The Leaving Cert Is A Form Of Slavery

Chaotic_Forces

sock puppet wrote: »

You're in school about 7 months of the year. Hardly full time.

So 11.5 hours per day for five days for seven months = 1610 hours

39 hours per week for 50 weeks (52 weeks in a year, minus two weeks holiday) = 1950 hours

I don't think 340 hours a year is a major difference, it's only 5.6 hours.

marxcoo

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

If we actually had a proper system to permantly kick certain kids out of school, we wouldn't need more teachers. The number of students that want to learn is a lot less than those that just go there because they're "forced".

That's crazy. If every child was given up on at that stage, it would be a very sad state of affairs for the country as a whole. Have you ever encountered someone who was a reluctant learner in school who went on to have good career. I know plenty of them and if someone hadn't been on their back to keep going to school, they wouldn't be in the position they are now. Teenagers aren't fully developed thinkers, that's why sometimes they have to be forced to do things for their own good. Developing a system where we have a high level of school dropouts is hardly the way forward.

maninasia

Collie D wrote: »

If I ever need heart surgery I want the guy with 600 points cutting me open, not the one whose daddy had a big bacnk account

You mean the guy who was proven to be good at regurgitating facts will be a better surgeon than the the other guy, why?

andrew

maninasia wrote: »

You mean the guy who was proven to be good at regurgitating facts will be a better surgeon than the the other guy, why?

You mean proven to be good at applying him/herself, working toward a goal, and taking in and acquiring a significant amount of knowledge. Yeah, chances are that guy's going to make a better medical student.

maninasia

You never thought he will retain TOO much information? What about his other skills, you know surgery is very complex. First of all you have to do listen to people. Then have an ability for critical thinking. Patience. Dexteriy. Focus. Stamina. An ability to co-ordinate teams of people. Planning. An excellent understanding of medicine and the human body. Finally last but not least you should have the best interests of the patient at heart.
What's 600 points at the leaving cert got to do with that?
Ever think that setting the level at such a maximum actually artificially selects for one type of people and also sets the bar too early in life. Having other routes to doc/surgeon is an excellent idea if you think about it as it allows more diversity.

Chaotic_Forces

marxcoo wrote: »

That's crazy. If every child was given up on at that stage, it would be a very sad state of affairs for the country as a whole. Have you ever encountered someone who was a reluctant learner in school who went on to have good career. I know plenty of them and if someone hadn't been on their back to keep going to school, they wouldn't be in the position they are now. Teenagers aren't fully developed thinkers, that's why sometimes they have to be forced to do things for their own good. Developing a system where we have a high level of school dropouts is hardly the way forward.

There's a difference between having little confidance and just going to school to "have a laugh" by wrecking it for those that willingly want to go there.

By "certain kids", I mean the kid that just go school because they have to, the ones that disrupt classes, that argue with teachers constantly just because they're bored. Those should be kicked out.

Sitec wrote: »

At least the lad with 600 points in able to retain information. That would be fairly vital being a surgeon no??

I'd imagine I'd want the guy that has a proven track record, not someone who can retain information for two years. If you asked a lot of students to sit the same test in a year's time, they will be very lucky to do well (unless they have being prepared for it). To most, the leaving is just "learn things for two years, forget things afterwards".

maninasia

maninasia wrote: »

You never thought he will retain TOO much information? What about his other skills, you know surgery is very complex. First of all you have to do listen to people. Then have an ability for critical thinking. Patience. Dexteriy. Focus. Stamina. An ability to co-ordinate teams of people. Planning. An excellent understanding of medicine and the human body. Finally last but not least you should have the best interests of the patient at heart.
What's 600 points at the leaving cert got to do with that?

I can't believe you're trying to argue that ignorance will make a better surgeon.

andrew

maninasia wrote: »

You never thought he will retain TOO much information? What about his other skills, you know surgery is very complex. First of all you have to do listen to people. Then have an ability for critical thinking. Patience. Dexteriy. Focus. Stamina. An ability to co-ordinate teams of people. Planning. An excellent understanding of medicine and the human body. Finally last but not least you should have the best interests of the patient at heart.
What's 600 points at the leaving cert got to do with that?

I'm not arguing that the LC is entirely relevant to what it takes to be a doctor. But it (+HPAT) still more relevant than any other feasible mechanism for allocating scarce medicine places.

Chaotic_Forces

maninasia wrote: »

You never thought he will retain TOO much information? What about his other skills, you know surgery is very complex. First of all you have to do listen to people. Then have an ability for critical thinking. Patience. Dexteriy. Focus. Stamina. An ability to co-ordinate teams of people. Planning. An excellent understanding of medicine and the human body. Finally last but not least you should have the best interests of the patient at heart.
What's 600 points at the leaving cert got to do with that?

It means he's a good robot and can remember things for two years. That's all. If it was a case were he was good with his ends and had good dexterity or something and happened to get 600 points too, sure, I'd be happy to have him operate moreso than the guy who barely scrapped a pass. But showing an ability for sugery is far more important than showing you can retain a few books of knowledge for a test in two years.

marxcoo

maninasia wrote: »

You never thought he will retain TOO much information? What about his other skills, you know surgery is very complex. First of all you have to do listen to people. Then have an ability for critical thinking. Patience. Dexteriy. Focus. Stamina. An ability to co-ordinate teams of people. Planning. An excellent understanding of medicine and the human body. Finally last but not least you should have the best interests of the patient at heart.
What's 600 points at the leaving cert got to do with that?

The points reflect the demand for the course. THe specific skills are picked up in college, internship etc, obviously not in LC. If someone wanted to test the theory, put 100 students who got 600 points in the leaving through a medical degree and put another 100 students who got 300 points through the same degree, I'd imagine the results would speak for themselves.

marxcoo

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

By "certain kids", I mean the kid that just go school because they have to, the ones that disrupt classes, that argue with teachers constantly just because they're bored. Those should be kicked out.

And what happens to those kids do you think? just as a matter of interest?

maninasia

andrew wrote: »

I'm not arguing that the LC is entirely relevant to what it takes to be a doctor. But it (+HPAT) still more relevant than any other feasible mechanism for allocating scarce medicine places.

Something wrong with that then isn't there.

andrew

maninasia wrote: »

Something wrong with that then isn't there.

There's never going to be a perfect way to allocate college places. I think the leaving cert is a pretty good mechanism; what's fundamentally wrong about it? And what do you think would be a better system?

maninasia

bluewolf wrote: »

I can't believe you're trying to argue that ignorance will make a better surgeon.

Just showing your own ignorance there friend, no one said that having a good academic background was not a good idea. Think about it, it's a pretty messed up system you need a 'perfect' score in regurgitating a set curriculum to do something that has hardly any relation to the things being measured. What about interest/passion/good will/overall social ability/thinking ability/creativity/dexterity?
Just shows up the poor way Ireland is run from bottom up aswell as top down.

Chaotic_Forces

marxcoo wrote: »

And what happens to those kids do you think? just as a matter of interest?

The ones that are scum and shouldn't be let into school? I don't care, they deserve what they get.

Chaotic_Forces

andrew wrote: »

There's never going to be a perfect way to allocate college places. I think the leaving cert is a pretty good mechanism; what's fundamentally wrong about it? And what do you think would be a better system?

It's the point system that's the problem, mostly. Even if it was a case that I got an A1 in higher level biology and wanted to be a surgeon. Surely a better judge of my skill as a potential surgeon would be to examine mee over a few months and see how well I could do the job instead of saying "get 500+ points, get at least Bs or higher in all subjects you take and then we'll talk".

maninasia

andrew wrote: »

There's never going to be a perfect way to allocate college places. I think the leaving cert is a pretty good mechanism; what's fundamentally wrong about it? And what do you think would be a better system?

It's not a good mechanism for selecting for the right people. It's a symptom of an education system from the 19th century. The Irish education system is poor, like many worldwide, just learning and regurgitating stuff and an exam at the end. Finland and Scandinavia would be a lot better.

marxcoo

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

The ones that are scum and shouldn't be let into school? I don't care, they deserve what they get.

That's nice. 15/16 year old scum cos they are messing in class.

Chaotic_Forces

marxcoo wrote: »

That's nice. 15/16 year old scum cos they are messing in class.

You go to school to learn, not to fu*king wreck the class for the people that want to learn, slow down the entire learning process. They are scum, they go there purely because if they didn't, they;d probably be forced to find work or do a FÁS course or something and they know well that it's literally impossible to be thrown out of most schools. So they just go there "for the laugh".

andrew

maninasia wrote: »

It's not a good mechanism for selecting for the right people. It's a symptom of a an education system from the 19th century. The Irish education system is poor, like many worldwide, just learning and regurgitating stuff and an exam at the end. Finland and Scandinavia would be a lot better.

What about Scandinavia is better? How would it make for better selected doctors, etc., do you think?

maninasia

Project based education, more freedom. Even if it wasn't better (I've no clue if they have better docs or not), the point is if something is crap and outdated and does not fulfill it's role you should change it. A better way would be to open multiple routes to 'being a doctor', get a big pool of candidates and then later make it competitive between doctors to take a role, wouldn't you think? This is not only about the medical profession buy any profession really.

Chaotic_Forces

maninasia wrote: »

Project based education, more freedom. Even if it wasn't better (I've no clue if they have better docs or not), the point is if something is crap and outdated and does not fulfill it's role you should change it.

You realize trying to completely change the system means throwing teachers out of jobs while they learn new methods and the unions won't let that happen.
Also, how do you propse we re-invent things, in a realistic manner? It would take a few years and in that time, we'd have horrible education.

marxcoo

maninasia wrote: »

Project based education, more freedom. Even if it wasn't better (I've no clue if they have better docs or not), the point is if something is crap and outdated and does not fulfill it's role you should change it.

I agree that project based education could be more beneficial, their universities run on the same type of system as far as I know. However, that's not to say that the LC is a bad system as such,I still think it achieves most of what it sets out to achieve. I'd imagine that in second level, the students doing well on a points based system would still do well in a project based system, I think it would make more of a difference at third level.

maninasia

Just because something is not easy to change doesn't mean you shouldn't change it, right?
Anyway, life has a way of forcing change on people/countries/systems which don't change.

marxcoo

maninasia wrote: »

Project based education, more freedom. Even if it wasn't better (I've no clue if they have better docs or not), the point is if something is crap and outdated and does not fulfill it's role you should change it. A better way would be to open multiple routes to 'being a doctor', get a big pool of candidates and then later make it competitive between doctors to take a role, wouldn't you think? This is not only about the medical profession buy any profession really.

What about graduate medical degrees. Does that not provide a different route for people who didn't achieve the points in LC?

Chaotic_Forces

maninasia wrote: »

Just because something is not easy to change doesn't mean you shouldn't change it, right?
Anyway, life has a way of forcing change on people/countries/systems which don't change.

Generally speaking, you need to be nothing short of an expert on several subjects or be willing to spend two years doing very little beyond staying indoors studying 24/7 when you aren't in school to well points wise.

maninasia

marxcoo wrote: »

I agree that project based education could be more beneficial, their universities run on the same type of system as far as I know. However, that's not to say that the LC is a bad system as such,I still think it achieves most of what it sets out to achieve. I'd imagine that in second level, the students doing well on a points based system would still do well in a project based system, I think it would make more of a difference at third level.

I'm not setting out to argue with you and you've been gracious to see my point. I sincerely believe though that some people would really shine if allowed to follow their interests instead of the current approach. I did pretty well in secondary school but the thing I remember most ..sheer boredom of class everyday! I was bored because I couldn't follow my own interests or projects. The leaving cert offers one path but there should be multiple paths.
The OP has a point, the current system is like slavery (of a very mild sort) to people who are creative or want to do things differently. It forces you down this narrow corridor that only opens out when you get to the end of it (the LC exam) and then onto 3rd level. It's all so rigid. You are also stuck in a programmed path..1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th...should be able to jump ahead for some students.

maninasia

marxcoo wrote: »

What about graduate medical degrees. Does that not provide a different route for people who didn't achieve the points in LC?

Yes it does and it should have been implemented long-ago. Strange it took so long isn't it?

sock puppet

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

So 11.5 hours per day for five days for seven months = 1610 hours

39 hours per week for 50 weeks (52 weeks in a year, minus two weeks holiday) = 1950 hours

I don't think 340 hours a year is a major difference, it's only 5.6 hours.

Nah you absolutely do not need to do 11.5 hours of work per day for school. If you decided to do it then fair enough but don't pretend that the average or even the very hard working students put in anything close to those hours. I barely studied that much the week before the leaving cert ffs.

Chaotic_Forces

sock puppet wrote: »

Nah you absolutely do not need to do 11.5 hours of work per day for school. If you decided to do it then fair enough but don't pretend that the average or even the very hard working students put in anything close to those hours. I barely studied that much the week before the leaving cert ffs.

Actually it is around 11.5. 5 Hours would consist of homework and studying. An essay (with planning and brain storming and whatnot) usually takes at least 1.5 hours. Then you would have some maths which is somewhat short, maybe 20 minutes. Irish which can difference anywhere between twenty minutes and say... an hour for an essay. French/German/X language usually took me around 20 minutes. So far that's 4 subjects and 2.5 hours. Then you had to usually write out an experiment or answer detailed questions if you took a science subject which can take at least 30 minutes. So we're there for 3 hours.

So that's five subjects, not to mention most schools want you to take at least 6 subjects. Then you're to study. So no, if you want to do well, it does take around 11.5 hours.