Cameron's Plan For No-Fly Zone Over Libya

OS119

hmmm wrote: »

A fine rebel collection in the Western mountains

i hope they've got Hi-Viz and IR panels, or they'll be razor blades by dawn...

hmmm

OS119 wrote: »

i hope they've got Hi-Viz and IR panels, or they'll be razor blades by dawn...

I noticed in some of the Rebel videos that those shooting the MILANs in the Western Mountains were the only people whose faces were blocked out - which suggests that these could be NATO (or Qataris).

Here's a video of them driving their new armour around. I imagine that Shilka would be handy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahhsLqM0oXQ

The bravest pilot in Libya is in this video, around 0.30 - no way that's from NATO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Gv8OAFW8U

There seems to be big confidence gains amongst the rebels now that the siege of Misrata has been broken. In particular, there is a large Gadaffi force effectively cut off between Misrata and the towns further West - this video shows the rebels from Misrata fighting in that area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivjZJA9WVzc

hmmm

This video is apparently from South of Misratah yesterday. From about 1.40 onwards is like a scene from Mad Max. Watch 3.25 Note that the rebels are fighting on 3 (or 4 if you include the port) fronts from Misratah so this is not all their mobile strength.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MfiuoizFMs

I wouldn't like to be in the cabin when this is fired


Interesting PsyOps reported today
http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFLDE74F1DU20110516

Steyr

Fighter Control have been busy de-bunking callsigns..

Agip Italian - C130
Akila - Swedish Gripen
Alien - RAF Tornado
Ascot - RAF transport or deployment
Aurora - CP-140 aurora
Axis - USAF EC130H Commando Solo III
Barbo - Spanish AF Casa CN 295
Blast - Dutch F16
Boar - A10
Bobcat - Belgian F16
Bolar- F15
Bone - B-1B Lancer
Brandy Italian F16
Broadsword - E3 Sentry
Bulldog Formation Dutch F16
Chaos - VAQ-132 EA-18G c/s
Coastguard - (see Netherlands coastguard)
Convoy - USN transport
Cotam - French Navy
Cylon - F15
Cylon - E-8C JSTARS
Cyrano - French E3
Dagger - Canadian CF-18A
Daniel - FAF Mirage
Dumbo - Spanish C130
English - RQ-4B Global Hawk
Exxon - KC135
Fagin - Tristar
Falcon - DAF F16
Fang - RAF Tornado
Fatia - UAE F16
Forte - RQ-4B Global Hawk
Fueller-KC135
Funny - AC130
Gambler - BAF F16
Gold - USAF tanker
Havoc - Eurofighter
Hawg - RC135
Herky - USAF C130
Husky - Canadian airbus CC-150T
India - Italian Navy
Jack - FAF Mirage
King - USAF HC130
Kodak - Italian Tornado
Lark - F18
Lascar - Rafale from Carrier Charles de Gaulle
Legacy - MV-22 Osprey USMC USS Kearsage
Lion - USAF C130
Lynch - Dutch F16
Mammoth - Spanish AF B707
Marcotte - French AF C135CF
Merlin - Nimrod
Mity - Swedish tanker
Mobil - USAF tanker
Monster - RAF Tornado
Netherlands Coastguard- Dornier Do 228
Norseman - F16
Ogre - Sikorsky CH53
Olive - RC135
Panther - Italian Tornado also USAF F16
Papa Sierra - P3 Orion
Petro - Canadian A310
Phantom - Danish AF F16
Player - Belgian F16
Pod - USMC C130J
Poker - F18
Psycho - A10
Python - USAF E8C
Rampage - RAF Typhoon
Razor - RAF Typhoon
Ribas - USAF Predator
Rhino - A10
Righteous -US Harriers
Romeo Alpha - US EP3
SAM - C32
Saarab - Qatari Mirage 2000
Saturn - Sentinnel R1
Shell - KC135
Shocker - Eurofighter
Shuck - USAF E3
Simba - VC10
Skiff - US AC130
Snake - Danish F16
Snapshot - Sentinnel
Sniper - F18
Soap - C130
Solex - RAF E3D
Steel - C130
Stone - RJAF F16
Strike - F15
Swing 43 - pilot id 2xF15 and 1xF16 to Decimomannu
Tartan - VC10
Texaco - KC135
Tiger - Swedish AF J39 Gripen
Titon - Italian Eurofighter
Total - FAF C135
Trend - flight of 6 USAF F15 Eagles
Tribal - GR4 Tornado
Tyrant - RAF Typhoon
United Nations - Lear 35
Vendetta - US pilot heading to Aviano
Vice - AC 130
Viper - F16
Voodoo - RNoAF or DAF F16
Weasel - F16
Wedge - CAF F18
Wizzard - Nimrod
Wolf - Italian Navy AV-8
Zeus - E3

Steyr

May 15th:

18.33 Toxic35 Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16AM/MLU, switching to tactical.

19.07 Thunder15 Royal Air Force Tornado GR4/GR4A , squawk 2415 direct to Gioia del Colle.

19.20 Toxic33flight two ship Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16AM/MLU, squawk 1533, to Decimomannu AB.

19.56 RA514 EP-3 United States Navy, at 20.35 switched to tactical.

19.59 Snake33 Royal Danish Air Force F-16AM Fighting Falcon, to Sigonella AB.

20.46 PS151 United States Navy P-3C Orion, checking in.

21.33 Asena61 Turkish Air Force KC-135R-CRAG Tanker 101 Filo, at 21.43 went tactical.

21.34 Devil12 Italian Air Force Tornado ( TYPE UNKNOWN ECR/IDS ), checking in.

21.50 Mobil36 United States Air Force KC-135A "57-1499" 191st ARS/106th ARS Air National Guard "Dixie Refuelers" Birmingham International Airport, Alabama, moving to Moron AB.

Steyr

May 16th:

08.57 Tyrant63 Royal Air Force Tornado GR4 "ZA472/031" No. 15 (R) Squadron RAF Lossiemouth, contacting Brindisi 264.850.

09.20 Mighty05 Swedish Air Force C-130H Hercules "TP 84", at 9.32 switched to tactical.

09.32 Tiger14 Swedish Air Force JAS 39A, switching to tactical.

09.48 Nasty07 Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16AM/MLU, checking in.

09.52 Lizard62 Royal Air Force Typhoon F2, squawk 2462 to Gioia AB.

09.52 Lizard61 Royal Air Force Typhoon F2, squawk 2461 to Brindisi 121.075/264.850.

09.53 Wolf66 Italian Navy AV-8B+ Harrier, to Rome 234.375.

09.54 Herky180 United States Air Force Europe ( USAFE ) C130J Super Hercules 37th AS/86th AW Ramstein AB Germany "RS" "08-8601" to Athens 124.625.

10.04 Viking20 Royal Norwegian Air Force F-16AM, at 10.17 went tactical.

10.05 Viking21 Royal Norwegian Air Force F-16AM, at 10.17 tactical.

10.20 Fagin12 Royal Air Force L-1011-385-3 TriStar K1 (500) "ZD951" 216 Squadron RAF Brize Norton, checking in.

10.23 Nasty05 Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16AM/MLU is switching to tactical.

hmmm

Map of Misrata, I don't think it's particularly inaccurate. http://twitpic.com/4ze79w

The important strategic goal is to cut the road to the South, which will largely isolate Sirte and Gadaffi forces further to the East (e.g. on the front line around Brega). If those forces could be isolated, there would be a great opportunity for rebels in the East to link up with those in Misrata.

hmmm

The French have deployed a helicopter carrier, the BPC Tonnerre, to Libya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Tonnerre_%28L9014%29 . Eurocopter Tigers I think are onboard.

The Guardian are reporting that Britain will also be deploying Apaches. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/23/apache-helicopters-libya-britain?CMP=twt_gu

As they say, a significant escalation.

Cork boy 55

Anyone think the destruction of gaffadis Naval fleet a bit excesssive

I mean victory is around the corner and NATO goes and destroys 100 millions
of euros worth of Ships that had been sitting tied up by the quayside for the whole war.

I know Gaddafi was using speedboats to lay mines around Misrata but how does that justify turning his frigates and corvettes into scrap
They could have disabled them instead they destroyed them.

I wonder where the new libyaian government will be buying its new navy?

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/RafStrikesGaddafisNavy.htm

Cork boy 55

hmmm wrote: »

The French have deployed a helicopter carrier, the BPC Tonnerre, to Libya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Tonnerre_%28L9014%29 . Eurocopter Tigers I think are onboard.

The Guardian are reporting that Britain will also be deploying Apaches. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/23/apache-helicopters-libya-britain?CMP=twt_gu

As they say, a significant escalation.

Gunships(with forward air controllers) like the drones are what is needed they should have been there from day one. Game changers.
They are far more important than blowing up Gaddafi anchored fleet or bombing empty barracks and buildings around the captial

What pisses me off about this war or no fly zone plus or whatever it is
is how quickly it could be ended with just a small Intervention from the
west or others on the ground.

goldie fish

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Anyone think the destruction of gaffadis Naval fleet a bit excesssive

I mean victory is around the corner and NATO goes and destroys 100 millions
of euros worth of Ships that had been sitting tied up by the quayside for the whole war.

I know Gaddafi was using speedboats to lay mines around Misrata but how does that justify turning his frigates and corvettes into scrap
They could have disabled them instead they destroyed them.

I wonder where the new libyaian government will be buying its new navy?

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/RafStrikesGaddafisNavy.htm

It has not been by the quayside. Refugees have reported that the Libyan navy was harassing ships trying to get them out of misrata, and unsuccessfully engaged either a RN or Canadian warship in the last week. Better off getting them out of the Picture. It isn't a first.

Google Mers-El-Kebir 1940

Avgas

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

What pisses me off about this war or no fly zone plus or whatever it is
is how quickly it could be ended with just a small Intervention from the
west or others on the ground.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm... yeah.....seeing as we (the west) are "in" now...we may as well get the job done....even if the Resolution doesn't really say that.....BUT even with the Choppers and drones, and even with say a hypothetical Quatari battlegroup [???] on the ground.....it may not be as pretty or easy as you suggest. To 'take out' mobile pro-Ghaddafi elements in open country and the road network is very doable.....its the final battle in Tripoli that could be unpredictable/uber nasty......three or four battalions of NATO standard infantry milling around in that could be decisive there.... but there would be fatalities... the best scenario is that he cuts and runs or there is an internal bunker coup and he's 'removed from the scene' by his own people. But what if a few thousand of them decide to hunker down in Tripoli and fight it out?

Stalingrad is the wrong analogy... but equally do the rebels have the skill set and resources that US forces demonstrated for FIBUA in Fallujah 2004-and even then it was not easy? Admittedly Ghaddifi's people don't have the same profile of many of the nut-jobs in Fallujah...i.e. 'co-operative targets' ....but.....its far from a case of a few Para's/Marines on the ground should sort them out.....

This is totally unpredictable: it could all end tomorrow or could easily drag on till Christmas. Either Christmas 2011-12 or 2012-13 that is.

We'll see what a difference the Tigres make. If that doesn't do it they'll be talking some form of more substantial ground forces or more likely openly arming the rebels, for the autumn.

Cork boy 55

goldie fish wrote: »

It has not been by the quayside. Refugees have reported that the Libyan navy was harassing ships trying to get them out of misrata, and unsuccessfully engaged either a RN or Canadian warship in the last week. Better off getting them out of the Picture. It isn't a first.

Google Mers-El-Kebir 1940

I am pretty sure that only small boats where involved on the Libyan side
and his "captial" ships where moored since the NFZ+ was but in place.

Burnt

Apache's operating in pairs have been flying round south of London,
today and yesterday. It would look like they are gearing up.

BrianD

Burnt wrote: »

Apache's operating in pairs have been flying round south of London,
today and yesterday. It would look like they are gearing up.

Connected to Obamas visit?

If they were training surely it would be on a range?

Burnt

This is pretty far out form the city centre ~20km, unless they are flying holding orbits.
But they fly south in the morning and north in the evening, so, I think thats fairly unlikely.
But I'm far from an expert could be very mistaken. There are some reports in the papers of
exercises in Suffolk, but thats the other side.

LondonIrish90

Burnt wrote: »

This is pretty far out form the city centre ~20km, unless they are flying holding orbits.
But they fly south in the morning and north in the evening, so, I think thats fairly unlikely.
But I'm far from an expert could be very mistaken. There are some reports in the papers of
exercises in Suffolk, but thats the other side.

Fairly common is it not?

Certainly in Kent, Essex and around the estuary you will probably see attack helicopters, be it apache or lynx, every other day. Which part of south london are you in?

Fratton Fred

So where will the Apaches operate from. Is Sicily close enough for them or will it be from the French carrier?

Donny5

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So where will the Apaches operate from. Is Sicily close enough for them or will it be from the French carrier?

HMS Ocean, an amphibious assault ship.

Burnt

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Fairly common is it not?

Certainly in Kent, Essex and around the estuary you will probably see attack helicopters, be it apache or lynx, every other day. Which part of south london are you in?

I'm seeing them south west of Kingston, we see lynx and chinooks over here
all the time, but apaches are not so common at all. A few times a year.

Fratton Fred

Donny5 wrote: »

HMS Ocean, an amphibious assault ship.

I didn't realise she was out there. I need to keep up with this thread.

BrianD

We're getting further and further away from the UN resolution and closer and closer to boots on the ground.

There was a lot of talk about Gadaffy's portable SAMs. You don't hear about them being used and I wonder what threat they still pose?

OS119

BrianD wrote: »

...There was a lot of talk about Gadaffy's portable SAMs. You don't hear about them being used and I wonder what threat they still pose?

they still exist, so they pose a threat - but nothing i've heard about the ongoing op suggests they are being fired at anyone with any regularity. NATO aircraft are regularly flying within the 'maybe' zone of systems like SAM-7, Blowpipe, Stinger, Strela, Redeye and Starstreak in daylight, and previous experience suggests that in such situations scared people let rip with whatever is to hand, regardless of the technicalities of system performance and kill probability.

logic would therefore indicate that either Ghaddafi loyalists are either the most disciplined troops in the world, or that its yet another capability that governments buy, but don't trust their troops enough to actually issue.

personally i can see the AH capability being used pretty sparingly - they are vunerable to ground fire, and the situation on the ground isn't exactly heaving with good fire disipline, but they will be very useful in dislodging specific centres of resistance that it might be a bit dodgy to use a 500lb bomb on.

hmmm

ChangeInLibya Mhalwes
BREGA: Breaking via WefaqLibya: FreeArmy attacking Gaddafi forces in Brega from 3 directions with the aid of NATO helicopters. #Libya #Feb17

That's interesting, because the talk was that the helicopters would only be used to secure Misrata - Brega is a long long way away.

These are some of the leaflets being dropped on Gadaffi forces

Apparently they read "WARNING, you are no match to the advanced weapons and air superiority of NATO. Continuing your attacks on civilians will be the reason for your death. "

It was interesting today that Russia has come out now against Gadaffi - that is the surest sign to me that the "war" is not going his way.

BrianD

hmmm wrote: »

That's interesting, because the talk was that the helicopters would only be used to secure Misrata - Brega is a long long way away.

These are some of the leaflets being dropped on Gadaffi forces

Apparently they read "WARNING, you are no match to the advanced weapons and air superiority of NATO. Continuing your attacks on civilians will be the reason for your death. "

It was interesting today that Russia has come out now against Gadaffi - that is the surest sign to me that the "war" is not going his way.

The Libyans have probably already been watching what the drones have been doing. Didn't the Taliban manage to intercept the video signals from drones using their laptops in a cave?

It does depend how disciplined the Libyan Government troops are. The Americans found that in Iraq that the Apaches were quite vulnerable particualrly if some suitable equipped mobile forces get ahead of the main targets.

Batsy

Here are some British Army Apaches, some of which are being sent to Libya. In my view they are superior to their American counterparts.



And here's one in action:



And they'll be operating from Royal Navy helicopter carrier HMS Ocean:

BlaasForRafa

BrianD wrote: »

We're getting further and further away from the UN resolution and closer and closer to boots on the ground.

There was a lot of talk about Gadaffy's portable SAMs. You don't hear about them being used and I wonder what threat they still pose?

There was an interesting clip on Al Jazeera this afternoon. In the fighting around Misurata one of their cameramen spotted three "western european" looking males with a bunch of local fighters, when they noticed the camera they covered up their faces.

hmmm

Probably one of the heaviest days of bombing on Tripoli today, in particular Gadaffi's huge compound in central Baghdad. Interestingly, NATO has previously targeted some of the guard towers on the compound, today they took out the main gates. Rebels are now within 100km of Tripoli.

Green Back

hmmm wrote: »

Probably one of the heaviest days of bombing on Tripoli today, in particular Gadaffi's huge compound in central Baghdad. Interestingly, NATO has previously targeted some of the guard towers on the compound, today they took out the main gates. Rebels are now within 100km of Tripoli.

Wrong war

hmmm

Green Back wrote: »

Wrong war

I hope NATO mission planners aren't as dopey as I am when handing out the GPS co-ordinates