The Leaving Cert Is A Form Of Slavery

rebel10

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Alright, I have my answer, thanks.

Lovely. Thanks for accusing me of something, and then when asked why, you avoid it and just name call. I can see you have no interest in being polite.

Aoifey!

rebel10 wrote: »

Sorry but where are you getting these figures from?

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Leaving Cert. is a load of fu*king sh**e. Wanna learn French in college? Okay, do well in your french exam, far enough. Oh... you need to be able to pass maths (which will more than likely never be useful in your life) and get a total of 300 plus points.

Oh, if you fail you're an idiot and you don't deserve to go to college.

It's a joke and it is slave labour. Average work day is 9 to 5.
Average school day is say... 9 - 3:30.
So the average working day is 8 hours. The average school day is around 6.5 hours or so.

Let's say we get up at 7am for both work and school and it takes us 30 minutes to get home.
This extends to waking up at 7am and being home at 5:30 from work.
For school it's get up at 7am and home about 4pm.

So a nine hour school day vs a 10.5 hours work day. Sounds better for school goers, right?

Except you aren't given homework and told to study (well you essentially have to study since the education system is horrible).
So let's say we'll give up... 2 hours for homework and 1.5 hours of studying per night. That's an extra 3.5 hours. And suddenly the school day extends to 12.5. Keep in my mind that most days, you will end up doing homework/studying for 5 hours (unless you don't make an effort).

Oh and on top of all that, we were encouraged to have an active social life and get a part-time job to save up money for college.

So yeah, it is slavery and anyone who doesn't understand it obviously can't remember what school is like.

Oh and don't even get me started on the whole "THOU MUST SIT IN SILENCE FOR A TOTAL OF 320 MINUTES EVERY DAY". School in general was and still is a complete load of sh**e in this country.

.

rebel10

Thanks Aoifey.

yawha

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Face facts, the education system in this country is a joke and needs to be changed, drastically. But no, we don't get that. Instead of we have teachers like you who believe that "STUDY HARD AND PUSH YOURSELF AND YOU WILL DO WELL!" is the correct method. It is not a method that anyone should have to do. It is a form of bullying and a system designed not to find the weak minded and help them, but to force them into the bottom of society all because they can't memorize several books of facts.

What do you suggest? Everyone is equal and should just automatically get whatever college course they like?

In reality you have to separate people and allocate college places based on some criteria. The Leaving Cert isn't perfect, but it does generally separate those with an aptitude for learning and applying themselves from others. Bullying? Slavery? Pfft, you don't have to go to school after the age of 16, you know?

partyatmygaff

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Creative writing in English aside (the first paper), the rest is robotic memory. It was just "write 10 essays or so, memorize them, done".

Memorise ten essays? That's the sign of a desperate student who is on the the path to C or D. People who get high grades in English do not do so by rote learning.

Chemistry is basically rote learning. There only exceptions I can think off were when you were given equations.

Ah... So describing why first ionisation energies change across the periodic table can now be rote learned?

Argue as much as you may feel the need to that Biology or another science can be rote learned but Chemistry cannot be rote learned.

Business is also rote learning. Yes, you have to, at times, apply certain things. But for the most part it's not really "free thinking". It's a set idea you learn and of all those ideas you know, you consider what's the best one for the situation. It's simple memory skills and very little common sense.

I know that this may sound boastful but let me assure that that is not my intention...

Let me tell you of my experiences with my Business mock exam. I have taught myself Business since September the start of this year. By taught myself I mean I have read the book once or twice to familiarise myself with the material. My study for the mock consisted of getting both the DEB and Examcraft exam papers and collating them together and then studying the sections that were to come up on both exams so that i'd be prepared for the Mock (A very stupid idea I know but it was my first ever Business exam since the JC so I was feeling a bit uneasy).

Fast forward to the day of the exam. I spent an hour prior to the exam studying only the sections that I thought were going to come up. The exam paper lands in front of me and lo and behold it's neither Examcraft nor DEB. I don't recall ever feeling so screwed for an exam. Imagine the situation, you've spent the past two hours or so learning completely irrelevant material and now you're faced with three hours of non-stop writing doing questions of a type you have never seen before.

I won't bore you with the details of the test but all in all over three hours I wrote a total of 15 pages. I got 91% in the exam. All of that without having ever sat a business paper before and with what turned out to be completely useless study the night before. What saved me was that I had knowledge and skill. You may say that there is no scope for presenting non-standard or different opinions. I say different. Normally, business students learn off examples and case studies for their exams. I didn't. One question that I remember quite clearly was

"Describe two advantages and two disadvantages of TNCs to the Irish economy"

I did not include a single point that was included in my business book, primarily as I neglected to study that chapter due to my bogus exam hints. Strangely enough, I answered the question using knowledge I acquired from boards... A disadvantage I gave was tax evasion by TNCs and the example of that was Google and its use of a holding company to lower its tax liabilities.

I never had engineering in my school. I also have no idea whatsoever about art.

Art is incredibly difficult from what i've heard from those that do it. You need to have a real talent for it to get an A1. Less than 1% each year actually do get an A1.

Engineering is in the same mould. You need a great deal of creativity and skill.

rebel10

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Alright, I have my answer, thanks.

Oh, right, the other bit.

It's on average that the students who tried to do well woudl have spent around 5 hours doing homework/studying. About 3 hours for homework and 2 hours for studying. Our school counsellor told us that an average of 6 hours in the week and 8 hours on the weekend would be expect of us if we wanted to do "well".

Interestingly, the majority of people in my school had to get grinds in various subjects and those that did, did very well. Those that did not but did the amount of studying that we were told to do just did well.
My point is you believe that "pushing yourself" is what is needed. It is not what is needed. A better system is needed. Anyone can tell you that. There's a reason grinds are very popular.

You do realise that people that take grinds are doing extra studying, that is why they do well.

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

You're defending the education system as a whole, not just the exams.

Actually no, the length of time would have a lot to do with it. You see, if you've been teaching a long time, you'd realize that most leaving cert students are incapable of being listened to. Many, many teachers do not coordinate their efforts and as such, the students are given too much to do. You would know this if you taught a long time. But again, that isn't really your fault, just something most teachers overlook and feel "their" subject is most important and that students should manage because they did.

And finally, if you have bothered your backside to read the thread you would have understood the 11.5 hour comment. But you did not bother to read it all.

Finally, you are very rude. I did read your posts, but because I mentioned nothing about hours of study, I was wondering why you kept referring to me as saying you need to do 11.5 hours.
You have made suggestions about me, called me names, none of which were deserving. You have no right to tell me that I cannot push my students to do well in their exams, where is the logic in not pushing them? Letting them do the bare minimum? Yes, you will be thanked for that.:rolleyes: My students enjoy me as a teacher, I work extremely hard and I give a huge amount of my free time to individuals who need it. That is why my students have succeeded in doing so well in exams. In my 8 years, I have never heard a student say to me that I am giving them too much work or that I am pushing them too hard. In future if you quote me, or decide to call me names, could you please give a reference from one of my posts and not make up things I have said? Thanks.

Chaotic_Forces

rebel10 wrote: »

You do realise that people that take grinds are doing extra studying, that is why they do well.

Finally, you are very rude. I did read your posts, but because I mentioned nothing about hours of study, I was wondering why you kept referring to me as saying you need to do 11.5 hours.
You have made suggestions about me, called me names, none of which were deserving. You have no right to tell me that I cannot push my students to do well in their exams, where is the logic in not pushing them? Letting them do the bare minimum? Yes, you will be thanked for that.:rolleyes: My students enjoy me as a teacher, I work extremely hard and I give a huge amount of my free time to individuals who need it. That is why my students have succeeded in doing so well in exams. In my 8 years, I have never heard a student say to me that I am giving them too much work or that I am pushing them too hard. In future if you quote me, or decide to call me names, could you please give a reference from one of my posts and not make up things I have said? Thanks.

I asked you a question, I am waiting for an answer. I assume it was yes but I want an aswer.

rebel10

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I asked you a question, I am waiting for an answer. I assume it was yes but I want an aswer.

Well I didn't get my answers......If a student is capable of getting 400 points then of course I will push him/her to achieve it, in my subject anyway. That is my job. I have worked extra hours to get weaker students grades in my subject which they would have thought they were incapable of. What is wrong with that? I don't get the logic behind your argument.

Chaotic_Forces

rebel10 wrote: »

Well I didn't get my answers......If a student is capable of getting 400 points then of course I will push him/her to achieve it, in my subject anyway. That is my job. I have worked extra hours to get weaker students grades in my subject which they would have thought they were incapable of. What is wrong with that? I don't get the logic behind your argument.

The logic is that we are all capable (unless we have a learning disability, but that's not the point) if given the proper amount of push and workload. That's the problem, students are programmed to be robots and just do things without saying.
That's why I can't stand teachers like you, you seem to think the world revolves around what you think and don't seem to understand that most students shouldn't be told "you can do more if you put in more effort" when they're nearly reduced to tears from the already overloaded amount of studying and homework they do; they're still expected (not motivated) to do more. It's never enough for teachers and it never is because you're dealing with a horrible system.

rebel10

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

The logic is that we are all capable (unless we have a learning disability, but that's not the point) if given the proper amount of push and workload. That's the problem, students are programmed to be robots and just do things without saying.
That's why I can't stand teachers like you, you seem to think the world revolves around what you think and don't seem to understand that most students shouldn't be told "you can do more if you put in more effort" when they're nearly reduced to tears from the already overloaded amount of studying and homework they do; they're still expected (not motivated) to do more. It's never enough for teachers and it never is because you're dealing with a horrible system.

My students have never been reduced to tears. If they were under that much pressure, believe me i'd know. If you feel like that, maybe sort it out with your own teachers, but please stop generalising and name calling. You have never met me, you have never had me as a teacher, you have mis-quoted me throughout these last few pages in an attempt to prove some point. I have yet to get an answer from you regarding my questions about your mis-quotes. I have been polite to you, could you not do me the same? Whatever issues you have with teachers take to your teachers. My students have never had issues with me because they know I care about them and their future too much. If one of my higher level students gets an A1 in the summer, I will be delighted for him, likewise if one of my weaker students gets a C1, I will be delighted for him because they will have achieved what they wanted to achieve and what they have worked so hard for for the last 6 years of their lives.

Chaotic_Forces

rebel10 wrote: »

My students have never been reduced to tears. If they were under that much pressure, believe me i'd know. If you feel like that, maybe sort it out with your own teachers, but please stop generalising and name calling. You have never met me, you have never had me as a teacher, you have mis-quoted me throughout these last few pages in an attempt to prove some point. I have yet to get an answer from you regarding my questions about your mis-quotes. I have been polite to you, could you not do me the same? Whatever issues you have with teachers take to your teachers. My students have never had issues with me because they know I care about them and their future too much. If one of my higher level students gets an A1 in the summer, I will be delighted for him, likewise if one of my weaker students gets a C1, I will be delighted for him because they will have achieved what they wanted to achieve and what they have worked so hard for for the last 6 years of their lives.

I finished school several years ago. I also noticed that the transition from the JC to the LC is where the aspect of "STUDY HARDER" comes from. You might give a damn but you're still blind! Unless you constantly make sure no student is overloaded by all the teachers combined, you still have a lot to learn. You're probably a well liked teacher but you're coming across with a superiority complex still.

Nevertheless, you proved what I thought about you. So I won't bother with this talk again.

Chaotic_Forces

Sitec wrote: »

Sounds to me like you got a bad leaving cert by not putting the work in and decided to hold a grudge on the system.

Sounds to me like you have no idea what you're on about. It's been proven time and time again the current system is a failure. Besides, if I didn't put in the effort why would I hold a grudge against the wrong thing?

rebel10

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I finished school several years ago. I also noticed that the transition from the JC to the LC is where the aspect of "STUDY HARDER" comes from. You might give a damn but you're still blind! Unless you constantly make sure no student is overloaded by all the teachers combined, you still have a lot to learn. You're probably a well liked teacher but you're coming across with a superiority complex still.

Nevertheless, you proved what I thought about you. So I won't bother with this talk again.

Once again, can you please point out in my posts where i have given you this impression? How can you say in one sentence that I am probably a well liked teacher and then in the next claim I have a superiority complex? I am just asking for the reasons why you have called me names throughout, and yet have failed to provide me with the reasons except for general accusations.

FGR

I don't see what's so bad about the Leaving Cert. I mean the option was always there to repeat if you didn't get the points you wanted. It's not exactly something you'd hang up on a wall though like you'd see with High School Diplomas in the US and the like.

Shame, too..as the long form LC doesn't look too bad..!

deathrider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUASiDg-kg4

Oh, come on! You were all thinking it...

marxcoo

I get the impression the thread has gone from arguing that the LC is a redundant system to just an forum for whinging about all the "hard work" you have to do in the LC and how its "not fair"... welcome to the world, in order to get what you want you're going to have to work hard and shock horror sometimes do things you don't love doing. LC is a walk in the park compared to college and work

partyatmygaff

marxcoo wrote: »

I get the impression the thread has gone from arguing that the LC is a redundant system to just an forum for whinging about all the "hard work" you have to do in the LC and how its "not fair"... welcome to the world, in order to get what you want you're going to have to work hard and shock horror sometimes do things you don't love doing. LC is a walk in the park compared to college and work

With hindsight everything seems easy. It's not how easy it seems now but how easy it seemed at the time.

marxcoo

partyatmygaff wrote: »

With hindsight everything seems easy. It's not how easy it seems now but how easy it seemed at the time.

oh I agree but no, I genuinely feel that the LC isn't that hard. It needs to be challenging obviously otherwise it defeats the purpose

partyatmygaff

partyatmygaff wrote: »

With hindsight everything seems easy. It's not how easy it seems now but how easy it seemed at the time.

easy enough so

Fluorescence

partyatmygaff wrote: »

With hindsight everything seems easy. It's not how easy it seems now but how easy it seemed at the time.

It was a cake-walk compared to my college course. 18 months to learn the coursework is so much time compared to the 12 weeks you get per college module (which has arguably as much to cover as much, if not sometimes more than the Leaving Cert).

It's very easy in comparison

PictureFrame

I don't think it's a form of torture at all. I'm in 5th year, leave school at 7am, finish school at 3.45, start evening studying between 4.00-6.00, come home and do my own study from 8-9.30..

That's an average of 7 hours in school + 3.5 hours study
= 10.5 a day x5=
52.5 hours a week and an additional 4/5 hours per weekend = 57.5 hours..

It is tough, but it has to be done unfortunately.. :P

Chaotic_Forces

PictureFrame wrote: »

I don't think it's a form of torture at all. I'm in 5th year, leave school at 7am, finish school at 3.45, start evening studying between 4.00-6.00, come home and do my own study from 8-9.30..

That's an average of 7 hours in school + 3.5 hours study
= 10.5 a day x5=
52.5 hours a week and an additional 4/5 hours per weekend = 57.5 hours..

It is tough, but it has to be done unfortunately.. :P

The amount of hours working full time is 39 hours per week.

Aoifey!

PictureFrame wrote: »

I don't think it's a form of torture at all. I'm in 5th year, leave school at 7am, finish school at 3.45, start evening studying between 4.00-6.00, come home and do my own study from 8-9.30..

That's an average of 7 hours in school + 3.5 hours study
= 10.5 a day x5=
52.5 hours a week and an additional 4/5 hours per weekend = 57.5 hours..

It is tough, but it has to be done unfortunately.. :P

Seems a bit much for 5th year? I did maybe an hours homework a night in 5th year, if even that.

Chuchoter

PictureFrame wrote: »

I don't think it's a form of torture at all. I'm in 5th year, leave school at 7am, finish school at 3.45, start evening studying between 4.00-6.00, come home and do my own study from 8-9.30..

That's an average of 7 hours in school + 3.5 hours study
= 10.5 a day x5=
52.5 hours a week and an additional 4/5 hours per weekend = 57.5 hours..

It is tough, but it has to be done unfortunately.. :P

3.5 hours in 5th year is excessive...

Chaotic_Forces

Actually, depending on the subjects and amount of work given, 3.5 hours is short.

Aoifey!

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Actually, depending on the subjects and amount of work given, 3.5 hours is short.

If we were talking about 6th year, I might agree. But in 5th year I'd say 2 hours a night would be plenty. Some nights you might get a lot of work and it would take longer, but certainly not every night.

Chaotic_Forces

Aoifey! wrote: »

If we were talking about 6th year, I might agree. But in 5th year I'd say 2 hours a night would be plenty. Some nights you might get a lot of work and it would take longer, but certainly not every night.

In fairness, English and Irish do take up a while. Mainly since there's a huge gap in the quality of writing that's expected. Plus all the reading and then having to memorize it. Two hours should be plenty but it can differ from school to school and even class to class. What might be expected for maths in one class, can vary around the country.

partyatmygaff

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Actually, depending on the subjects and amount of work given, 3.5 hours is short.

3.5 hours IS excessive for fifth year.

I got 500ish points in my fifth year Summer exams by studying (Lightly) two weeks before the exams. All I did throughout the year was my homework and not much else. So long as you pay attention in class and do the work you're expected to do properly there is no need to spend 3.5 hours studying in fifth year.

Aoifey!

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

In fairness, English and Irish do take up a while. Mainly since there's a huge gap in the quality of writing that's expected. Plus all the reading and then having to memorize it. Two hours should be plenty but it can differ from school to school and even class to class. What might be expected for maths in one class, can vary around the country.

Yeah, it does differ greatly from school to school, and class to class. I did Accounting for the Leaving and each nught we'd have an hours worth of work in it (if you did it right).

Still though, generally speaking I'd say 2 hours would be an average for 5th year. And in 5th year it's just homework you'd be doing rather than study. But then again, i did Ordinary Irish, Maths and German so maybe those would be different at Higher level.

Chaotic_Forces

Aoifey! wrote: »

Yeah, it does differ greatly from school to school, and class to class. I did Accounting for the Leaving and each nught we'd have an hours worth of work in it (if you did it right).

Still though, generally speaking I'd say 2 hours would be an average for 5th year. And in 5th year it's just homework you'd be doing rather than study. But then again, i did Ordinary Irish, Maths and German so maybe those would be different at Higher level.

Higher Irish is annoyingly difficult since it's taught the same way as English which means "lots of short stories, poems and a book to learn about!". :pac:

Accounting would take a while, though. I remember doing the accounting part of business studies for the juniour cert and it was so damn long.

I suppose if you're just taking homework into account... then yeah two hours would be fine but you have to also consider that some students are stuck with bad teachers and either have to take up grinds or hope to learn themselves at home.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

3.5 hours IS excessive for fifth year.

I got 500ish points in my fifth year Summer exams by studying (Lightly) two weeks before the exams. All I did throughout the year was my homework and not much else. So long as you pay attention in class and do the work you're expected to do properly there is no need to spend 3.5 hours studying in fifth year.

Summer exams? As in the ones made out by the teachers? Yes, there's a reason you did good in those, you had them based on what you were taught and not the entire subject (unless you were taught all six subjects fully in 5th year but... I doubt it's possible).