3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

jonnybigwallet

On second thoughts...might need to stretch it by about 20 metres to get all that stuff in. And they should buy a couple of them assault craft from Safehaven to give it a bit more oomph!

kikidelvin

better for them to have purchased a couple of cruise ships ,more suited for the work they do.

sparky42

kikidelvin wrote: »

better for them to have purchased a couple of cruise ships ,more suited for the work they do.

Oh funny man:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I thought the next addition to the fleet was meant to be a multirole vessel. Hopefully something with a bit of clout like the Absalon class. Also....I understand the smaller opvs need replacing, wirh a similar shallow draft vessel for operating in estuaries and closer to shore than the P60's are able to do. Not sure what Babcock have to offer. Maybe potential to do a 10 metre stretch on the P60 design and add a helideck and hanger plus extra space for a company of army personnel and hospital module etc. Would be a pretty good solution and make a decent flagship without breaking the bank. Probably a good idea to beef up the arnaments as well with a five inch gun and some missiles and torpedos. Kind of a poor mans destroyer!

You mean the Arrowhead proposal, I mean it's not based on the 60's design but that's what you are suggesting, and even then given it was meant to be split builds I'd hate to see what the costs would be for 1 hull (given a baseline wasn't going to hit the 250 million mark anyway). If the 31 project actually happens then it might have been feasible to buy a hull in a larger production run.


As is I wonder what you could get from South Korea for example for the money we're talking about?

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

You mean the Arrowhead proposal, I mean it's not based on the 60's design but that's what you are suggesting, and even then given it was meant to be split builds I'd hate to see what the costs would be for 1 hull (given a baseline wasn't going to hit the 250 million mark anyway). If the 31 project actually happens then it might have been feasible to buy a hull in a larger production run.


As is I wonder what you could get from South Korea for example for the money we're talking about?

SK would have to make sense from a price point of view compared to the British yards, but then they still went with Babcock for OPVs and SK would have been an option for them too if they looked into it.

Somehow though, I cant see them using SK, or the likes of GRSE in India for some reason or other.However, I'd be interested to see what a licenced Huitfeld or Absalon would be priced at coming fro that area. I know if I was HHI or Daewoo I'd be bending over backwards to shave pennies off with a view to getting a foothold in Europe.

jonnybigwallet

Daewoo seem like a pretty competent outfit. I'd be happier with MEKO though. Could cost a bundle to go with the latter. Maybe ask Appledore for a sub Arrowsmith stretch version of existing design of P60?

Heraldoffreeent

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Daewoo seem like a pretty competent outfit. I'd be happier with MEKO though. Could cost a bundle to go with the latter. Maybe ask Appledore for a sub Arrowsmith stretch version of existing design of P60?

Wha?

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

SK would have to make sense from a price point of view compared to the British yards, but then they still went with Babcock for OPVs and SK would have been an option for them too if they looked into it.

Somehow though, I cant see them using SK, or the likes of GRSE in India for some reason or other.However, I'd be interested to see what a licenced Huitfeld or Absalon would be priced at coming fro that area. I know if I was HHI or Daewoo I'd be bending over backwards to shave pennies off with a view to getting a foothold in Europe.

While they went with Babcock, the situation has changed somewhat since then, I mean nobody knows how Brexit will turn out but there will be repercussions. Then there's the issue that the yard we have used isn't likely to be around by the time the EPV builder is selected, not with the 31 program paused.


As to who it might be, honestly given the state of any of the Indian defence projects I wouldn't go with them (how did they manage to collapse a Goliath crane onto their own workshop?), SK should be an option I would say, though I suppose they did have issues for the RFA hulls...


As to a likely selection I'd have to wonder if we'd end up with a European builder?

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

While they went with Babcock, the situation has changed somewhat since then, I mean nobody knows how Brexit will turn out but there will be repercussions. Then there's the issue that the yard we have used isn't likely to be around by the time the EPV builder is selected, not with the 31 program paused.


As to who it might be, honestly given the state of any of the Indian defence projects I wouldn't go with them (how did they manage to collapse a Goliath crane onto their own workshop?), SK should be an option I would say, though I suppose they did have issues for the RFA hulls...


As to a likely selection I'd have to wonder if we'd end up with a European builder?

Yes, I think a European Builder would be a Brexit repercussion.

sparky42

According to the Navy's Facebook page, Shaw will be handed over in September.

jonnybigwallet

Odd. I thought it was almost ready to be handed over weeks ago. And what about the main forward facing gun? Is that being fitted by the builder or at Haulbowline? Hope there have been no problems with the sea trials. Would be better if Appledore fit the weapons and hand over a completed item rather than doing the latter in Cork. Don't want to screw up the guarantee just to save a few bob or shave a week or two off the schedule.

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Odd. I thought it was almost ready to be handed over weeks ago. And what about the main forward facing gun? Is that being fitted by the builder or at Haulbowline? Hope there have been no problems with the sea trials. Would be better if Appledore fit the weapons and hand over a completed item rather than doing the latter in Cork. Don't want to screw up the guarantee just to save a few bob or shave a week or two off the schedule.

She's been doing sea trials since then. As to the 76mm it will be done in Cobh when she's here, not the first time we've done it here (think both the 50's had theirs mounted here). Think it's not being done there due to the nature of the P64's unplanned order, wouldn't be surprised if we could get the schedule to line up between OTO and Appledore.

jonnybigwallet

Completely off topic for this thread I know, but read somewhere recently that the DF have now retired the Scorpion tanks. Why the hell do that? Its not as if they are clapped out from warfaring activities surely, and they would be very pricey to replace. Sure even the Brits have about 150 still in service I believe. And they are a top class piece of kit!

Leonidas BL

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Completely off topic for this thread I know, but read somewhere recently that the DF have now retired the Scorpion tanks. Why the hell do that? Its not as if they are clapped out from warfaring activities surely, and they would be very pricey to replace. Sure even the Brits have about 150 still in service I believe. And they are a top class piece of kit!

But what are they for?

jonnybigwallet

I will have to research that one...but they are IMO....a necessary piece of kit!

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Completely off topic for this thread I know, but read somewhere recently that the DF have now retired the Scorpion tanks. Why the hell do that? Its not as if they are clapped out from warfaring activities surely, and they would be very pricey to replace. Sure even the Brits have about 150 still in service I believe. And they are a top class piece of kit!

Ours were the original engine fit from memory (there was a planned upgrade but the crash saw to that), so it could have been spares. Also they weren't really serving much of a role with us having gone for MOWAG's. There's also the 76mm fume issue that we never dealt with. As for the UK, think they are just in reserve or training not actually in service.

Larbre34

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I will have to research that one...but they are IMO....a necessary piece of kit!

Planning a land war at some stage are we?

The Scorpions are Combat Recon Vehicles that just happened to be tracked, not tanks in any reasonable description and they are now relics. The MOWAG MRV with the 30mm gun are adequate for DF operations.

Leonidas BL

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I will have to research that one...but they are IMO....a necessary piece of kit!

I remember something about them having a very low weight per SQ inch for fighting on boggy Irish land, or something like that anyway. Maybe someone else remembers.
Anyway there should be a new thread started about this. It sounds exciting.

sparky42

Leonidas BL wrote: »

I remember something about them having a very low weight per SQ inch for fighting on boggy Irish land, or something like that anyway. Maybe someone else remembers.
Anyway there should be a new thread started about this. It sounds exciting.

They are low weight, which is why they were used in the Falklands from memory, but really since the original plan was never followed through they never really served much of a purpose, more MOWAGs would have been better imo.

roadmaster

Out of curiosity what can CPV like Orla do that a Beckett cant with its Ribbs?

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

Out of curiosity what can CPV like Orla do that a Beckett cant with its Ribbs?

I suppose for sustained presence operations in low clearance areas?

jonnybigwallet

So...is there a proposal to replace the CPV's as well then? I thought that there was a MRV in the pipeline and that was the end of the fleet upgrade for at least 3 to 5 years? By the way...I notice that the Israelis build some cracking CPV's with a shallow draft in the 750 ton category. I think they might be a bit overspecced for our needs though as the are armed to the teeth with missiles and torpedoes. More the kind of thing ya need when ya have Jonny Arab as yer next door neighbour than for fisheries protection. A handy auld asset nevertheless! Bit the lads in Haulbowline would be well chuffed to get their hands on a couple of them.

source

roadmaster wrote: »

Out of curiosity what can CPV like Orla do that a Beckett cant with its Ribbs?

Well you can't fit a 76mm and 2 20mm guns on a RHIB.

roadmaster

source wrote: »

Well you can't fit a 76mm and 2 20mm guns on a RHIB.

If you are that close to the shore and you need to use a 76 mm gun something has seriously gone wrong

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

So...is there a proposal to replace the CPV's as well then? I thought that there was a MRV in the pipeline and that was the end of the fleet upgrade for at least 3 to 5 years?

Of course there's plans to replace them, they age out just like the other hulls, now it isn't going to happen until after the EPV and most likely the interim WP review are long done, so yeah 4-5 years before we see anything, since the P50's will be hitting their midlife refit as well.

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

Of course there's plans to replace them, they age out just like the other hulls, now it isn't going to happen until after the EPV and most likely the interim WP review are long done, so yeah 4-5 years before we see anything, since the P50's will be hitting their midlife refit as well.

And the CASA replacement also on the fast track, number of large capital spends in the offing.

source

roadmaster wrote: »

If you are that close to the shore and you need to use a 76 mm gun something has seriously gone wrong

Exactly and a couple of RHIBs in that scenario would be extremely lacking in firepower

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

And the CASA replacement also on the fast track, number of large capital spends in the offing.

Yeah I'd say the CASA has bumped the EPV till next year I'd bet.

Larbre34

I don't see why the CASA replacement and EPV cant be procured in parallel. The lead time on both will likely be quite different and that means staged payments on the contracts will probably not conflict with each other down the line, quite apart from the fact the technical input is coming from two different services of the DF. They should get the ball rolling on both procurements, no reason why the CASA comp shouldnt be well advanced by the time the PC-12s are delivered.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't see why the CASA replacement and EPV cant be procured in parallel. The lead time on both will likely be quite different and that means staged payments on the contracts will probably not conflict with each other down the line, quite apart from the fact the technical input is coming from two different services of the DF. They should get the ball rolling on both procurements, no reason why the CASA comp shouldnt be well advanced by the time the PC-12s are delivered.

Looking at the tender, there's not much competition, it's going to be the 295, which means we aren't going to see them until 2021/22 at best given current order book for them. For the EPV I'd say you are likely looking at around the same period at this stage, given the timescale of a design and build, at which point I'd say the payments will be overlapping. And of course there's the political capital costs, with a short time left in the Government lifespan I doubt they will go with both orders, CASA will happen, while EPV might wait until next Government.