Farming Chit Chat

reilig

bob charles wrote: »

I dont think prices will be up that much in the Spring but there is a serious fodder crisis coming down the line. I think that it is now that those above us should start sorting out some sort of an action plan. From visiting guys is that small farmer with his dozen cows that is the worst affected. Lots of these guy have the calves sold and they are left with there bread and butter which they cant sell otherwise they will have no income next year. Forage collections next spring could be very common to keep these poor guys animals alive,

I agree. The smaller guys will be the greatest affected. I don't see animals dieing or being starved to death though. There are enough options out there to keep animals fed. It will cost money, but its not like the 1960's or 1970's when there was less of an option to import feed.

I think with a lot of calves sold this autumn, cattle for grass will be scarce on the ground next spring and it will push the price up quite a bit. The uk have a major reduction in beef cattle in the last 2 years. Italy will continue to buy the quality weinlings. Egyptian and lybian markets are being developed and will hopefully be up and running by then. Hopefully it will all lead to a rise in factory prices and ultimately a rise in price for primary producers.

Black Smoke

reilig wrote: »

I agree. The smaller guys will be the greatest affected. I don't see animals dieing or being starved to death though. There are enough options out there to keep animals fed. It will cost money, but its not like the 1960's or 1970's when there was less of an option to import feed.

I think with a lot of calves sold this autumn, cattle for grass will be scarce on the ground next spring and it will push the price up quite a bit. The uk have a major reduction in beef cattle in the last 2 years. Italy will continue to buy the quality weinlings. Egyptian and lybian markets are being developed and will hopefully be up and running by then. Hopefully it will all lead to a rise in factory prices and ultimately a rise in price for primary producers.

I think you are correct in your outlook. Good forward weanlings 350kgs and upwards are selling quite well at the moment. Great trade in Ennis yesterday for them, despite the fodder situation. Smaller weanlings, generally being off loaded by lads too tight in fodder, are back a lot in price. I reckon the nice 250 to 280kg char or lim bull weanling is a great buy now, if you have enough or near enough fodder, and the cash/credit to suplement with concentrates over the winter. These animals will be in demand come grass time next spring.

redzerologhlen

We were adding up the cost of keeping a suckler cow today in our discussion group. Most lads are in the burren and outwintering and we all had to agree on the figures. It came to €460 on the figures we were using for it. Now it could be up or down from that but nothing dramatic I would say, it makes you think. Just do it...you better bring a bottle of something to soften the blow to the lads back west!!

Tipp Man

redzerologhlen wrote: »

We were adding up the cost of keeping a suckler cow today in our discussion group. Most lads are in the burren and outwintering and we all had to agree on the figures. It came to €460 on the figures we were using for it. Now it could be up or down from that but nothing dramatic I would say, it makes you think. Just do it...you better bring a bottle of something to soften the blow to the lads back west!!

Redzer would you mind giving a little detail on how that €460 was reached? What made it up? you'd keep a dairy cow cheaper

Does this prove though that most suckler lads should be taking their weanlings onto the factory? It would make better use of your resources as for every hundred acres you would have less cows which seem to me to be the major cost in suckling

pakalasa

redzerologhlen wrote: »

We were adding up the cost of keeping a suckler cow today in our discussion group. Most lads are in the burren and outwintering and we all had to agree on the figures. It came to €460 on the figures we were using for it. Now it could be up or down from that but nothing dramatic I would say, it makes you think. Just do it...you better bring a bottle of something to soften the blow to the lads back west!!

At a guess I taught it would be more like €350. Do you include the cost of rearing the weanling in that?

redzerologhlen

Tipp Man wrote: »

Redzer would you mind giving a little detail on how that €460 was reached? What made it up? you'd keep a dairy cow cheaper

Does this prove though that most suckler lads should be taking their weanlings onto the factory? It would make better use of your resources as for every hundred acres you would have less cows which seem to me to be the major cost in suckling

It was including everthing and I dont have a list so I might leave something out.

Silage including fert, 9 bales a head at 20e. 180e
Fert for grazing 60e
Vet costs + dosing 30e
Accomadation 80e
Slurry 20e
Those are the ones I remember the prices for and the ones which are variable from far to farm. I cant remember the figures for the rest of them but we spent 2 hours going through it all to get that price. Fuel for both jeep and tractor and upkeep, transport costs, concentrates, electricity, water etc were included aswell. Sorry now I didnt write it all down. I would suspect ours isint that much but I know it will be well over 300e, must sit down one of the nights with the calculator and hopefully I wont give myself too much of a fright.

redzerologhlen

pakalasa wrote: »

At a guess I taught it would be more like €350. Do you include the cost of rearing the weanling in that?

Ya, given the nature of the land around here we agreed it would be better to base our profit and costs on the cow rather then the acreage if you get me. The cow is the only production unit on the farm so all costs were put down against her.

bbam

redzerologhlen wrote: »

We were adding up the cost of keeping a suckler cow today in our discussion group. Most lads are in the burren and outwintering and we all had to agree on the figures. It came to €460 on the figures we were using for it. Now it could be up or down from that but nothing dramatic I would say, it makes you think. Just do it...you better bring a bottle of something to soften the blow to the lads back west!!

When I saw your post I looked back at the last figures we did up with cows.. I'd say your underestimating it... In 2009 we had it at that not including cost of grass/slurry
With other bits and pieces we had a suckler calf costing €520 hitting the ground on day 1. Looking back I'd say its probably nearer to €600
This is just a few lads knocking costs together rather than any professional, but its enough to make you think !!

redzerologhlen

bbam wrote: »

When I saw your post I looked back at the last figures we did up with cows.. I'd say your underestimating it... In 2009 we had it at that not including cost of grass/slurry
With other bits and pieces we had a suckler calf costing €520 hitting the ground on day 1. Looking back I'd say its probably nearer to €600
This is just a few lads knocking costs together rather than any professional, but its enough to make you think !!

It could go up or down 100e handy enough depending on the farm but those were the figures we used and everyone in the group agreed they were fairly correct.

DMAXMAN

I know of a guy locally her who is very sharp about figures and records every cost against the relevant enterprise and his figure for keeping a suckler for a year is some where above 600

bob charles

I dont keep suck cows but I guesstimate that it costs 500+ every year when replacement costs are also taking into account, add in Interest, a expensive bull and hey presto all your weanlings would want to be making close on a very round figure

mrs browns boys

DMAXMAN wrote: »

I know of a guy locally her who is very sharp about figures and records every cost against the relevant enterprise and his figure for keeping a suckler for a year is some where above 600

im for the mart so with the 80 suckler if it costing 600 a cow:mad:

Juniorhurler

Just back in from the opening evening weanling show and sale at Carnew mart. Between myself and the auld fella we had 15 cattle out. The heifers made,

KG €
420 1360 (Champion Heifer at the show)
420 1260
346 970
2@ 383 820 each
370 830

The bulls made

KG €
410 1190
406 1000
452 1390
392 1200
374 1020
416 1150
428 900
452 1325
410 920

Happy enough with the prices. They averaged over the 1000 per hd so thats the aim. Didn't see them selling so well six weeks ago. Disappointed with they weighed though. Found it hard to put weight on cattle this year with the weather.

just do it

Juniorhurler wrote: »

Just back in from the opening evening weanling show and sale at Carnew mart. Between myself and the auld fella we had 15 cattle out. The heifers made,

KG €
420 1360 (Champion Heifer at the show)
420 1260
346 970
2@ 383 820 each
370 830

The bulls made

KG €
410 1190
406 1000
452 1390
392 1200
374 1020
416 1150
428 900
452 1325
410 920

Happy enough with the prices. They averaged over the 1000 per hd so thats the aim. Didn't see them selling so well six weeks ago. Disappointed with they weighed though. Found it hard to put weight on cattle this year with the weather.

Good returns there juniorhurler, particularly given the difficult summer. It's easy have 1 or 2 good ones but to average over the €1,000/head is great going:).

1chippy

good prices junior hurler. seems your able to hold consistency within the group.
As for keeping the suckler one of the speakers in Derrypatrick last week it cost over 600 to keep a suckler. If you think about it properly when you hear how there is no money in suckling you can see why. what sort of figure do any of you reckon would be needed to achieve a reasonable living?

say you were to get 950 average for weanlings (it would be great if i could get it). that would mean 350 after the cost of the cow.
say a wage of 35000
.9 calves per cow alive at weaning
that would mean 112 weanlings
Thats 125 cows to carry for the year
Talking aprox 160 acres of good land well run
a serious calving unit
a twelve bay double min slatted unit
and a lot of luck

I know these are really back of cig box calculations and open for critiscm but when they are there its kinda of shocking to think of the investment in land time and pure hassle it would make you wonder why?
i'm hearing a profit figure of 150 on store to finished animal anyone any info on the costs say to keep and finish those said weanlings instead of selling on.

just do it

€600 per cow was the consensus on here a few years back when this issue was debated.

For me whilst it is a useful figure it is the wrong animal indicator of profitability. It should the cost per animal sold per year i.e. if you sell weanlings you should use the cost per weanling sold, if you finish it should be the cost per finished animal.

Take the typical example of the suckler farmer who sells weanlings. Low conception rates, holding weanlings as replacements etc aren't factored in the cost per cow whereas they are factored in the cost of weanling sold per year.

Regardless of what indicator you use just itemising all your costs is the most valuable thing you can do. Then you can look at each individual item and see where there are cost savings to be made.

bob charles

1chippy wrote: »

I know these are really back of cig box calculations and open for critiscm but when they are there its kinda of shocking to think of the investment in land time and pure hassle it would make you wonder why?
i'm hearing a profit figure of 150 on store to finished animal anyone any info on the costs say to keep and finish those said weanlings instead of selling on.

take Junior hurlers the first bull calf at 410 kilos, feed for 150 days at €3 a day = €450 + €75 costs for everything else dosing/vaccines/mortality/interest/haulage/labour = €525 + sale price tonight €1190 = total cost €1715.

after 150 days he would be 650kilos (say 1.6lwg) with a KO of 58% = 377kilos @ €4 a kilo = €1508.

I know my figures are rough but, Do the sensible thing :D

Black Smoke

just do it wrote: »

€600 per cow was the consensus on here a few years back when this issue was debated.

For me whilst it is a useful figure it is the wrong animal indicator of profitability. It should the cost per animal sold per year i.e. if you sell weanlings you should use the cost per weanling sold, if you finish it should be the cost per finished animal.

Take the typical example of the suckler farmer who sells weanlings. Low conception rates, holding weanlings as replacements etc aren't factored in the cost per cow whereas they are factored in the cost of weanling sold per year.

Regardless of what indicator you use just itemising all your costs is the most valuable thing you can do. Then you can look at each individual item and see where there are cost savings to be made.

I almost agree with you but not quite.
The costs should be based on weanling produced or brought successfully to weaning stage. That's because you may keep some for replacements.
So lets say, 20 cows. One dead calf. 19 weaned. 17 sold.
Total costs should be divided by 19. That's my logic in any case.

bogman_bass

bob charles wrote: »

I know my figures are rough but, Do the sensible thing :D

Do the sensible thing and sell them to you Bob?

redzerologhlen

The 460 was including the cost of rearing the calf and was including the price of selling the culls. All the costs associated with keeping the cattle were included.

Tipp Man

Black Smoke wrote: »

I almost agree with you but not quite.
The costs should be based on weanling produced or brought successfully to weaning stage. That's because you may keep some for replacements.
So lets say, 20 cows. One dead calf. 19 weaned. 17 sold.
Total costs should be divided by 19. That's my logic in any case.

Your output is your sale animal be it weanling or fat bull etc. Keeping calves for replacement is a huge cost that gets hidden in your method of calculations. IMO it makes more sense to attribute costs to unit of output sold as Just Do It was saying - to more accurately reflect how your whole suckler operation is doing (assuming static numbers)

In your example say 50% of your herd didn't go in calf 1 year - costs are 500 each and sale is 900 each - so you keep 9 weanlings, 1 died and you sold 10 - you would attribute the costs to the entire 19 weanlings meaning you think you have made a profit of 400 per weanling but when you look at it on a total level you actually have a loss:

Sales: 10 x 900 = 9,000
Costs: 19 x 500 = 9,500
Loss: = 500

And it is the bottom line that matters most

Juniorhurler

just do it wrote: »

Good returns there juniorhurler, particularly given the difficult summer. It's easy have 1 or 2 good ones but to average over the €1,000/head is great going:).

Ah when the rest are sold there just do it the average will probably be very different. There are roughly 40 more to go with some narrow hoors on it too. I am kind of only piggy backing onto the auld lads knowledge and the farming system he has spent 35 years building up. 9 of those were his including the best heifer and the two best bulls so its not me that really deserves the credit.

Juniorhurler

1chippy wrote: »

I know these are really back of cig box calculations and open for critiscm but when they are there its kinda of shocking to think of the investment in land time and pure hassle it would make you wonder why?

I agree with everything that you are saying there 1 chippy in this paragraph.
I work with a fella on about 90 acres of his own farming it part time calving sucklers and bringing them through to a finish. In 1998 he was renting another 160 acres from 5 different "farmers".
Each of the 5 bought a brand new car in 98 while he struggled to with three kids under 5.
He never rented another acre and went back to college part time and is now in a good job since 2004 and selling 55 weanlings a year and by his calculations about 3 times better off financially.

Black Smoke

Tipp Man wrote: »

Your output is your sale animal be it weanling or fat bull etc. Keeping calves for replacement is a huge cost that gets hidden in your method of calculations. IMO it makes more sense to attribute costs to unit of output sold as Just Do It was saying - to more accurately reflect how your whole suckler operation is doing (assuming static numbers)

In your example say 50% of your herd didn't go in calf 1 year - costs are 500 each and sale is 900 each - so you keep 9 weanlings, 1 died and you sold 10 - you would attribute the costs to the entire 19 weanlings meaning you think you have made a profit of 400 per weanling but when you look at it on a total level you actually have a loss:

Sales: 10 x 900 = 9,000
Costs: 19 x 500 = 9,500
Loss: = 500

And it is the bottom line that matters most

What do you expect, with 50% not going in calf? A loss!!!

Do this sum for me.

You have 20 cows.
All calf, ok and all go back in calf ok.
You have 10 heifers, which you decide to keep back because you want to expand the herd.
You have 10 bull weanlings which you sell at €900 each.
Yur total costs for the year were €500 per cow.

So as follows.

Cost 20 cows at €500 each €10,000
Sales 10 bull calves at €900 each €9,000

Ten heifer weanlings kept for breeding and herd expansion.

Tell me, has this farmer mead a profit or a loss?

I say he has made a good profit, but negative cash flow.

What do you think?

Dont be daft

I asked a well known and highly effecient suckler farmer what it was to keep a cow and he quoted 600.

He's based in Laois and runs a continental suckler herd of LM cows and BB/LM bulls. Dont wanna name him, but his initials are RT.

If its costing him 600 I can't imagine there's lads doing it for less.

Tipp Man

Black Smoke wrote: »

What do you expect, with 50% not going in calf? A loss!!!

Do this sum for me.

You have 20 cows.
All calf, ok and all go back in calf ok.
You have 10 heifers, which you decide to keep back because you want to expand the herd.
You have 10 bull weanlings which you sell at €900 each.
Yur total costs for the year were €500 per cow.

So as follows.

Cost 20 cows at €500 each €10,000
Sales 10 bull calves at €900 each €9,000

Ten heifer weanlings kept for breeding and herd expansion.

Tell me, has this farmer mead a profit or a loss?

I say he has made a good profit, but negative cash flow.

What do you think?

You'll have some job convincing your bank manager that that's a profit not even the tax man would be billing you for that:D

Now it is a loss for a good reason - but in the current year it's a loss

But i am interested on how/why you class it as a profit??

Black Smoke

Tipp Man wrote: »

You'll have some job convincing your bank manager that that's a profit not even the tax man would be billing you for that:D

Now it is a loss for a good reason - but in the current year it's a loss

But i am interested on how/why you class it as a profit??

I think Lakill who comes on here is an accountant, and he would explain better.

My understanding is that the change in value of your stock from day 1 of the year (opening stock), less the value of the stock at the end of the year (closing stock) is an intrinsic part of the calculation of your gross profit!

If you retain heifers for breeding your stock value goes up!
It's negative for cash flow, but positive for paper profit calculation!

bob charles

Black Smoke wrote: »

What do you expect, with 50% not going in calf? A loss!!!

Do this sum for me.

You have 20 cows.
All calf, ok and all go back in calf ok.
You have 10 heifers, which you decide to keep back because you want to expand the herd.
You have 10 bull weanlings which you sell at €900 each.
Yur total costs for the year were €500 per cow.

So as follows.

Cost 20 cows at €500 each €10,000
Sales 10 bull calves at €900 each €9,000

Ten heifer weanlings kept for breeding and herd expansion.

Tell me, has this farmer mead a profit or a loss?

I say he has made a good profit, but negative cash flow.

What do you think?

20 live calves sold/replacements from 20 cows year on year, yeah right, I would give a medal to anyone who can do it

Black Smoke

bob charles wrote: »

20 live calves sold/replacements from 20 cows year on year, yeah right, I would give a medal to anyone who can do it

This is a one year theoretical snap shot!:p
How the replacements in this case are handled on paper, when calculating profit or loss is the question?

Tipp Man

Black Smoke wrote: »

I think Lakill who comes on here is an accountant, and he would explain better.

My understanding is that the change in value of your stock from day 1 of the year (opening stock), less the value of the stock at the end of the year (closing stock) is an intrinsic part of the calculation of your gross profit!

If you retain heifers for breeding your stock value goes up!
It's negative for cash flow, but positive for paper profit calculation!

Your thinking is correct technically but paper profit is the greatest load of crap ever and nothing will make a man go broke quicker than paper profit but negative cashflow

Cash is king in nearly every business in the world and for good reason

I tell you how we calculate our profit - on Jan 1st we empty our current account - then ins and outs during the year including tax - whatever is left at 31st December is your real profit - that's how you see if they are really making money - no arbitary numbers like depreciation, stock values and there are a million more. The only thing we use these for is to keep the tax cost down

Not saying its right but thats the way we look at it