GYM Help shoulders and muscle im-balance

dave98

Hey lads, not sure if I am posting this in right location so mods feel free to move. Anyways I joined the gym this week. I have no upper body strenght and wanted to build on this. My personal trainer said my shoulder muscles are imbalanced. When I am using the machine weights, my left arm starts shaking - its not sore, just shakes. Also, my shoulders are pointed in instead of back....how can I fix this?

dave80

dave98 wrote: »

Hey lads, not sure if I am posting this in right location so mods feel free to move. Anyways I joined the gym this week. I have no upper body strenght and wanted to build on this. My personal trainer said my shoulder muscles are imbalanced. When I am using the machine weights, my left arm starts shaking - its not sore, just shakes. Also, my shoulders are pointed in instead of back....how can I fix this?

plenty off back work, rows, chins, facepulls, rear delts raises etc

jive

dave98 wrote: »

Hey lads, not sure if I am posting this in right location so mods feel free to move. Anyways I joined the gym this week. I have no upper body strenght and wanted to build on this. My personal trainer said my shoulder muscles are imbalanced. When I am using the machine weights, my left arm starts shaking - its not sore, just shakes. Also, my shoulders are pointed in instead of back....how can I fix this?

Do dumbbell shoulder presses instead of machine work or using a bar. If you use a bar/machine the imbalance will become even greater because your stronger arm will take over. Using dumbbells will decrease the imbalance in time, most people have one side which is stronger than the other (particularly with shoulder press), it's not something to worry about but like i said using dumbbells will decrease the imbalance.

I don't know what you mean by saying your shoulders are pointed in instead of back so i'll let someone else field that one.

Brian010

I wouldn't do any free weights until you've built up adequate strength on the machines. They will provide you with stability and reduce the risk of injury. If the imbalance is troublesome I would see a physio to make sure you don't have a problem or injury in that area.

jive

Brian010 wrote: »

I wouldn't do any free weights until you've built up adequate strength on the machines. They will provide you with stability and reduce the risk of injury. If the imbalance is troublesome I would see a physio to make sure you don't have a problem or injury in that area.

I disagree. Using free weights which you can manage (i.e. not too heavy - im sure the free weights start at most at 2kg, if not 1kg) you will progress faster than using the machines. Using free weights will also incorporate more stabiliser muscles than machines due to the limited range of motion that you can perform on machines and the fact that you simply push and there is no balancing. Using machines will only create a larger muscle imbalance which may increase your risk of injury when moving onto free weights.

Doug Cartel

Brian010 wrote: »

If the imbalance is troublesome I would see a physio to make sure you don't have a problem or injury in that area.

I'm not so sure about the machines, I think this bit of advice is good. You might not need to go to a physio - a good trainer might do. If it's a big imbalance definitely get somebody who knows what they're talking about to check you out in person and recommend you a way to correct this.

Pace2008

jive wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by saying your shoulders are pointed in instead of back so i'll let someone else field that one.

I'd say their shoulders are rolled forwards instead of pulled back - bad posture, in other words.

jive

Pace2008 wrote: »

I'd say their shoulders are rolled forwards instead of pulled back - bad posture, in other words.

I dont know what advice to give about that :P Stand up straighter i guess. Shouldn't be a problem with shoulder pressing though as your upper back should be pushed against the bench so your shoulders should be in line and up right this way

Remmy

Brian010 wrote: »

I wouldn't do any free weights until you've built up adequate strength on the machines. They will provide you with stability and reduce the risk of injury. If the imbalance is troublesome I would see a physio to make sure you don't have a problem or injury in that area.

Ding ding ding..wrong answer..tell em whats he's won pete..

gymsoldier

dave98 wrote: »

Hey lads, not sure if I am posting this in right location so mods feel free to move. Anyways I joined the gym this week. I have no upper body strenght and wanted to build on this. My personal trainer said my shoulder muscles are imbalanced. When I am using the machine weights, my left arm starts shaking - its not sore, just shakes. Also, my shoulders are pointed in instead of back....how can I fix this?

Just curious to why your paying money for a personal trainer who cant help you out?

Edit: Rounded shoulders is sometimes related to tight pectoralis major.

Transform

dave80 wrote: »

plenty off back work, rows, chins, facepulls, rear delts raises etc

do that above and i hope to got the trainer had you doing some foam rolling (foam rolling at all would be a basic really) and thoracic extensions in some form. Check for shoulder range of motion and get a small ball in on tight areas that may be causing an impingement

what has your trainer suggested?

Khannie

Remmy wrote: »

Ding ding ding..wrong answer..tell em whats he's won pete..

While I'd agree with the sentiment, you're not really helping out with that post.

Brian010

jive wrote: »

I disagree. Using free weights which you can manage (i.e. not too heavy - im sure the free weights start at most at 2kg, if not 1kg) you will progress faster than using the machines. Using free weights will also incorporate more stabiliser muscles than machines due to the limited range of motion that you can perform on machines and the fact that you simply push and there is no balancing. Using machines will only create a larger muscle imbalance which may increase your risk of injury when moving onto free weights.

I agree that dumbbell training is the long term solution to an imbalance in strength. However, the guy said he has no upper body strength and personal trainers always recommend starting on machines. Using machines doesn't create muscle imbalance either. No idea where you got that from. Machines target form and help control the movements thus reducing risk of injury. It would be harder to find proper and consistent form starting on free weights.

Brian010

Remmy wrote: »

Ding ding ding..wrong answer..tell em whats he's won pete..

Good man.

SanoVitae

gymsoldier wrote: »

Just curious to why your paying money for a personal trainer who cant help you out?

Perhaps it's best if the OP sees a physio to see if there is a muscular imbalance.

I actually respect the personal trainer for not giving advice that he/she is not qualified to give.

Far too many personal trainers are doing this, the extent of their knowledge based on what they've seen in DVDs and at seminars. They are passing themselves off as experts in many different fields and people are getting hurt as a result.

A little knowledge, as they say, is a dangerous thing.

WallyGUFC

I sort of have the same problem. I broke my shoulder a few years ago and since then it's always been a fair bit weaker than the good one. Got a proper plan after Xmas and it is improving. Mainly just doing machines but also a small bit with dumbells. Also have the pointy shoulder blades, and the low row, lats and wide grip pullups is what I've been given. 3 weeks in and I already notice the difference.

jive

Brian010 wrote: »

I agree that dumbbell training is the long term solution to an imbalance in strength. However, the guy said he has no upper body strength and personal trainers always recommend starting on machines. Using machines doesn't create muscle imbalance either. No idea where you got that from. Machines target form and help control the movements thus reducing risk of injury. It would be harder to find proper and consistent form starting on free weights.

I explained it in my post. If you use a bar/machine then your stronger side will take over, thus leading to an even greater muscle imbalance. I don't know and don't care what personal trainers recommend - dumbbells will help rectify a muscle imbalance so using machines would NOT be the right thing to do. Machines don't target form - they limit the movement. I already said that i'm sure his gym has 2kg dumbbells or even 1kg - a toddler could use these weights with good form and they don't have any upper body strength either. I don't understand what you mean by saying it would be harder to find proper and consistent form if starting on free weights. Practice makes perfect. Using machines does not make you any better at free weights. Many people use the smith machine to bench and then when they actually go to bench they are not steady at all. If they began with free bench in the first place they would be much better at it by that time if they hadn't started with the assisted bench. The same can be said for the dumbbell press and shoulder press machine.

Brian010

jive wrote: »

I explained it in my post. If you use a bar/machine then your stronger side will take over, thus leading to an even greater muscle imbalance. I don't know and don't care what personal trainers recommend - dumbbells will help rectify a muscle imbalance so using machines would NOT be the right thing to do. Machines don't target form - they limit the movement. I already said that i'm sure his gym has 2kg dumbbells or even 1kg - a toddler could use these weights with good form and they don't have any upper body strength either. I don't understand what you mean by saying it would be harder to find proper and consistent form if starting on free weights. Practice makes perfect. Using machines does not make you any better at free weights. Many people use the smith machine to bench and then when they actually go to bench they are not steady at all. If they began with free bench in the first place they would be much better at it by that time if they hadn't started with the assisted bench. The same can be said for the dumbbell press and shoulder press machine.

My main point is to use machines initially to ease into exercise and activate the muscles. Free weights is absolutely the way forward after a few sessions on the machines. Most machines have two sides (ex. pec deck/pec fly) so you can see where one arm is pushing more than the other unlike on the Smith machine where there is a bar. In terms of form I'm talking about the many people who uses free weights horribly. It's just a thought to get used to the rigid form that machines employ (from a beginner's standpoint). Contrary to what you said machines definitely do target form. That is why you can only move them one way. Of course there are people who don't use machines properly either as well. Maybe a good trainer is the answer!

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

personal trainers always recommend starting on machines.

Because they're told to.

Most gym contracted personal trainers you see floating around gyms have no interest in teaching form and technique either, so it works out well for them.

If a "personal trainer" starts someone off on a machine programme their not worth a penny imo.

Brian010 wrote: »

Using machines doesn't create muscle imbalance either.

Yes it does.

Brian010 wrote: »

Machines target form

No they don't, at all.

Brian010 wrote: »

It would be harder to find proper and consistent form starting on free weights.

That's the point.

OP: Get yourself a doorway pullup bar and a set of stretch bands.

Jarren

OP

read it again

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70472132&postcount=15

it's the best advice IMHO

J

gymsoldier

Brian010 wrote: »

Using machines doesn't create muscle imbalance either.

strongphase wrote: »

Yes it does.

Depends on the machine I feel. I agree that a bilateral machine could, but in the case of unilateral machines I feel they wouldn't.

drdeadlift

I have had many years of shoulder problems,just make sure whoever is looking after you knows what they are talking about getting second opinions can leave you confused.
I had inflammation in my right Supraspinatus tendon the problem lasted over two years making over head and flat pressing movements very hard/sore.The problem started from arm wrestling!
Now that the pain problem is gone i have found that my right arm/tricep is more involved in pressing movements than it need to be,so i am finding keeping the weight moderate helps along with keeping good form.
Give dumbbells a blast for a while they wont mask any of the imbalances between either side.

gymsoldier

drdeadlift wrote: »

I have had many years of shoulder problems,just make sure whoever is looking after you knows what they are talking about getting second opinions can leave you confused.
I had inflammation in my right Supraspinatus tendon the problem lasted over two years making over head and flat pressing movements very hard/sore.The problem started from arm wrestling!
Now that the pain problem is gone i have found that my right arm/tricep is more involved in pressing movements than it need to be,so i am finding keeping the weight moderate helps along with keeping good form.
Give dumbbells a blast for a while they wont mask any of the imbalances between either side.

Did you ever do any subscapularis damage with arm wrestling?

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

Because they're told to.

Most gym contracted personal trainers you see floating around gyms have no interest in teaching form and technique either, so it works out well for them.

If a "personal trainer" starts someone off on a machine programme their not worth a penny imo.

Yes it does.

No they don't, at all.

That's the point.

OP: Get yourself a doorway pullup bar and a set of stretch bands.

You are wrong. Also, you're recommending a pull up bar?!

drdeadlift

gymsoldier wrote: »

Did you ever do any subscapularis damage with arm wrestling?

Never even looked into that

shootermacg

You wouldn't have a desk job by any chance? A lot of people do have a stronger side, if it's not causing you pain then it's probably fine.
The dumbbell advice is good advice, mainly because you need to catch up with your strong side. By using weights the weak side can handle and incrementing accordingly your weak side will catch up.
If you are using barbells (or machines that don't allow independent movement) you'll be making the strong side stronger at the expense of the weak side.
Make sure you are able to handle the rep range with your weaker side.
As far as forward pointing shoulders, that may just be bad posture which may well be cured by making a conscious decision to keep them pulled back.

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

You are wrong. Also, you're recommending a pull up bar?!

What exactly is he wrong about?

Why are you confused about the reccomendation of a pullup bar?

Brian010

briankeating wrote: »

What exactly is he wrong about?

Why are you confused about the reccomendation of a pullup bar?

He has responded by saying this is wrong and that is wrong without offering any reasons! Also, suggesting that a beginner with little upper body strength should use a pull up bar is laughable. Pull ups is an advanced exercise. It tells me he knows little about fitness advice.

strongphase

dave98 wrote: »

Hey lads, not sure if I am posting this in right location so mods feel free to move. Anyways I joined the gym this week. I have no upper body strenght and wanted to build on this. My personal trainer said my shoulder muscles are imbalanced. When I am using the machine weights, my left arm starts shaking - its not sore, just shakes. Also, my shoulders are pointed in instead of back....how can I fix this?

Brian010 wrote: »

you're recommending a pull up bar?!

I think slouched shoulders are usually the result of overstretched back muscles and lack of back strength, tight pec minor and tight anterior delts.

The easiest way for anyone to correct this in my opinion is to get hold of a doorway pullup bar and get working at pullups and inverted rows to strengthen the back, while a set of stretchbands will help to stretch out the tight muscles.

Obviously someone who hasn't a clue about fitness isn't capable of comprehending this so I can understand your confusion.

Brian010 wrote: »

You are wrong.

Explain how i'm wrong. If possible.

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

I think slouched shoulders are usually the result of overstretched back muscles and lack of back strength, tight pec minor and tight anterior delts.

The easiest way for anyone to correct this in my opinion is to get hold of a doorway pullup bar and get working at pullups and inverted rows to strengthen the back, while a set of stretchbands will help to stretch out the tight muscles.

Obviously someone who has not got a clue about fitness would not be mentally capable of comprehending this so I can understand your confusion.

Explain how i'm wrong. Oh wait, you can't.

Dr. Diagnosis here "thinks" slouched shoulders are a result of overstretched back muscles. Who knows they may be but his problem is weak upper body and imbalance in strength. Something a lot of people experience. Sounds like you've adapted his problem to something you think you know about.

I'll repeat again seeing as you must be simple. You expect him to work at pull ups with no upper body strength? He needs a base before he evens begins pulling his body weight up. If anything, he should use the assisted pull up bar so that he isn't lifting his ENTIRE body weight. You wouldn't have thought of that though....

You don't even know who I am to even question what I know about fitness?!

You are an idiot son.

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

Pull ups is an advanced exercise. It tells me he knows little about fitness advice.

A pullup is one of the most basic exercises known to man.

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

A pullup is one of the most basic exercises known to man.

Hah yeh a very well known bodyweight exercise. Still doesn't mean it's easy or advisable for a beginner.

Can't believe I'm actually entertaining your idiocy.

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

He has responded by saying this is wrong and that is wrong without offering any reasons! Also, suggesting that a beginner with little upper body strength should use a pull up bar is laughable. Pull ups is an advanced exercise. It tells me he knows little about fitness advice.[/QUOTE]

Completely disagree. It absolutely should be the OP's goal to perform pull ups.

If he can't do pull ups unassisted he should still get a chinup bar and use the progression:

1. inverted rows
2. inverted rows with weight added once he can do 10-12
3. chinups
4. weighted chins once he can do 10-12
5. pullups
6. wide grip pullups
7. weighted pullups

BTW, the last thing machines do is teach correct form. Correct form is learned by doing. If someone can only do body weight squats or with an empty bar, that's where they start to learn form. Same goes for any excercise, machines have some uses but are way overused by PTs and gym trainers who see it as an easy way out.

SanoVitae

briankeating wrote: »

BTW, the last thing machines do is teach correct form.

Just so you know, neither dumbbells or barbells teach you correct form...;)

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

Hah yeh a very well known bodyweight exercise. Still doesn't mean it's easy or advisable for a beginner.

So what if a beginner can easily perform a pull up? I've seen it. Do you tell him it's too advanced for him and he should go off and do something else. Your argument is pointless.

SanoVitae

OP - if you do decide to do decide to do chin-ups or pull-ups, make sure they are done using correct form. Avoid kipping pull-ups at all costs. The shoulder joint is very easily injured and difficult to recover from.

Brian010

briankeating wrote: »

Brian010 wrote: »

He has responded by saying this is wrong and that is wrong without offering any reasons! Also, suggesting that a beginner with little upper body strength should use a pull up bar is laughable. Pull ups is an advanced exercise. It tells me he knows little about fitness advice.[/QUOTE]

Completely disagree. It absolutely should be the OP's goal to perform pull ups.

If he can't do pull ups unassisted he should still get a chinup bar and use the progression:

1. inverted rows
2. inverted rows with weight added once he can do 10-12
3. chinups
4. weighted chins once he can do 10-12
5. pullups
6. wide grip pullups
7. weighted pullups

BTW, the last thing machines do is teach correct form. Correct form is learned by doing. If someone can only do body weight squats or with an empty bar, that's where they start to learn form. Same goes for any excercise, machines have some uses but are way overused by PTs and gym trainers who see it as an easy way out.

I didn't say he should avoid pull ups!? A beginner should never start a programme with pull ups but he should absolutely aim to work towards doing them. The average man can only do one pull up so to to suggest that he should start asap is wrong. You are 100% wrong about machines not teaching form. It was one of the reasons they were designed.

Brian010

briankeating wrote: »

So what if a beginner can easily perform a pull up? I've seen it. Do you tell him it's too advanced for him and he should go off and do something else. Your argument is pointless.

If he can do pull ups then fair play and work away at them. The point that you missed perhaps was that he said he had no upper body strength. Therefore, it is safe to assume he is unable to perform a pull up and thus my argument is not pointless. Maybe you should read again....

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

briankeating wrote: »

I didn't say he should avoid pull ups!? A beginner should never start a programme with pull ups but he should absolutely aim to work towards doing them. The average man can only do one pull up so to to suggest that he should start asap is wrong. You are 100% wrong about machines not teaching form. It was one of the reasons they were designed.

If a beginner can do pullups, then he 100%(you seem to like that) should start with a programme involving pullups. If he can't then he should start with inverted rows or chins. Shades of grey, not black and white as you seem to think.

Machines were designed to teach form? What form do they teach exactly, apart from how to perform that particular excercise on that exact machine?

Brian?

Brian010 wrote: »

If he can do pull ups then fair play and work away at them. The point that you missed perhaps was that he said he had no upper body strength. Therefore, it is safe to assume he is unable to perform a pull up and thus my argument is not pointless. Maybe you should read again....

I'm out.

SanoVitae

Brian010 wrote: »

You are 100% wrong about machines not teaching form. It was one of the reasons they were designed.

Machines don't teach form at all. The movements are guided so you don't have to worry about balance or technique. All that's required for you to concentrate on is proper breathing, rep cadence and the level of intensity used.

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

Dr. Diagnosis here "thinks" slouched shoulders are a result of overstretched back muscles.

Read:

strongphase wrote: »

I think slouched shoulders are usually the result of overstretched back muscles and lack of back strength, tight pec minor and tight anterior delts.

And my name is not Dr. Diagnosis.

Brian010 wrote: »

Sounds like you've adapted his problem to something you think you know about.

I do know about it, I corrected it in myself following the advice I have given.

Brian010 wrote: »

I'll repeat again seeing as you must be simple.

I'm not but thanks for your concern.

Brian010 wrote: »

You expect him to work at pull ups with no upper body strength? He needs a base before he evens begins pulling his body weight up.

That's why I said "inverted rows" and not just pullups on their own.

Brian010 wrote: »

If anything, he should use the assisted pull up bar so that he isn't lifting his ENTIRE body weight. You wouldn't have thought of that though...

You mean the machine? I did think of that, but I don't like machines as previously explained.

Brian010 wrote: »

You don't even know who I am to even question what I know about fitness?!

I never said I know who you are and this is a public fitness forum, everything is open for debate.

Brian010 wrote: »

You are an idiot son.

Thanks for making that clear.

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

The average man can only do one pull up

Yes. So they should work towards doing another one and then another and another.

Do you comprehend?

Brian010

briankeating wrote: »

Brian010 wrote: »

If a beginner can do pullups, then he 100%(you seem to like that) should start with a programme involving pullups. If he can't then he should start with inverted rows or chins. Shades of grey, not black and white as you seem to think.

Machines were designed to teach form? What form do they teach exactly, apart from how to perform that particular excercise on that exact machine?

The 100% jab is childish. Am I supposed to be offended or are you are trying to funny?

Machines were not designed with the exclusive goal of "teaching" form but one of their main goals is to act as guide. Machines are actually useful for beginners because they are often uncertain about the appropriate range of motion and risk overextending or under-extending with free weights. Injuries are likely when we go out of our body's preferred range of motion, and weight machines help ensure it doesn't happen.

That clear enough for you?

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

Yes. So they should work towards doing another one and then another and another.

Do you comprehend?

What's your point? The idea here is that the guy hasn't the strength to work on sets of pull ups therefore he should build strength beforehand.

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

The 100% jab is childish. Am I supposed to be offended or are you are trying to funny?

Machines were not designed with the exclusive goal of "teaching" form but one of their main goals is to act as guide. Machines are actually useful for beginners because they are often uncertain about the appropriate range of motion and risk overextending or under-extending with free weights. Injuries are likely when we go out of our body's preferred range of motion, and weight machines help ensure it doesn't happen.

That clear enough for you?

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

That your stock response when you lose an argument?

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

What's your point? The idea here is that the guy hasn't the strength to work on sets of pull ups therefore he should build strength beforehand.

Are you saying strength can't be improved by doing 1 pullup? 1 pullup is a set in my book.

If your aim is to prove us all wrong then please do it, stop misquoting and nitpicking and generally wrecking the thread, we're trying to give the OP the best advice possible by giving our personal opinions.

Relax.

strongphase

Brian010 wrote: »

That your stock response when you lose an argument?

No. There is no winning or losing here mate, the OP will choose whichever piece of advice he wants.

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

Are you saying strength can't be improved by doing 1 pullup? 1 pullup is a set in my book.

If your aim is to prove us all wrong then please do it, stop misquoting and nitpicking and generally wrecking the thread, we're trying to give the OP the best advice possible giving our personal opinions.

You're just trying to discredit our knowledge and prove you are the stephen hawking of the fitness world, relax imo.

Lord Almighty you are too complex for your own self! I gave him simple advice. Start on machines to ease in then progress onto free weights. You were too busy loving your free weights and eager to spaff on about complex routines. He is a beginner!!! You actually think my aim is to wreck the thread? Sounds like I'm wrecking you head and you can't handle it. Stephen Hawking of the fitness world?! That is actually quite funny but not sure you intended the comic irony of that joke.

Brian010

strongphase wrote: »

Are you saying strength can't be improved by doing 1 pullup? 1 pullup is a set in my book.

This has been your approach to everything I've said! You assume I mean something I never said!