Dying To Have Known (A Gerson Therapy Documentary)

Mahatma coat

King Mob wrote: »

Actually you said that my point was dealt with in the video.

EXACTLY, its dealt with in the video, We are discussing the VIDEO, watch the Video and then we can discuss what is said in relation to your questions

Asking how these doctors are trustworthy seems to be relevant to the topic.

Again, watch the video, the doctors credentials are all discussed

Mahatma coat

as for anecdotes

Someone who has Survived for 11 Years when give 3-6 months to live by ''Mainstream'' medicine, thats fairly conclusive in my book


A lot of the people interviewed are eyewitness testimony

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

EXACTLY, its dealt with in the video, We are discussing the VIDEO, watch the Video and then we can discuss what is said in relation to your questions

Again, watch the video, the doctors credentials are all discussed

And had I watched the video, it would have been a waste of time because if you had read my posts you'd find that credentials don't factor into trustworthiness because the mainstream doctors also credentials that are just as good but are not to be trusted.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

as for anecdotes

Someone who has Survived for 11 Years when give 3-6 months to live by ''Mainstream'' medicine, thats fairly conclusive in my book

A lot of the people interviewed are eyewitness testimony

But how do you know that their anecdotes are true? What if they are leaving out details of their story either by simple mistake or deliberately (or even dishonestly edited out by the makers of the video)?
Or what if it's a case of spontaneous remission? Or misdiagnosis?
Or any of hundreds of combinations of the above and many other things I've haven't mentioned or can't think of?
I think you must be using a different definition of the word "conclusive" than I am.

And then what of the anecdotes that don't gel with your beliefs?
What about the millions of people genuinely helped by mainstream cancer treatment? What about the anecdotes from doctors who has seen their patients get worse because they use alternative treatments like this instead of proper medicine?
Or what about my anecdote about eating **** food and avoiding all this mega vitamin nonsense, yet any still pretty healthy?
Are they as conclusive?

Mahatma coat

one last time

Watch the video, then we can Discuss the video.

it does raise some very interesting points, points that I feel merit discussion, however if you dont have a frame of reference then How can we discuss them.
one I'd like to discuss are the Japanese surgeons who are using this technique.

I'd also like to discuss the clinics that offer both this treatment and Conventional medicine.

I'd like to discuss the Style of the filmmaker and whether it had any bearing on peoples opinion.

however its hard to have a discussion about these things if one party refuses to watch the Video

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

one last time

Watch the video, then we can Discuss the video.

it does raise some very interesting points, points that I feel merit discussion, however if you dont have a frame of reference then How can we discuss them.
one I'd like to discuss are the Japanese surgeons who are using this technique.

I'd also like to discuss the clinics that offer both this treatment and Conventional medicine.

I'd like to discuss the Style of the filmmaker and whether it had any bearing on peoples opinion.

however its hard to have a discussion about these things if one party refuses to watch the Video

And all I really wanted was to have one very simple question answered...

Mahatma coat

Watch the Video, if your question is not answered in it come back and ask again.

fontanalis

Funny, I would have thought anyone who has a cure for cancer would be sitting on an absolute goldmine. Obviously not.

Tahuti

It sounds a little like the Royal Touch.




Then again, I knew a Polish lad had stomach cancer, he reckoned by eating food he was feeding the cancer, so he went on a diet of a bit of rice only, for a few months, and the tumour died. I was with him when he got the results.

That was the second time he'd done it.

A bit like Dirk Benedict too, of A-Team fame, using a macrobiotic diet to cure himself of cancer.

Similar to the advice in this treatise, I suppose...http://www.scribd.com/doc/449835/The-Water-of-Life


So maybe there is something to this Gerson stuff. No harm trying it if you have cancer, in any case.

King Mob

Welp, had a quick watch through. Skipped through the useless anecdotes and bad science, surprisingly my question has not been answered.
All the points I made about them relying on their doctor's authority was entirely true, but I can now add the fact they are relying on 80-90 year old research too.
I liked the bits with Dr. Wallace Samson and Dr. Steve Barrett, those guys talked sense. It's to bad the interviewer was clearly biased.

Also the way they try to get scientists who made discoveries that sound like the stuff the diet claims to say stuff that sounds like it confirms it is sickening frankly. It's entirely dishonest and what's worse is they had to have known what they were doing when they did this.

So again, what makes the doctors in this film so trustworthy, while equally qualified doctors are not to be trusted?
And a new one: What makes the documentary maker so trustworthy when he is being so clearly biased and dishonest?

Boethius

Looked through the movie,

Researcher is clearly biased, he was told on a number of occasions that a double blind study was the only way to convinve mainstream medicine but yet somehow forgot to raise this with anyone at the Gerson clinic?

I also enjoy that they stuck in the orthomolecular hall of fame honour even though it has absolutely nothing to do with treating disease....

Jeboa Safari

Mahatma coat wrote: »

as for anecdotes

Someone who has Survived for 11 Years when give 3-6 months to live by ''Mainstream'' medicine, thats fairly conclusive in my book


A lot of the people interviewed are eyewitness testimony

That doesn't necessarily mean it was down to the 'treatment'. Look at various miracles, here's one where a nun prayed to Pope John Paul II, and her Parkinsons disease was cured; http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/miracle-nun-says-she-recovered-after-praying-to-pope-79978

Does that mean praying to the pope is now a viable alternative to 'mainstream' medicine?

Pixel8

King Mob wrote: »

Wow. I think I might have a bridge or two to sell you.
Where did you get the the vitamin tablets you think cured the flu?


I'm not, I assure you. It's almost entirely meat and diary and coke and bread and various junk foods.

You do understand why anecdotal evidence is totally useless in this kinda stuff right?

Well if that's your diet, im sorry to inform you that by the age of around 40-50 you will have a good chance of developing cancer, diabetes or heart disease.

When's the last time you had a full medical check? I had one last year in the Beacon hospital and im perfect except for slightly high cholesterol. Im a big smoker and they tell me my lungs are perfect, pah!

King Mob, you are a complete waste of time, go away and leave the thread alone... I know of around 8 people who have died of cancer in the last year and a half, and they were trying conventional medicine. If only they had given the Gerson Therapy a go...

And if you think Stephen Barrett is worth believing when he presents absolutely NO evidence against the Gerson Therapy then you are completely unscientific yourself. You can even see by his body language and his eyes that he's dishonest, nuff said, you mustn't be very good at reading body language. What is it about people like you and Stephen Barrett, it's as if they are just completely negative people who live off negativity.

A good researcher doesn't skip through the whole movie, he looks at the whole thing and reaches an informed conclusion, you are really just looking to back up your own beliefs, not the truth.

King Mob

Pixel8 wrote: »

Well if that's your diet, im sorry to inform you that by the age of around 40-50 you will have a good chance of developing cancer, diabetes or heart disease.

Well you'll forgive me if I don't take seriously the opinion of some one who buys into obvious snake oil.

And if I do actually get these or other diseases I will be seeking actual medical advice.

Pixel8 wrote: »

When's the last time you had a full medical check? I had one last year in the Beacon hospital and im perfect except for slightly high cholesterol. Im a big smoker and they tell me my lungs are perfect, pah!

I haven't had one. Ever in fact.
But I've no medical problems to complain about.

Pixel8 wrote: »

King Mob, you are a complete waste of time, go away and leave the thread alone... I know of around 8 people who have died of cancer in the last year and a half, and they were trying conventional medicine. If only they had given the Gerson Therapy a go...

And what about the millions of other cases of cancer patients being successful treated with conventional medicine?

Why am I a waste of time? Cause I hold up claims to basic standards? Cause I don't buy what I'm told by people on the internet?
Why not just address my points and show me to be the waste of time I am?
I wasted my time watching that biased piece of nonsense, you could at least return the courtesy.

Now any chance you'll take a crack at my original question?
If you can't actually answer it, at the very least say as much.

Pixel8

Boethius wrote: »

I also enjoy that they stuck in the orthomolecular hall of fame honour even though it has absolutely nothing to do with treating disease....

Oh really? I think you are mistaken: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthomolecular_medicine

Mainstream medicine thinks fluoride is good to have in our water even though flouride is used in rat poison. Mainstream medicine, the FDA, the AMA and dentistry think that mercury is safe to use in tooth fillings.

They are totally wrong on both counts, ask anyone who has studied chemistry. So what else are they wrong about? Lots of things...

King Mob

Pixel8 wrote: »

Mainstream medicine thinks fluoride is good to have in our water even though flouride is used in rat poison. Mainstream medicine, the FDA, the AMA and dentistry think that mercury is safe to use in tooth fillings.

You know what else is in rat poison? Dihydrogen Monoxide.
DHMO has killed far more people that fluoride and mercury put together.
You should look it up.

RGDATA!

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Lets discuss the points raised in the Video, and ONLY The points raised in the video.

if people want to ramble off on tangents about how it couldnt be a conspiracy because its inconcievable that XYZ 'Honest and decent People' would act against our best interests, Save it for another thread.

Lets discuss the points raised in the Video

before i contribute - am I allowed to say anything based on knowledge I've learned from other research, or can I only comment on what's in those videos?

Pixel8

King Mob wrote: »

Now any chance you'll take a crack at my original question?
If you can't actually answer it, at the very least say as much.

You're looking for their trustworthiness, yeah?

Well, research their websites then:

Dr. Saul:
http://www.doctoryourself.com/aboutme.html

Dr. Linus Pauling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling

Pauling is one of only four individuals to have won more than one Nobel Prize.[3] He is one of only two people awarded Nobel Prizes in different fields (the Chemistry and Peace prizes), the other being Marie Curie (the Chemistry and Physics prizes), and the only person awarded two unshared prizes.[4]

I would say Pauling is pretty damn trustworthy with a history like his!

T. Colin Campbell PhD (The China Study):
http://www.tcolincampbell.org/

Caldwell Esselstyn Jr M.D.:
http://www.heartattackproof.com/

I would say all 4 doctors above are well trustworthy from researching their work and their lives and they all appear in the documentary agreeing with the Gerson Therapy's effectiveness. They are all doctors and stand to make a lot less money pushing the Gerson Therapy than they would pushing big pharma drugs so why are they doing it then? Maybe they care about their fellow humans health a bit more than money grabbing pharma whores.

King Mob

Pixel8 wrote: »

You're looking for their trustworthiness, yeah?

Well, research their websites then:

Dr. Saul:
http://www.doctoryourself.com/aboutme.html

Dr. Linus Pauling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling


I would say Pauling is pretty damn trustworthy with a history like his!

T. Colin Campbell PhD (The China Study):
http://www.tcolincampbell.org/

I would say all 3 doctors above are well trustworthy from researching their work and their lives and they all appear in the documentary agreeing with the Gerson Therapy's effectiveness.

But there's much much more scientists who disagree with the effectivness with qualifications that are just as good.
Why are they not trustworthy?

Boethius

Pixel8 wrote: »

Oh really? I think you are mistaken: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthomolecular_medicine

Mainstream medicine thinks fluoride is good to have in our water even though flouride is used in rat poison. Mainstream medicine, the FDA, the AMA and dentistry think that mercury is safe to use in tooth fillings.

They are totally wrong on both counts, ask anyone who has studied chemistry. So what else are they wrong about? Lots of things...

From the article you quoted;
'Nutrients may be useful in preventing and treating some illnesses, but the broad claims made by advocates of megavitamin therapy are considered unsubstantiated by available medical evidence'

and

'Research suggests that some nutritional supplements might be harmful several specific vitamin therapies are associated with an increased risk of cancer, heart disease, or death.'

Just because someone uses something to treat a pathology doesn't mean that it actually works. This all leads back to evidence based medicine and the fact is that Gerson never produced a study that can be used to establish the effectiveness of the treatments.

The video doesn't address this issue which is bewildering for an unbiased piece of work as it is the only complaint mainstream medicine has with Gerson therapy...

Pixel8

King Mob wrote: »

You know what else is in rat poison? Dihydrogen Monoxide.
DHMO has killed far more people that fluoride and mercury put together.
You should look it up.

That's nice and whats your reply to mainstream medicine backing flouride in water and mercury in silver amalgams? Stick to the point.

Pixel8

King Mob wrote: »

But there's much much more scientists who disagree with the effectivness with qualifications that are just as good.
Why are they not trustworthy?

They are the ones in it for the money, are you completely retarded or what?!?!

Waste of time, i give up... Stick to conventional medicine then if you think it's better, i certainly don't think it is when it comes to chronic diseases.

Pixel8

Boethius wrote: »

'Research suggests that some nutritional supplements might be harmful several specific vitamin therapies are associated with an increased risk of cancer, heart disease, or death.'

LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES

King Mob

Pixel8 wrote: »

They are the ones in it for the money, are you completely retarded or what?!?!

Waste of time, i give up...

But how are the doctors you think are the good ones immune to being corrupted by money?
http://www.doctoryourself.com/order.html
There seems to be quite a lot of money to be made on this supplement thing.

Pixel8 wrote: »

That's nice and whats your reply to mainstream medicine backing flouride in water and mercury in silver amalgams? Stick to the point.

The same you should have for the evils of dihydrogen monoxide.

The way you're presenting it is dishonest.

Pixel8 wrote: »

LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES

Ok, how do you know they are lies?

Boethius

Pixel8 wrote: »

LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES

Ah you were the one who submitted that article as evidence?

Also confusing that what accepted research has shown is lies but purely anecdotal evidence is unequivocally true?

eilo1

Pixel8 wrote: »

LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES

I mean this in the nicest way possible, you need to relax! not everyone is out to get you!

Here is a link to some information on vitamin overdoses

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002596.htm

Its great that you are taking an active interest in your health but be careful of believing everything you read on the internet.
I could find you a website that says all of the following are bad for you. But it just isnt true!
Carbs, Fat, Protein, Grains, Dairy, Fruit, Vegetables.

As for the cancer video if the treatment worked we would all try it. It is not for researchers to disprove treatments. Treatments must be proven before becoming medicine!

Unfortunately this treatment has not been proven to work. I dont understand why the therapist will not submit it for testing if they really, honestly and truly believe they can cure cancer then they have an obligation to share that with the world!

I think the real money maker here is Dr. Gerson and his family. If they did subject there therapy to rigorous testing all their methods would be made public information and they may loose out financially.
No where in the video did they say they treated people for free (or did i miss that?!)

clever_name

Mahatma coat wrote: »

tis Fairly hard to refute the treatment if Someone is tellin ya that they were diagnosed with Terminal cancewr and given 3 Months to live 11 years ago :eek:

I have an uncle who was given 24 hours to live, (heart problem, not cancer) had all the family in to say goodbye, that was over 20 years ago and he is still alive, he still smokes & drinks - should that be the new treatment for people with heart problems?, after all it worked for him... but he was just one man in the ward.

Having watched the video I can honestly say that I was not convinced but lets put that aside and let me ask a simple question.

If this method works and will cure people, why not submit a proper study, get it peer reviewed and then allow the treatment to be used on a bigger scale, surely by not doing this they are allowing people to suffer needlessly?

clever_name

Pixel8 wrote: »

LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES

OK calm down, now don't get offended here but are you aware of the concept of too much of a good thing?

If you need vitamins on a continuous basis it could indicate something is wrong, vitamin supplements are used to make up for a deficiency, it would be much healthier to address the root cause of the deficiency and alter your lifestyle to ensure you are getting all the nutrients you require. Also probably be a hell of a lot cheaper.

Pixel8 wrote: »

When's the last time you had a full medical check? I had one last year in the Beacon hospital and im perfect except for slightly high cholesterol. Im a big smoker and they tell me my lungs are perfect, pah!

Interesting, maybe you should think again...

Pixel8 wrote: »

Guys, if you believe this doesn't work, then you're only listening to what medical doctors and the government are telling you. They are NOT trying to cure you, they are ONLY trying to sell you their drugs

Why would you believe a doctor when they say your lungs are clear? Why not say you are sick and start selling you drugs?

They say you are perfect and let you walk out the door with a full wallet? I thought all the doctors (at least 94% anyway) are in the pocket of big pharma, so why would you go for a check up if its all quackery?

Also a very serious question, worst case - you get diagnosed with cancer - would you use any mainstream medicine?

victorhelsing

Unfortunately, there is less to be enthusiastic about than you might expect, after watching the videos. And yes, I watched "Dying to have known" (it was sent to me by my father, who is a chiropractor and hates just about everything associated with organized medicine). I also watched a followup propaganda piece by the same "filmmaker" called "A beautiful truth", which is available free on the internet. And I've read Gerson's original book, A cancer therapy 50 cases, and I've read Charlotte Gerson's book, and I've read two books by Linus Pauling (including the one with the Scottish physician treating cancer with huge IV doses of vitamin C). I read "Death be not proud", by John Gunther, a highly respected historian, who wrote about his son, who was treated for brain tumor by Gerson.

In addition, out of respect for my father, I engaged in an extended email exchange with Howard Straus, the son of Charlotte Gerson, hoping to learn more about the scientific foundations for the therapy. I attempted like crazy to find additional documentation on the clinical studies supposedly being performed in Japan (mentioned in the video). You can check the internet yourself. It is clear that these "studies" have been around since at least 2005, yet there is not yet any publication of their "results" other than unfounded claims made in the video. Why are these enthusiastic physicians, some of whom had their lives saved by Gerson therapy, waiting to publish?

There is no point arguing science with those who do not believe in science.

Perhaps it is easier to make a simple point about human nature, which we all understand to some degree. There is no question that thousands of people have been treated at the Gerson clinic over decades, supposedly many with terminal cancers, abandoned by conventional medicine. Since that is true, there should be THOUSANDS of these people who are eternally grateful to the Gerson therapy for saving their lives. There is no way that any grand conspiracy by the "cancer industry" could suppress these people and their stories, especially now with the internet freely propagating every imaginable outrage and conspiracy theory.

And yet, when I asked Howard Straus for data on their success rates with various therapies, he had none to offer me. Why? Because they lose touch with all of these people after they are cured by the Gerson clinic!

Really? A person who is cured of a terminal illness after being forsaken by conventional medicine should be eternally grateful, and not difficult to track, since most of them are relatively old, living stable lives.

After careful consideration, I am obliged to conclude that these thousands of cured patients do not exist. I am even willing to accept the possibility that a relatively small number of patients had their cancers regress or even cured after taking the Gerson therapy. However, these patients represent the tiniest fraction of those who seek help from Gerson, and therefore, the Gerson proponents are unable to cite the numbers (as a fraction of those treated) since they are worse than the dismal numbers offered by conventional medicine.

Strangely, I am more than a little sad about this, since I love my father and he has always believed devoutly that Gerson was persecuted and suppressed by conventional medicine. After researching carefully (since he is nearing the end of his life), I am unable to accept his belief on this, despite much effort.

(Incidentally, it was offered to me multiple times that there was also an antisemitic motivation to the Gerson persecution and suppression. I reject this, in part, because Jews are disproportionately represented in conventional medicine, and would be reluctant, especially in the early post Nazi years, to persecute one of their own.)

Penn

Pixel8 banned for personal abuse and making the natives restless. I'd also like to remind everyone that nobody here is a doctor or can offer medical advice, so take everything you read here with a pinch of salt, twice a day for 2 weeks.

Di0genes

Barrington wrote: »

Pixel8 banned for personal abuse and making the natives restless. I'd also like to remind everyone that nobody here is a doctor or can offer medical advice, so take everything you read here with a pinch of salt, twice a day for 2 weeks.

SACN advise that the maximum amount of salt you should have in your diet is 4g a day.

Two pinches of salt in addition to the high sodium food that is standard western diet may exceed your RDA.