Sexuality and society

Dudess

Was going to put this on the thread re nudity but I think it perhaps warrants its own thread as one of the points on the nudity debate is nudity isn't always sexual.
Basically, there seems quite a lot of talk about Ireland being sexually repressed etc in comparison to other countries. Personally I don't think Ireland is particularly so now - we've come a long way since the "Bishop and the nightie" days. Plus, I'm personally not pushed about the idea of society being so open about sex and sexuality as to cause it to become a mundane part of life like it is (or apparently is) in e.g. Scandinavia - sex to me should be exciting, a little bit inaccessible, have a degree of mystique to it. I don't particularly want it to have a place in society that would cause it to become boring and as routine as a bowl of cornflakes.
Now I'm not for one second saying I believe it should be taboo or hidden away - that's something entirely different, and thanks be to Jesus those days are gone. I'm just saying though I personally like a level of privacy to it, which I think just adds to the intimacy, the intensity of the experience.
If people are into orgies, swinging, sex shows, more power to them, but I don't think to not be into those = an uptight or repressed or prudish person.

WindSock

Bishop and the nightie? I don't think we are as repressed anymore as we like to say we are. Maybe it is different in rural areas, I don't know.

MrStuffins

I can't speak for the whole country, but my generation is not sexually repressed. It really is each to their own as sex and sexuality is a personal thing.

However, i've recently moved abroad and realised that, although we may not be repressed in this country, most of Europe are much more "advanced" than we are.

For instance, when myself and 4 of my female friends were invited to a bar a few weeks ago and it was "The local swingers bar". Apparently they're everywhere here.

My first thought was "Isn't that illegal?". I had no problem with it, it just wasnt "normal" to me.

Darlughda

Well, I am just flabbergasted at the various responses from both men and women on the variety of 'one night stand' threads.

I really do think the late teens-late 20's are the most conservative group in society we have ever seen.

To think, in this day and age, people would consider a woman a 'slut' and 'giving over easy'. Giving over what ffs?

Worse still are the women coming out with this kind of tripe, ' I didn't wan't him to think I was that sort of girl', 'I would not let him have it that quickly' etc etc.

Both sexes using female sexuality as some sort of bargaining tool or currency, that should not be 'given up', or is a commodity to be witheld to show how smart you are for not giving in too easy. And that's before the mad ego men thing of freaking out about a woman having many other sexual partners!!

I find it difficult to empathise with the young woman who uses her sexuality as a coy bargaining tool, and equally with the young fella who somehow thinks it better to have sexual relationship with a woman who is practically a virgin.

Dudess

WindSock wrote: »

Bishop and the nightie?

An edition of The Late Late Show in the 60s where a woman said in response to some query re her nightie on her wedding night that she may not have worn one... which caused much outrage from the pulpit the following Sunday... :pac::eek:

MrStuffins wrote: »

It really is each to their own as sex and sexuality is a personal thing.

Couldn't agree more.

minidazzler

MrStuffins wrote: »

I can't speak for the whole country, but my generation is not sexually repressed. It really is each to their own as sex and sexuality is a personal thing.

However, i've recently moved abroad and realised that, although we may not be repressed in this country, most of Europe are much more "advanced" than we are.

For instance, when myself and 4 of my female friends were invited to a bar a few weeks ago and it was "The local swingers bar". Apparently they're everywhere here.

My first thought was "Isn't that illegal?". I had no problem with it, it just wasnt "normal" to me.

Why would a swingers bar be illegal?

Sexually repressed? Hardly, I agree with windsock, we like to talk ourselves as vestal virgins, but there is a sexual side to this country that is far from repressed.

Dudess

Darlughda wrote: »

I really do think the late teens-late 20's are the most conservative group in society we have ever seen.

Ah, I don't know...

To think, in this day and age, people would consider a woman a 'slut' and 'giving over easy'. Giving over what ffs?

True. Although a lot of the men who have such an issue with it would have no qualms about taking part in one-night stands themselves. If a person isn't into one-night stands themselves and they don't judge others for it, I don't view that as prudishness, just a personal preference - but the aforementioned hypocrisy.... grrr.

Darlughda

Seriously Dudess, even looking back on the amount of 'one night stand' threads. and attitudes from men and women about it on boards alone even within the last 6 months...... and thats Ladies Lounge, the Gentlemens club, after hours, Personal Issues..

Can you really honestly say that the overwhelming response from the late teens to late 20s is not conservative to ultra conservative?

Jayzus, don't ask me for examples!:o

But, as a regular/daily user have you not seen the shocking conservatism from the younger demographic?

MrStuffins

minidazzler wrote: »

Why would a swingers bar be illegal?

Exactly! Why? I was surprised that this was the first thing i thought! Which shows, living in Ireland, we aren;t as open about it as other places.

4zn76tysfajdxp

minidazzler wrote: »

there is a sexual side to this country that is far from repressed.

The underbelly, if you will.

Dimitri

Darlughda wrote: »

Seriously Dudess, even looking back on the amount of 'one night stand' threads. and attitudes from men and women about it on boards alone even within the last 6 months...... and thats Ladies Lounge, the Gentlemens club, after hours, Personal Issues..

Can you really honestly say that the overwhelming response from the late teens to late 20s is not conservative to ultra conservative?

Jayzus, don't ask me for examples!:o

But, as a regular/daily user have you not seen the shocking conservatism from the younger demographic?

I think its more cut and dry there seems to be no middle ground they are either ridiculously conservative or else completely liberated (as I would see it). The completely liberated are judged harshly as being pervs/sluts/easy/not girlfriend material, the last one incidentally makes my blood boil, how on earth can someone be good enough to sleep with but not good enough for a relationship, I'm not implying that every sexual encounter should lead to a relationship but the attitude sickens me.

It is also an attitude an awful lot of my younger friends would share (early twenties) but is refreshingly absent in older friends (late 20's early thirties) what precipitated that change I wonder?

donfers

I agree with dudess except for one important consideration, often people need to be sloshed at least to engage in the first sexual encounter and sometimes subsequent ones, it tends to settle down after a while but I wish people didn't need 25 vodkas to get their kit off as they can become deeply unattractive in that state - I'm not asking for acrobatics, just an ability to not have huge hang-ups about your sexuality in the beginning unless completely pissed

Louisayankee2

I don't know why people are so ignorant about how the family began and continued functioning before refrigeration, and birth control......
Stay with me here a second..
The human female is the only one that can produce milk until the day of her death. Many a husband attests to the pleasure of joining his newest offspring in the delight of the drinking of the breast milk from his wife.

I don't know why more women don't use this bonding hormone of Oxytocin in the bonding of their marriage , too.??
It has definitely been shown to stop infidelity, bond two adults together, and it is still so sought after by men, but women seem to with hold it from their husbands ,as though they don't care to bond with them.
Many husbands I have talked to engaging in this with their wives long after the children have grown into their twenties, tell me it is better than sex! wow.... that is sweet , loving, nurturing and tender between two people.

I think we need more couples who are willing to engage in this wonderful thing called Adult Nursing Relationships....... it is absolutely wonderful.
It has too many benefits to count!:p

MrStuffins

Louisayankee2 wrote: »

I don't know why people are so ignorant about how the family began and continued functioning before refrigeration, and birth control......
Stay with me here a second..
The human female is the only one that can produce milk until the day of her death. Many a husband attests to the pleasure of joining his newest offspring in the delight of the drinking of the breast milk from his wife.

I don't know why more women don't use this bonding hormone of Oxytocin in the bonding of their marriage , too.??
It has definitely been shown to stop infidelity, bond two adults together, and it is still so sought after by men, but women seem to with hold it from their husbands ,as though they don't care to bond with them.
Many husbands I have talked to engaging in this with their wives long after the children have grown into their twenties, tell me it is better than sex! wow.... that is sweet , loving, nurturing and tender between two people.

I think we need more couples who are willing to engage in this wonderful thing called Adult Nursing Relationships....... it is absolutely wonderful.
It has too many benefits to count!:p

Hold on............. What???

The Sweeper

Dudess wrote: »

If people are into orgies, swinging, sex shows, more power to them, but I don't think to not be into those = an uptight or repressed or prudish person.

The sexuality message you're exposed to in Ireland is completely confusing. It doesn't even have to involve such 'liberated' activities as partner swapping or voyeurism.

Let's take head - oral sex, fellatio, blowjobs.

I met someone recently who doesn't give blowjobs. Finds them disgusting, degrading. I was surprised to be honest - not surprised that she felt so vehemently anti-blowjob, but more surprised that she hasn't simply capitulated and gives head routinely because society thinks she's supposed to as a routine part of foreplay or a standard activity in a relationship.

If you watch porn, you're shown images that suggest you should be a cock-gobbling demon who just loves to get a cumshot in the face. Choking and gagging on a penis? GREAT GUNS NORA!! SOUNDS LIKE A HOOT! Often the first sexual encounter for teenaged girls now is to give oral sex to the bloke they're with - and not necessarily a bloke they're in a relationship with either.

Because 'sure, it's just a blowjob'.

But what if you don't like giving head? What if you really detest it - perhaps you have no expectations of receiving head either, preferring to keep every sexual encounter you have as genitals only or hands to genitals? Many of the messages you hear will tell you you're sexually repressed if you don't want to give head. You're prudish. You're frigid. It's the 'norm' to give head. If you don't like giving head, you've got a problem. So what does that mean? Does that mean you should do it anyway, even though you don't want to do it?

Does it mean you should have a sexual encounter that you really don't want to have, so people don't think you're frigid or up tight or repressed?

What's another word for having a sexual encounter you don't really want to have?

Most people you speak to will probably tell you they think orgies are a little OTT and not a routinely expected part of a normal relationship. But blowjobs? They're like holding hands.

Cunnilingus, of course, isn't like holding hands, unless you've waxed every hair off your genitals so you're a bald as a baby and you've scrubbed yourself pinkly raw and clean before a guy can be expected to spearhead the hunt for the clitoris.

Yes, of course these messages don't apply to everyone - but that's the point, messages don't apply to everyone.

MrStuffins

The Sweeper wrote: »

Does it mean you should have a sexual encounter that you really don't want to have, so people don't think you're frigid or up tight or repressed?

What's another word for having a sexual encounter you don't really want to have?

I'm sorry, but you are equating "going with the crowd" to rape here.

Joe Duffy will be on in a while, maybe you can tell him oral sex should be banned!

Wibbs

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you are equating "going with the crowd" to rape here.

I can see TS's point but yea a bit of a stretch alright.

This stuff should be about choice. If you want to swing from chandeliers with a french tickler up your bum, then coolaboola and if you want a 7 second fumble through a hole in the sheet with the lights off then coolaboola too. Actually that would be what I've noticed changing more in Irish society in the last 20 odd years. Its gotten more extreme and the middle ground has shrunk somewhat.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Interesting topic!

It is my belief that we are not really oppressed as a society but MAYBE we have become more conservative in recent years.

One of my close friends M. (27) asked me one night about how to improve his sex life with his girlfriend N. (23) whom I also know well. Apparently she saw a lot of things as being "dirty" (her word) and my friend was finding it tough as his ex was a lot more adventurous.

This girl and her group of friends were horrified when M. told them of some of my antics after I broke up with my ex (casual sex). N. wanted M. to have an intervention of sorts in order to calm me down and get me to cop on. M. flat out refused saying that as far as he was concerned it wasn't a big deal, I was re-adjusting to the break-up and that things will work themselves out.

My current girlfriend that is a little younger than me (she's 23, I'm 27) and took a little bit of time to openly discuss sex. Even though we would have sex she wouldn't feel comfortable discussing the topic. I just wanted to know what she liked, didn't like etc. Thankfully though she has really opened up in that regard.

That reminds me that before I met my current girlfriend I was meeting a girl (22) on/off. Once she mentioned she was having her period or whatnot. The only thing she didn't refer to her period as her "period" but her "thingies"! It seemed so childish and made me feel like some sort of pervert preying on a child! :eek:

But in conclusion it's probably impossible to state how liberated we are as we could all offer hundreds of contrasting examples.

The Sweeper

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you are equating "going with the crowd" to rape here.

Joe Duffy will be on in a while, maybe you can tell him oral sex should be banned!

"Going with the crowd"?? So you're basically saying that yeah, if you don't like giving head, you're prudish and frigid because everybody's doing it?

Just to stir this up a bit more, I'm going to throw 'enthusiastic consent' into the mix here and see what bobs up... (oh the entendre)

metrovelvet

i dunno. As long you need six pints inside you to loosen up, whatever you are doing, is not liberated. I would still view it as an inhibited society, not just sexually, but across a range of things.

krudler

Louisayankee2 wrote: »

I don't know why people are so ignorant about how the family began and continued functioning before refrigeration, and birth control......
Stay with me here a second..
The human female is the only one that can produce milk until the day of her death. Many a husband attests to the pleasure of joining his newest offspring in the delight of the drinking of the breast milk from his wife.

I don't know why more women don't use this bonding hormone of Oxytocin in the bonding of their marriage , too.??
It has definitely been shown to stop infidelity, bond two adults together, and it is still so sought after by men, but women seem to with hold it from their husbands ,as though they don't care to bond with them.
Many husbands I have talked to engaging in this with their wives long after the children have grown into their twenties, tell me it is better than sex! wow.... that is sweet , loving, nurturing and tender between two people.

I think we need more couples who are willing to engage in this wonderful thing called Adult Nursing Relationships....... it is absolutely wonderful.
It has too many benefits to count!:p

They did a special documentary on this on Little Britain, you should check it out, very informative.

who the fug

Dudess wrote: »

An edition of The Late Late Show in the 60s where a woman said in response to some query re her nightie on her wedding night that she may not have worn one... which caused much outrage from the pulpit the following Sunday... :pac::eek:

.

Worse by all accounts John Charles rang up and admonished Gaybo the same night

MrStuffins

The Sweeper wrote: »

"Going with the crowd"?? So you're basically saying that yeah, if you don't like giving head, you're prudish and frigid because everybody's doing it?

Just to stir this up a bit more, I'm going to throw 'enthusiastic consent' into the mix here and see what bobs up... (oh the entendre)

What? Where the hell did I say any of that? Are you ok? Do you need to lie down?

Smyth

The Sweeper wrote: »

"Going with the crowd"?? So you're basically saying that yeah, if you don't like giving head, you're prudish and frigid because everybody's doing it?

Just to stir this up a bit more, I'm going to throw 'enthusiastic consent' into the mix here and see what bobs up... (oh the entendre)

Wat.

Ralph pls go

Truley

Personally I think our supposedly confident and liberal attitude to sexuality is all show no substance. Irish women (and men) are still incredibly prudish and insecure with regards to nudity. Sure, we're good at public displays of drunken fumbling and showing off (loudly) in clubs and pubs. The vast majority of people I know will pay lip service to the culture, and act promisciously, but shy away from any serious discussion about sex or relationships. It's like our clothes and public behaviour says 'yes,' conduct in private says 'no.'

Most European women I have met would have a far more 'liberal' attitude towards sex and sexuality than we have, yet are shocked by the way we do dating and hooking up.

Personally I blame the gender segregated education system, the only country in Europe that still has it this way I understand. Our social and alchohol culture doesn't help either.

Floppybits

Dimitri wrote: »

I think its more cut and dry there seems to be no middle ground they are either ridiculously conservative or else completely liberated (as I would see it). The completely liberated are judged harshly as being pervs/sluts/easy/not girlfriend material, the last one incidentally makes my blood boil, how on earth can someone be good enough to sleep with but not good enough for a relationship, I'm not implying that every sexual encounter should lead to a relationship but the attitude sickens me.

It is also an attitude an awful lot of my younger friends would share (early twenties) but is refreshingly absent in older friends (late 20's early thirties) what precipitated that change I wonder?

I kinda agree but I dont think it is conservatism but actually young people being a bit more sexually educated especially about STD's other such diseases and that has made them think twice about one night stands and also the new media such as text messaging and facebook where someone's sexual behaviour can be broadcast with in minutes around not just Ireland but the world.

When I was growing up in the 90's, I think Ireland was just coming out of its conservative ways and people where enjoying the new freedom but as with everything things settle down and we become more aware I think this is what has happened here. On the new media in the 90's we didn't have email, facebook and text messages so you wouldn't get a reputation as quickly as what you would nowadays. I think for young people that is a minefield nowadays and this has kinda made them step back and evaluate their thinking.

metrovelvet

Truley wrote: »

Personally I think our supposedly confident and liberal attitude to sexuality is all show no substance. Irish women (and men) are still incredibly prudish and insecure with regards to nudity. Sure, we're good at public displays of drunken fumbling and showing off (loudly) in clubs and pubs. The vast majority of people I know will pay lip service to the culture, and act promisciously, but shy away from any serious discussion about sex or relationships. It's like our clothes and public behaviour says 'yes,' conduct in private says 'no.'

Most European women I have met would have a far more 'liberal' attitude towards sex and sexuality than we have, yet are shocked by the way we do dating and hooking up.

Personally I blame the gender segregated education system, the only country in Europe that still has it this way I understand. Our social and alchohol culture doesn't help either.

Yes, there is no depth to it. Its like some kind of performativity of being loose and liberal but nothing behind it.

Never hear much talk about sensuality. Gets totally left out of the discussion. Irish women in general not in touch with their inner sirens, probably because it would scare the men!

mariebeth

Truley wrote: »

Personally I blame the gender segregated education system, the only country in Europe that still has it this way I understand. Our social and alchohol culture doesn't help either.

I personally blame our parents...or was I the only one here who got handed a book on sex education & that was it? My parents are quite traditional with a strong emphasis on religion, so sex is just a topic that is not discussed really in the house at all. But even without the whole religious aspect of it, I don't think that there are many Irish parents who are good at talking about sex with their kids. And for sex education and discussion, it should really start at home, instead they expect the schools to pass on information and values, and sher who listens to their teachers?

Unfortunately most of our generations parents were repressed by their parents and the church and all that, so maybe it's up to us to acknowledge this and hopefully not pass on that repression to our own kids?

Dudess

Truley wrote: »

Irish women (and men) are still incredibly prudish and insecure with regards to nudity.

Again, why are you associating nudity with sexuality? As was being said on the other thread, many people just feel self conscious about the physical condition of their bodies, it's not that they have a problem with the naked body.

The Sweeper

MrStuffins wrote: »

What? Where the hell did I say any of that? Are you ok? Do you need to lie down?

Smyth wrote:

Wat.

Ralph pls go

Guys, seriously, this is a debate. If you can't find a way to address the actual point, then don't bother trying to play the smartarsed rhetoric game with me, because while I'm currently extremely lazy, that's one I will win.

My point is this:

Lots of women don't like giving blowjobs.
Society currently considers the blowjob a happy part of a normal relationship.
If you declare that you don't like giving blowjobs, lots of people will tell you you're prudish, up tight, frigid, need to relax, aren't doing it properly, need to get out more, etc. etc.
More disturbingly, if you declare that you don't like giving blowjobs a whole pile of women may tell you to get over yourself, that it's great fun, and that you're frigid - even though they may not actually like giving blowjobs themselves.

It's a desire to fit in. In a loving relationship, lots of people who aren't crazy about giving head give head because they know their partner likes it and they get some enjoyment out of pleasing their partner. Where does that leave young women who aren't in a relationship who are giving casual fellatio to blokes in their class / in their workplace / in their college course / in their general circle of friends, purely out of a desire to fit in, even though they dislike the sexual act they are performing?

This is where the concept of enthusiastic consent comes in. Enthusiastic consent isn't just saying yes to a sexual act - it's actively participating in and enjoying a sexual act that you're getting something out of and where you're willingly and wholeheartedly enjoying yourself partaking in that sexual act.

But this is where we come back to Dudess' original post and the point of this thread. Why do a lot of women dislike giving blowjobs? Is it because we're a nation of repressed prudes? What's so bad about them, as opposed to some minor jawache which should really be offset by the entertainment you get from the pleasure the receiving gentleman is getting out of your ministrations?

If you dislike giving blowjobs because for you, they're an unpleasant and uncomfortable experience involving putting a bad-smelling, poor-tasting member in your mouth and experiencing gagging and choking, then who the fuck are you dating and why the fuck does HE think that's an okay way to engage in a sexual act with someone? Which one of the two of you is more repressed, the fellator performing a sex act that they're not enjoying and which, as they slurp, they wish was over? Or the fellatee who appears to believe they are somehow entitled to this particular kind of stimulation and don't have to make any effort to facilitate it?

Even if he's not pushing your head down like he's trying to encourage you to win an apple bobbing concept, why won't he wash? Why are you expected to have a bijou landing-strip bushette and a set of hooker heels, while he presents a set of hairy caveman genitalia that look like he's tucked an ounce of Dumas in his jocks, and smells like roadkill in the summer heat?

And if he isn't behaving badly - if he's clean and gentle and keeps his hands firmly interlaced behind his head while you work your magic, why do some women still hate the process? Is this where repression comes in, that you're performing an act which isn't actually physically unpleasant, but still makes you feel 'dirty'? Who says it's degrading? Who's telling us that we're somehow debasing ourselves by partaking in the mouth-hugs?

In Ireland, we look around the tell ourselves it's the church or our parents or our education.

But it's not just the church, or our parents, or our schools, and it's not just Ireland. The hyper-sexualisation of women is a first world phenomenon. Pole dancing is now touted as an empowering workout choice. You can't buy a pair of high heels that don't have a five inch stiletto and a one inch platform sole. They used to be hooker heels - now they're only hooker heels if the sole and the heel are transparent.

Against the hyper-sexualisation campaign, if you're NOT a skinny, pneumatic-boobed hooker-heel-wearing sex kitten who's claiming your scantily clad state is just for you and it's empowering and by the way you can suck a golfball through a four metre hosepipe, then you're a repressed frigid prude. And age doesn't get you out of these expectations any more - thank you, cougars of the world.

Against all that expectation, how the hell is any woman supposed to feel liberated?

28064212

The Sweeper wrote: »

Lots of women don't like giving blowjobs.
Society currently considers the blowjob a happy part of a normal relationship.
If you declare that you don't like giving blowjobs, lots of people will tell you you're prudish, up tight, frigid, need to relax, aren't doing it properly, need to get out more, etc. etc.

And if you don't drink alcohol, lots of people will tell you... well, that you're prudish, up tight, frigid, need to relax, aren't doing it properly, need to get out more, etc. etc. So? There are (normally :pac:) two people in the bedroom. Anyone else's opinion doesn't count.

And IMO, society sees cunninglingus as just an important a part of a "normal relationship" (whatever that is) as fellatio.

The Sweeper wrote: »

It's a desire to fit in. In a loving relationship, lots of people who aren't crazy about giving head give head because they know their partner likes it and they get some enjoyment out of pleasing their partner. Where does that leave young women who aren't in a relationship who are giving casual fellatio to blokes in their class / in their workplace / in their college course / in their general circle of friends, purely out of a desire to fit in, even though they dislike the sexual act they are performing?

But they've made a conscious choice to do it, for whatever reason.

The Sweeper wrote: »

This is where the concept of enthusiastic consent comes in. Enthusiastic consent isn't just saying yes to a sexual act - it's actively participating in and enjoying a sexual act that you're getting something out of and where you're willingly and wholeheartedly enjoying yourself partaking in that sexual act.

If I didn't like performing cunninglingus (I do), I would still do it to provide pleasure to my partner. Even if it did nothing for me. I would also (to list some stereotypes) go on shopping trips, go to stranger's weddings, listen to boring conversations and clean up around the house (but not watch the X-factor, that's one step too far )

The Sweeper wrote: »

If you dislike giving blowjobs because for you, they're an unpleasant and uncomfortable experience involving putting a bad-smelling, poor-tasting member in your mouth and experiencing gagging and choking, then who the fuck are you dating and why the fuck does HE think that's an okay way to engage in a sexual act with someone? Which one of the two of you is more repressed, the fellator performing a sex act that they're not enjoying and which, as they slurp, they wish was over? Or the fellatee who appears to believe they are somehow entitled to this particular kind of stimulation and don't have to make any effort to facilitate it?

Out of curiosity, if a woman consents to fellatio, are men supposed to be mind-readers to decide she actually doesn't want to do it? That she doesn't want to provide pleasure to her partner? There is one person responsible for whether someone performs fellatio, and that's the person themselves (rape cases excluded of course)

The Sweeper wrote: »

But it's not just the church, or our parents, or our schools, and it's not just Ireland. The hyper-sexualisation of women is a first world phenomenon. Pole dancing is now touted as an empowering workout choice. You can't buy a pair of high heels that don't have a five inch stiletto and a one inch platform sole. They used to be hooker heels - now they're only hooker heels if the sole and the heel are transparent.

Against the hyper-sexualisation campaign, if you're NOT a skinny, pneumatic-boobed hooker-heel-wearing sex kitten who's claiming your scantily clad state is just for you and it's empowering and by the way you can suck a golfball through a four metre hosepipe, then you're a repressed frigid prude. And age doesn't get you out of these expectations any more - thank you, cougars of the world.

And men are expected to be all things to all women: macho-posturing but emotionally-sensitive, bad-boys and nerds, chivalrous but pro-equal-rights, movie-star good-looking but without attracting any other women, and, above all, instinctively amazing in bed. Expectations work both ways

parker kent

I think we are a country of contradictions that is still finding its way towards a more mature attitude towards sexuality. The contradictions come from people with wildly different views (not just an Irish issue, but still one we have), contradictions within people themselves and conflicted messages received when kids are growing up.

From my own experience, I have friends that cover all possible thoughts and opinions on sexuality. I have friends that are virgins at 25 who won't speak about sex at all (and I mean at all, I once mistakenly said handjob and caused World War Three), I have friends who have sex with anybody they can whenever they can, I have friends who got married at 21 and so forth. Then add in that we have the full spectrum of opinions on sexuality outside my age range. Just looking at threads on Boards shows how different some people are. Take the nudity threads, any about Claire Tully, Georgia Salpa etc or the thread about the student teachers. I know that threads like that are not specifically about sexuality (and lots of other perfectly valid opinions about side topics), but it gives an indication of the different types of opinions held by people. Some are very open and others are hostile towards anything that is any way sexual.

I agree with people who bring up the idea that a lot of Irish people need to be sloshed at the weekend before they try and chat up the opposite sex. It may not be everybody, but the Irish pub/club culture is "interesting" to say the least.

Basically we have all manner of opinions on sexuality. Like I said in the prude thread, I think Ireland is in a period where opinions on sexuality are changing and there is a clash between the various opinions. We still live in a country where the Liveline brigade hold power, yet any night out will show you people who are definitely not afraid of their sexuality. Yet those people often need alcohol to bring that out.

So we are basically a mixed bag!

Edit: Just to add I read a good book about this area in college called Gender and Sexuality in Modern Ireland by Anthony Bradley and Maryann Gialanella Valiulis. It is on Google Books if anybody wants a gander. It delves into various aspects from homosexuality to gender issues and everything else in between.

Louisayankee2

The Sweeper-
I have to admit you're a global thinker.
I am new to this site, so please forgive me if I don't send a personal reply to you. Not everyone who lives in another country hates or dislikes you or anyone .... for that matter. It is that you must remember, as a newbie, a person is limited, until they get to know you

I have to agree with your imposing knowledge of the fact women have been terribly sexualized, and mostly America, ....... it's a shame.
One college professor put it this way......" We , in America, made huge strides to female liberation, equality........ until Madonna. She did more to undermine those advances that any one single thing in the U.S."
We all know the differences in the sexes, but she went way beyond what most women want to be used for. Her own insecurities ( see her before she was anybody) as a young girl, made her the blatantly gross female that she tries to sell the world.
Any respectable woman, knows that a man enjoys him woman to be his own, not displaying her physique to the world at large!( notice I say MOST men , here....)
But, thank you for your support in thanking Bryn on MrStuffins comment on my post.
I am trying to find ways for couples to bond , not become more distant. It is a fact that men need tactile stimulation to bond.
I am studying this phenomenon, not for making more of a loose society, but trying to enhance relationships.
There seems to be the association between sexuality and the ANR experience, that doesn't quite belong front and center... excuse the pun!

Women take about 11 min. longer to rev up their engines , so to speak, than men do, so adult nursing is both erotic for the couple and brings a female to the intended place she needs to be for her mate. Each one enjoys the experience, and it is tantric , for sure. It takes time, and lengthens out the time two can be into one another without having to jump right into a sexual encounter.
No wonder men don't understand women, they haven't been reading about this very functioning relationship. If it works (breastfeeding for 2+ yrs.) with babies, all the more with men.
The wonderful part is, the husband/boyfriend gets more milk the longer he spends at the breast. The Oxytocin is a relaxant, and a bonding hormone.

The old addage......"The more you give, the more you get.", works on both male and female. It is a co-dependent , and symbiotic relationship, that only the two can share in, unless there would be others involved, which is what some countries do with other people's infants whose Mother dies.
That is called a wet-nurse.
I am learning about this for the first time, so don't even think I am an expert on the subject.
John Bowlby's model for long term orphanages is based on this "secure bonding" relationship now. New orphanages are using his model to recreate the family atmosphere instead of huge, institutionalized orphanages.
What a wonderful man!
Thank you for reading my post, hope I don't offend anyone ! (smiling)

AntiMatter

The Sweeper wrote: »

In Ireland, we look around the tell ourselves it's the church or our parents or our education.

But it's not just the church, or our parents, or our schools, and it's not just Ireland. The hyper-sexualisation of women is a first world phenomenon. Pole dancing is now touted as an empowering workout choice. You can't buy a pair of high heels that don't have a five inch stiletto and a one inch platform sole. They used to be hooker heels - now they're only hooker heels if the sole and the heel are transparent.

Against the hyper-sexualisation campaign, if you're NOT a skinny, pneumatic-boobed hooker-heel-wearing sex kitten who's claiming your scantily clad state is just for you and it's empowering and by the way you can suck a golfball through a four metre hosepipe, then you're a repressed frigid prude. And age doesn't get you out of these expectations any more - thank you, cougars of the world.

Against all that expectation, how the hell is any woman supposed to feel liberated?

Are you saying that conformity to Church morality is as repressing as conformity to the morals and expectations of that part of the media that has engaged in the hyper-sexualisation campaign?

28064212

Louisayankee2 wrote: »

It has definitely been shown to stop infidelity, bond two adults together

Any chance of showing that it "definitely" does either of those?

Louisayankee2 wrote: »

Many husbands I have talked to engaging in this with their wives long after the children have grown into their twenties, tell me it is better than sex! wow.... that is sweet , loving, nurturing and tender between two people.

Many people will tell you chocolate is better than sex

Louisayankee2 wrote: »

I think we need more couples who are willing to engage in this wonderful thing called Adult Nursing Relationships....... it is absolutely wonderful.
It has too many benefits to count!:p

It might work for some people, it might not. It is entirely dependent on the individuals. Successful BDSM relationships are wonderful, "better than sex",have "too many benefits to count", "bond two adults together" and can "stop infidelity". Don't tout "Adult Nursing Relationships" as some sort of magic bullet for all ails

parker kent

The Sweeper wrote: »

If you dislike giving blowjobs because for you, they're an unpleasant and uncomfortable experience involving putting a bad-smelling, poor-tasting member in your mouth and experiencing gagging and choking, then who the fuck are you dating and why the fuck does HE think that's an okay way to engage in a sexual act with someone? Which one of the two of you is more repressed, the fellator performing a sex act that they're not enjoying and which, as they slurp, they wish was over? Or the fellatee who appears to believe they are somehow entitled to this particular kind of stimulation and don't have to make any effort to facilitate it?

I think anybody in a sexual relationship should be able to say "I don't like X, so can we do something else instead?" No doubt there are girls who feel they cannot say that. Also there will undoubtedly be men who think that they should always get a blowjob. But in reality, people should only do what they are comfortable doing. And anybody who cared for the person they were with would understand and would do any one of the million other things that people having sex can do with each other instead.

Dimitri

Floppybits wrote: »

I kinda agree but I dont think it is conservatism but actually young people being a bit more sexually educated especially about STD's other such diseases and that has made them think twice about one night stands and also the new media such as text messaging and facebook where someone's sexual behaviour can be broadcast with in minutes around not just Ireland but the world.

When I was growing up in the 90's, I think Ireland was just coming out of its conservative ways and people where enjoying the new freedom but as with everything things settle down and we become more aware I think this is what has happened here. On the new media in the 90's we didn't have email, facebook and text messages so you wouldn't get a reputation as quickly as what you would nowadays. I think for young people that is a minefield nowadays and this has kinda made them step back and evaluate their thinking.

That's a valid point and not I'd previously considered. However what really troubles me is the judgemental nature of the attitude. I agree and Facebook is an absolute minefield for all ages but its the fact that living, what I'd consider to be, an educated but liberated lifestyle is open to such harsh ridicule when it becomes known, which with the advent of FB etc is pretty much instant. I fully understand that some sections of society will always look at overt sexuality, or indeed female sexuality as being wrong but it worries me when that portion of society has such a large youth/young adult population. When I look at Irelands history the 90's for me represented Ireland as a nation finally moving in the right direction (as I see it) in terms of social policy. The Celtic Tiger years saw this stall where in effect it seemed to me that no one cared about the social fabric of the nation. With this at an end it feels as if we are in free fall and I fear that an awful lot of progress will be lost especially if supported by my peers and younger.

The Sweeper

AntiMatter wrote: »

Are you saying that conformity to Church morality is as repressing as conformity to the morals and expectations of that part of the media that has engaged in the hyper-sexualisation campaign?

No - I'm really saying the perception of repression is relative, and the bar's getting higher.

Virgins are repressed compared to folk in the missionary position.
Folk in the missionary position are repressed compared to folk doin it doggy style.
Folk who do it doggy style are repressed compared to folk who engage in anal sex.
Folk who engage in anal sex are repressed compared to folk who engage in S&M, bondage, watersports, various other play.

And at the top of the heap will be some goat-legged deviant who attaches a strap-on to his forehead so he can penetrate a female partner while rimming a male partner while various other partners pour melted wax on his balls at the same time as masturbating him with a frozen chicken carcass while yet another person passes an electrical current through his body via crocodile clips on his nipples, and compared to HIM, you're ALL repressed if you're not willing to do the same thing.

But best of all, I should haven't called him a deviant, because that makes me most repressed of all.

parker kent wrote: »

I think anybody in a sexual relationship should be able to say "I don't like X, so can we do something else instead?" No doubt there are girls who feel they cannot say that. Also there will undoubtedly be men who think that they should always get a blowjob. But in reality, people should only do what they are comfortable doing. And anybody who cared for the person they were with would understand and would do any one of the million other things that people having sex can do with each other instead.

The biggest danger about repression and prudishness, to me, is that they're labels, and fear of being labelled may cause people to engage in sexual acts that they are not really ready, willing or able to engage in. Again back to enthusiastic consent - who defines what's prudish? Who defines what's repressed? Who defines what's frigid?

People get their sexual expectations from many places - church, family, culture, education, media including porn, friends, personal experience. But currently, for sexually active twentysomethings, to take an age bracket, are the sexual expectations placed on both men and women fair? And is it fair that if people won't do something - anything - that they find unpleasant but the 'sexual expectations' set deems commonplace - is it fair that those people are then labelled as repressed?

metrovelvet

The Sweeper wrote: »

No - I'm really saying the perception of repression is relative, and the bar's getting higher.

Virgins are repressed compared to folk in the missionary position.
Folk in the missionary position are repressed compared to folk doin it doggy style.
Folk who do it doggy style are repressed compared to folk who engage in anal sex.
Folk who engage in anal sex are repressed compared to folk who engage in S&M, bondage, watersports, various other play.

And at the top of the heap will be some goat-legged deviant who attaches a strap-on to his forehead so he can penetrate a female partner while rimming a male partner while various other partners pour melted wax on his balls at the same time as masturbating him with a frozen chicken carcass while yet another person passes an electrical current through his body via crocodile clips on his nipples, and compared to HIM, you're ALL repressed if you're not willing to do the same thing.

But best of all, I should haven't called him a deviant, because that makes me most repressed of all.

The biggest danger about repression and prudishness, to me, is that they're labels, and fear of being labelled may cause people to engage in sexual acts that they are not really ready, willing or able to engage in.

Good point sweeper.

Am I prude because I think pedophiles should get the death penality?

Or because I was both dismayed and disgusted by that Channel 4 special on people who fall in love with their pets and do stuff with them?

There is so much focus on the mechanics of sex that people have forgotten about timing, resistence, response, the drama, the deepness and darkness of it. It has sort of a functional, sterile tone now when people talk about it [see the prostitute thread on tGL.]

The Sweeper

28064212 wrote: »

But they've made a conscious choice to do it, for whatever reason.

A conscious choice is not enthusiastic consent. Rape victims can make a conscious choice not to fight back, it is not enthusiastic consent. A child sex abuse victim can make a conscious choice to never tell anyone, and THAT is not enthusiastic consent. And a girl can make a conscious choice to give a blowjob that she doesn't want to give to a bloke that she doesn't particularly care about, possibly for some misguided reason, and that is not enthusiastic consent.

Simply agreeing to go along with something - some act, some suggestion, some roleplay, some position, some pairing - may prevent you from being called frigid or prudish or repressed, but it does not necessarily mean you will enjoy yourself, respect yourself or feel good about yourself afterwards.

28064212 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, if a woman consents to fellatio, are men supposed to be mind-readers to decide she actually doesn't want to do it?

Blowjobs are like complements. If you had to ask for one...

AntiMatter

The Sweeper wrote: »

No - I'm really saying the perception of repression is relative, and the bar's getting higher.

Virgins are repressed compared to folk in the missionary position.
Folk in the missionary position are repressed compared to folk doin it doggy style.
Folk who do it doggy style are repressed compared to folk who engage in anal sex.
Folk who engage in anal sex are repressed compared to folk who engage in S&M, bondage, watersports, various other play.

And at the top of the heap will be some goat-legged deviant who attaches a strap-on to his forehead so he can penetrate a female partner while rimming a male partner while various other partners pour melted wax on his balls at the same time as masturbating him with a frozen chicken carcass while yet another person passes an electrical current through his body via crocodile clips on his nipples, and compared to HIM, you're ALL repressed if you're not willing to do the same thing.

But best of all, I should haven't called him a deviant, because that makes me most repressed of all.

That all depends on your definition of sexual liberation.

Personally, I wouldn't consider anyone who is confined, sexually, by the conditioning with which they've been inputted, be that an abhorrence for performing fellatio, or somebody who can only get off in a BDSM scenario, to be liberated.

28064212

The Sweeper wrote: »

A conscious choice is not enthusiastic consent. Rape victims can make a conscious choice not to fight back, it is not enthusiastic consent. A child sex abuse victim can make a conscious choice to never tell anyone, and THAT is not enthusiastic consent.

I honestly can't believe you're comparing rape and child abuse to a blowjob someone has freely given. Quite frankly, it's one of the most insulting things I've ever read, and you should be ashamed to have even considered it. And it's still a completely invalid comparison. Making a conscious choice to not fight back, to not tell anyone is not giving any kind of consent, enthusiastic or otherwise, to the original criminal.

Everywhere around the world, every second of the day, people do things that don't give "enthusiastic" consent to. But they do consent. They do it for love, they do it for money, they do it for an easier life, they do it to make other people happy

The Sweeper wrote: »

And a girl can make a conscious choice to give a blowjob that she doesn't want to give to a bloke that she doesn't particularly care about, possibly for some misguided reason, and that is not enthusiastic consent.

So don't do it. There's only consent and refusal. There's no middle ground (coercion/blackmail/mind-altering drugs aside). You didn't address my point. How is it any different to going on a shopping trip you don't really want to go, just to please your partner?

The Sweeper wrote: »

Simply agreeing to go along with something - some act, some suggestion, some roleplay, some position, some pairing - may prevent you from being called frigid or prudish or repressed, but it does not necessarily mean you will enjoy yourself, respect yourself or feel good about yourself afterwards.

If you won't respect yourself or feel good about yourself, why are you doing it? That's not the same as not enjoying yourself. Again, back to the shopping trip. I won't enjoy it, but I certainly won't lose any self-respect.

The Sweeper wrote: »

Blowjobs are like complements. If you had to ask for one...

Another bizarre statement. So people are just supposed to guess at what other people like in the bedroom?

Louisayankee2

I have to see a pattern in society at large.
What I have observed, is only in my own world of being a single person, talking to many in the varied worlds of sexuality and relationships....

The reason , anatomically, men receive any kind of 'feeling good' from anal sex or a female doing " whatever" to penetrate, is simply a stimulation of the prostate gland. That part feels good.
There is pain also, associated , as most men have told me, but what they are trying to achieve, has a goal. I do not think most people are into pain, but some ARE, you have to understand that comes from a deep place in the mind.........

What the ANR is...... what it is NOT. It is NOT gymnastics, NOT goal oriented, NOT tension filled, NOT anti-God, NOT unnatural....
As a female, I do not enjoy switching roles with a strap on .... it's just simply not MY style. It might be yours, though!
See, we live in a free world.
My question is "What is your focus?"


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what is relaxing after a pressure filled day, what does not take alcohol to work up to, what is not "timed just right" , etc. ....

That is NOT freedom to me. God doesn't dwell in the priest, the building made of stones and mortar,.............. it's a relationship. A relationship. Some of you have mentioned that sex in general is repressed. Yes, you all have something valid and a good answer to you, is what we want to hear. Isn't that what this site is all about.
But, look at the divorce rate, fears of commitment.... This is truly a committed relationship , one built on trust. One cannot do without the other person.

Baby and Mother, Father,..... Husband, wife, the two that are tenderly loving, not arguing brawling, no drugs or alcohol is involved.

Just don't knock it 28064212, until you have TRIED it , first. You can read up on "Re-Lactation" on AskLenor.com

She wrote a book on re-lactation with a Dr. who is an expert in this field.

Intended as a handbook for females wanting to nurse their infants they wanted to adopt, it is also a great resource to find out how to relactate to give your milk to your man. Breasts are wonderfully made.
Men find it soothing, comforting, and both find it tactile stimulation which has tantric effects and coitus is the result, timed perfectly. It is erotic.

Women, we must understand our bodies, and give them to our husbands, because they love breasts, and they are not sure how a female is stimulated.
This is an erotic adventure for two, not to be intertwined with prostitution. It is a beautiful thing. Just read, and be enlightened!

The Sweeper

28064212 wrote: »

So don't do it. There's only consent and refusal.

If you honest to God believe that it's this black and white, that there is no enormous grey area in sexual relationships where people do things that they don't want to do because they feel pressured, or that it's expected of them, or that they want to be accepted, or fit in, or not be labelled - if that's what you really believe, then there is absolutely no point in me addressing any of the arguments you've raised, because not only are you and I not on the same page, we're not reading the same book.

metrovelvet

Are you suggesting women breastfeed their husbands?

The Sweeper

AntiMatter wrote: »

That all depends on your definition of sexual liberation.

Personally, I wouldn't consider anyone who is confined, sexually, by the conditioning with which they've been inputted, be that an abhorrence for performing fellatio, or somebody who can only get off in a BDSM scenario, to be liberated.

Yes, but then who IS liberated?

I'd like to believe that a liberated person is someone who is sufficiently comfortable in their own skin to never do anything that they don't want to do in a sexual relationship.

However in a lot of cases that could easily make my liberated person the same as your repressed prude.

Here's a question - does your own understanding of sexual confinement or repression have a basic foundation of things that you would assume to be agreeable to all 'normal' people as part of the status quo of sexual behaviour?

For instance, if I were to present to you exhibit A, a man who will only have sex in the missionary position, four times a week, never during his partner's period, and always in sufficient light to see a bodily outline but no detail - and he sticks to his guns and never deviates from that pattern, never has oral sex, never stimulates or is stimulated using hands, but he lives his life that way because that is all he is comfortable doing - is he liberated?

The Sweeper

metrovelvet wrote: »

Are you suggesting women breastfeed their husbands?

Yep. That's what she's suggesting. I know she's in this thread, but every time I read one of those posts all I can hear is Sesame Street's 'One of these kids is doing his own thing...'

(prolly coz I'm repressed)

Ickle Magoo

The Sweeper wrote: »

For instance, if I were to present to you exhibit A, a man who will only have sex in the missionary position, four times a week, never during his partner's period, and always in sufficient light to see a bodily outline but no detail - and he sticks to his guns and never deviates from that pattern, never has oral sex, never stimulates or is stimulated using hands, but he lives his life that way because that is all he is comfortable doing - is he liberated?

Well no - namely because the reason you've given for his lack of sexual adventure is that he's not "comfortable". Surely liberation means doing that which you enjoy and only doing what you don't enjoy because you've made a rational decision to do it for other reasons such as pleasuring a partner; rather than anything to do with sexual behaviour outside of a set and limited repertoire causing discomfort...

Louisayankee2

Yes, breastfeeding your man is what Adult Nursing Relationships are...

Men love suckling, women love receiving the stimulation, it enhances their desire to engage in coitus.
It is natural, any men having done this with their wives , especially during her childbearing years , has admitted it has made him feel especially bonded to her.
She turns to her husband to relieve her engorged breasts, and it is a trust filled adventure. The more he nurses, the more milk the mammary gland produces. People don't know the human female is the only one on earth who can 'non-stop' lactate until the day she dies, even if 100 years old.

When a woman nurses a baby, her quantity of milk is small. When a woman nurses a large male, his frequent nursings make her produce larger quantities the more time he spends at her breast.
A breast pump does not stimulate the end of the nipple, but it will help once the let-down reflex has occurred, while he is at work.
A nursing relationship relies on trust, embracing, tenderness, and closeness. The two must be face to face , or nearly. She must relax and give into his stimulation he is giving to her. She must not resist this. It is part of the success of the relationship. She has to want it, and he has to want it too..

Females take longer to work up to an "o--_-_-_-_" than men do, that is why this is slow , super easy, and third world countries often HAVE to keep the grandmothers in 'milk' in case their daughter dies, or daughter in law dies. The two grandmothers cannot run to a refrigerator or a local store to buy milk, they have it sitting right on their chests!
So, see, God is very smart indeed. He designed us to be using what comes naturally.The benefits are lasting.
Breast milk is now being given to old people, by glass... now!
It kills cancer tumors, it relaxes, and I just found out that the human being could live on breast milk their entire life if they had to.

But, some women will get angry on here ....... I can just hear it now

28064212

Louisayankee2 wrote: »

Just don't knock it 28064212, until you have TRIED it , first. You can read up on "Re-Lactation" on AskLenor.com

A lesbian orgy in scuba gear underwater with an audience of thousands is a great way to relax after a hard days work... Oh you don't agree? Have you TRIED it?

Louisayankee2 wrote: »

Intended as a handbook for females wanting to nurse their infants they wanted to adopt, it is also a great resource to find out how to relactate to give your milk to your man. Breasts are wonderfully made.
Men find it soothing, comforting, and both find it tactile stimulation which has tantric effects and coitus is the result, timed perfectly. It is erotic.

Any statement that starts "Men find it..." is obviously inherently wrong. A statement starting "Some men may find it..." can be considered if you want to rewrite it.

Louisayankee2 wrote: »

Women, we must understand our bodies, and give them to our husbands, because they love breasts, and they are not sure how a female is stimulated.

More sweeping statements. Some men love a woman's ass, some love feet, some love hands, some love eyes. Some crazy fetishists even think the vagina is the most sexual part of a women. And plenty of men know how to stimulate a woman

The Sweeper wrote: »

If you honest to God believe that it's this black and white, that there is no enormous grey area in sexual relationships where people do things that they don't want to do because they feel pressured, or that it's expected of them, or that they want to be accepted, or fit in, or not be labelled - if that's what you really believe, then there is absolutely no point in me addressing any of the arguments you've raised, because not only are you and I not on the same page, we're not reading the same book.

There is an enormous grey area in the reasons for consenting. If a man starts going down on a woman, should she stop him because she's not sure if it's "enthusiastic" consent? And you didn't address the shopping trip analogy. Nor take back your offensive comparison of a consenting blowjob to rape/child abuse cases

Ickle Magoo

Okay Louisayankee2, stop with the continual spamming of the adult nursing stuff please.

Can I also ask if you haven't already done so to read the charter - especially the bit about lazy generalizations.

Many thanks