GYM Help shoulders and muscle im-balance

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

A pullup is one of the most basic exercises known to man.

Hah yeh a very well known bodyweight exercise. Still doesn't mean it's easy or advisable for a beginner.

Can't believe I'm actually entertaining your idiocy.

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

He has responded by saying this is wrong and that is wrong without offering any reasons! Also, suggesting that a beginner with little upper body strength should use a pull up bar is laughable. Pull ups is an advanced exercise. It tells me he knows little about fitness advice.[/QUOTE]

Completely disagree. It absolutely should be the OP's goal to perform pull ups.

If he can't do pull ups unassisted he should still get a chinup bar and use the progression:

1. inverted rows
2. inverted rows with weight added once he can do 10-12
3. chinups
4. weighted chins once he can do 10-12
5. pullups
6. wide grip pullups
7. weighted pullups

BTW, the last thing machines do is teach correct form. Correct form is learned by doing. If someone can only do body weight squats or with an empty bar, that's where they start to learn form. Same goes for any excercise, machines have some uses but are way overused by PTs and gym trainers who see it as an easy way out.

SanoVitae

briankeating wrote: »

BTW, the last thing machines do is teach correct form.

Just so you know, neither dumbbells or barbells teach you correct form...;)

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

Hah yeh a very well known bodyweight exercise. Still doesn't mean it's easy or advisable for a beginner.

So what if a beginner can easily perform a pull up? I've seen it. Do you tell him it's too advanced for him and he should go off and do something else. Your argument is pointless.

SanoVitae

OP - if you do decide to do decide to do chin-ups or pull-ups, make sure they are done using correct form. Avoid kipping pull-ups at all costs. The shoulder joint is very easily injured and difficult to recover from.

Brian010

briankeating wrote: »

Brian010 wrote: »

He has responded by saying this is wrong and that is wrong without offering any reasons! Also, suggesting that a beginner with little upper body strength should use a pull up bar is laughable. Pull ups is an advanced exercise. It tells me he knows little about fitness advice.[/QUOTE]

Completely disagree. It absolutely should be the OP's goal to perform pull ups.

If he can't do pull ups unassisted he should still get a chinup bar and use the progression:

1. inverted rows
2. inverted rows with weight added once he can do 10-12
3. chinups
4. weighted chins once he can do 10-12
5. pullups
6. wide grip pullups
7. weighted pullups

BTW, the last thing machines do is teach correct form. Correct form is learned by doing. If someone can only do body weight squats or with an empty bar, that's where they start to learn form. Same goes for any excercise, machines have some uses but are way overused by PTs and gym trainers who see it as an easy way out.

I didn't say he should avoid pull ups!? A beginner should never start a programme with pull ups but he should absolutely aim to work towards doing them. The average man can only do one pull up so to to suggest that he should start asap is wrong. You are 100% wrong about machines not teaching form. It was one of the reasons they were designed.

Brian010

briankeating wrote: »

So what if a beginner can easily perform a pull up? I've seen it. Do you tell him it's too advanced for him and he should go off and do something else. Your argument is pointless.

If he can do pull ups then fair play and work away at them. The point that you missed perhaps was that he said he had no upper body strength. Therefore, it is safe to assume he is unable to perform a pull up and thus my argument is not pointless. Maybe you should read again....

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

briankeating wrote: »

I didn't say he should avoid pull ups!? A beginner should never start a programme with pull ups but he should absolutely aim to work towards doing them. The average man can only do one pull up so to to suggest that he should start asap is wrong. You are 100% wrong about machines not teaching form. It was one of the reasons they were designed.

If a beginner can do pullups, then he 100%(you seem to like that) should start with a programme involving pullups. If he can't then he should start with inverted rows or chins. Shades of grey, not black and white as you seem to think.

Machines were designed to teach form? What form do they teach exactly, apart from how to perform that particular excercise on that exact machine?

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

If he can do pull ups then fair play and work away at them. The point that you missed perhaps was that he said he had no upper body strength. Therefore, it is safe to assume he is unable to perform a pull up and thus my argument is not pointless. Maybe you should read again....

I'm out.

SanoVitae

Brian010 wrote: »

You are 100% wrong about machines not teaching form. It was one of the reasons they were designed.

Machines don't teach form at all. The movements are guided so you don't have to worry about balance or technique. All that's required for you to concentrate on is proper breathing, rep cadence and the level of intensity used.

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

Dr. Diagnosis here "thinks" slouched shoulders are a result of overstretched back muscles.

Read:

strongphase wrote: »

I think slouched shoulders are usually the result of overstretched back muscles and lack of back strength, tight pec minor and tight anterior delts.

And my name is not Dr. Diagnosis.

Brian010 wrote: »

Sounds like you've adapted his problem to something you think you know about.

I do know about it, I corrected it in myself following the advice I have given.

Brian010 wrote: »

I'll repeat again seeing as you must be simple.

I'm not but thanks for your concern.

Brian010 wrote: »

You expect him to work at pull ups with no upper body strength? He needs a base before he evens begins pulling his body weight up.

That's why I said "inverted rows" and not just pullups on their own.

Brian010 wrote: »

If anything, he should use the assisted pull up bar so that he isn't lifting his ENTIRE body weight. You wouldn't have thought of that though...

You mean the machine? I did think of that, but I don't like machines as previously explained.

Brian010 wrote: »

You don't even know who I am to even question what I know about fitness?!

I never said I know who you are and this is a public fitness forum, everything is open for debate.

Brian010 wrote: »

You are an idiot son.

Thanks for making that clear.

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

The average man can only do one pull up

Yes. So they should work towards doing another one and then another and another.

Do you comprehend?

Brian010

briankeating wrote: »

Brian010 wrote: »

If a beginner can do pullups, then he 100%(you seem to like that) should start with a programme involving pullups. If he can't then he should start with inverted rows or chins. Shades of grey, not black and white as you seem to think.

Machines were designed to teach form? What form do they teach exactly, apart from how to perform that particular excercise on that exact machine?

The 100% jab is childish. Am I supposed to be offended or are you are trying to funny?

Machines were not designed with the exclusive goal of "teaching" form but one of their main goals is to act as guide. Machines are actually useful for beginners because they are often uncertain about the appropriate range of motion and risk overextending or under-extending with free weights. Injuries are likely when we go out of our body's preferred range of motion, and weight machines help ensure it doesn't happen.

That clear enough for you?

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

Yes. So they should work towards doing another one and then another and another.

Do you comprehend?

What's your point? The idea here is that the guy hasn't the strength to work on sets of pull ups therefore he should build strength beforehand.

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

The 100% jab is childish. Am I supposed to be offended or are you are trying to funny?

Machines were not designed with the exclusive goal of "teaching" form but one of their main goals is to act as guide. Machines are actually useful for beginners because they are often uncertain about the appropriate range of motion and risk overextending or under-extending with free weights. Injuries are likely when we go out of our body's preferred range of motion, and weight machines help ensure it doesn't happen.

That clear enough for you?

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

That your stock response when you lose an argument?

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

What's your point? The idea here is that the guy hasn't the strength to work on sets of pull ups therefore he should build strength beforehand.

Are you saying strength can't be improved by doing 1 pullup? 1 pullup is a set in my book.

If your aim is to prove us all wrong then please do it, stop misquoting and nitpicking and generally wrecking the thread, we're trying to give the OP the best advice possible by giving our personal opinions.

Relax.

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

That your stock response when you lose an argument?

No. There is no winning or losing here mate, the OP will choose whichever piece of advice he wants.

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

Are you saying strength can't be improved by doing 1 pullup? 1 pullup is a set in my book.

If your aim is to prove us all wrong then please do it, stop misquoting and nitpicking and generally wrecking the thread, we're trying to give the OP the best advice possible giving our personal opinions.

You're just trying to discredit our knowledge and prove you are the stephen hawking of the fitness world, relax imo.

Lord Almighty you are too complex for your own self! I gave him simple advice. Start on machines to ease in then progress onto free weights. You were too busy loving your free weights and eager to spaff on about complex routines. He is a beginner!!! You actually think my aim is to wreck the thread? Sounds like I'm wrecking you head and you can't handle it. Stephen Hawking of the fitness world?! That is actually quite funny but not sure you intended the comic irony of that joke.

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

Are you saying strength can't be improved by doing 1 pullup? 1 pullup is a set in my book.

This has been your approach to everything I've said! You assume I mean something I never said!

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

I gave him simple advice.

The type of simple advice "personal trainers" give.

"Use the machines, see ya later."

The type of simple advice that eventually ends in the beginner not progressing and stopping using the gym from what i've seen.

Brian010 wrote: »

You were too busy loving your free weights and eager to spaff on about complex routines.

I have not mentioned the term freeweights once in this thread. Or anything close.

I don't use them that much anymore either, I prefer bodyweight exercises but if I had the time to go to a gym I would use freeweights.

Pullups and inverted rows are one of the simplest back exercise routines. How are they complex?

Brian010 wrote: »

You actually think my aim is to wreck the thread? Sounds like I'm wrecking you head and you can't handle it.

Yes you are right I just can't handle the severe lack of rationale i've come across in this thread so far.

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

briankeating wrote: »

The 100% jab is childish. Am I supposed to be offended or are you are trying to funny?

Machines were not designed with the exclusive goal of "teaching" form but one of their main goals is to act as guide. Machines are actually useful for beginners because they are often uncertain about the appropriate range of motion and risk overextending or under-extending with free weights. Injuries are likely when we go out of our body's preferred range of motion, and weight machines help ensure it doesn't happen.

That clear enough for you?

As I said I'm out, I no longer care to argue with you as I will just be repeating myself and will become subject to personal abuse which seems to be your method or arguing. That clear enough for you?

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

The type of simple advice "personal trainers" give.

"Use the machines, see ya later."

The type of simple advice that eventually ends in the beginner not progressing and stopping using the gym from what i've seen.


I have not mentioned the term freeweights once in this thread. Or anything close.

I don't use them that much anymore either, I prefer bodyweight exercises but if I had the time to go to a gym I would use freeweights.

Pullups and inverted rows are one of the simplest back exercise routines. How are they complex?


Yes you are right I just can't handle the severe lack of rationale i've come across in this thread so far.

You don't even go to the gym?!? Right. Cheerio mate.

Brian010

briankeating wrote: »

Brian010 wrote: »

As I said I'm out, I now longer care to argue with you as I will just be repeating myself and will become subject to personal abuse which seems to be your method or arguing. That clear enough for you?

I haven't resorted to personal abuse at all. If you look back the cheap jabs were thrown by others. Sure aren't I Stephen Hawking?!:D I threw a few jabs back but nothing personal.

You have your opinion and I have mine. We could argue all night and it would be pointless. No need to take it seriously!

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

You don't even go to the gym?!? Right. Cheerio mate.

I have been working out and using the gym for over 10 years.

"You don't even go to the gym."

Lol go away.

Brian010

briankeating wrote: »

Brian010 wrote: »

As I said I'm out, I no longer care to argue with you as I will just be repeating myself and will become subject to personal abuse which seems to be your method or arguing. That clear enough for you?

Also, I have to insist you are wrong here. I offered reasons for my arguments and received little by way of reasoned response in return.

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

I have been working out and using the gym for over 10 years.

"You don't even go to the gym."

Lol go away.

I'm joking mate lol. Chill out :P

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

You are an idiot son.

Brian010 wrote: »

I haven't resorted to personal abuse at all.

No need to take it seriously!

.

strongphase

I'm out now aswell.

OP I hope you can find something useful in this thread.

*adds Brian010 to ignore list*

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

.

I admitted I threw a few jabs and so did you. So what? That was clearly a response to a your lack of reasoned response. The "son" was for effect.