Freeman/Strawman

Jimmy the Wheel

phantom_lord wrote: »

The fact you have to resort to a false dictonomy to engineer the answer you want shows the weakness of your position. I don't have to chose between the two choices in your question. Please explain to me what immoral laws in our society these freeman are fighting against exactly?

A dictonomy? Is that were dicks rule the world?


You're trying to equate legality with morality.

One example...The developers and bankers can legally transfer their assets to their wives, to prevent NAMA from taking them.

Legal? Yes.

Moral?


But the freemen only challenge petty crimes, will be your next refrain.

Challenging and dismantling a centuries old legal and revenue collecting system won't be easy, but I suppose people will have to start somewhere.

Do you think your taxes are well spent? We have a perfect societal infrastructure?

Do you agree with the morality of being legally obliged to pay taxes to increase the profits of the bondholders? (to add a couple more examples)

And apologies for the grammar nazism.


Edit; I just noticed this thread on the website...http://tirnasaor.com/forum/topics/can-freeman-knowledge-help

Does it fit your criteria?

Edit/Edit; Can I also point out the barely disguised literalism of someone calling themselves 'Lord' railing against the notion of liberty.

=p


.

clever_name

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Yeah You're Free to Do Coke if you Want, Hell if you want to Shoot Heroin straigh into your Eyballs go for it, I wont stop you, Might try and inform you of the Risks to your Personage and if you still want to do it then Fine, off ya Go Free will and all that.

Ok well I know the risks of meth, might give that a go, what I do in my own home after all. maybe setup a small cooking outfit, no harm to anyone who does not mind getting harmed?

Should I be allowed to do this?, I really do like that laws exist to stop my neighbous from starting a methlab in the shed.


Before this thread is derailed into talk of what drugs people want to do can I ask this question again, is that the aim of the freeman movement? Doing the drugs you want?

Brown Bomber

clever_name wrote: »

Ok well I know the risks of meth, might give that a go, what I do in my own home after all. maybe setup a small cooking outfit, no harm to anyone who does not mind getting harmed?

Should I be allowed to do this?, I really do like that laws exist to stop my neighbous from starting a methlab in the shed.


Before this thread is derailed into talk of what drugs people want to do can I ask this question again, is that the aim of the freeman movement? Doing the drugs you want?

No.

Brown Bomber

phantom_lord wrote: »

The fact you have to resort to a false dictonomy to engineer the answer you want shows the weakness of your position. I don't have to chose between the two choices in your question. Please explain to me what immoral laws in our society these freeman are fighting against exactly?

This is pointless, descended into a spat and it's spoiling the thread for everyone else. Time to call it a night.

That's for questions in a row (at least) you've ducked now.

What I would be interested in though is if you could go and study up on the subject and actually familiarise yourself with the ideas behind it and come back with an informed critical analysis beyond "5 anonymous blokes on t'internet sed'..."

phantom_lord

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This is pointless, descended into a spat and it's spoiling the thread for everyone else. Time to call it a night.

That's for questions in a row (at least) you've ducked now.

What I would be interested in though is if you could go and study up on the subject and actually familiarise yourself with the ideas behind it and come back with an informed critical analysis beyond "5 anonymous blokes on t'internet sed'..."

I hope you realise you still haven't even attempted to dispute the validity of my statement. Thanks for playing though, if you ever manage to find examples that support your argument feel free to come back.

Jimmy the Wheel

phantom_lord wrote: »

I hope you realise you still haven't even attempted to dispute the validity of my statement.thanks for playing though, if you ever manage to find examples that storey your argument feel free to come back.

Have you ever considered a career in politics?

Mahatma coat

clever_name wrote: »

Ok well I know the risks of meth, might give that a go, what I do in my own home after all. maybe setup a small cooking outfit, no harm to anyone who does not mind getting harmed?

Should I be allowed to do this?, I really do like that laws exist to stop my neighbor from starting a methlab in the shed.

What difference is it to You what Your neighbor does in HIS Shed, He's not in your Shed, So long as he maintained a reasonable Safety standard and sorts the Ventilation problems out, Why would you object to him Building his own cookhouse So he can Fvck himself into a Knot on Crystal Meth.

How is he Harming you??
Where has he caused Loss??

would you object if same neighbor started Home Brewing in his Shed so He could Drink himself int a Permenant Stupor???

Before this thread is derailed into talk of what drugs people want to do can I ask this question again, is that the aim of the freeman movement? Doing the drugs you want?

NO, and its not about driving with no Tax and Insurance, its Not about gettin out of Fines, its about being FREE, its about Understanding what it means to be Free, this is a point lost on a lot of people here.

robtri

Mahatma coat wrote: »

What difference is it to You what Your neighbor does in HIS Shed, He's not in your Shed, So long as he maintained a reasonable Safety standard and sorts the Ventilation problems out, Why would you object to him Building his own cookhouse So he can Fvck himself into a Knot on Crystal Meth.

How is he Harming you??
Where has he caused Loss??

would you object if same neighbor started Home Brewing in his Shed so He could Drink himself int a Permenant Stupor???



NO, and its not about driving with no Tax and Insurance, its Not about gettin out of Fines, its about being FREE, its about Understanding what it means to be Free, this is a point lost on a lot of people here.

So what happens when this neighbour is so fcuked off his head with Meth, falls over and hurts himself or Over doses and an ambulence is called, he is brought into hospital for a few weeks while he is fixed up????

all they services cost money.. my money... so his harmless Meth factory now impacts me... is that enough reason to close his factory down by the authorities??????

namloc1980

robtri wrote: »

So what happens when this neighbour is so fcuked off his head with Meth, falls over and hurts himself or Over doses and an ambulence is called, he is brought into hospital for a few weeks while he is fixed up????

all they services cost money.. my money... so his harmless Meth factory now impacts me... is that enough reason to close his factory down by the authorities??????

To be fair you could say the same for alcohol. Look at all the resources that are wasted in hospitals every weekend on eejits coming into A&E pissed out of their minds. If some dude wants to get wasted on homemade crystal meth then I have no problem with it on the understanding that he is doing it with his own resources i.e. that he's not so wasted that he can't work and is claiming social welfare to fund his habit.

Monty Burnz

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Why would you object to him Building his own cookhouse So he can Fvck himself into a Knot on Crystal Meth.

How is he Harming you??
Where has he caused Loss??

I would have no issue with this at all, assuming that he does not require more policing (is he a risk to my family/community due to being drug-addled?) or more medical care.

If he screws himself up to the point where he can't look after himself, are we obliged to spend money and resources looking after him, or do we let him die on the street?

Monty Burnz

Mahatma coat wrote: »

its about being FREE, its about Understanding what it means to be Free, this is a point lost on a lot of people here.

Ok, but your freedom to swing you arm ends at the point where my nose begins. People driving without insurance etc. DO have a negative impact on society, not because they are more dangerous on the road (although they may well be) but because they are not paying into the system that covers everyone else when they are driving. It's the old 'free-rider' problem.

I've no issue with people being taken to task if they are trying to take a free ride at my expense. If they object to that, then they can feck off to the wilderness somewhere and start their own ideal society with no taxes, no police, no fines, and none of the other good or ill that comes with living in a community.

robtri

namloc1980 wrote: »

To be fair you could say the same for alcohol. Look at all the resources that are wasted in hospitals every weekend on eejits coming into A&E pissed out of their minds. If some dude wants to get wasted on homemade crystal meth then I have no problem with it on the understanding that he is doing it with his own resources i.e. that he's not so wasted that he can't work and is claiming social welfare to fund his habit.

to be fair you could... but at the moment alchol is not probhibted.... crystal meth is.. so making it free to use as per MC exmaple.. has a lot of implications for other memebrs of the community.. just pointing out the flaw in MC argument..

Mahatma coat

Lets Not get wound up in the hystronics of
OH but its Illegal, it must be Bad for you

What are the implications for the community of a guy minding his own business in his shed, How is he Harming you?????????

clever_name

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Lets Not get wound up in the hystronics of
OH but its Illegal, it must be Bad for you

What are the implications for the community of a guy minding his own business in his shed, How is he Harming you?????????

It was not just a guy in a shed, it was someone cooking meth, because they have the right to be free. Do you really think that the widespread use of drugs does no harm to anyone but the people taking them? Really? If so come by my place and I will take you on a 15 minute walk and it will change your mind.

Again I think this thread is going of a tangent about drugs, perhaps a general list(if possible) could be posted of the laws that a freeman would be willing to follow?

King Mob

And what about the fumes and possibility of an explosion in the shed?

Would you enforce safety standards in this guys shed when there's a chance it could harm your property/kids?

Mahatma coat

Try readin my posts

What difference is it to You what Your neighbor does in HIS Shed, He's not in your Shed, So long as he maintained a reasonable Safety standard and sorts the Ventilation problems out, Why would you object to him Building his own cookhouse So he can Fvck himself into a Knot on Crystal Meth.

How is he Harming you??
Where has he caused Loss??

would you object if same neighbor started Home Brewing in his Shed so He could Drink himself int a Permenant Stupor???

Freemen believe in some basic principals
Cause no Harm
Cause no Loss

clever_name

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Try readin my posts



Freemen believe in some basic principals
Cause no Harm
Cause no Loss

So do I, I think that is a part of what most people think.

I have read your posts and I have responded with honest opinions and answers, there have also been questions posted that you have not responded to, I could say try readin other peoples posts.:D

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Try readin my posts



Freemen believe in some basic principals
Cause no Harm
Cause no Loss

Oh well then if he says that he'll take care of the ventilation and safety, I'm sure he'll do it. And I'm sure the fact that him being high on meth will have no effect on this.

And notice how most of the "freemen" we've read about seem only to be trying to get away with causing loss and harm.

Mahatma coat

OK, Besides himself, Who has he Caused Loss or Harm to???

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK, Besides himself, Who has he Caused Loss or Harm to???

He puts many people in danger as he has both access to dangerous equipment and chemicals and a meth habit.

So would you be ok with this guy operating his meth lab next door when he's under the influence?

And would you actually just take his word about the safety of his operation?

Stainless_Steel

I used to be up for this freeman stuff back when I was a pot head.

I think it's daft now to be honest. Don't get me wrong they are decent folk (like our posters here) but yee have to admit that they commit petty crimes just to get to court and try prove a point.

It's gas - a freeman is extreme left AND right wing!

clever_name

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK, Besides himself, Who has he Caused Loss or Harm to???

Asked & answered several times...

clever_name

Stainless_Steel wrote: »

I used to be up for this freeman stuff back when I was a pot head.

I think it's daft now to be honest. Don't get me wrong they are decent folk (like our posters here) but yee have to admit that they commit petty crimes just to get to court and try prove a point.

It's gas - a freeman is extreme left AND right wing!

Sounds interesting, can you help filll in what you see are the missing parts of the debate? (sounds like you might have info for the pros & cons)

Mahatma coat

here, forget about Drugs and Drink driving for a minute, we all agree that some people get upset annoyed or angered for Some unfathomable reason about the choices other people make, never understood it meself, but hey Lets not get int a pissin contest about it.

How about this for an example

Homosexuality

In Ireland This was only Decriminalised in 1993 :eek:


How about that Violation of Rights, are people going to argue that it was Morally Right to Ban Homosexual relationships?

Think carefully, cos the Word used inthe legislation was 'Sodomy'

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

here, forget about Drugs and Drink driving for a minute, we all agree that some people get upset annoyed or angered for Some unfathomable reason about the choices other people make, never understood it meself, but hey Lets not get int a pissin contest about it.

That's not the point I'm trying to make, I'm trying to show that this freeman nonsense breaks itself down even on the theoretical level.

In the example above, eventually you have actually have to go onto this meth guys land to ensure that he really has taken safety precautions.
Which is totally against the principle of the whole freeman thing.

So what right is violated by the notion of speed limits?

Mahatma coat

NO, you never have any right to go into his shed, thats another principle

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

NO, you never have any right to go into his shed, thats another principle

But you also have the right to make sure your property and family are safe.

Thus the freeman concept fails on principal.

And in practice it's just a bunch of people trying to get out of social responsibilities and punishments by pretending to be fighting for peoples rights.

robtri

Mahatma coat wrote: »

here, forget about Drugs and Drink driving for a minute, we all agree that some people get upset annoyed or angered for Some unfathomable reason about the choices other people make, never understood it meself, but hey Lets not get int a pissin contest about it.

How about this for an example

Homosexuality

In Ireland This was only Decriminalised in 1993 :eek:


How about that Violation of Rights, are people going to argue that it was Morally Right to Ban Homosexual relationships?

Think carefully, cos the Word used inthe legislation was 'Sodomy'

why should we forget about drugs, drink driving and all the other stuff... cause this always seems to be the argument that has been raised in this thread and other threads here about this and being a freeman....

these have always been the usual ones wheeled out here as examples of where a freeman should be free to do waht he wants....

as to homosexuality, it was decriminalised and its compeltely acceptable in law now... so you dont need to be a freeman to practise homosexuality....

robtri

Mahatma coat wrote: »

NO, you never have any right to go into his shed, thats another principle

even when his actions put you at risk?????
surely as a freeman you have the freedom to ensure your own personal safety.. therefore you should have the right to enter his shed or house at any time to make sure you are not being put at risk...

giant_midget

I have read a little bit into this freeman thing, Some of it makes sence.

The part i dont like or get is this thing where these folk think that their consent is needed for everything.

i.e " i got a parking notice, how do i respond to this?"

advice would be

"send it back, no contract return to sender, i dont understand you etc."



Well what these fools dont realise is that their "consent" is not needed on issues like this :rolleyes:

Buy signing the driving licence application it states that you agree to abide by the road traffic acts and any future amendments, by having a driving licence you abide to such acts...