RTE commence broadcasting free to air on satellite at 9e on KA band

givecredit · 26-05-2011 9:45am #1

As the title says, saorsat has begun testing.

20185 L dvbs2

More details here:

20185 L

Saorsat
DVB-S2 25000-1/2
QPSK
8564-1001
1.0

110519

RTÉ One tests MPEG-4 1101 1101 1201 E

RTÉ Two tests MPEG-4/HD 1102 1102 1202 E

RTÉ News Now MPEG-4 1105 1105 1205 E

RTÉ Radio 1 1226 1226 E

RTÉ Radio 2 FM 1227 1227 E

RTÉ Lyric FM 1228 1228 E

RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta 1229 1229 Ir

RTÉ Radio 1 Extra 1230 1230 E

RTÉ Pulse 1231 1231 E

RTÉ 2XM 1232 1232 E

RTÉ Choice 1233 1233 E

RTÉ Gold 1234 1234 E

RTÉ Chill
1235 1235 E

RTÉ Junior 1235 1235 E

Eutelsat Ka-Sat © Lyngemark Satellite, last updated 2011-05-20 - http://www.lyngsat.com/eka.html

bk · 26-05-2011 10:00am

Interesting no TV3 or 3e.

watty · 26-05-2011 10:21am

Because it's only tests. Note the SR is 25,000 FEC 1/2

alfreg · 26-05-2011 10:44am

Can this be received in London, What gear would I need?

Apogee · 26-05-2011 10:45am

I'll post the rest of the pics in the 'Saorsat' sticky thread...

watty · 26-05-2011 10:56am

alfreg wrote: »

Can this be received in London, What gear would I need?

today maybe, with a 1.8m dish (guess, could be bigger) and Left hand circular Polarised Ka-Band LNBF.

But later when there are French Internet services it's very very unlikely.

http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage

This is WHY RTE can use Ka-Sat and not 28E for FTA tv.

Rick_ · 26-05-2011 12:13pm

What about in the north? I am in the process of getting a new dish installed for Freesat on 28.2E but I wonder if it might be worth sticking another dish up for 9E and get RTÉ FTA as well.

watty · 26-05-2011 12:52pm

One 90/95cm Triax like down the page here should do:

http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

kuro_man · 26-05-2011 2:01pm

I have a 80cm dish pointed @ 5w, could I add an LNB to this - my terrestrial reception is poor.

watty · 26-05-2011 2:18pm

9E to 5W is 14 degrees... Limit is about 20

You need though to realign to 5E or 1W. So the 80cm may not be big enough as you may loose too much 5W signal. Depends how strong your 5W is.

Leaving it at 5W may make the 9E offset too weak. But we don't know yet what the levels are.

If you wait a couple of months the suitable Ka-Band LNBFs should be available cheaply. I can't say more.

So in theory it may be possible.

Also your model of dish needs a stout LNB arm and a suitable Offset bracket. Triax have suitable dishes and brackets.

liamtech · 26-05-2011 3:03pm

I think i know the answer to this question - but il ask anyway - what type of LNB is required and where can we get one... its obviously a different type to a standard Universal LNB - Also my apologies if this has been addressed elsewhere but what polarization is "L"?

watty · 26-05-2011 3:28pm

Circular comes in Left Hand or Right hand. You can of course get switchable ones. But each Ka-Sat spot is only one polarisation.
( I forget which is clockwise etc RH = Clockwise probably)

There will be plenteous supply of suitable Ka-band LNBFs by the time the service is "official". Seriously don't rush!

The general belief was that although DirecTV and Hylas are Circular polarisation that Ka-Sat would be Plane Polarisation as the Tooway on Ka Band on HB6 is. No-one actually said so.

It's obviously circular (L or R depending on spot) rather than Plane (H or V depending on spot).

Pretty pictures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_polarisation

rlogue · 26-05-2011 3:48pm

watty wrote: »

There will be plenteous supply of suitable Ka-band LNBFs by the time the service is "official". Seriously don't rush!

Watty, the majority of us are enthusiasts - of course we're going to rush!

liamtech · 26-05-2011 4:02pm

i might get one just to mess around with it on my spare HD Satellite box, which is currently going to waste - any links to KA LNB's would be greatly appreciated!

lawhec · 26-05-2011 4:52pm

watty wrote: »

Because it's only tests. Note the SR is 25,000 FEC 1/2

Net bit rate of 24.721 Mbps.

The Cush · 26-05-2011 5:03pm

lawhec wrote: »

Net bit rate of 24.721 Mbps.

About 1 DTT Mux worth.

chputney · 26-05-2011 5:32pm

I use a Tooway LNB that I bought from eBay. It is a VSAT LNB which requires and External 30V supply and the LO GHz. It is not standard mounting.

watty · 26-05-2011 5:38pm

rlogue wrote: »

Watty, the majority of us are enthusiasts - of course we're going to rush!

yes, well I made a little email myself ...

But for people that actually watch the program content rather than the BER graphs there will be LNBFs

watty · 26-05-2011 5:40pm

chputney wrote: »

I use a Tooway LNB that I bought from eBay. It is a VSAT LNB which requires and External 30V supply and the LO GHz. It is not standard mounting.

That's a complete ODU with a transmitter. You only need the receiver part (LNB not the BUC).

Fried eyeballs.

Apogee · 26-05-2011 5:46pm

@chputney - How did you find the frequency/parameters? Did you use a blindscanner? I put a posting on the Yahoo Feedhunters site a bit over a month ago but nobody reported back anything.

dbcool · 26-05-2011 6:17pm

watty wrote: »

That's a complete ODU with a transmitter. You only need the receiver part (LNB not the BUC).

Fried eyeballs.

yeas thats the same lnb i have and i am trying to mount it on a td110 - its massive! are you tell me that i can open it up - carve out the lnb and basically sellotape it to my ordinary lnb like you have in your set up pictures?

this will make life a lot easier!

Apogee · 26-05-2011 6:26pm

dbcool wrote: »

yeas thats the same lnb i have and i am trying to mount it on a td110 - its massive! are you tell me that i can open it up - carve out the lnb and basically sellotape it to my ordinary lnb like you have in your set up pictures?

No, the Too-way unit is integrated unfortunately.

chputney · 26-05-2011 6:51pm

The power is 24V to 30V DC into the Tx F connector. The LO of the Rx LNB is 21.2 GHz so the spectrum is inverted. The RTE signal is at 1015MHz. (21200 - 20185 = 1015) The Transmit and receive are integrated so don't take it apart. You will have to make some sort of adapter to mount it. Use a Ku LNB first to make sure you are pointing at 9E and then switch to the Ka. The transmitter is disabled without a tone on the transmit F connector (but don't stay in the area in front just in case)

The LNB spec is here http://www.viasat.com/files/assets/web/datasheets/3Watt_Ka-Band_Transceiver_102_lores.pdf

Stinicker · 26-05-2011 6:58pm

Does any one know if any of the KA Band LNBs available from the United States that are used for the Dish Network and DirecTV would work with SaorSat? I have a one Metre Satellite Dish and Technomate HD receiver etc.

Most critically my Saorview reception is not reliable enough and I am one of the 2% who will be Saorsat dependent.

mcwhirter · 26-05-2011 7:29pm

Are there for sale lnb's that receive ku and ka band for a motorised dish setup with one lnb.

watty · 26-05-2011 7:39pm

No
It's been "home brewed" for C/Ku band badly by putting a Ku LNBF waveguide (a 3/4" copper pipe) inside a C Band LNB and connecting a Ku LNB-F at rear. Reduces gain of the C-band a lot.

You'd need a mechanical change-over adaptor.

The waveguide for ku is about 19mm and I think for Ka about 11mm

Also most but not all Ku is Linear polarisation. Ka-Sat and Hylas are Circular, but HB6 Ka-Band is Linear.

chputney · 26-05-2011 8:09pm

There will be a Ka Circular LNB available later this year just for users who don't want to have satellite broadband as well.

As for the US LNBs that have Ka capability, there are a number of problems here. The mounting is different and the LNBs have multiple units. For DirecTV there is SL3 and SL5 which have 3 and 5 LNBs. The 5 LNBs are a power hog and a typical receiver cannot support this. The SL3 is specifically for 99W and 103W and the LNB has internal frequency conversion which I believe is too low. The US Ka for DirecTV is 18.3GHz to 19.8GHz.

If you want to actually watch TV, then my advice is hang on for a few months until the Irish standard Ka LNBs are available.

tmcw · 26-05-2011 8:20pm

chputney wrote: »

....If you want to actually watch TV, then my advice is hang on for a few months until the Irish standard Ka LNBs are available.

A few months! But I want one now!!

ISAA · 26-05-2011 9:11pm

All,

Did a few tests today,
74cm dish :
KA band L.N.B :
Freguson averia decoder :

no feed horn, just straight waveguide flange.

Excellent pictures :

No need for a extra PSU.used standard voltage from rx, and showed up on spectrum, no problem.

Apogee · 26-05-2011 9:55pm

tmcw wrote: »

A few months! But I want one now!!

If you're really desperate, you could get a Wildblue TRIA (Transmit Receive Integrated Assembly) - it's essentially the same thing as the Too-way device by CHPutney above. Make sure it's LEFT or LHCP. Be aware that it weights a bloody ton and requires 24-30v PSU to operate.

Ebay.com rather than ebay.ie
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=wildblue+tria&_sacat=0&_odkw=wildblue&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

I picked one up for about $30.

watty · 26-05-2011 11:36pm

chputney wrote: »

There will be a Ka Circular LNB available later this year just for users who don't want to have satellite broadband as well.

As for the US LNBs that have Ka capability, there are a number of problems here. The mounting is different and the LNBs have multiple units. For DirecTV there is SL3 and SL5 which have 3 and 5 LNBs. The 5 LNBs are a power hog and a typical receiver cannot support this. The SL3 is specifically for 99W and 103W and the LNB has internal frequency conversion which I believe is too low. The US Ka for DirecTV is 18.3GHz to 19.8GHz.

If you want to actually watch TV, then my advice is hang on for a few months until the Irish standard Ka LNBs are available.

Agreed. The DirecTV stuff is no use at all.

Also there are four bands of Ka LNBs for sale!
you need 19.2 to 20.2 model Or similar as Saorsat is 20.185

seanp_25 · 27-05-2011 12:13am

Any info on bitrates being used for the individual channels?

watty · 27-05-2011 8:24am

The overall capacity is identical to one DTT Mux. The current content is just test loops, so bitrate is of no significance.

It's presumed that live TV will use the same transport stream as DTT to save cost of 2nd set of encoders and playout. This also makes using the satellite feed in "undecoded" Transport stream format very cheap and simple to provide backup feed to DTT sites and primary feed for self-help community TV fill-in DTT transmitters.

tmcw · 27-05-2011 9:51am

Apogee wrote: »

If you're really desperate, you could get a Wildblue TRIA (Transmit Receive Integrated Assembly) - it's essentially the same thing as the Too-way device by CHPutney above. Make sure it's LEFT or LHCP. Be aware that it weights a bloody ton and requires 24-30v PSU to operate.

Ebay.com rather than ebay.ie
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=wildblue+tria&_sacat=0&_odkw=wildblue&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

I picked one up for about $30.

Hmmm, maybe I'll wait then, just drool over the pictures posted up here. I still need to decide on a HD receiver first anyway.

Seems like this is relatively new tech, nothing really suitable on the market for the Irish user who just needs to receive. Are we likely to see suitable LNBs similar in size to ones like the one below before the end of the year?

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3LQ1FN9wXtaJlPJcD8IkrnAIrNgfauKif0bD6O_8vKKsjAbmgdxF6_ek

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3LQ1FN9wXtaJlPJcD8IkrnAIrNgfauKif0bD6O_8vKKsjAbmgdxF6_ek

watty · 27-05-2011 10:53am

Yes, I said so already.

As has Apogee.

dmm1000 · 27-05-2011 12:54pm

not sure if its too early to answer this question - but would anyone hazard a guess that Freesat HD equipped TVs will be able to tune into the frequencies that Saorsat currently / will be broadcasting on ?

Apogee · 27-05-2011 1:01pm

dmm1000 wrote: »

not sure if its too early to answer this question - but would anyone hazard a guess that Freesat HD equipped TVs will be able to tune into the frequencies that Saorsat currently / will be broadcasting on ?

In theory, yes. In practice, however, it may be difficult because the non-Freesat mode in most of the Freesat TVs is quite limited and certainly not user-friendly. Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the Freesat TVs support Diseqc, so the TV couldn't switch between 28E and 9E automatically - you would have to do it manually or by RC.

Short answer: yes, but not without difficulty.

watty · 27-05-2011 1:12pm

There are two aspects..

1) If you ONLY want Saorsat, then with suitable dish and Ka-Band LNBF it will work via "other channels"/non-Freesat, but only true "Freesat HD", not HDTVs with "Freesat". Same applies to a setbox.

2) If you want Saorsat AND "Freesat HD" then you need a larger (solid, not mesh/perforated) dish and dual 28E / 9E Ku & Ka feeds and Diseqc switch. The receiver (TV or setbox) has to support non-Freesat AND Diseqc switching. Freesat must be on port 1. Or you can use a 2nd dish for Saorsat with Ka band LNBF and Diseqc. If you have more than one receiver or TV or a PVR, then a Multiswitch may be a better option than a Diseqc switch. Your receiver still needs to do Diseqc

http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/
http://www.techtir.ie/isaa/saorsat_saorview

dmm1000 · 27-05-2011 1:14pm

ISAA wrote: »

All,

Did a few tests today,
74cm dish :
KA band L.N.B :
Freguson averia decoder :

no feed horn, just straight waveguide flange.

Excellent pictures :

No need for a extra PSU.used standard voltage from rx, and showed up on spectrum, no problem.

Hi Gerry

do you mind me asking where could one source the part(s) that make up the LNB you used in the first pic (of the dish on wall) ?

bazza442 · 27-05-2011 1:15pm

does this mean you can tune into any free to air channel with this dish and box such as film 4?

watty · 27-05-2011 2:18pm

dmm1000 wrote: »

Hi Gerry

do you mind me asking where could one source the part(s) that make up the LNB you used in the first pic (of the dish on wall) ?

I spoke to Gerry on phone.

That is not a long term or sensible solution. There will shortly be proper LNBFs. It's unlikely that Ka-Sat will have live RTE on it before then, though I could be wrong.

That LNB has not got a mount (tied on) and it has no weatherproofing or horn.

Next week I'll test a suitable horn and see if a polarisation converter is possible (That's a plane LNB, for H or V signals, not for Left Circular Polarised).

Stinicker · 27-05-2011 3:44pm

bazza442 wrote: »

does this mean you can tune into any free to air channel with this dish and box such as film 4?

No, Saorsat when fully operational will only be a duplicate of whats available via Saorview and all that will be received from it will be RTÉ1, RTÉ2 HD, TV3, TG4, RTÉ News Now, 3e, RTÉ Jr and RTÉ 1 +1hr.

The British channels you speak of are available separately via Astra 28.2° East through the UK's Freesat platform and on Sky Television, both Sky TV and Freesat use the same Satellite position, Astra 28.2° East and the standard Sky minidish is used for reception of both platforms.

Saorsat by contrast will be broadcasting from KA-SAT at 9.0° East and will require a KA-Band LNB and a different dish.

Some satellite specialists will be able to receive both satellite positions from the same dish using multiple off set LNB's or using a specialist dish known as a Torodial Dish which allows for reception of different satellite positions on the same dish but with different LNB's.

Let me stress however that Saorsat is still in its infancy here and the KA-BAND satellite it will be broadcasting from was only launched into space over Christmas and now the RTE engineers are carrying out tests, which some of the enthusiasts here with specialised equipment have been able to receive. In due course when it launches to the consumer, equipment will be available. Until then its best to keep and eye on the boards to see what's happening and wait patiently until the equipment becomes available to the mass market.

watty · 27-05-2011 4:02pm

You don't need a Toriodal dish. A regular Triax will do 20 degree to 22 degree spread depending on size of dish and strength of satellites. They even make an adaptor specially for it. The Toriodal dish is for 45 degree to 50 degree spread, is much heavier and more expensive.

from http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

Stinicker · 27-05-2011 4:16pm

watty wrote: »

You don't need a Toriodal dish. A regular Triax will do 20 degree to 22 degree spread depending on size of dish and strength of satellites. They even make an adaptor specially for it. The Toriodal dish is for 45 degree to 50 degree spread, is much heavier and more expensive.

from http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

Oh I agree, a torodial is another way to do it though. I wonder will an LNB ever come to the market capable of receiving both KU and KA Bands? Or would it be an impossibility; if there did it would be handy for those on motorised systems who wanted to add Saorsat functionality to their rigs without adding another LNB.

Apogee · 27-05-2011 4:23pm

For the enthusiasts who can't wait, and for the few who pmed me looking for a source Ka-LNBs, they are Hughes branded LNBs.

So this...

... is this - note the part number. The guy who had these on ebay no longer stocks them. If someone else comes across a source?

It took me a few months to find a pic of the final unit in use, but they are used by the new Hylas service on 34w.

http://www.satellite-internet-forum.com/news/forum/europe-f181/

So if you could source one of these units, and remove the BUC, you'd have a proper feedhorn, depolariser and LNB assembly.

FWIW, the feedhorns and the depolarisers can be purchased individually from these units. It would be interesting to see if a standard 'WR42 Waveguide' Ka-LNB could be attached to the depolariser (without the need for the OMT). So then

Feedhorn

+ depolariser

+ LNB?

http://www.montanasatellitesupply.com/HughesNet_Satellite_Internet_Parts_s/67.htm

watty · 27-05-2011 5:35pm

You can regard Circular polarisation as H polarity delayed behind V polarity by 1/4 wavelength (or 90 degrees). Vice versa for the reverse handedness.

A piece of plastic will "slow" RF. (signals in Coax cables can be 0.66 of speed of light, the velocity factor), So if the plastic is shaped and orientated in the circular waveguide to slow V and not H (Rotate 90 degrees for reverse) then you get on one hand of circular polarisation a cancelling and on the other handedness only for example Horizontal. You can flair the 11mm or so pipe to rectangle to match the ka rectangular wave guide.

It can be done with screws in the wall of pipe. I will research!

I'll try Irish 1/2" (UK Metric 12.5mm might be better). It's 12.6mm ish Internal diameter. But may do for Ka-Band. A simple horn can be soldered to it at one end and the other flared to the Ka rectangular waveguide. Though I can maybe calculate the dimensions for focus rings.

A piece of shaped chopping board of enough length to slow "one polarisation" to convert Circular to horizontal (or vertical) is wedged in pipe...

Here is picture of maybe C-band using "pins" in circular waveguide to convert http://www.satsig.net/pointing/circular-polarisation-set-up.htm

Another part http://www.satellite-internet-forum.com/teflon-what-all-about-t1364.html

I don't think it has to be Teflon. I think any low loss at 20GHz plastic will work... But the screw/pin method may be easier.

watty · 27-05-2011 5:47pm

Stinicker wrote: »

Oh I agree, a torodial is another way to do it though. I wonder will an LNB ever come to the market capable of receiving both KU and KA Bands? Or would it be an impossibility; if there did it would be handy for those on motorised systems who wanted to add Saorsat functionality to their rigs without adding another LNB.

No.
Given that combo C-band / Ku-band LNBs are poor and not commercial I think a separate dish or mechanical changeover is the only Motorised solution.

Have you seen the weight, size and cost of T90 wavefrontier? Only desirable if you want more than 4 LNBs or more than 20 degrees.

Stinicker · 27-05-2011 7:20pm

watty wrote: »

Have you seen the weight, size and cost of T90 wavefrontier? Only desirable if you want more than 4 LNBs or more than 20 degrees.

I completely agree that for the average installation it would be overkill and the majority of satellites used by people here would be ranging from 9° East to 28.2° with 13, 16 and 19° East the most popular for Europeans here. I think the Torodial looks more aesthetically pleasing than the a standard Multi LNB dish however, especially if the front of my house was south facing I had no other choice I'd probably go for the torodial.

excollier · 27-05-2011 9:46pm

Has anyone considered that most satellite receivers are set for Ku and there may not be the ability in the tuner to go to the higher frequencies, ie above 12750? And yes I know that the incoming IF will be the same but when you scan or blind scan, you usually set the parameters to between 9750 and 12750, which is usually the upper limit
Same question for most satellite meters, mine is a Satlook Micro G2, and I know it's not S2 or HD, but has no facility for an LO setting higher than 12750, so unable even to detect Ka, just an observation, as Ka will be needing maybe 19000 - 20000

bog_trotter · 27-05-2011 9:51pm

Apogee wrote: »

In theory, yes. In practice, however, it may be difficult because the non-Freesat mode in most of the Freesat TVs is quite limited and certainly not user-friendly. Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the Freesat TVs support Diseqc, so the TV couldn't switch between 28E and 9E automatically - you would have to do it manually or by RC.

Short answer: yes, but not without difficulty.

I have a Sony Bravia Kdl37w5810 which has Freesat and Diseqc and the non-Freesat mode is user-friendly enough. I think this model is no longer made but can still be found on Amazon.

Apogee · 27-05-2011 9:55pm

@excollier - The frequency the receiver or satlook displays is irrelevant. Just 'do the math' and work backwards.

Ka-band freq - Ka-LO + Ku-LO = Ku frequency which corresponds to Ka frequency at IF level.

The spectrum pics I post earlier are from a Satlook Digital which also has preset LOs. Just use the IF value instead e.g. 1435MHz for Saorsat with a Ka-LNB of LO 18.75GHz.

RTE commence broadcasting free to air on satellite at 9e on KA band

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