The Leaving Cert Is A Form Of Slavery

marxcoo · 02-04-2011 04:56PM

maninasia wrote: »

Yes it does and it should have been implemented long-ago. Strange it took so long isn't it?

well for god sake, are we going to complain about the things that have been implemented now because they took too long. such a Irish thing to do

maninasia · 02-04-2011 04:57PM

No it just illustrates the very strong resistance to change, but then when change happens it's like..why didn't we do that before?

sock puppet · 02-04-2011 05:04PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Actually it is around 11.5. 5 Hours would consist of homework and studying. An essay (with planning and brain storming and whatnot) usually takes at least 1.5 hours. Then you would have some maths which is somewhat short, maybe 20 minutes. Irish which can difference anywhere between twenty minutes and say... an hour for an essay. French/German/X language usually took me around 20 minutes. So far that's 4 subjects and 2.5 hours. Then you had to usually write out an experiment or answer detailed questions if you took a science subject which can take at least 30 minutes. So we're there for 3 hours.

So that's five subjects, not to mention most schools want you to take at least 6 subjects. Then you're to study. So no, if you want to do well, it does take around 11.5 hours.

An essay does not take 1.5 hours. In fifth year maybe but by 6th year you really should be well able to plan and write one in 30-40 minutes. You wouldn't have homework for all your subjects every night either. As for study you don't really need to do any other than in the couple of months leading up to the Leaving Cert.

marxcoo · 02-04-2011 05:06PM

sock puppet wrote: »

An essay does not take 1.5 hours. In fifth year maybe but by 6th year you really should be well able to plan and write one in 30-40 minutes. You wouldn't have homework for all your subjects every night either. As for study you don't really need to do any other than in the couple of months leading up to the Leaving Cert.

That's a pretty rubbish essay you must be writing in 30 minutes!:P

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 05:09PM

sock puppet wrote: »

An essay does not take 1.5 hours. In fifth year maybe but by 6th year you really should be well able to plan and write one in 30-40 minutes. You wouldn't have homework for all your subjects every night either. As for study you don't really need to do any other than in the couple of months leading up to the Leaving Cert.

So within 40 minutes I should be able to plan one and write 4 A4 pages? Actually, with the exception of certain subjects (such as an eassy on a poet), most times we did get homework every day. I don't know what school you went to where you got away with doing a 40 minutes essay and only need to study for a couple of months. Maybe if you locked yourself away for those few months and did grinds, you'd do okay.

sock puppet · 02-04-2011 05:10PM

marxcoo wrote: »

That's a pretty rubbish essay you must be writing in 30 minutes!:P

It's the length of time you get in the exam. Well History anyway. In English you get a little longer I think.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 05:11PM

sock puppet wrote: »

It's the length of time you get in the exam. Well History anyway. In English you get a little longer I think.

Exactly. And what does that tell you about those tests? It tells me it's unreasonable expectations. I believe for history you have 4 essays to write for higher level?

sock puppet · 02-04-2011 05:22PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Exactly. And what does that tell you about those tests? It tells me it's unreasonable expectations. I believe for history you have 4 essays to write for higher level?

I don't think it's that unreasonable. I get a similar amount of time for answers now in college. Yep 4 essays:(. The exam is brutal but from what our teacher told us it used to be even worse. In the 90s I think they had 4 essays and also had to write out their research project in the exam itself whereas we submit it before.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 05:24PM

sock puppet wrote: »

I don't think it's that unreasonable. I get a similar amount of time for answers now in college. Yep 4 essays:(. The exam is brutal but from what our teacher told us it used to be even worse. In the 90s I think they had 4 essays and also had to write out their research project in the exam itself whereas we submit it before.

College is far different. In the leaving you're basically mastering six subjects because you study them with so much depth. In college you pick and choose two or 3 subjects (even in a general course, like science in general), it's far less to learn overall.

sock puppet · 02-04-2011 05:32PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

College is far different. In the leaving you're basically mastering six subjects because you study them with so much depth. In college you pick and choose two or 3 subjects (even in a general course, like science in general), it's far less to learn overall.

Well actually now that you mention it I do 6 subjects in college:pac:. They're from across three different schools as well so they're not all related. Not sure whether I think the workload in college is lighter. I'm only in 2nd year though.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 05:35PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Well actually now that you mention it I do 6 subjects in college:pac:. They're from across three different schools as well so they're not all related. Not sure whether I think the workload in college is lighter. I'm only in 2nd year though.

Yeah but aren't you learning for the sake of learning/to get into your field of choice rather than "choose some subjects you dislike the least, now learn them for 2 years"?

rebel10 · 02-04-2011 05:38PM

sock puppet wrote: »

I don't think it's that unreasonable. I get a similar amount of time for answers now in college. Yep 4 essays:(. The exam is brutal but from what our teacher told us it used to be even worse. In the 90s I think they had 4 essays and also had to write out their research project in the exam itself whereas we submit it before.

:eek: What? You write the research topic and submit it before the exam? Here was me learning off my essay on Sean O' Casey aswell as the 60 others we predicted to come up before the leaving many moons ago. I agree with you, if someone like me can manage to get a B1 in honours history for the leaving cert, back when it was slightly more demanding, then anyone can if they apply themselves.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 05:40PM

rebel10 wrote: »

:eek: What? You write the research topic and submit it before the exam? Here was me learning off my essay on Sean O' Casey aswell as the 60 others we predicted to come up before the leaving many moons ago. I agree with you, if someone like me can manage to get a B1 in honours history for the leaving cert, back when it was slightly more demanding, then anyone can if they apply themselves.

Okay, good for you getting a B1.

But here's the problem, that's just one subject out of 6. And (for some reason we're using sugery as an example

), you would need at least 500 points to get that course. So... do you see that it's not about "applying yourself". It's about an unfair system that favours robot like minds.

Misty Chaos · 02-04-2011 05:48PM

I haven't had time to read this entire topic but in regards to the Leaving cert being a form of slavery, I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

There are a lot of things that I disagree with in regards to the Leaving Cert but at the same time, its still a good system. All systems have flaws in them, regardless of whatever they are rote-learning based or project based.

What I'm more worried about is the fact that the LC is made out to be something much bigger than what it really is. Not saying its not still important but its not the be all and end all of everything. Its not the end of the world if you mess it up, not by a long shot! Besides, you can always repeat it or go the Post Secondary route if you want something bad enough ( which is what I did. )

Also, another thing I have issue with, while not directly related to the LC is having a really dreadful teacher for a core subject ( like say, Maths ) that p!ssed me off and caused me god knows how much extra stress back then. Thankfully, a really good grinds teacher got me out of that mess and I got a C in the end, delighted.

Apart from the Maths teacher, I don't really have any bad memories of any of other teachers. All of my teachers in subjects I did Honors in ( English, Art, Business and Home Economics ) were good and I did good for my level of ability in them all ( though I'll admit I was slightly disappointed with my English result but it was the only subject where I stayed the full time in for both papers and as there were both done on the same day, I was wrecked by the time I got the final section of paper 2! People complaining about having to the do the LC this year should be glad they don't have to do English Papers 1 & 2 on the same day anymore!)

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 05:52PM

Misty Chaos wrote: »

I haven't had time to read this entire topic but in regards to the Leaving cert being a form of slavery, I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

There's about 6 hours difference between 7 months of 11.5 hours of school per day (at five days a week) and working 39 hours per week for 50 weeks.

rebel10 · 02-04-2011 05:58PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Okay, good for you getting a B1.

But here's the problem, that's just one subject out of 6. And (for some reason we're using sugery as an example ), you would need at least 500 points to get that course. So... do you see that it's not about "applying yourself". It's about an unfair system that favours robot like minds.

Sorry, I don't agree with you. Unfortunately, everyday I come across students (I'm a teacher) who have a sense of entitlement when it comes to the L.C. Some believe if they study for an hour every night then they are justified a place on a course. Of course, you will always hear the students complaining about the 6 subjects they have to study for, but haven't we all done it, it is manageable. One of my school friends achieved 600 points in the L.C. back when I was in school. She wasn't a robot, but instead decided to give it her all. In fact she had her course chosen in 5th year, Arts in UCC. She could have sat back and just done the bare minimum, but she chose to push herself, which is something we all, myself included, avoid doing, and then give out about a system which is seemingly failing us.

sock puppet · 02-04-2011 05:59PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Yeah but aren't you learning for the sake of learning/to get into your field of choice rather than "choose some subjects you dislike the least, now learn them for 2 years"?

Sort of. I like college but when I look at any individual subject I can't say I find it particularly interesting.

rebel10 wrote: »

:eek: What? You write the research topic and submit it before the exam? Here was me learning off my essay on Sean O' Casey aswell as the 60 others we predicted to come up before the leaving many moons ago. I agree with you, if someone like me can manage to get a B1 in honours history for the leaving cert, back when it was slightly more demanding, then anyone can if they apply themselves.

Yep. Our teacher told us the average mark for it is something ridiculous like 18 out of 20.

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Okay, good for you getting a B1.

But here's the problem, that's just one subject out of 6. And (for some reason we're using sugery as an example ), you would need at least 500 points to get that course. So... do you see that it's not about "applying yourself". It's about an unfair system that favours robot like minds.

Well you could pick subjects such as Music, Art and Construction. Not only is there less rote learning involved but you get a good chunk of your marks before you sit the actual exams. Though I realise that if you want to get all A1s that particular combination of subjects might make it more difficult.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 05:59PM

rebel10 wrote: »

Sorry, I don't agree with you. Unfortunately, everyday I come across students (I'm a teacher) who have a sense of entitlement when it comes to the L.C. Some believe if they study for an hour every night then they are justified a place on a course. Of course, you will always hear the students complaining about the 6 subjects they have to study for, but haven't we all done it, it is manageable. One of my school friends achieved 600 points in the L.C. back when I was in school. She wasn't a robot, but instead decided to give it her all. In fact she had her course chosen in 5th year, Arts in UCC. She could have sat back and just done the bare minimum, but she chose to push herself, which is something we all, myself included, avoid doing, and then give out about a system which is seemingly failing us.

I sincerly doubt you're a teacher, or if you are, I'm glad I didn't have you.

You come across as a bully who enjoys talking down to people because they don't enjoy being robots.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 06:00PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Sort of. I like college but when I look at any individual subject I can't say I find it particularly interesting.

Well you could pick subjects such as Music, Art and Construction. Not only is there less rote learning involved but you get a good chunk of your marks before you sit the actual exams.

I get you but there is cleraly some sort of reason you're doing it. That would be what drives you to do well in it.

True but not all of those subjects are offered and worse still, you often have to pick one out of 3 subjects so if you get two subjects you want taking place at the same time, you just don't get the chance.

rebel10 · 02-04-2011 06:38PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I sincerly doubt you're a teacher, or if you are, I'm glad I didn't have you.

You come across as a bully who enjoys talking down to people because they don't enjoy being robots.

Excuse me, where have i come across as a bully?

All I have said is it is manageable and that like me, many people avoid pushing themselves and then complain when they don't receive the points they feel they are entitled to. When did I talk down to anyone? And when did I say I expect everyone to act like robots?
Please take the time to re-read my post and tell me where I have given you these impressions or is it just the case that you complain if somebody disagrees with you. Unfortunately for you, it is something you have to accept and not shout bully at anyone who offers a difference in opinion.

rebel10 · 02-04-2011 06:46PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Well you could pick subjects such as Music, Art and Construction. Not only is there less rote learning involved but you get a good chunk of your marks before you sit the actual exams. Though I realise that if you want to get all A1s that particular combination of subjects might make it more difficult.

I would avoid Art if it is rote learning you are avoiding. There is a huge amount of learning involved in the subject. Plus it is the hardest subject to achieve an A1 in.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 06:48PM

rebel10 wrote: »

Excuse me, where have i come across as a bully?
All I have said is it is manageable and that like me, many people avoid pushing themselves and then complain when they don't receive the points they feel they are entitled to. When did I talk down to anyone? And when did I say I expect everyone to act like robots?
Please take the time to re-read my post and tell me where I have given you these impressions or is it just the case that you complain if somebody disagrees with you. Unfortunately for you, it is something you have to accept and not shout bully at anyone who offers a difference in opinion.

I did read it. You don't have a difference of opinion. You have a superiority complex. You feel that no student is entitled to anything and we all were too and still are to "push ourselves". Well, I have news for you: we don't all plan to lock ourselves in our room for 5 or six hours every night studying and doing homework. Nobody should be told "go to school and come home and study and do homework totalling about 11.5 hours to get a course".

I understand you feel the need to defend the system since you're a teacher. But I doubt you're a teacher for a long time. You come across as one of those types that doesn't believe in flexibility. You believe in a ridgid, unyielding method of learning that is slavery. Working 11.5 hours per day is slavery, mainly when it's just a competetion to see who gets the highest poinst.

Face facts, the education system in this country is a joke and needs to be changed, drastically. But no, we don't get that. Instead of we have teachers like you who believe that "STUDY HARD AND PUSH YOURSELF AND YOU WILL DO WELL!" is the correct method. It is not a method that anyone should have to do. It is a form of bullying and a system designed not to find the weak minded and help them, but to force them into the bottom of society all because they can't memorize several books of facts.

partyatmygaff · 02-04-2011 07:01PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I sincerly doubt you're a teacher, or if you are, I'm glad I didn't have you.

You come across as a bully who enjoys talking down to people because they don't enjoy being robots.

What is all this that I hear about people "being robots" in the LC? There is NO subject on the LC course that you can just coast through without acquired and refined skill. Absolutely none.

I'll list the exams i'm sitting for an example

English P1: No rote learning possible. You need an acquired skill to write well in all the different modes of writing.
English P2: You need to know your prescribed texts and poets inside and out to the point of negating any need to purposefully sit down and learn off reams of quotes. To a prepared student, appropriate quotations will be brought forth naturally to suit the point. People who sit there mentally browsing through reams of quotes attempting to choose an appropriate quote have not studied their texts well enough. You also need to have a refined writing style, something that is acquired, not learned.

Irish: I'm rather terrible at Irish grammar so I prepare essays beforehand and learn them off and adjust to suit the question using my command of the language. Rote learning in Irish is almost encouraged...

Maths: Absolutely impossible to rote learn anything in Maths. If you don't have a firm understanding of what you're doing you will either fail or get a very poor grade. Contrary to what has been posted in this thread both papers are completely unpredictable.

Francais: Rote learning is part and parcel of learning a foreign language but only up to a certain extent. Verb tenses and moods must be learned off for example. The rest of the exam however cannot be rote learned. You need to be able to comprehend French both literally and orally as well to use French both literally and orally.

Biology: A mix of both rote learning in the case of anatomy and the human body and understanding in the case of processes such as respiration or genetics. From what i've been told Anatomy as it is taught to first year Med students involves the same style of rote learning.

Chemistry: Considered to be the most difficult of the three sciences and not without reason. No amount of rote learning whatsoever will help you in Chemistry barring perhaps definitions which comprise a tiny section of the exam.

Engineering: The theory exam needs a certain degree of rote learning and a certain degree of understanding and application. An example of rote learning would be learning the meaning of safety symbols and an example of understanding and application would be drawing up Thermal Equilibrium diagrams. 50% of the total mark is made up of a project and practical exam both of which require an acquired skill.

Business: You acquire the knowledge and then apply it to situations and use it to analyse situations. Knowledge without skill will get you nowhere. Likewise skill without knowledge will get you nowhere.

sock puppet · 02-04-2011 07:02PM

rebel10 wrote: »

I would avoid Art if it is rote learning you are avoiding. There is a huge amount of learning involved in the subject. Plus it is the hardest subject to achieve an A1 in.

Oh right didn't know that.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 07:09PM

Creative writing in English aside (the first paper), the rest is robotic memory. It was just "write 10 essays or so, memorize them, done".

Irish is the same, I feel. However, it's because it's taught like English instead of a language.

French and maths are a case of "you either understand maths and french or you don't". So no rote learning there, beyond certain things like learn verbs, nouns, forumlas for maths and so on but #I don't really consider it rote learning.

Science is rote learning (I'm not sure about physics, I never really grasped the maths :P). Chemistry is basically rote learning. There only exceptions I can think off were when you were given equations.

Biology is rote learning but again, I doubt there'd be another way to teach it.

History is obviously rote learning.

Business is also rote learning. Yes, you have to, at times, apply certain things. But for the most part it's not really "free thinking". It's a set idea you learn and of all those ideas you know, you consider what's the best one for the situation. It's simple memory skills and very little common sense.

I never had engineering in my school. I also have no idea whatsoever about art.

If I remember right from geography, it was basically the same as business. Of course, again it's a bit like history so some rote learning is a necessity.

rebel10 · 02-04-2011 07:19PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I did read it. You don't have a difference of opinion. You have a superiority complex. You feel that no student is entitled to anything and we all were too and still are to "push ourselves". Well, I have news for you: we don't all plan to lock ourselves in our room for 5 or six hours every night studying and doing homework. Nobody should be told "go to school and come home and study and do homework totalling about 11.5 hours to get a course".

Sorry but where are you getting these figures from? All I said was people need to push themselves more, including me. I didn't say anything about homework or study.?????? I certainly don't believe students should lock themselves up in their rooms. But again, can you please quote me so I know where you have misinterpreted me??????????

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I understand you feel the need to defend the system since you're a teacher.

I don't need to defend any system. The State Examinations Commission have nothing to do with teachers, they are a completely separate body.

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

But I doubt you're a teacher for a long time. You come across as one of those types that doesn't believe in flexibility. You believe in a ridgid, unyielding method of learning that is slavery. Working 11.5 hours per day is slavery, mainly when it's just a competetion to see who gets the highest poinst..

Listen, the length of time I have been teaching is irrelevant to anything you have been trying to say, so I don't know why you are mentioning it. I am teaching now 8 years. Where have I seemed inflexible? I don't believe in rigid learning, once again where did i say it, quote me! Again, what is the 11.5 hours about?????

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Instead of we have teachers like you who believe that "STUDY HARD AND PUSH YOURSELF AND YOU WILL DO WELL!" is the correct method. It is not a method that anyone should have to do. It is a form of bullying and a system designed not to find the weak minded and help them, but to force them into the bottom of society all because they can't memorize several books of facts.

My God! I can't believe what I am reading. :eek:

rebel10 · 02-04-2011 07:22PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Oh right didn't know that.

AFAIK, from talking to my students, they find Chemistry, Business and Geography the easiest subjects to just do in terms of workload and learning. In saying that though, I would imagine Chemistry would have its fair share of learning. L.C.V.P. is also another option for students who need to boost their points.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 07:22PM

rebel10 wrote: »

Sorry but where are you getting these figures from? All I said was people need to push themselves more, including me. I didn't say anything about homework or study.?????? I certainly don't believe students should lock themselves up in their rooms. But again, can you please quote me so I know where you have misinterpreted me??????????

I don't need to defend any system. The State Examinations Commission have nothing to do with teachers, they are a completely separate body.

Listen, the length of time I have been teaching is irrelevant to anything you have been trying to say, so I don't know why you are mentioning it. I am teaching now 8 years. Where have I seemed inflexible? I don't believe in rigid learning, once again where did i say it, quote me! Again, what is the 11.5 hours about?????
My God! I can't believe what I am reading. :eek:

You don't see a a problem with the amount of workload and study required by a student to get above 400 points in the leaving cert? If the answer is no, then I won't bother you again since you seem to have a rather unyielding opinion.

rebel10 · 02-04-2011 07:29PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

You don't see a a problem with the amount of workload and study required by a student to get above 400 points in the leaving cert? If the answer is no, then I won't bother you again since you seem to have a rather unyielding opinion.

Before you won't bother me again, could you please answer the questions I asked you regarding my post and then I will politely answer you.

Chaotic_Forces · 02-04-2011 07:30PM

rebel10 wrote: »

Before you won't bother me again, could you please answer the questions I asked you regarding my post and then I will politely answer you.

Alright, I have my answer, thanks.

Oh, right, the other bit.

It's on average that the students who tried to do well woudl have spent around 5 hours doing homework/studying. About 3 hours for homework and 2 hours for studying. Our school counsellor told us that an average of 6 hours in the week and 8 hours on the weekend would be expect of us if we wanted to do "well".

Interestingly, the majority of people in my school had to get grinds in various subjects and those that did, did very well. Those that did not but did the amount of studying that we were told to do just did well.
My point is you believe that "pushing yourself" is what is needed. It is not what is needed. A better system is needed. Anyone can tell you that. There's a reason grinds are very popular.

You're defending the education system as a whole, not just the exams.

Actually no, the length of time would have a lot to do with it. You see, if you've been teaching a long time, you'd realize that most leaving cert students are incapable of being listened to. Many, many teachers do not coordinate their efforts and as such, the students are given too much to do. You would know this if you taught a long time. But again, that isn't really your fault, just something most teachers overlook and feel "their" subject is most important and that students should manage because they did.

And finally, if you have bothered your backside to read the thread you would have understood the 11.5 hour comment. But you did not bother to read it all.

The Leaving Cert Is A Form Of Slavery

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