A cautionary tale

Graces7

When folk say that they trust their dog utterly, we hold back. family in Canada have four decades of breeding and also rescue work with dogs and here we tend to trust their experience. Hard as it can be.

Family always got their milk and eggs from a lady who keeps hens and a cow there.

She also had a pair of Great Danes; and hobby bred them. Time and again, she was advised not to let the (entire) male run loose among the chickens, to be told " Oh I know my dog and he would never attack a hen.."

Last week we heard that she is in hospital, one arm savaged to the bone. Still assessing ?nerve damage?

She was milking the cow and a hen wandered in and male dog grabbed it. She tried to take the squawking bird off the dog.. and he attacked her.

A pet dog she knew and loved. That is now of course dead.

ANY dog can turn bad. The only safe dog is a stuffed toy.

This is why we get heated when we read threads about taking food off dogs, etc. That dog/food relationship is so deep that it ie better not to try that, and to teach children that also. Not ever to touch food that is the dog's.

To take no risks. To respect the dog-ness of a dog.

Whispered

What "we" get heated?

She didn't take food from the dog, she took live prey. There is a huge difference. Although, I remember at approx 13/14 years old having a lurcher, he attacked a cat, severly damaged it with a bite, before I knew what was happening. It took only a stern word from me for him to stop the attack, such was his training and the depth of his respect. I know he was an exceptional dog though, I do realise that. I would say that a dog who attacks his owner to that extent has behaviour issues, ones which would surely have shown signs. Unfortunately though, we often miss signs our dogs give us, especially when we trust them 100%.

No matter how many different ways you look at it, for the dogs safety, every dog I have come through the house learns respect around food. This includes my being able take "food" items should I need to ( you never know what they might pick up). No matter how many cautionary tales, I believe it to be in the dogs best interest and in my best interest, for the dog to have respect around food.

We play games with food, food possesive dogs start on carrots they learn drop a carrot, get a meat treat, we progress slowly and over time problems begin to fade. Most of them get to the point where when food is taken from them, they look excitedly a me to see what lovely thing I'm going to replace it with. Obviously this will not work with a very hungry dog, so the time needs to be chosen, and signs need to be heeded, but it works and is fun for them.

I have a young dog here only a few days, already he is running to his bed to get his dinner and ignoring my other dog when he eats. This is from a dog who ate EVRYTHING the first and second day he was here. (although maybe I just hav him stuffed to the gills )

seamus

I agree with the theme of your post, and I sympathise with your friend (family member?), I hope she makes a full recovery.

However, on this item:

Graces7 wrote: »

ANY dog can turn bad.

A dog which has bitten or attacked is not necessarily a "bad dog" or has "turned". There's no switch where a good dog suddenly becomes a vicious or bad dog. As you say the dog will always have their inherent dog-ness and often when the conflict has arisen over food/prey it's because that relationship has never previously been challenged. The dog doesn't understand that you're human and he's dog. As far as he's concerned, you are both dogs and he will treat you like another dog.
I think this is the fundamental thing that a lot of people miss (and I have done to my detriment in the past), and presume that there's a difference between a dog attacking a human and a dog attacking another dog. Not to the dog there isn't and if he sees you as competition, he will treat you like it.

Obviously the goal for all owners should be to have a dog that never considers you competition and always submits to you, but every dog has his limit.

Again, I hope all involved make a full recovery and manage to get past their grief. It's very upsetting when your trust in a dog is breached. It must be doubly hard when they've decide to put the dog to sleep over it.

Graces7

seamus wrote: »

I agree with the theme of your post, and I sympathise with your friend (family member?), I hope she makes a full recovery.

However, on this item:

A dog which has bitten or attacked is not necessarily a "bad dog" or has "turned". There's no switch where a good dog suddenly becomes a vicious or bad dog. As you say the dog will always have their inherent dog-ness and often when the conflict has arisen over food/prey it's because that relationship has never previously been challenged. The dog doesn't understand that you're human and he's dog. As far as he's concerned, you are both dogs and he will treat you like another dog.
I think this is the fundamental thing that a lot of people miss (and I have done to my detriment in the past), and presume that there's a difference between a dog attacking a human and a dog attacking another dog. Not to the dog there isn't and if he sees you as competition, he will treat you like it.

Obviously the goal for all owners should be to have a dog that never considers you competition and always submits to you, but every dog has his limit.

Again, I hope all involved make a full recovery and manage to get past their grief. It's very upsetting when your trust in a dog is breached. It must be doubly hard when they've decide to put the dog to sleep over it.

Thank you; some of this is semantics as I am sure you realise; we are saying the same things basically.

The law is stricter in Canada where attacks on people are concerned so there was no decision to be made in this case.

And re the previous post; no it is not just live prey. And on this we will have to agree to differ. We would never, ever try to take food given off a dog and will always teach children that also, lest they see a dog elsewhere with food and think ti too has been trained.

Whispered

Graces7 wrote: »

And re the previous post; no it is not just live prey. And on this we will have to agree to differ. We would never, ever try to take food given off a dog and will always teach children that also, lest they see a dog elsewhere with food and think ti too has been trained.

Of course it is wise to teach children to never go near a dog with food. If an adult took food from my dog, or attempted to, I would tell them to stop too. I'm talking about the dogs owners, people they know and trust.

Don't you think a chicken is live prey? As opposed to something interesting they pick up to eat. With taking food, you are going against one instinct, that of protecting their food. With trying to take live prey from their mouth, you are going against their food protection instinct, their hunting instinct AND dealing with a level of excitement a dog would not usually have around food (that of frenzied attack).

I like the fact that my dog trusts me enough to hand over food if I ask. It's not upsetting for him, it doesn't cause him distress. I think it's great that he doesn't feel the need to "protect" from me. A dog, who in his own home, feels like he needs to guard his resources is usually a stressed dog.

I really think that training a dog to know that food/toy/space guarding in not necessary, is a fundamental element of safely owning a dog.

If you are out walking somewhere with your collie, and she picked up something you didn't want her to eat. What would you do?

luvdogs

id also imagine when the dog grabbed the chicken that the woman panicked to an extent and the situation became heated with the dog becoming overexcited etc, i know my instinct would be to grab the animal from the dog before it was killed but the best thing to do would be to stay calm...very hard though!!! sad story all round!!!

Discodog

Sorry OP but I totally disagree. One of the fundamentals to teach any dog is that food or "prey" is never something to get over attached to. I have always taught my dogs to allow anyone to remove their food, share their food, even steal their food. You could give them a juicy bone & can guarantee that anyone could take it from them without even a raised hackle.

This is very easy to do with a pup but two of mine were adult dogs but it was still pretty easy. When my Greyhound arrived she was a typical starved street dog who bolted her food & then tried to steal the other's food or she would guard her bowl. Now she will happily share food.

We do not know if the lady in question taught her dogs to leave. "No" & "leave" are key commands.

It is very disappointing that an often forward thinking country like Canada should have such a primitive law. An order to destroy a dog should only be made when there is proof that there is no underlying reason why it attacked & proof that there is no remedy to prevent a future attack.

lrushe

I kinda agree a bit with everyone.
I agree that you can never become too complacent when it comes to your dog, think he'll never to x,y or z. At the end of the day dogs can't rationalise, they just react excitedly, fearfully, playfully etc.
However that said I think every dog should be taught to surrender a prized possession when asked. What I like to teach though is to drop the item and back away from it, giving ample space for me to retieve whatever it is my dog has.

peasant

Graces7 wrote: »

A pet dog she knew and loved. That is now of course dead.

Might I inquire as to why the dog is dead?
And why the "of course"?

It was her that acted stupidly, the dog is just a dog and behaved like one.

And why this condescending statment at the end,

To respect the dog-ness of a dog.

when the dog gets put down all the same?

planetX

It's very useful to be able to remove food from a dog, especially if you're walking in the countryside where poison is always a possibility... and chickens, I actually had to retrieve a live chicken from my dog once, but maybe I was just lucky, she dropped it without argument. I agree with the OP that you should never become complacant - I'm always uncomfortable when you hear people saying that their dog is so good with the baby that they can poke and do anything to him etc.

seamus

peasant wrote: »

Might I inquire as to why the dog is dead?

To be fair to Graces, from a quick search Canada seems to be more hysterical about dogs than we are here. Odd, given their strong hunting background.

Basically it appears that if you present in hospital with a dog bite, even from your own dog, the local health services will come and take away the dog and can decide whether or not to euthanise based on the injury. It'll be returned to you if they decide not to proceed.

Also looks like an owner will be given a criminal conviction if their dog bites another person (regardless of whether the dog has a previous history) and there's unlimited financial liability on the owner for damages even if the person bitten is an intruder on your property.

Jaysus, glad I don't own a dog in Canada...

Chris_Heilong

If a dog of mine ever growled at me when eating, I would consider it a big deal, something that would need to be corrected straight away, I know some people that think its a dogs right to growl at people if they get to close to his food, its NOT. I once lifed a live mouse out of my old dogs mouth with out any fear and she was a pitbull, I would never try this with the cat because I know better but thanks to a little training and trust all dogs should feel comfortable surrendering food to its owner.

also I do think dogs know the difference between Humans and other dogs, you can see it when meeting another dog and meeting a new human the dog will act very diffrent, also the way they interact with each other is also vastly different to the way they interact with people. They do however have a sort of Dog language that humans can also use if they know how.

All that said, I think that if a member of the pack he considers under him were to approach the dog while eating I can imagine he would give a warning growl just to let them know to keep their distance and I will allow this for with other dogs but never with a human. I am taking stuff off my new pup all the time and usually give it back a few minutes later, just to let him know the owners hand both give and take away.

LucyBliss

I see Graces point but in our house, I have conditioned the dogs to accept that anything, including food, can be taken or demanded by me or another person. Because one of the dogs showed tendencies towards stubbornness and dominance as a pup, I felt it was important that as much as they tried it on, that it would get them nowhere. And our rescue dog, Rosie, did have some issues in that area when it came to meat tidbits and she and Meg got into a scrap about a year ago over a bit. It was more noise and scuffling than anything else and I broke them up quite easily. There's been no trouble since.

I just felt that it was safer for us and for them that they know their place. I do however approach them in such a way that they see me coming and I lay my hand gently on their back first so I'm not giving them a start and putting them in a position where they react by snapping.

That's interesting about Canadian laws. I didn't know that. The things you learn on the boards.

Wedgie

Graces7 wrote: »

The only safe dog is a stuffed toy.

Don't they generally have a warning attached to them, regarding small parts, danger of choking, etc...?

Graces7

seamus wrote: »

To be fair to Graces, from a quick search Canada seems to be more hysterical about dogs than we are here. Odd, given their strong hunting background.

Basically it appears that if you present in hospital with a dog bite, even from your own dog, the local health services will come and take away the dog and can decide whether or not to euthanise based on the injury. It'll be returned to you if they decide not to proceed.

Also looks like an owner will be given a criminal conviction if their dog bites another person (regardless of whether the dog has a previous history) and there's unlimited financial liability on the owner for damages even if the person bitten is an intruder on your property.

Jaysus, glad I don't own a dog in Canada...

This is not hysteria; that you term it thus is very revealing indeed;)

It is sense and reason.

All the more so because of the hunting background of course. They know dogs well indeed.

Dog ownership is a great responsibility and to be treated thus; as it is not treated in Ireland. Owners there know the law and there is more respect thus. And less abuse also.

Any stray dogs are rounded up; not like here.

And of course a dog can become dangerous; this is why farmers shoot dogs that have once attacked a sheep.

The case in point was a sustained and vicious mauling by a trusted family dog, in sight and sound of the lady's children also.

Not a warning growl or nip. Her arm was literally torn apart.

There is no way a dog that has done that can be allowed to survive. Ulness you are a sentimental and unrealistic person of course.

At the end of the day we each make choices; here and in Canada we never would dream of trying to take food we have given off a dog. And we train our children in the same way. Dogs have rights too;)And these are to be respected.

An interesting rider of course that had the dog been under control? The Canadians have learned from their history that a dog has to be able to be trusted.

What we read here is that many prefer to learn at first hand that fire burns. Rather than heed the wisdom of others..Ah well....

Graces7

luvdogs wrote: »

id also imagine when the dog grabbed the chicken that the woman panicked to an extent and the situation became heated with the dog becoming overexcited etc, i know my instinct would be to grab the animal from the dog before it was killed but the best thing to do would be to stay calm...very hard though!!! sad story all round!!!

The term "panic" does not apply when you have the jaws of a Great Dane embedded in your arm.. screams of pain maybe. Had there been no one around she would have been killed. As it is she is disabled for life.d

Graces7

peasant wrote: »

Might I inquire as to why the dog is dead?
And why the "of course"?

It was her that acted stupidly, the dog is just a dog and behaved like one.

And why this condescending statment at the end,

when the dog gets put down all the same?

You are joking I hope? Ah but this IS Ireland..

Whispered

Graces7 wrote: »

You are joking I hope? Ah but this IS Ireland..

Seriously Graces, do you post here simply to get a reaction? You make a point then don't respond to posts at all, except to be sarcastic and insulting. While you're sitting there giving out about the Irish, can I ask what you personally have done lately to better animal welfare here in Ireland?

Because you are surely not in a position to insult many of the posters here based on their nationality.

(awaits a brush off response to this post, while still ignoring my two previous posts )

lrushe

Graces7 wrote: »

This is not hysteria; that you term it thus is very revealing indeed;)

Dog bite = Automatic pts is a bit hysterical to me, there are a million different reasons that a dog might bite. With 99% of those the blame can be put at the feet of people

Graces7 wrote: »

Dog ownership is a great responsibility and to be treated thus; as it is not treated in Ireland.

Don't be so quick to tar all Irish dog owners with the one brush.

Graces7 wrote: »

Not a warning growl or nip.

This suggests the dog was either not wired right or the owners missed the signals, most dogs give off a million signals before biting.

Graces7 wrote: »

There is no way a dog that has done that can be allowed to survive. Ulness you are a sentimental and unrealistic person of course.

I kinda of agree with you here if indeed the dog gave no warning whatsoever.

Graces7 wrote: »

At the end of the day we each make choices; here and in Canada we never would dream of trying to take food we have given off a dog.

What do you do in the situation where your dog has picked up something dangerous, how do you take it from them???

Graces7 wrote: »

The Canadians have learned from their history that a dog has to be able to be trusted.

Hang on, in your OP you say the only safe dog is a stuffed one, now you say a dog has to be trusted, which is it???

seamus

Graces7 wrote: »

This is not hysteria; that you term it thus is very revealing indeed;)

Of course it's hysteria. Dog bite == government jumps in to seize dog immediately? That's hysteria. Completely unnecessary.

And of course a dog can become dangerous; this is why farmers shoot dogs that have once attacked a sheep.

Farmers shoot dogs that have once attacked sheep because the dog will continue to come back when it knows that there are sheep there. The dog hasn't suddenly become dangerous, it's still the same dog.
But sheep attacks result in material loss for the farmer, and while I wish it didn't have to be that way, the dog doesn't understand this and the owner hasn't had the cop on to secure the dog, so the farmer is entitled to protect his livelihood. Farmer's don't shoot dogs because they're dangerous.

There is no way a dog that has done that can be allowed to survive.

There's no link there though. What's the purpose of putting the dog to sleep? There's a very clear reason why this happened. The owner is the one who made the primary mistake and she's learned a harsh lesson, but she can always move on. The dog also made his own mistake, but now he's been killed and will never get the chance to work with the owner to understand that mistake and move on.

It's my opinion that there are generally only 3 reasons why people put a dog down after an attack;
1. Fear/Ignorance; they're now afraid of the dog and don't know how to move on from the attack
2. Revenge; They believe the dog should "pay" for what it's done
3. Laziness; They know that the dog can be controlled, but they'd prefer to go just get another dog and start again.

Just like with humans, it takes a massive amount of abuse and mistreatment during the dog's formative stages to turn it into a "vicious" dog. A dog who once lashes out and bites someone is no more a vicious killer than a guy who gets riled up in a bar fight and breaks his opponent's nose.

What we read here is that many prefer to learn at first hand that fire burns. Rather than heed the wisdom of others..Ah well....

With all due respect, the woman in your story, despite her being from the Almighty Infallible Canada, has also had to learn the hard way. She didn't heed the wisdom of others, either.

ISDW

seamus wrote: »

With all due respect, the woman in your story, despite her being from the Almighty Infallible Canada, has also had to learn the hard way. She didn't heed the wisdom of others, either.

Seamus, you just made me splutter tea all over my keyboard and screen:p

Slightly different scenario, but I got bitten on the hand last year by a dog and ended up spending 4 nights in hospital. The dog was going for something else, my hand was in the way, nevertheless, that dog put a human in hospital. What happened to the dog? He was here as a rescue, and I was then scared of him, my issue, not the dogs, but it hurt and I think mine was a natural human reaction. However, he wasn't pts, it was my problem, not his, another rescue took him in and he was rehomed and is doing brilliantly, no issues at all. The hospital had to have a record that it was a dog bite, but it wasn't reported to the Gards to have the dog seized, the human in the story made a mistake, not the dog, so the human had the punishment in a way, although 4 nights in Sligo general was actually quite a nice experience (just the 4 'procedures' on the hand weren't) and the dog got to live his doggy life.

seamus

Jaysus, 4 nights for a bite on the hand.

I still manage to underestimate the power in a dog's jaws when it actually wants to do some damage.
In general, if you can come away with a few stitches (or no serious injury), then the dog probably wasn't trying to hurt you.

ppink

seamus wrote: »

With all due respect, the woman in your story, despite her being from the Almighty Infallible Canada, has also had to learn the hard way. She didn't heed the wisdom of others, either.

very true

kind of getting a tad fed up of this have a go at Ireland at seemingly every opportunity to be honest. if you dont like it then assist in trying to change or leave, those are the options open to us all.

On the whole dog food issue I really think it is very foolish to have any animal in the home that you cannot remove its food. Accidents happen, trips, falls, frights etc etc for adults and children and if you cannot rely on "mans best friend" not taking the hand off should you end up too close to its food then it does not bode well. If something happened me and someone else needed to care for my animals they would have to be safe doing it, otherwise it is totally unfair on the humans and animals in question.
Is it also fair that the dog is living in stress trying to protect his food? our dogs are happy and content knowing they will have food and if someone takes it or interrupts their eating that it is not the end of the world for them.

Shanao

It seems that not all Canadians know not to take food from a dog. I spent a few weeks in Canada last year and met countless dogs. Two in particular stand out, an eskimo dog owned by my cousins and a rottweiler owned by the couple living next door. And at a party, the rottie got a mouthful of burger which was quite easily taken off of her, by me, a person she had only met the day previous. And she was quite happy to hand it over. Similiarly, the eskimo was surrounded by kids all day long who quite literally stuck their heads into the dogs bowl (not the most hygienic, but I'd rather give the old immune system a kickstart with such) and the dog never once had a problem.

Not so much as a growl out of either of them. And one was an RB, gosh, wasn't i lucky that their dog was well-trained and that i was able to read the signals. Obviously this is a very sad story where mistakes were made and a dog unfortunately had to be PTS, but there was definitely something overlooked in that situation.

And seriously; all stray dogs in Canada are rounded up? Granted, I didn't go much further than Toronto to Niagra falls and back, but I saw quite a number of leashless, collarless, and certainly ownerless dogs around Toronto alone.
Perhaps we are a bit behind when it comes to animal welfare, but you really cannot compare the people (who are mostly irish as far as i can see) who come on here to discuss their beloved pets with those scumbags abusing their animals.

planetX

Graces - I'd like to know what you'd do if you were unpacking groceries and one of your dogs decides to take possession of something he likes the look of? How far can this respecting the dogs food go? What if the dog gets hold of some of his food before you were ready to give it?
You could end up with a dog that's much more likely to bite you.

ISDW

Graces, can I just ask what breed it is that your family are involved with in Canada, is it Corgis?

Toulouse

Fairly sure it was whippets ISDW

Graces7

Whispered wrote: »

Seriously Graces, do you post here simply to get a reaction? You make a point then don't respond to posts at all, except to be sarcastic and insulting. While you're sitting there giving out about the Irish, can I ask what you personally have done lately to better animal welfare here in Ireland?

Because you are surely not in a position to insult many of the posters here based on their nationality.

(awaits a brush off response to this post, while still ignoring my two previous posts )

As I have said to others, we have a very poor and very erratic internet connection here and cannot afford more. So please do not accuse of things that are totally beyond my control. Sometimes it is many days before we can get back online and time then is very limited indeed.

We are sure you will understand that. Matters not if not!!

The cost of satellite is beyond us totally. Would take away from our welfare work. And that cannot be done.

Ireland is known internationally for its poor record on animal welfare..And rightly so.. Sadly so. If you read some of our past posts you may see that in fact we have been physically attacked and forced out of our home through trying to get better conditions for animals around us. We expect no success given the direly out of date Irish laws and we make no boasts about all we do either. OK? OK. And if you don't like opinions? Fine. Absolutely fine.....

Graces7

planetX wrote: »

Graces - I'd like to know what you'd do if you were unpacking groceries and one of your dogs decides to take possession of something he likes the look of? How far can this respecting the dogs food go? What if the dog gets hold of some of his food before you were ready to give it?
You could end up with a dog that's much more likely to bite you.

Not at all; our dogs are trained to NO! And they obey; always. And we are careful where we unpack food of course; dogs not allowed in kitchen. But NO always works.

As it had done with the Great Dane for all those years; but an entire male is a risk more than an entire female.

What many seem not to understand about this case is that the dog snapped/lost the plot, call it what you will. It was well trained, well cared for. Simply it snapped as ANY DOG can do. ANY DOG. However well trained and well cared for.

And for that reason could never ever be trusted again. it is well known among farmers that dogs can "go bad" like that. That when they start attacking sheep they will go on doing so.

Were any of our dogs to go down that route? When the old man here attacked collie with his stick with no provocation, had she had an aggressive bone in her body she would have attacked him. She did not. She so easily could have; had I not been there for her to run to eg.

ANY DOG can snap. That was the point. Care, watchfulness, care. For children especially.

ISDW

Graces7 wrote: »

Not at all; our dogs are trained to NO! And they obey; always. And we are careful where we unpack food of course; dogs not allowed in kitchen. But NO always works.

As it had done with the Great Dane for all those years; but an entire male is a risk more than an entire female.

What many seem not to understand about this case is that the dog snapped/lost the plot, call it what you will. It was well trained, well cared for. Simply it snapped as ANY DOG can do. ANY DOG. However well trained and well cared for.

And for that reason could never ever be trusted again. it is well known among farmers that dogs can "go bad" like that. That when they start attacking sheep they will go on doing so.

Were any of our dogs to go down that route? When the old man here attacked collie with his stick with no provocation, had she had an aggressive bone in her body she would have attacked him. She did not. She so easily could have; had I not been there for her to run to eg.

ANY DOG can snap. That was the point. Care, watchfulness, care. For children especially.

And if you feed them raw meat, they get a taste for it, and will savage any animal they see:rolleyes:

Graces7

ISDW wrote: »

Graces, can I just ask what breed it is that your family are involved with in Canada, is it Corgis?

As breeders, whippets and greyhounds. As rescuers, trainers etc, etc, all breeds. Here in Ireland, our resources are very limited but both our dogs are rescues; collie and JRT/Basset cross. if it has four legs and barks, we will care for it.... If it has four legs and miaws, also; two rescue cats also.