A cautionary tale

Graces7

ISDW wrote: »

And if you feed them raw meat, they get a taste for it, and will savage any animal they see:rolleyes:

Nope; but the fact re sheep is one I know to be true. Sadly so.

Most critters do not go round with raw meat exposed after all..
:rolleyes:

TooManyDogs

In my opinion when you blend dogs and humans, particularily children in a household then training needs to be done all around. The dog needs to be taught to allow humans take any food or prey item off him immediately, despite how much it goes against it's nature. But equally children need to be taught to completely leave the dog alone when it's eating, which against is against human nature because we are social eaters. In order for both species to cohabitate successfully together both species must be taught to go against our natures in order to respect the other.

I know I can take anything off any of my dogs, and have done on several occassions. One of the key points missing from this story is that the woman who got hurt (and I feel nothing but sympathy for her) clearly wasn't the respected leader because if she had been she would have been able to get the dog to drop the chicken on command. The pack leader decides when they hunt and if another dog tries to take prey before the leader ok's it then there's consequences and the prey must be dropped. The stupid cats from next door come into my garden while the dogs are there and the dogs have physically caught them twice, I've heard the commotion and gone out into the garden and verbally told them to drop the cat, which they did, and not to give chase when it ran away, which they did. I can also tell them to back off from mice or rats if they spot them in the field. I'm the boss in my house and everyone knows it (including hubby ) but I never take food off the dogs or go near their bowls unless its necessary because its disrespectful, but if I had to I could. My baby will also be taught not to go near my dogs when eating but also how to safely take something off the dogs if it is really necessary.

Graces7

lrushe wrote: »

Dog bite = Automatic pts is a bit hysterical to me, there are a million different reasons that a dog might bite. With 99% of those the blame can be put at the feet of people



Don't be so quick to tar all Irish dog owners with the one brush.



This suggests the dog was either not wired right or the owners missed the signals, most dogs give off a million signals before biting.



I kinda of agree with you here if indeed the dog gave no warning whatsoever.



What do you do in the situation where your dog has picked up something dangerous, how do you take it from them???



Hang on, in your OP you say the only safe dog is a stuffed one, now you say a dog has to be trusted, which is it???

Ours are trained to drop. BUT maybe one day they too will just snap? Always aware of their limitations.

Loving them regardless.

dollydishmop

Graces7 wrote: »

As I have said to others, we have a very poor and very erratic internet connection here and cannot afford more. So please do not accuse of things that are totally beyond my control. Sometimes it is many days before we can get back online and time then is very limited indeed.

We are sure you will understand that. Matters not if not!!

What's with the 'we' thing? Do you have a dual personality?

But seriously, questions have been asked of you, and I have yet to see you answer them.

One poster asked how you would react if one of your dogs stole groceries out of your shopping bag?
Another poster mentioned rural living and the chances of your dog picking up a poisoned carcass...as is a popular method of pest control in rural Ireland.

Graces7 wrote: »

This is why we get heated when we read threads about taking food off dogs, etc. That dog/food relationship is so deep that it ie better not to try that, and to teach children that also. Not ever to touch food that is the dog's.

Would you really sit back and let the dog have it...or would you attempt to remove whatever the dog had?
Seriously, would you stand by and watch your dog ingest poison,and not intervene?

I know that all my dogs have to allow me to take food/items from them....they are *my* rules, and all dogs living here learn to abide them, whether they are my own pet or a foster.

I cannot be sure how my dogs might react to someone else taking a toy or food from them, and perhaps that is the point you are trying (and failing IMHO) to make....but I *am*sure that *I* can take anything from them.

And as for Canada being above reproach on the welfare front....that is far, far from the truth!

Wolfe Tone

My dog drops food on command.

Maybe she is exceptional, but he has never bitten anyone ever.

dollydishmop

dollydishmop wrote: »

But seriously, questions have been asked of you, and I have yet to see you answer them.

One poster asked how you would react if one of your dogs stole groceries out of your shopping bag?
Another poster mentioned rural living and the chances of your dog picking up a poisoned carcass...as is a popular method of pest control in rural Ireland.

I see you have, in time it took me to type, now given answers to these queries.

Alas, perhaps "the family" could have also taught their dogs 'no' and 'drop' too!

ISDW

Graces7 wrote: »

Nope; but the fact re sheep is one I know to be true. Sadly so.

Most critters do not go round with raw meat exposed after all..
:rolleyes:

But do all dogs not have it in them to chase sheep? If the sheep just stood there, I'm sure they wouldn't, but the sheep run, so its a game. So, how does a dog 'go bad'?

Thanks Liz.

Graces7

dollydishmop wrote: »

I see you have, in time it took me to type, now given answers to these queries.

Alas, perhaps "the family" could have also taught their dogs 'no' and 'drop' too!

Again you are missing the point .. They had; the dog "lost it", as any dog can do.

Always be aware...

Graces7

ISDW wrote: »

But do all dogs not have it in them to chase sheep? If the sheep just stood there, I'm sure they wouldn't, but the sheep run, so its a game. So, how does a dog 'go bad'?

Thanks Liz.

Aw comon. you know better than this. A dog may chase but few will attack. Collie here will round up any sheep we meet; cattle also but never attack them. A dog "goes bad" when it loses that control. Blood lust is deep in them.

ISDW

Graces7 wrote: »

Aw comon. you know better than this. A dog may chase but few will attack. Collie here will round up any sheep we meet; cattle also but never attack them. A dog "goes bad" when it loses that control. Blood lust is deep in them.

So again, I come back to the point about feeding raw meat, it awakens that blood lust:D It is a royally known fact, as much of a fact as farmers knowing a dog gone bad.

dollydishmop

Graces7 wrote: »

Aw comon. you know better than this. A dog may chase but few will attack. Collie here will round up any sheep we meet; cattle also but never attack them. A dog "goes bad" when it loses that control. Blood lust is deep in them.

Hope they're your cattle & sheep that your collie is rounding up? And its not just randomly rounding up livestock on walks

That in itself would earn your dog a bad reputation around here or possibly a lead injection. :eek:

Whispered

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

, we have a very poor and very erratic internet connection here and cannot afford more. So please do not accuse of things that are totally beyond my control.

You know you spend too much time on boards when you can guess at a persons answer before they make it.

My post was not about how often you are on, but how you pick and choose which posts to respond to, and ignore others you have no answer to. You do that in every thread you get involved in. Your right to do so of course, but, as you like to say yourself

very revealing indeed

dollydishmop wrote: »

What's with the 'we' thing? Do you have a dual personality?

dollydishmop wrote: »

And as for Canada being above reproach on the welfare front....that is far, far from the truth!

+1 for many years canada has been subject to international protests due to some of their animal welfare laws, particularly surrounding the annual seal slaughter. Perhaps you feel it different if the animals involved do not have 4 legs Graces?

DBCyc

dollydishmop wrote: »

What's with the 'we' thing? Do you have a dual personality?

+1 Reading some of these posts makes my head hurt, and I keep thinking of ...



On topic - this sums it all up for me...

TooManyDogs wrote: »

In my opinion when you blend dogs and humans, particularily children in a household then training needs to be done all around. The dog needs to be taught to allow humans take any food or prey item off him immediately, despite how much it goes against it's nature. But equally children need to be taught to completely leave the dog alone when it's eating, which against is against human nature because we are social eaters. In order for both species to cohabitate successfully together both species must be taught to go against our natures in order to respect the other.

Discodog

Some of this thread is like going back to the middle ages when animals could be bought to Court & were expected to testify in their defence. Needless to say that silence was considered a proof of guilt.

You wouldn't prosecute a child because it is deemed to be too underdeveloped to understand the law & right from wrong. Yet we prosecute a dog for the same reason. Like the child the dog is totally dependant on how it is reared & nurtured. But we punish the dog & not the owner.

I would be deeply worried about any of my dogs requiring rescuing & ending up with the OP for fear that they could so easily be misunderstood. I really wanted to go though point by point & comment on where I disagree with the OP but I would be here all night. However the following comments by the OP are either wrong, misguided, misinformed & even contradictory.

"ANY dog can turn bad. The only safe dog is a stuffed toy.
We would never, ever try to take food given off a dog
The Canadians have learned from their history that a dog has to be able to be trusted.
Had there been no one around she would have been killed.
our dogs are trained to NO! And they obey; always.
Ours are trained to drop. BUT maybe one day they too will just snap? Always aware of their limitations.
Simply it snapped as ANY DOG can do. ANY DOG."

peasant

Graces7 wrote: »

And of course a dog can become dangerous; this is why farmers shoot dogs that have once attacked a sheep.

There is no way a dog that has done that can be allowed to survive. Ulness you are a sentimental and unrealistic person of course.

Graces7 wrote: »

Actually, until my first dog, only a few years ago, I did not know that only male dogs cock their legs:)

So much for the "wisdom of others"


On topic:

A dog, every dog, any dog ...deep down it still is a carnivorous hunter with hunting instincts that spark into life given the right (wrong) circumstances.

A responsible dog owner knows this and keeps the dog away from temptation.

A reminder of this every now and then probably isn't all that out of place, but for the rest of the nonsense you spout there ...the less said the better.

Wedgie

Originally Posted by Graces7
Actually, until my first dog, only a few years ago, I did not know that only male dogs cock their legs



I'm pretty sure that some bitches cock their legs.

Actually, I've seen it.

Zapperzy

Wedgie wrote: »

Originally Posted by Graces7
Actually, until my first dog, only a few years ago, I did not know that only male dogs cock their legs



I'm pretty sure that some bitches cock their legs.

Actually, I've seen it.

Yes, I used to walk a little terrier bitch who would occasionally cock her leg, or do a half squat, half leg cock sort of thing.

Graces I have responded to this before but it slightly annoys me when you keep slagging off Ireland's record of poor animal welfare and holding canada up on a pedestal, you seem to respond to every statement with a 'typical Ireland' sort of attitude.
While I agree Ireland is in a poor state animal welfare wise, with us being the puppy farming capital of europe and putting down so many dogs, but there are loads and loads of people, (the majority of people on this board for example), who do brilliant work, either by running a rescue, fostering a dog/cat, volunteering at a shelter, donating time/money/resources to a shelter, some donate practically their whole lives to animal welfare, others might just donate their saturday evening trying to catch a dog that is darting in and out of cars, then there are those who just are good pet owners who educate themselves (by means of this board for example) and try to educate others in the best way possible. But there are loads of irish people, (and non-irish living in Ireland), who are working towards making a difference here, and I think it is unfair to tar everyone with the one brush as being 'typical irish attitude'.


I think I sort of get what your trying to say. At the end of the day dogs are animals, domesticated animals but animals at the same time (as are humans too but thats another arguement), I don't think people should forget that.
But it is part of being a responsible owner to train our dogs not to be possesive over food, as there will come a day when we will have to take food off our dog. I had to remove a flattened rabbit from my dog's mouth that he picked up off the road once. If I needed to I can pick up my dog's bowl in the middle of him eating, he will just step back away from it, I can remove tasty chew treats from him. But I am careful, I will watch how he reacts, and I wouldn't let a complete stranger do it. My dog has never ever once shown any possesive tendencies over either food or toys either to other dogs or people, but I still keep it at the back of my head that he has a set of teeth and can use them to do damage.

homerhop

There are one or two more regular posters in this forum who are constantly running Ireland down and I never see anyone pulling them up over it.

Every creature has a breaking point and when we spend day and night around something it may not be as easy as everyone says to spot the signs. I am sure we have all known people who have gone down a tragic route and thought god I was only talking to them or working on a daily basis with them and never seen it coming.

Graces. I hope your friend makes as good as possible a recovery and wish them all the best, no one likes to see such a tragic thing happen.

lrushe

homerhop wrote: »

There are one or two more regular posters in this forum who are constantly running Ireland down and I never see anyone pulling them up over it.

In fairness I have seen Grace being pulled up over her Ireland bashing on more than one occaison but she continues to do it in favour of the 'rose tinted' view she has on Canada.
Canada is a country I would love to visit someday but as the saying goes, there's no place like home

ppink

Canada is a great country to visit but is not without its own trials and tribulations I would imagine. Every country has its own eegits:D

Anyway Graces has issued a press statement elsewhere so I doubt "they" will be responding here again;)

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

There are one or two more regular posters in this forum who are constantly running Ireland down and I never see anyone pulling them up over it.

I criticise Ireland & I will continue to do so. I accept that some people do care about animal welfare but the majority do not. Lets see if any party mentions it during the election.

But Canada hardly seems to be a paragon of virtue. It's animal law dating from the 1890's seems more Wild West than animal welfare.

There was a time when I would of agreed with a lot of the OP's posts however there is now an erratic, irrational, element to a lot of them that just doesn't make sense to me.

lrushe

Discodog wrote: »

I criticise Ireland & I will continue to do so. I accept that some people do care about animal welfare but the majority do not.

You hold up the UK as the poster child for animal welfare like Grace does Canada, when ironically both countries have their own problems.
Is Ireland without sin, of course not, but I don't understand why someone would live in a country where they despise the 'majority' of people.

Whispered

The difference between how Graces and DD complain about Ireland is important I think. DD will take a public issue and say that Ireland is behind the times in welfare laws, that we have x amount of animals pts/in care/not in care. That we have the worst laws/background/name etc. All things as a nation we should be ashamed of and which many of you here fight against.

Graces takes a post she disagrees with quotes it, and responds with "ah but this is Ireland after all :rolleyes:"

In my view there is a big difference between spouting facts we may not like, and using sarcasm, directed at one poster at a time, to insult the majority of this forum.

The funny thing is, Graces is not canadian, yet I've never seen her quote herself on how she doesn't walk her dogs and how she gives whiskey to one of them, rolling her eyes and blaming her being Irish or not on it.

(and yes I too think it in poor taste to call a poster up on various things said on other threads, but to be honest, Graces holds canada and herself up as a beacon of how animals should be treated, when in reality I think both fall pretty short in some areas.)

Discodog

lrushe wrote: »

You hold up the UK as the poster child for animal welfare like Grace does Canada, when ironically both countries have their own problems.
Is Ireland without sin, of course not, but I don't understand why someone would live in a country where they despise the 'majority' of people.

I live here because I am Irish & it's here that needs improving far more than the UK. No country is perfect & I have criticised much in the UK & fought for better legislation. But I do believe that there is a huge difference in the views of the majorities in both countries.

Every possible comparison shows that the majority of people in the UK do care far more about animal welfare than those in Ireland. They are polls apart when it comes to giving money for animal welfare & lobbying. Blair put a ban on hunting into his first manifesto knowing that the majority would back it. Charities like the RSPCA, Dogs Trust etc get vastly more public donations than their counterparts here - even when you adjust for population. Even Greyhound racing is dying out because the majority will not accept it.

On a good note it looks like the UK will abandon BSL & start focussing on punishing owners rather than dogs.

I will never understand why individuals take it personally when anyone criticises the Country. If you care about animals then clearly my comments are not directed at you.

ISDW

Discodog wrote: »

I live here because I am Irish & it's here that needs improving far more than the UK. No country is perfect & I have criticised much in the UK & fought for better legislation. But I do believe that there is a huge difference in the views of the majorities in both countries.

Every possible comparison shows that the majority of people in the UK do care far more about animal welfare than those in Ireland. They are polls apart when it comes to giving money for animal welfare & lobbying. Blair put a ban on hunting into his first manifesto knowing that the majority would back it. Charities like the RSPCA, Dogs Trust etc get vastly more public donations than their counterparts here - even when you adjust for population. Even Greyhound racing is dying out because the majority will not accept it.

On a good note it looks like the UK will abandon BSL & start focussing on punishing owners rather than dogs.

I will never understand why individuals take it personally when anyone criticises the Country. If you care about animals then clearly my comments are not directed at you.

But it looks as though Cameron will get rid of it, which I think shows that it is a class issue over there.

lrushe

Discodog wrote: »

I will never understand why individuals take it personally when anyone criticises the Country. If you care about animals then clearly my comments are not directed at you.

Look just for the record I didn't even think of you as being one of the posters who criticises Ireland until you put your hand up and it jogged my memory.
It's not so much that I take it personally that someone criticises Ireland, I know Ireland and it's problems, it's just that it can become tiresome to constantly hear "Bad Ireland, in the UK/Canada they do x,y or z which is so much better"

ISDW

lrushe wrote: »

Look just for the record I didn't even think of you as being one of the posters who criticises Ireland until you put your hand up and it jogged my memory.
It's not so much that I take it personally that someone criticises Ireland, I know Ireland and it's problems, it's just that it can become tiresome to constantly hear "Bad Ireland, in the UK/Canada they do x,y or z which is so much better"

It was only very recently, when someone put your name I rushe, that I realised what it was, I always thought it was L rushe, and didn't get the connection:rolleyes: (need an embarassed smilie)

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

I always thought it was L rushe,

No you're right,
L is the initial of my first name
Rushe being my surname

Not v.imaginative but there you go

ISDW

lrushe wrote: »

No you're right,
L is the initial of my first name
Rushe being my surname

Not v.imaginative but there you go

Oh, I thought it was supposed to be a derivative of Irish, see, I'm seeing things now when they aren't there:)

lrushe

ISDW wrote: »

Oh, I thought it was supposed to be a derivative of Irish, see, I'm seeing things now when they aren't there:)

Damn, shoulda said that, would of made my username more clever