Creatine Monohydrate ?

Hanley

dartstothesea wrote: »

Just saying water bloat makes you bigger doesn't actually necessarily make it evident why it makes you stronger.

Mass moves mass.

Jarren

1994jacob wrote: »

My friends have been raving about this stuff for weeks and claim its natural, but they also take stuff like jack3d and N.O shotgun (which I don't trust).

I'm considering buying the Creatine Monohydrate but wanted to ask you guys your thoughts on it and if you think its natural (well as natural as this stuff gets) and if you think its worth while.

p.s if you quoting any articles or if you know of any that might be useful can you please link them

Thanks Jacob

Hi Jacob

This website is all about creatine

http://www.creatine-monohydrate.org/

I have never used CM but from what I heard from the other gym users that it will work on some people if the mass gains your are after(not on everyone though)

J

Hanley

May as well do a semi serious post...

-Your muscles run off ATP, as you do reps, your store of ATP goes down.
-Creatine effectively helps replenish your ATP levels during a workout
-The effect isn't huge, but might get a couple of extra reps per set, of 5kg more with same reps

The effect is you do more reps, or lift more weight, so the gains ARE real. In strength terms anyway.

Creatine also pulls water in, making you look bigger/bloated. These size gains aren't permanent.

Creatine does nothing other than facilitate your body and muscles to work slightly harder by giving it more energy to do so.

It doesn't eat your kidneys or liver and it won't run off with your girlfriend behind your back.

Barry.Oglesby

All the time people spend reading broscience websites on how creatine works should be spent lifting or building an orphanage.

dartstothesea

Yo Hanley (and Discus), I only "called out" that never-before-called-out (OMG I must've been wrong then!?) lad because he basically seemed to be rubbishing anything about CM working by replenishing ATP and he tried speaking for everyone, when I knew I'd previously seen you (and maybe g'em IIRC) for example saying it was about ATP and lo and behold you've come and talked about ATP again.

Now maybe the water bloat is how CM refills ATP and not a separate thing, but otherwise I just wanted to ask kevpants exactly what the hell the water bloat does.

Oh I personally haven't noticed CM do anything for me, not even defending it's efficacy or anything here. Beef > creatine :V

gymsoldier

discus wrote: »

I don't believe you or gymsoldier understand how Creatine works on a cellular level

Quote me where I have given false information.

Bottle_of_Smoke

gymsoldier wrote: »

Creatine makes you less flexible?

Well that paper just suggested that for a part of the shoulders and ankles. I was actually just quoting the article for the significant mass gains it mentioned

kevpants

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

All the time people spend reading broscience websites on how creatine works should be spent lifting or building an orphanage.

This

Hanley wrote: »

Mass moves mass.

And this.

I may have been a total smartass in putting it across, this is the internet after all, but what I was trying to say was two things. Exactly what Hanley said in that mass moves mass, so water bloat = more strength. We powerlifters go for the bloat post weight in for a reason, it's not to fill out the lycra!

The point about the chemical effects of creatine is summed up in what Barry said. I can link to tonnes of seemingly flawless scientific explanations of how 500 different products or compunds increase testosterone/GH. I don't have the ability to dispute them, I'm not qualified, but at the same time I'm not going to blindly accept it because I feel like the people advocating it are smarter than I am.

It's that exact effect that the whol bifidus feckinspectacularus yoghurt drink industry is based on, shampoo ads too.

I think it was Barry who linked to a really interesting site where actual chemists pull apart the broscience of the like of Poliquin and the various other fitness experts. A bit of an eye opener.

All any of us here can really speak about is what we've been told by other people who train etc and our own experience. It's up to us to sort out the BS from the sense. All the sciencey stuff as far as I'm concerned is a bit irrelevant because there's so much tainted scientific "proof" out there and secondly because we aren't qualified to debate it (for the most part).

I personally think the new trend of linking to studies on this forum is a bad thing. Firstly because YAAAAWWWWNNNN and secondly zzzzzzzzzz.

deadlybuzzman

heres an idea-someone says "Im thinking of doing X" and then other people instead of quoting studies, either say "yeah my lifts went up 10 kg doing that" or "no its a balls"
if you have to quote studies for the most part either its a self serving study paid for by the manufacturer thus its rubbish or its so subtle an effect you would be far better off stuffing your face with cow rather than reading it-thats my take anyway! :pac:

Doug Cartel

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

heres an idea-someone says "Im thinking of doing X" and then other people instead of quoting studies, either say "yeah my lifts went up 10 kg doing that" or "no its a balls"

I wore a blue T-shirt the other day and set a personal best on my bench press, so if anyone's thinking of wearing a blue T-shirt I recommend them. Last time I failed my set, I was wearing a red T-shirt. Red T-shirts are a balls.

People do all sorts of dumb stuff that they seem to think is beneficial to their fitness, but which probably doesn't actually do a thing. Ask if something works on here, and chances are you'll get a few people who will swear by it - and not just the clueless people. Sometimes it's nice to know what studies have been done.

Burkatron

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Ask if something works on here,and chances are you'll get a few people who will swear by it

Powerbands...that is all!

deadlybuzzman

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I wore a blue T-shirt the other day and set a personal best on my bench press, so if anyone's thinking of wearing a blue T-shirt I recommend them. Last time I failed my set, I was wearing a red T-shirt. Red T-shirts are a balls.

People do all sorts of dumb stuff that they seem to think is beneficial to their fitness, but which probably doesn't actually do a thing. Ask if something works on here, and chances are you'll get a few people who will swear by it - and not just the clueless people. Sometimes it's nice to know what studies have been done.

Just because a study has been done means nothing if its flawed, be it controls, stat analysis or just plain bias.
how many studies have you read about fat loss, insulin spikes, cartinine etc that have just happened to come out around the time certain products have been released? even NO explode and the like have studies that would support their use.
Without getting into some tedious interwebs battle ill happily take my chances doing what the guys bigger than me or lifting more than me are doing because at the end of the day thats what counts
Keep wearing your blue t shirt

Doug Cartel

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

Just because a study has been done means nothing if its flawed, be it controls, stat analysis or just plain bias.

These are all things I cannot judge without reading the bloody paper first.

I hear a bunch of anecdotes, I think to myself "hmmm, has anyone looked at this properly?" I find a paper, I give it a leaf through. It's how I keep myself entertained.

You might just want to do whatever the big boys are doing so you can be like them. That's fair enough, but it's not exactly the same thing as what I'm interested in. I want to look at the studies, I find them interesting. I'm probably not alone. Don't shoot us down because it's not exactly what you want to talk about.

Barry.Oglesby

kevpants wrote: »

All any of us here can really speak about is what we've been told by other people who train etc and our own experience. It's up to us to sort out the BS from the sense. All the sciencey stuff as far as I'm concerned is a bit irrelevant because there's so much tainted scientific "proof" out there and secondly because we aren't qualified to debate it (for the most part).

I personally think the new trend of linking to studies on this forum is a bad thing. Firstly because YAAAAWWWWNNNN and secondly zzzzzzzzzz.

People post studies because these days thanks to google you too can be an academic. Mostly you can tell they've only read the abstract anyway.

But you know what, having some actual science to back up or completely blow out of the water some of the broscience and gym myths that float around is far better than no science at all.

deadlybuzzman

Doug Cartel wrote: »

These are all things I cannot judge without reading the bloody paper first.

I hear a bunch of anecdotes, I think to myself "hmmm, has anyone looked at this properly?" I find a paper, I give it a leaf through. It's how I keep myself entertained.

You might just want to do whatever the big boys are doing so you can be like them. That's fair enough, but it's not exactly the same thing as what I'm interested in. I want to look at the studies, I find them interesting. I'm probably not alone. Don't shoot us down because it's not exactly what you want to talk about.

Im not looking to shoot anyone down or indeed say I know more than anyone else, what I am saying is though that for all the academic studies done about so many many compounds, products and nutritional protocols how many of them have made a real tangible difference?
Maybe Im just a cynic at this stage but after years or reading about things that were going to really make a difference to my size and strength theres a much longer list of duds than what did work and although I did enjoy going through studies much more back in the day, now I wait to hear feedback and let someone else spend their money and test it out before me

Scuba Ste

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

People post studies because these days thanks to google you too can be an academic. Mostly you can tell they've only read the abstract anyway.

But you know what, having some actual science to back up or completely blow out of the water some of the broscience and gym myths that float around is far better than no science at all.

Like you say though most people are reading an abstract that seems kind of, nearly, almost related to something they want to prove and posting it.

I think that kind of stuff just reinforces the broscience instead of refuting it.

Journal articles are a great resources but most people who post them here don't have the expertise to understand or interpret them. And that happens a LOT lately.

tweedledee

Creatine Mono is an excellent product to take,mix it with some water and its great,easy on the stomach and tasteless.it is very natural and recommended by everybody,I take it with ON Gold standard Whey and CLA tabs.Expensive pastime but great combo for bulking up and the CLA rips me up.This stuff costs me more than my car :eek:

drdeadlift

5-10grams after training with lucozade,its a very good supplement.

kevpants

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I wore a blue T-shirt the other day and set a personal best on my bench press, so if anyone's thinking of wearing a blue T-shirt I recommend them. Last time I failed my set, I was wearing a red T-shirt. Red T-shirts are a balls.

That's just a silly comparison. Pretty much all trainers, experienced lifters etc recommend things based on trying things and noting the results.

I'll put it this way, I find nothing wrong with a thread filled with statements like:

I recommend deadlifting against bands, I found they helped my bar speed immensely

I have an issue with statements like:

I recommend deadlifting against bands, the progressive loading stimuli engages your CNS in creating a faster neuron response for a longer period of time

In summary. Piss off with the granular cellular explanations for why you're right and let's all not get above our station.

itsallaboutheL

kevpants wrote: »

In summary. Piss off with the granular cellular explanations for why you're right and let's all not get above our station.

Translated to cat.

dartstothesea

People on here are way, way too concerned about how high or low other people's stations are. Whatever the fυck a station even is. Like they can't bear to see someone else go on as if they know anything, even if they say something that's true, like the examples above.

itsallaboutheL

Sorry don't mind me i was just looking for somewhere to deposit that cat.

Chris89

you lads are all obviously so angry because those creatine protein mikshakes give you moodswings and shrink your willy.

Mellor

Chris89 wrote: »

you lads are all obviously so angry because those creatine protein mikshakes give you moodswings and shrink your willy.

Is that why you don't take them.
better safe, eh

Chris89

yeah man no way would i touch those stuff like all it does is make fake muscle that will just turn in to fat anyway if you miss a day in the gym or run out of powder.

ApeXaviour

Moderate supplementation of creatine might be pretty beneficial in not necessarily gym-related ways. A quick google suggests links with increased cognitive abilities, greater physical ability in old age, lower risk of cancer, parkinsons, heart disease, alzheimers.

As far as I can tell you get much more noticeable effects if you're a vegetarian, not to say it doesn't help us meat eaters too...

kevpants wrote: »

shampoo ads too.

You're on the money there. About 20 years ago there was big hype about these football shaped nano-molecules (buckyballs). The main thing they're used for now? Shampoo and other cosmetics. You know what they do? Sweet f*ck all...

Only there so they can legitimately say there's nanotechnology in their product.

kevpants wrote: »

All the sciencey stuff as far as I'm concerned is a bit irrelevant because there's so much tainted scientific "proof" out there

I'll vouch for this... while the research usually will meet some form of standard, the conclusions drawn are often complete pony.

Mellor

Chris89 wrote: »

yeah man no way would i touch those stuff like all it does is make fake muscle that will just turn in to fat anyway if you miss a day in the gym or run out of powder.

What's fake muscle?

Gains from protien shakes don't disappear after you stop taking it. It's simply a foos source and you body doesn't treat it much different that protein from eggs or meat.

so, you are either a troll or somebody with nonsense opinions based of stuff overheard in the changing room.

FTA69

Chris89 wrote: »

yeah man no way would i touch those stuff like all it does is make fake muscle that will just turn in to fat anyway if you miss a day in the gym or run out of powder.

God above, that's the worst thing about the internet, a serious lack of quality control on comments like these.

Chris89

I would hope it is blindingly obvious to most people that i was in fact, joking.

Hanley

Chris89 wrote: »

I would hope it is blindingly obvious to most people that i was in fact, joking.

Dude's need more creatine to improve their congnitive abilities.