The Leaving Cert Is A Form Of Slavery

UsernameInUse

Wouldn't you agree?

Think about it: We're put through a desperate school system that is found lacking. Then they discriminate against us by stopping us from earning a living because of a bogus points system. Surely, we can come up with a more humane system than this.

For example, we should do away with the Leaving Cert and let the individual colleges set their own standards. If you don't get the points you quite need to do, say medicine for example, you can pay to do it regardless of points.
This is a far better system. Most of us don't even realise what we're interested in doing, nor take it seriously enough until our twenties.

Leaving Cert is a form of slavery....yay or nay?

admiralofthefleet

students need to wait til they are working full time and look back at how easy school was before thinking the leaving is difficult

Knasher

UsernameInUse wrote: »

If you don't get the points you quite need to do, say medicine for example, you can pay to do it regardless of points.
This is a far better system.

Yes that doesn't sound like it would unfairly benefit the rich at all.

FatherLen

nay. its grand.

chin_grin

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Leaving Cert is a form of slavery....yay or nay?

Ok.............ok. Right. Hear me out. Guys. The schools right? No. Really. The schools are all in it together right? And they pump us full of this stuff called 'misinformation'. No.............listen. And then they sit us in a hall and make us compete with each other to see who has put more of this misinformation in their heads. Guys. Listen. An then, right, then the ones who have been brainwashed become leaders of countries. No! Listen. Seriously.

emeraldstar

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

students need to wait til they are working full time and look back at how easy school was before thinking the leaving is difficult

Work over school any day. (School is also full time anyway.)

Noo

Cant say I would be happy to have a student doc cut me open who only got 100 on the LC and paid for his medical place. I'd rather have someone with the intellectual capability to complete a medical degree.

Collie D

If I ever need heart surgery I want the guy with 600 points cutting me open, not the one whose daddy had a big bacnk account

UsernameInUse

Knasher wrote: »

Yes that doesn't sound like it would unfairly benefit the rich at all.

The poor can save too?!

Besides, college fees come down historically under this system.

UsernameInUse

Noo wrote: »

Cant say I would be happy to have a student doc cut me open who only got 100 on the LC and paid for his medical place. I'd rather have someone with the intellectual capability to complete a medical degree.

Collie D wrote: »

If I ever need heart surgery I want the guy with 600 points cutting me open, not the one whose daddy had a big bacnk account

Well, they obviously wouldn't have a medicine degree if they didn't complete the exam, now would they? Daddy would just be throwing his cash in the bin.

Mena

Collie D wrote: »

If I ever need heart surgery I want the guy with 600 points cutting me open, not the one whose daddy had a big bacnk account

They both have to go through and pass the same courses/exams/tests so that really makes no difference.

Collie D

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Well, they obviously wouldn't have a medicine degree if they didn't complete the exam, now would they? Daddy would just be throwing his cash in the bin.

But you're still rewarding the rich kids over the ones who worked hard. Most of my friends would never have gone to third level if fees were introduced. Important lesson that you won;t learn in life is that daddy's cheque-book won;t get you through life. A bit of work and brains won;t kill you

Noo

Re-read the post- student doc! theyre all around in the hospitals and may not have completed exams yet. I'd rather have the brighter spark rooting around my insides!

Logical Fallacy

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Wouldn't you agree?

Think about it: We're put through a desperate school system that is found lacking. Then they discriminate against us by stopping us from earning a living because of a bogus points system. Surely, we can come up with a more humane system than this.

For example, we should do away with the Leaving Cert and let the individual colleges set their own standards. If you don't get the points you quite need to do, say medicine for example, you can pay to do it regardless of points.
This is a far better system. Most of us don't even realise what we're interested in doing, nor take it seriously enough until our twenties.

Leaving Cert is a form of slavery....yay or nay?

lol, the Leaving Cert is a piece of piss.

I really like how you advocate a system where people don't really need to work to achieve, they can just pay there way up the ladder.

Scuid Mhór

I'm dreading the Leaving Cert but I'm not gonna say it's a euphemism for slavery anytime soon...

UsernameInUse

Collie D wrote: »

But you're still rewarding the rich kids over the ones who worked hard. Most of my friends would never have gone to third level if fees were introduced. Important lesson that you won;t learn in life is that daddy's cheque-book won;t get you through life. A bit of work and brains won;t kill you

It isn't rewarding the rich kids over the poor ones...

The fact is, education isn't free for your friends. That money came from somewhere - mostly out of poor peoples pockets who probably don't have kids in college themselves. There is no equality in that system. If your friends want to go to college and get on in life, then they shouldn't expect others to pay for them.

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Think about it: We're put through a desperate school system that is found lacking.

It's only lacking if you're thick as two planks.

Knasher

I do think that the leaving cert (and especially the science parts) puts way too much emphasis on remembering stuff over actually understanding it. I remember one teacher in specific who just had us memorize all the answers to the last 10 years papers because there wasn't all that much variation in the questions. And of course you always have the teachers who leave out sections because it came up last year and is therefore unlikely to come up again.

Maybe is just me but I quickly discarded all the information that I memorized as soon as I put down my pen. What I actually remember are the parts from the teachers who actually cared enough to make us understand what we were learning.

Nodin

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Wouldn't you agree?

Think about it: We're put through a desperate school system that is found lacking. Then they discriminate against us by stopping us from earning a living because of a bogus points system. Surely, we can come up with a more humane system than this.

For example, we should do away with the Leaving Cert and let the individual colleges set their own standards. If you don't get the points you quite need to do, say medicine for example, you can pay to do it regardless of points.
This is a far better system. Most of us don't even realise what we're interested in doing, nor take it seriously enough until our twenties.

Leaving Cert is a form of slavery....yay or nay?

If you think the LC is slavery, christ help ye when you start working....

steddyeddy

The leaving cert is tough but it isnt slavery. The problem I have with the leaving cert is that it doesnt encourage learning it encourages people to pass.

Logical Fallacy

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

I'm dreading the Leaving Cert but I'm not gonna say it's a euphemism for slavery anytime soon...

You'll be grand. Just get the head down and put the work in and you'll fly through it.

Best tip that someone gave me was to know what you need to get from it and how you can achieve that. Going into the LC i was doing Honours level Maths, English,Irish,French,Biology,Geography and Business Studies. I actually didn't need all that many points for the course i wanted so i dropped the honours Irish and French and focused on the easier (for me subjects).

Not having to worry about those two extra Honours Level papers really allowed me to focus on the Honours subjects i knew i could excel at.

4 Honours A's later i was laughing.

UsernameInUse

Everybody in this thread is completely missing the point.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the Leaving being difficult or 'it's harder when you start working in real life'. The problem is that it restricts people from doing what they want to do in life. It's a case of human freedom - if people want to go to the best school, pay for it. Live your dream.

Logical Fallacy

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Everybody in this thread is completely missing the point.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the Leaving being difficult or 'it's harder when you start working in real life'. The problem is that it restricts people from doing what they want to do in life. It's a case of human freedom - if people want to go to the best school, pay for it. Live your dream.

What the ****e are you talking about?

"It restricts people from doing what they want to do"....oh boo hoo!!!! Work hard, get your course. Easy.

digme

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Everybody in this thread is completely missing the point.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the Leaving being difficult or 'it's harder when you start working in real life'. The problem is that it restricts people from doing what they want to do in life. It's a case of human freedom - if people want to go to the best school, pay for it. Live your dream.

I think you go to school to restrict your learning to be honest about it.
The un-eduction system is what it should be called.

digme

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

What the ****e are you talking about?

"It restricts people from doing what they want to do"....oh boo hoo!!!! Work hard, get your course. Easy.

People have different natural talents,not everyone should be measured
by what they can remember by reading some book.

Scuid Mhór

UsernameInUse wrote: »

if people want to go to the best school, pay for it. Live your dream.

But kids in poverty get to stick with their nightmares, yeah?

Fremen

We're a small country, and we have a limited number of universities, each of which has a limited number of places.

If you believe the following, you're logically constrained to support some sort of points system (or system of individual interviews, which amounts to the same thing):

1/ Education should be affordable for everyone.

2/ All other things equal, if person A has better grades than person B, person A should get first choice of courses.

Learning compared to slavery, great. That's wonderful.

Excuse me while I weep for humanity
:rolleyes:

Tubsandtiles

Blast the leaving cert with piss ?

Knasher

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The poor can save too?!

Besides, college fees come down historically under this system.

Really? Historically where has it been implemented. Because the only outcome I can see for your system is that the only people who get into the very best schools are the upper echelon of society because they are the only ones who can afford it. Additionally courses that have extremely high point entries will end up being filled by the rich (how could they not).

In the end the only people who would get to "live their dreams" are the rich.

Logical Fallacy

digme wrote: »

People have different natural talents,not everyone should be measured
by what they can remember by reading some book.

And there are many different avenues for further education after school.

What do you think college is? In a good college it's what you can remember from reading some books combined with developing independant thought around the subject matter....in a bad college it's what you can remember from reading some books.

Pretty much exactly the same as Secondary Schools.

Fremen

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The problem is that it restricts people from doing what they want to do in life. It's a case of human freedom - if people want to go to the best school, pay for it.

You still have to restrict someone - not everyone can do the same thing. All you're saying is that universities should restrict poor people from doing what they want to do instead of restricting dumb people.

That's pretty distasteful tbh.

wild_cat

Meh, not really if you actually open a book you'll be grand. I didn't give two ****s about it as I was meant to be heading to art college, did basically nothing and came away with 300 points. I can only imagine what points I would have received if I studied the way my friends did.

Got into Art College, hated it to the core and now I spend my day learning programming languages. Had I achieved higher points I probably would have have done Arts or something of the like, but my points limited my choices and now I'm doing a degree in something that will actually get me a job in this country. Just play the system and your grand.

Overheal

Wow, they really have done a terrible job educating you if you equate the Leaving Cert to Slavery.

digme

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

And there are many different avenues for further education after school.

What do you think college is? In a good college it's what you can remember from reading some books combined with developing independant thought around the subject matter....in a bad college it's what you can remember from reading some books.

Pretty much exactly the same as Secondary Schools.

Not everyone is going to make it to college,i know some people do apprenticeships,but shouldn't that also be an option from first year on in secondary school?The education system is totally wrong.

There are new types of schools open in America which deals with what I'm talking about.They actually nurture the individual and figure out what they excel at very early on.

Listen to this girl.She can convey it better than myself.

School is not all that it can be,it stunts your growth.

“We could encourage the best qualities of youthfulness – curiosity, adventure, resilience, the capacity for surprising insight simply by being more flexible about time, texts, and tests, by introducing kids into truly competent adults, and by giving each student what autonomy he or she needs in order to take a risk every now and then. But we don't do that.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M4tdMsg3ts

Knasher

One simple change I'd absolutely love to see is if your points were weighted by the course you were applying for. So for example if you applying for medicine then if you took biology it would count for more than lets say french even if you got the same mark in both. Realistically it would mean that the only way to get medicine is to take and do well in biology, but I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

I'd also like to do away with the extra marks for doing subjects in Irish. I can't think of a reason why they should have one subject where they will get very high marks (after all if they are good enough to do everything else in Irish, will they really get less than an A in Irish itself?) and then get a leg up in every other subject as well. Kinda wish I was lucky enough to be born in the gaeltacht.

mconigol

I did the leaving cert a few years ago. Funnily enough I'm doing ok

Stop moaning OP

Corruptedmorals

Nothing stopping someone from dropping out and taking an apprenticeship programme- in fact, this was all the rage in my school (2004 Junior Cert). The Transition year and LCA programmes are designed to develop what people want to do, the LCA in particular is designed to encourage non-traditional academic routes. Both have to do work experience. My school also did a Safe Pass course, several actually. Schools are NOT forcing you to do the Leaving Cert.

There's a big gap between the Leaving Cert and university, they need to encourage understanding more than memorising as many people flounder in first year. Other than that, the Leaving cert is a pretty good system. The A-levels are probably better in enouraging deeper understanding, but I think they're far too narrow- 3 subjects??maybe 4?? and then they have that predicted grades and personal statements wankerism. The LC is far from slavery- if you can't get the points, that's not the sytem's fault.

briano

emeraldstar wrote: »

...(School is also full time anyway.)

ahahahahaahahahaha

Sorry, I only got that far, brilliant. You have made my day.

sensibleken

If you think the leaving cert is slavery then i dont fancy your chances at passing history kid.

smokedeels

I've a completely different attitude towards education than I did while I was in secondary school, I'm not sure how I would approach the LC now but comparing education to slavery is awful.

Napper Hawkins

CreepingDeath wrote: »

It's only lacking if you're thick as two planks.

The fact that there are people who believe that makes it easier to understand why this country is ****ed.

Rote learning is not an accurate measure of intelligence, it simply serves as a way to separate those who are capable of studying things they don't care about (the obedient) from those who are not.

Like I.Q. tests, the only thing a high score tells you is that the person is good at I.Q. tests.

There are plenty of rich, successful folk who made a complete arse of school just like there are plenty of incarcerated or homeless people who did ok or even excelled.

That said, I do think the LC is a good thing, but it needs to improve drastically. Not thinking exactly like the majority is far too often mistaken for a lack of intelligence and it's scary to think how many people have fallen through the cracks because of a flawed system.

Spunge

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Wouldn't you agree?

Think about it: We're put through a desperate school system that is found lacking. Then they discriminate against us by stopping us from earning a living because of a bogus points system. Surely, we can come up with a more humane system than this.

For example, we should do away with the Leaving Cert and let the individual colleges set their own standards. If you don't get the points you quite need to do, say medicine for example, you can pay to do it regardless of points.
This is a far better system. Most of us don't even realise what we're interested in doing, nor take it seriously enough until our twenties.

Leaving Cert is a form of slavery....yay or nay?

http://levistey0.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/sloth_shades.gif

Spudmonkey

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Everybody in this thread is completely missing the point.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the Leaving being difficult or 'it's harder when you start working in real life'. The problem is that it restricts people from doing what they want to do in life. It's a case of human freedom - if people want to go to the best school, pay for it. Live your dream.

Bollix. The Leaving Cert partitions students so that the bright ones can do the technical things and to keep the not so bright from doing them. Frankly I don't want some thick youngfella/youngwan with a big wad of their parents cash being my doctor.

Even at that the Leaving Cert is a failed entity. It has been progressively easier over the past 20 years to the point where anyone can do well.

briano

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The problem is that it restricts people from doing what they want to do in life.

I take it back. I got this far.

Every single time working or graduates or employment comes up, without fail a mention will be made of how people these days have a "sense of entitlement", although I have yet to see it in the wild. That was, yet to see it , up until I read this post.

It's not stopping people from doing what they want to do; it's making people prove how much they want it. Want to do medicine? Prove it by getting 600 points. Want to be an engineer? Prove it by getting As in Higher Maths. Want to do anything in life, even after you get out of the "full time slavery hell" that is second level education? You are going to have to work for it and work hard.

Want people to imagine that all of your posts are one step away from saying "but that's not fair" in a really whiney voice? Well, actually, you have that one pretty well covered.

Mike 1972

Knasher wrote: »

One simple change I'd absolutely love to see is if your points were weighted by the course you were applying for. So for example if you applying for medicine then if you took biology it would count for more than lets say french even if you got the same mark in both. Realistically it would mean that the only way to get medicine is to take and do well in biology, but I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

I agree 100% and I did mention it to the head of LIT onetime who also agreed it was an excellent idea in theory however for equality reasons they are unable to do it.

He gave an example of a hypothetical student from an all girls school wanting to do an engineering course not having physics as an option for the leaving cert at their school.

When I pointed out that it was a half arsed way of addressing the problem and what the state really needed to do was withdraw funding from schools which segregated on the basis of race, religion OR gender he told me I was preaching to the converted.

That was twenty years ago..........

admiralofthefleet

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

students need to wait til they are working full time and look back at how easy school was before thinking the leaving is difficult

I see students walking to school everyday on my way to work and it reminds me how glad I am that I dont have to go again.

Work >>>>>> school.

I'm always amazed at the amount of people claiming you have to do things the same way as everyone else/rote learning in the LC and then it transpires they themselves learned off essays for the LC English/Irish. Learned off essays, I'm still boggling at the idea.
There are plenty of opportunities to express yourself in the LC. You don't have to say the same thing as everyone else.

Knasher

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I agree 100% and I did mention it to the head of LIT onetime who also agreed it was an excellent idea in theory however for equality reasons they are unable to do it.

He gave an example of a hypothetical student from an all girls school wanting to do an engineering course not having physics as an option for the leaving cert at their school.

When I pointed out that it was a half arsed way of addressing the problem and what the state really needed to do was withdraw funding from schools which segregated on the basis of race, religion OR gender he told me I was preaching to the converted.

That was twenty years ago..........

Damn, I concede to your depressing point. It might be the sort of thing that would fix itself though, after all I doubt a school would like to get a reputation that if you attend there certain courses would be denied to you.

CD.

not even close to slavery.

if you don't do you homework you're not whipped, if you mitch, you foot isn't removed to stop you running away again.

there's nothing forcing you to stay after the junior cert really.

Mike 1972

Knasher wrote: »

I doubt a school would like to get a reputation that if you attend there certain courses would be denied to you.

Things have probably improved a bit since I left school but I would still imagine that Schools which offer the full range of leaving cert subjects are quite rare.

I wanted to do geography for the LC but I was told it wasnt going to be on offer as there wasnt enough demand and if I had a problem with it I could always go to another school.

As alwas the fact that this last suggestion was entirely impracticable was seemingly completly besides the point.