Enda Kenny wants 5 way election debate

cancercowboy

Mr Kenny said he would be 'quite happy' to engage in a five-way leaders' debate on any television station in either English or Irish.

Speaking in Dublin, Deputy Kenny said he will not exclude political leaders from any televised election debate.

The Fine Gael leader said his newly-elected counterpart in Fianna Fáil was not in a position to dictate the format for any election debates, as the landscape had changed politically.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0127/politics1.html

Check out of the typical spin from RTÉ as well...

dave1982

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny has ruled out taking part in a three-way televised debate with the leaders of Fianna Fáil and Labour.

Enda Kenny has said he will only participate in a debate that involves all five party leaders.

It comes after Micheál Martin, the newly elected leader of Fianna Fáil, challenged Enda Kenny and Eamon Gilmore to a series of debates on RTE, TV3 and TG4 during the General Election.

However Mr Kenny said he does not believe any party leaders should be excluded from taking part in the debate.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kenny-refuses-martin-invite-for-three-way-tv-debate-490951.html#ixzz1CEGMweZw

Don't know if this is a good or bad thing for FG.However i agree all 5 should there for the debate.

Irish Slaves for Europe

its a good thing for the Irish public, but its done for all the wrong reasons, Kenny just wants less airtime

Biggins

As I said in a similar thread elsewhere...

FF definitely want Gerry Adams and SF sidelined.
They DO NOT want to give him a platform so that he can also he equally heard - so don't be surprised when they try to exclude him, his party and the people they might represent.

Glad to see Kenny has more democratic sense and declined the three-way for favouring a five-way instead. Lord knows after 3 failed to be called by-elections, FF are not exactly as democratic as they would like to make themselves out as - and trying to possible shove a certain percentage of a people aside just because they might support a party that is not FF, leads such people then to more desperate measures to be heard!
...And we all know where that road leads and all peace loving people don't want that route!

dicknorris

I think everyone knows why enda does not want a three way debate

MidlandsM

Good call by Kenny -

cancercowboy

Enda Kenny has show he's the better leader once again by ruling out a 3-way debate and instead calling for a 5-way debate, excluding no political leaders. Micheál has just been given a masterclass in one-upmanship.

Micheál has show the hubris and arrogance we've come to expect from Fianna Fail: they really do think they own the country.

This master stroke by Enda Kenny has shown that he really is Taoiseach material. The Taoiseach is a leader of the country, not just his own party. Good on him.

Irish Slaves for Europe

cancercowboy wrote: »

Micheál has just been given a masterclass in one-upmanship.

Micheál has show the hubris and arrogance we've come to expect from Fianna Fail: they really do think they own the country.

Considering SF have been beating FF in the polls recently, it was a big gaff by Martin to exclude them. A very bad start to his leadership. But lets not forgot the real reason Kenny is doing it- to hide from the public.

cancercowboy

dicknorris wrote: »

I think everyone knows why enda does not want a three way debate

Yep, because he wants a 5-way debate instead.

Biggins

Irish Slaves for Europe wrote: »

Considering SF have been beating FF in the polls recently, it was a big gaff by Martin to exclude them. A very bad start to his leadership. But lets not forgot the real reason Kenny is doing it- to hide from the public.

In fairness, I don't think Kenny is hiding from the public. Can you show any credence to this supposition?
I suspect he's being more selective in his appearances, not wishing to give FF heads every opportunity to take pot-shots at him.
He's instead I estimate, being already very tactical political-wise and will be using each upcoming appearance to hammer home specific topics while not wishing to tire the public out with his face in over-saturation.

...And I say the above as a person who is NOT a Kenny fan.

cancercowboy

Irish Slaves for Europe wrote: »

Considering SF have been beating FF in the polls recently, it was a big gaff by Martin to exclude them. A very bad start to his leadership. But lets not forgot the real reason Kenny is doing it- to hide from the public.

How is having a 5-way debate "hiding from the public"? He's been in the Dáil every day in this week's session. It's not his fault the media chooses to not in engage him.

DoesNotCompute

Good move by Enda. Looks like he's finally hired himself some good PR people. He's been laying low during the disastrous events of the last week or two, and now he's back in the news highlighting just how undemocratic FF really are.

jmayo

Even though I hate RTE and their pro ff so called star interviewers who will be managing the debate, I would rather they or TV3 with Vincent Browne get it.

I dispair of the thought that Sky News get it and it is not just because I can't Murdochs operation.

They supposedly want to stream the debate to the entire world.

Even as a proponent of Kenny I can readily admit he comes across really badly in certain media situations, but ffs lets also look at the other muppets.
Martin will trot out total sh**e about how they are not to blame as per usual for ffers, gormless will end up spluttering some sh**e about saving the planet and stags, Gilmore will do his rightous indignation speel only to be followed by some real scary lunatic economic sh** from adams.

Would we really want the entire world to see exactly the calibre of candidates for the leadership of this country ?
Bond rates would soar in the aftermath of such a debate. :rolleyes:

Biggins

cancercowboy wrote: »

How is having a 5-way debate "hiding fromt he public"? He's been in the Dáil every day in this week's session. It's not his fault the media chooses to not in engage him.

Very true - they have been too busy anyway following the latest FF created circus/fiasco!

cancercowboy

Biggins wrote: »

Very true - they have been too busy anyway following the latest FF created circus/fiasco!

Given the clear Fianna Fail bias RTÉ is demostrating I understand why he wouldn't want to speak with them either.

Look at the negative spin of this article:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0127/politics1.html

the title says: "Enda Kenny rules out three-way debate" when it should read "Enda Kenny wants 5-way debate". They are trying to spin it so it looks like Enda is running away from a debate even though he clearly states that he welcomes a debate, but only one that involves all the party leaders.

Irish Slaves for Europe

cancercowboy wrote: »

How is having a 5-way debate "hiding from the public"? He's been in the Dáil every day in this week's session. It's not his fault the media chooses to not in engage him.

Yeah and most people won't see dail sessions. He has not done any interviews in the past 5 or 6 months which a large portion of people will hear, like the late late show etc.

Having a 5 way debate will inevitably mean less air time for him, and he can use more of his time to attack the policies of the other parties.

Irish Slaves for Europe

Biggins wrote: »

In fairness, I don't think Kenny is hiding from the public. Can you show any credence to this supposition?
I suspect he's being more selective in his appearances, not wishing to give FF heads every opportunity to take pot-shots at him.
He's instead I estimate, being already very tactical political-wise and will be using each upcoming appearance to hammer home specific topics while not wishing to tire the public out with his face in over-saturation.

...And I say the above as a person who is NOT a Kenny fan.

To suggest he is being selective in which appearences he makes is naive to the extreme. He is very poor in interviews, can't think on his feet, frequently gets flustered and looks like a deer caught in the headlights whenever he is asked probing questions. He inspires no confidence in the electorate and thats why, even though his party is well out in the lead in the polls, he is still lagging behind Gilmore in the leadership polls.

jank

cancercowboy wrote: »

Given the clear Fianna Fail bias RTÉ is demostrating I understand why he wouldn't want to speak with them either.

Look at the negative spin of this article:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0127/politics1.html

the title says: "Enda Kenny rules out three-way debate" when it should read "Enda Kenny wants 5-way debate". They are trying to spin it so it looks like Enda is running away from a debate even though he clearly states that he welcomes a debate, but only one that involves all the party leaders.

Yea I saw that as well. The title gives the impression that enda is running away from the debate but when you read the article you see Enda wants a 5 party debate...

RTE FF strikes again.

cancercowboy

Irish Slaves for Europe wrote: »

Yeah and most people won't see dail sessions. He has not done any interviews in the past 5 or 6 months which a large portion of people will hear, like the late late show etc.

Having a 5 way debate will inevitably mean less air time for him, and he can use more of his time to attack the policies of the other parties.

Well that's the core problem right there, people should watch the Dail sessionsn instead of being told what to think by RTÉ and other biased spin doctors.

Having a 5 way debate will inevitably mean less air time for him, and he can use more of his time to attack the policies of the other parties.

Really, why is that? Maybe it will be longer debate? Did you ever consider that? Maybe it's not about less air time but about giving people a chance to see all the party leaders at one defending their positions and communicatiing policies. Maybe Enda thinks that if you put all the party leaders up there at once Fine Gael will really shine through as the best choice. It's also the right thing to do, we are a deomocracy after all and Fianna Fáil and Micheál Martin need to be reminded of that fact.

Bottle_of_Smoke

*Snigger* at Martin tying to exclude Sinn Fein.

Anyway it is clear as day what Enda Kenny is up to here.

Martin & Gormley will be beaten down over the previous government

Adams will be attacked for his economic ideas, if he preps well for it then Jerry McCabe/Jean McConville will be brought up.

There's be plenty of noise/bravado/interruptions. Enda Kenny/Gilmore will just have to stay quiet and let the others take each other out.

5 way debates are really frustrating. Same with 4 way debates. 3 ways annoying too.

There should just be 2way debates between each party leader held on diffent nights. Vincent Browne is on 4 nights a week for 90min - there'd be no problem facilitating this.

Irish Slaves for Europe

cancercowboy wrote: »

Well that's the core problem right there, people should watch the Dail sessionsn instead of being told what to think by RTÉ and other biased spin doctors.

Some of us have jobs though, and don't have sky plus or any other means of recording it. The public shouldn't have to jump through hoops to hear what the leader of the opposition has to say, they should be doing everything they can to get their message and policies out there. He should be going on Primetime, Vincent Browne, late late show etc, programs which have high viewing figures and are on at times convenient to most people.

MidlandsM

Irish Slaves for Europe wrote: »

Some of us have jobs though

lucky you:p

cancercowboy

Irish Slaves for Europe wrote: »

Some of us have jobs though, and don't have sky plus or any other means of recording it. The public shouldn't have to jump through hoops to hear what the leader of the opposition has to say, they should be doing everything they can to get their message and policies out there. He should be going on Primetime, Vincent Browne, late late show etc, programs which have high viewing figures and are on at times convenient to most people.

At the end of the day (love that cliché) it's your responsibility to be informed. It's obvious that the main news provider (RTÉ) has a bias. They routinely miscomunicate, spread disinformation and spin news topic in favor of Fianna Fáil. So why should he provide RTÉ with fuel to burn him? Vincent Browne was spurned by Fine Gael many years ago when they declined to let him run for office as a Fine Gael candidate, ever since then he's had an axe to grind. I can't think of a TV news personality that doesn't have an agenda of their own.

Enda Kenny's all over youtube, try FineGaelMedia.

Some people can't wait to talk ****e about Enda Kenny, when all he's ever done, is do what was right. He's a man with a massive amount of integrity and honestly. Yet, every time he goes public outside of the Dáil what he says is warped and twisted by the media. These people who say they don't like Enda Kenny, ever notice that can't tell you why? Ever notice they fail to articulate why? They dislike him because that's what RTÉ told them to think.

I am getting really fed up with people having their noses up the arses of Fianna Fáil when all Fianna Fáil want to do is **** them up the ass. Lets not forget, in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and in 2007 Richard Bruton as Fine Gael's spokesman for Finance warned us on numerous occasions about the housing bubble, the massive inflation, and the unregulated banks. Fianna Fail did not listen and here we are. Fianna Fáil bailed out the banks and buddies using our taxes, now the country is broke to the point that IMF and EU has had to come in and support us. A 1000 young people a week are leaving because there is no future here.

Yet, none of that matters because you don't "like" Enda Kenny. Wake up.

Irish Slaves for Europe

cancercowboy wrote: »

Some people can't wait to talk ****e about Enda Kenny, when all he's ever done, is do what was right. He's a man with a massive amount of integrity and honestly.

Yet, none of that matters because you don't like Enda Kenny. Wake up.

Oh yeah, just like he showed integrity and honesty when he did absolutely nothing about the FG member who got pissed, tried to drive home, and then threatened the career of a garda who stopped him doing so. Kenny had a real chance to show some proper leadership, and to prove FG weren't an old boys club and didn't have the cronyism that FF have, but his silence and lack of action on the matter said it all. He is just as bad as anyone in FF.

Biggins

Irish Slaves for Europe wrote: »

To suggest he is being selective in which appearences he makes is naive to the extreme. He is very poor in interviews, can't think on his feet, frequently gets flustered and looks like a deer caught in the headlights whenever he is asked probing questions. He inspires no confidence in the electorate and thats why, even though his party is well out in the lead in the polls, he is still lagging behind Gilmore in the leadership polls.

Possibly or possibly not. Again I am not a Kenny fan and I too admit there are a few things about him that don't persuade me to take a liking to him - however I still think he's being politically very tactful for calling not just for a 5-way for more democratic means but maybe also for time allotment means too, if he's as bad as others would make out.

What I mean by the latter is that if he was to enter into a five-way, the focus and time of FF (and their on camera, on the spot targeting) would certainly be less and they would have to defend themselves more so than just a three-way in which they could easier confront two party leaders more directly without having the additional worry of being side ambushed/side-tracked by two additional others also.
...And a wise person would know this. Kenny might not know it but could have been informed as to this advantage too in the use of a five-way. Any time Kenny would have "on air" could then just just used deliberately by him more so, to stick to main points without having to have his points diluted and broken up by opposition in more air time that would be available with a three-way, rather than a five-way.

...Its all about tactics and how to use large or little air time to ones best advantage and use it too to avoid ones weaknesses.

fifth

According to breakingnews.ie he's called for a 5 way election debate to include SF and any other major player in the coming elections, as FG felt Eamonn Gilmore was keen to keep Gerry Adams out of the debate.

Enda may not come off too well after these debates but it's in his best interest to take part and not to be seen to shy away from television this close to the election.

cancercowboy

Irish Slaves for Europe wrote: »

Oh yeah, just like he showed integrity and honesty when he did absolutely nothing about the FG member who got pissed, tried to drive home, and then threatened the career of a garda who stopped him doing so. Kenny had a real chance to show some proper leadership, and to prove FG weren't an old boys club and didn't have the cronyism that FF have, but his silence and lack of action on the matter said it all. He is just as bad as anyone in FF.

I'm sorry, how did you know he "did nothing"? In fact he spoke with this TD (PJ Sheehan), who is not running in the 2011 General Election, and told him to apologize. He did. So yeah, you're wrong about that. It is impossible for Enda to control the actions of people with free will. However, he can react and he did. He told him to put it right. The man was 76 years old, drank too much and acted like a Muppet. We've all been there. Glad to see you're throwing stones at glass houses though. It's also good to see you're focusing your anger where it belongs, on an old man who drank to much and not the Fianna Fáil party who's TD was convicted for drink driving, yet they kept him in the party and didn't even censure him. This and you know, commit economic treason.

Also, what does this incident matter compared to countless hours, weeks, months, and years he's put into the Dáil and for his constituents?

d'Oracle

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There should just be 2way debates between each party leader held on diffent nights. Vincent Browne is on 4 nights a week for 90min - there'd be no problem facilitating this.

Vincent Browne is patently incapable of facilitating debate.
His ego ruins any straight forward conversation.

d'Oracle

Also, I like this as a move.

Enda realises that there is benefit to having SF at the table as if they do surge, they will erode the vote of FF more than anybody.

It also says, "look at me, I am the guy who wants everybody in on the act."
or "lets end the 2/3 party stitch up".

Good move.

cancercowboy

Biggins wrote: »

Possibly or possibly not. Again I am not a Kenny fan and I too admit there are a few things about him that don't persuade me to take a liking to him - however I still think he's being politically very tactful for calling not just for a 5-way for more democratic means but maybe also for time allotment means too, if he's as bad as others would make out.

What I mean by the latter is that if he was to enter into a five-way, the focus and time of FF (and their on camera, on the spot targeting) would certainly be less and they would have to defend themselves more so than just a three-way in which they could easier confront two party leaders more directly without having the additional worry of being side ambushed/side-tracked by two additional others also.
...And a wise person would know this. Kenny might not know it but could have been informed as to this advantage too in the use of a five-way. Any time Kenny would have "on air" could then just just used deliberately by him more so, to stick to main points without having to have his points diluted and broken up by opposition in more air time that would be available with a three-way, rather than a five-way.

...Its all about tactics and how to use large or little air time to ones best advantage and use it too to avoid ones weaknesses.

Sorry, what are "those things" please articulate why you don't like Enda Kenny.

Biggins

cancercowboy wrote: »

Sorry, what are "those things" please articulate why you don't like Enda Kenny.

I would but - with the greatest of respect - those are separate issues not in line with the theme of this thread.
My own feelings on Kenny have been expressed already in other threads many times anyway.

ei.sdraob

It be entertaining to watch SFers tie themselves in knots :P

heh, they've changed the title of the story now


I was saying this all last night. Why oh why should Martin be a main party in these debates seeing as out of all the parties, FF has absolutely ZERO chance of being in any new government. Kenny is 100% correct. Don't give FF the platform and the publicity, they don't deserve it.

d'Oracle

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

FF has absolutely ZERO chance of being in any new government.

Anyone who really believes that, hasn't been paying attention to Irish politics.
I admit its unlikely, but the FF machine has not been this successful down the years by accident.

Make no mistake they are still in this election.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Kenny is 100% correct. Don't give FF the platform and the publicity, they don't deserve it.

I thought FF were part of the 5, no?

greenasgrass

Enda must be going for the Silvio Berlusconi model of politics

Biggins

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

heh, they've changed the title of the story now

Aye, I noticed that! :pac:

d'Oracle

d'Oracle wrote: »

Anyone who really believes that, hasn't been paying attention to Irish politics.
I admit its unlikely, but the FF machine has not been this successful down the years by accident.

Make no mistake they are still in this election.



I thought FF were part of the 5, no?

They won't be in government, end of.

And FF would be part of the 5, of course. What I'm saying is they do not deserve a spot with FG/Labour as a "main contender" party if there was to be a 3-way debate. Am I right in thinking they've polled lower than SF recently?

Biggins

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

...Am I right in thinking they've polled lower than SF recently?

I think so, yes.

geeky

TBH, I'd disagree with the person who lamented the idea of Sky hosting a debate. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like any of our home-grown broadcasters have someone with both the gravitas/nous to chair the debate and the self-discipline not to let their bias run riot. Sky, meanwhile - despite Newscorp's man-love for the tories - organised a very level, well-run debate last year.

d'Oracle

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

They won't be in government, end of.

Cos you say so?
:rolleyes:

I have seen it said before.
The Experts who have been observing politics and elections for donkeys years are not writing FF off. Who are you that you know better?

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

And FF would be part of the 5, of course. What I'm saying is they do not deserve a spot with FG/Labour as a "main contender" party if there was to be a 3-way debate. Am I right in thinking they've polled lower than SF recently?

A 3 way debate is just that.
There is no main contender party. FG and labour will form government if it is expedient to. They are not one entity, they are two distinct parties.

If you think a 3 way debate is a FF/Lab vs FF, you don't get it.

There is only one poll that matters a damn, the general Election.

Sully

For the love of god can we not drag another topic into an 'Is Kenny a good leader?' debate? Far to many of them on these forums.

Tbh, im stunned Labour are bashing FG for this. They also only want a three way debate. Gormley has been party leader of a former government party. SF are riding high in polls and an elected opposition party.

You can't include everyone, but main players should be. Good call by Kenny.

d'Oracle

d'Oracle wrote: »

Cos you say so?
:rolleyes:

I have seen it said before.
The Experts who have been observing politics and elections for donkeys years are not writing FF off. Who are you that you know better?



A 3 way debate is just that.
There is no main contender party. FG and labour will form government if it is expedient to. They are not one entity, they are two distinct parties.

If you think a 3 way debate is a FF/Lab vs FF, you don't get it.

There is only one poll that matters a damn, the general Election.

FF won't be in gov. It would be suicide for anyone to go near them in any sort of coalition, just as it was for the greens. They simply will not be a part of the next government no matter how unpredictable you think politics can be.


I never said FG/Labour were one entity. I don't understand why you're getting so nit-picky about this. What I am saying is that the next gov will almost certainly have FG or Labour or both. And will almost certainly not have FF. So why should FF dictate the terms of the debates? Or even be involved in a three-way debate?

d'Oracle

Sully wrote: »

Tbh, im stunned Labour are bashing FG for this. They also only want a three way debate. Gormley has been party leader of a former government party. SF are riding high in polls and an elected opposition party.

You can't include everyone, but main players should be. Good call by Kenny.

Labour are also exposed to a surge from SF, although maybe not so much as FG.

Also Gilmore, I don't think he....erm....approves of SF as a party.
But is unwilling to say it outright for reasons political.

Biggins

d'Oracle wrote: »

...Also Gilmore, I don't think he....erm....approves of SF as a party.
But is unwilling to say it outright for reasons political.

I agree. I can't put my finger on it but the feeling I get from Gilmore towards Mr Adams and SF, is one of contempt (not for me to say if justified or not. Separate thread/topic anyway) but I'm guessing that Mr Gilmore perhaps then does not want to get into a situation where he has to converse with Mr Adams and his party.

d'Oracle

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

FF won't be in gov. It would be suicide for anyone to go near them in any sort of coalition, just as it was for the greens. They simply will not be a part of the next government no matter how unpredictable you think politics can be.

That is pretty laughable justification. It would be the opposite of suicide to go into coalition with FF. If you could form a coalition with them after the Ballot, then you would be in government. Which is basically the point of the thing. Ergo not suicide. Every party lives for the election. The election after that is of no consequence if you can get in.

The greens just had the most fruitful and effective period of their entire existance. And if they fail to get any seats they have left an indelible mark for their partys ethos and agenda on the nation. Lest we forget, the greens were total critics of FF before the 2007 election.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I never said FG/Labour were one entity. I don't understand why you're getting so nit-picky about this. What I am saying is that the next gov will almost certainly have FG or Labour or both. And will almost certainly not have FF. So why should FF dictate the terms of the debates? Or even be involved in a three-way debate?

You are speculating. The thing is your point is built on something that you cannot know. You are looking at silly polls now and what you think will happen in the future.

I am looking at strength of candidates and the history of elections in the islands. Your statement that "FF will not be in the next gov" is speculative and probably a little hyperbolic.

FF aren't dictating the terms. The networks who set the debates are.
FF should be in a 3 way debate because they are one of the two biggest parties. BY FAR.

It would be anti-democratic to not include any of the 3 largest parties in a 3 way debate. Anti-democratic and pointless.

cancercowboy

Biggins wrote: »

I would but - with the greatest of respect - those are separate issues not in line with the theme of this thread.
My own feelings on Kenny have been expressed already in other threads many times anyway.

So could you give me a link?

flash1080

So Enda wants more leaders at the debate so there will be less focus on him, he's afraid of going head-to-head with Martin and Gilmore. Enda and FG are pathetic. I'm surprised Enda is willing to debate at all, I thought he would stay in hiding until after the election.

Biggins

cancercowboy wrote: »

So could you give me a link?

Use the search function (advanced search) to locate "Enda Kenny" + "Biggins" and you should be able to find my usual waffling somewhere.

cancercowboy

flash1080 wrote: »

So Enda wants more leaders at the debate so there will be less focus on him, he's afraid of going head-to-head with Martin and Gilmore. Enda and FG are pathetic. I'm surprised Enda is willing to debate at all, I thought he would stay in hiding until after the election.

Says you. He is not afraid of going "head to head" with anyone. He goes "head to head" every day he speaks in the Dáil. The fact is Sinn Féin are more of an oponent than Fianna Fáil are.

cancercowboy

Biggins wrote: »

Use the search function (advanced search) to locate "Enda Kenny" + "Biggins" and you should be able to find my usual waffling somewhere.

Sounds like a lot of effort to be honest. You've done so much time ducking the question you could have just replied.

Biggins

cancercowboy wrote: »

Sounds like a lot of effort to be honest. You've done so much time ducking the question you could have just replied.

I respect the forum I'm in. Its not an "After Hours" lighter tone section so I don't wish to sidetrack the thread topic nor annoy the mods.
I hope you can respect that too.