This will allow 4 channels of 3.2 Mbps MPEG-4 - and a super SD quality.

Lars

Richard

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned much is the switch from 2k to 8k mode post DSO.

A significant number of freeview boxes and digital TVs will actually go blank after DSO in NI next year. I wonder if they'll mention this fact when the publicity campaign starts in the spring ?

It was mentioned here in Granadaland two years ago, but it wasn't a big thing.

I wish that they'd make Freeview HD boxes mandatory so that in a few years time they can switch to mpeg4 for all transmissions.

reslfj

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Comparing Cambret Hill with Divis, I still think 8K mode is better (i.e. far clearer and sharper) than 2K mode, in my honest opinion.

It could be just my imagination, or possibly due to the stronger signal (2.3 kw from Divis isn't as good as 2.8 KW from Cambret Hill).

I'm not sure what 2/1kw from Black Mountain (I assume it'll be horizontally polarised) will look like on my set up, but at least we have Carnmoney Hill.

As long as the digital signal is received and error corrected the picture quality depends only on the original digital encoding of the video (and audio). This MPEG encoding may however be different for pre- and post-DSO muxes.

But it has nothing to do with the 2k mode - nothing.

With analogue TV the picture is transmitted, but with digital TV it is only a description of the picture from which the pictures are constructed (in the MPEG-4 chip).

Much like a musical note is not itself a sound - but it describes a sound, its timing, its loudness etc, so the sound can be constructed by a piano or an orchestra. As long at the note can be read and understood - the final sound will not depend upon the shape or deformation of the note from the publisher to you.

Lars

Mr. Rabbit

reslfj wrote: »

As long as the digital signal is received and error corrected the picture quality depends only on the original digital encoding of the video (and audio). This MPEG encoding may however be different for pre- and post-DSO muxes.

But it has nothing to do with the 2k mode - nothing.

With analogue TV the picture is transmitted, but with digital TV it is only a description of the picture from which the pictures are constructed (in the MPEG-4 chip).

Much like a musical note is not itself a sound - but it describes a sound, its timing, its loudness etc, so the sound can be constructed by a piano or an orchestra. As long at the note can be read and understood - the final sound will not depend upon the shape or deformation of the note from the publisher to you.

Lars

For whatever reason Lars, Cambret Hill definitely looks far better than Divis.

reslfj

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

For whatever reason Lars, Cambret Hill definitely looks far better than Divis.

The truth is in the eyes of the beholder, but it's not due to the 2k mode.

Lars

lawhec

reslfj wrote: »

As shown here the bit rate will be 15.037 Mbps - maybe 2 Mbps will be used for ERP, SI etc and ~13 Mbps for the channels.

This will allow 4 channels of 3.2 Mbps MPEG-4 - and a super SD quality.

Lars

Ah, I was calculating using PP4 and 32k COFDM rather than PP7 and 32k-ext!

Mr. Rabbit

reslfj wrote: »

The truth is in the eyes of the beholder, but it's not due to the 2k mode.

Lars

Whatever Lars, but it still looks better.

There must be some reason for it, 8K mode or not.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

- Sites
1. Brougher Mountain (1kW ERP)
2. Black Mountain (Max 2kW ERP – min 1kW ERP); and
3. Carnmoney Hill (16W ERP).

While we know the sites and the ERP's for the mini-mux in NI we don't know the channel allocations yet.

Limavady was one of the sites speculated about here before the official announcement but didn't make the final list.

A recent Arqiva report indicates that Limavady was a planned mini-mux site - Ch 48, 20kW.

However, as part of the negotiations for the Northern Ireland Mini-Mux use of channel 48 at Limavady was agreed at 20 kW subject to a maximum power towards Letterkenny 235° – 290° of 2 kW. As the channel is no longer required for the Northern Ireland Mini-Mux it could be used for a GI channel.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/tvops/ArqivaReport.pdf

Mr. Rabbit

The Cush wrote: »

While we know the sites and the ERP's for the mini-mux in NI we don't know the channel allocations yet.

Limavady was one of the sites speculated about here before the official announcement but didn't make the final list.

A recent Arqiva report indicates that Limavady was a planned mini-mux site - Ch 48, 20kW.

Do you know why Limavady was turned down Cush ? Was it anything to do with Saorview from Hloywell Hill, Moville, or Truskmore ?

I assume most areas that are covered by Limavady will get Saorview from either Holywell Hill, Moville, or possbly Truskmore ?

Mr. Rabbit

P.S What's a GI channel ?

Peter Rhea

GI = Geographic Interleaved, channels that can be used on a local basis only so as not to cause interference elsewhere.

The Cush

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Do you know why Limavady was turned down Cush ? Was it anything to do with Saorview from Hloywell Hill, Moville, or Truskmore ?

I assume most areas that are covered by Limavady will get Saorview from either Holywell Hill, Moville, or possbly Truskmore ?

No indication in the Ofcom docs but as you say it could be that the area will mostly be covered by the Saorview transmitters.

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

P.S What's a GI channel ?

Geographic Interleaved spectrum, the spaces between the existing DTT channels (within channels 21-30 and 39-60).

Mr. Rabbit

Peter Rhea wrote: »

GI = Geographic Interleaved, channels that can be used on a local basis only so as not to cause interference elsewhere.

Thanks Peter/Cush. With you now.

Didn't think it had anything to do with NI radio hams !

Ronnie Raygun

Peter Rhea wrote: »

GI = Geographic Interleaved, channels that can be used on a local basis only so as not to cause interference elsewhere.

Not to be confused with "white space" proposal. The GI are to be broadcast from actual transmitter sites & can have as much coverage as their location allows wrt others using the same frequency; the existing transmission plan takes priority (or should do).

Mr. Rabbit

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

Not to be confused with "white space" proposal. The GI are to be broadcast from actual transmitter sites & can have as much coverage as their location allows wrt others using the same frequency; the existing transmission plan takes priority (or should do).

Isn't Limivady one of the areas ear marked for local TV ?

Ronnie Raygun

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Isn't Limivady one of the areas ear marked for local TV ?

Limavady has an allocation (UHF 48) along with L'Derry (UHF 51) & Divis (UHF 30). These are GI channels.

The Cush

Dáil question from Gerry Adams on Saorview in NI on Tuesday

Written Answers - Television Reception
Tuesday, 22 November 2011

321. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if the Saorview service will be available to all households in the North. [35457/11]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): A Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was signed by the British and Irish Governments on 1 February 2010. The Memorandum deals with broadcast services and related radio spectrum issues in the context of the provision of digital terrestrial services on the island of Ireland. The MoU also provides for cooperation between the authorities in both jurisdictions on this issue.

One of the main aims of the Memorandum is to ensure the continued provision of TG4 in Northern Ireland after the switch-off of the analogue broadcast signals on 24 October 2012. Under the Memorandum, the UK Government has also agreed to facilitate the widespread availability of RTÉ 1 and RTÉ 2 on the Northern Ireland digital terrestrial television network. My Department continues to engage with ComReg, the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, RTÉ and the Authorities in the UK on these issues and much progress has been made to date. I can confirm that the UK authorities have made spectrum available in Northern Ireland to facilitate this aim.

In addition, the Memorandum has facilitated the development of a coordinated approach on both sides of the border in respect of the roll-out of digital terrestrial television (DTT) and analogue switch-off. I recently announced Wednesday 24 October 2012 as the official date of completion of the digital TV switchover, when the analogue TV network in Ireland will be switched off. Digital UK also announced that the analogue TV network will also be turned off in Northern Ireland on 24 October 2012, in order to make the transition to digital as straightforward as possible for TV viewers and broadcasters.

In addition to the reception of signals from the Northern Ireland DTT network, certain parts of Northern Ireland will continue to receive the Irish channels from ‘overspill’, which is when broadcast signals are received outside of the intended coverage area. This currently happens to an extent with the existing analogue system and will continue to occur after analogue switch-off with the SAORVIEW DTT system. Detailed information on the SAORVIEW service is available from www.saorview.ie. In addition, my Department has developed an information booklet and a dedicated website on the digital switchover process in Ireland and a copy of the booklet is available on the “publications” section of the website at www.goingdigital.ie.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/11/22/00226.asp#N2

sesswhat

In addition to the reception of signals from the Northern Ireland DTT network, certain parts of Northern Ireland will continue to receive the Irish channels from ‘overspill’, which is when broadcast signals are received outside of the intended coverage area.

Except that in this case Northern Ireland clearly is part of the intended coverage area.