Homeland [Showtime - US] [** Spoilers **]

ballsymchugh

Hyzepher wrote: »

i remember it as Saul says it's the youngest son and she says the name - just before she says "how could I have missed that" in the hospital bed.

I need to go back and listen again.

the name was mentioned alright, watched this last night. was feckin screaming at her to make the connection with the nightmare scene in the cabin.

JohnK

Thats a weird thing for them to have cut from the US broadcast as that dialog is as follows:

Saul: Well, you shouldn’t feel all bad; I mean it hasn’t been an unmitigated disaster. You were wrong about Brody but you were right about Nazir
Carrie: Are you telling me that the ??? (can make out what she said there) his period of dormancy?
Saul: Yeah, he was in mourning. His son died in an air strike. Northern iraq.
Carrie: Which son?
Saul: The youngest. 10 years old. Along with 82 of his madrassa class mates. Apparently the vice president gave the order.
Carrie: How on earth did I miss that?
Saul: You didn’t. The records been wiped clean. Expunged. Like it never happened.
Carrie: Wow. Thanks for telling me.
Saul: You deserved to know.
Carrie: Saul, do you think theres any chance I could appeal my termination?
Saul: No.

-End scene, cut to Brody on the roof of his house with his daughter.

Basq

That exchange was definitely in the version I saw anyways..

kearneybobs

Basq wrote: »

That exchange was definitely in the version I saw anyways..

Yup. It was in the version I saw when it first aired in America too.

JohnK

Well, yeah the exchange would have been there alright but there was no mention of the dead sons name in that exchange; at least in the US broadcast version.

don ramo

JohnK wrote: »

Well, yeah the exchange would have been there alright but there was no mention of the dead sons name in that exchange; at least in the US broadcast version.

yeah but carrie would know nazirs whole family and probably all his extended family, saul doesnt need to tell her the name cause she already knows it,
you gotta remember that carrie has been tracking nazir for years,

MagicMarker

JohnK wrote: »

Thats a weird thing for them to have cut from the US broadcast as that dialog is as follows:

Saul: Well, you shouldn’t feel all bad; I mean it hasn’t been an unmitigated disaster. You were wrong about Brody but you were right about Nazir
Carrie: Are you telling me that the ??? (can make out what she said there) his period of dormancy?
Saul: Yeah, he was in mourning. His son died in an air strike. Northern iraq.
Carrie: Which son?
Saul: The youngest. 10 years old. Along with 82 of his madrassa class mates. Apparently the vice president gave the order.
Carrie: How on earth did I miss that?
Saul: You didn’t. The records been wiped clean. Expunged. Like it never happened.
Carrie: Wow. Thanks for telling me.
Saul: You deserved to know.
Carrie: Saul, do you think theres any chance I could appeal my termination?
Saul: No.

-End scene, cut to Brody on the roof of his house with his daughter.

That conversation happened in the hospital just before she went in for shock therapy and after she had a total breakdown, how long before that was it when Brody say it in his sleep????

I think people are being a bit too nit-picky with that tbh.

JohnK

don ramo wrote: »

yeah but carrie would know nazirs whole family and probably all his extended family, saul doesnt need to tell her the name cause she already knows it,
you gotta remember that carrie has been tracking nazir for years,

Oh I know that I'm just making the point that the boys name wasnt explicitly mentioned in that scene as some people thought it had been hence why she didnt make the connection while Saul was in the room. Maybe if Saul had said "It was Isa, the 10 year old" rather than just "The youngest. 10 years old." she might have made the connection there and then by realising she'd heard that name relativly recently.

MagicMarker wrote: »

That conversation happened in the hospital just before she went in for shock therapy and after she had a total breakdown, how long before that was it when Brody say it in his sleep????

I think people are being a bit too nit-picky with that tbh.

I agree that its a bit too nit-picky to expect her to instantly think of the name when she heard Nazir's son was killed as a name of someone’s son in and of itself is not particularly relevant to terrorist activity. Its really only on reflection that you start to piece things together so I think they way they did it was quite appropriate.

jimbling

Hold the phone. Ye think she knew the name of Nasirs son??? Can't see that. Think about the situation in the Cabin:

1) Carrie is completely obssessed with Nasir.... has been for years.
2) She believed Brody had been turned and is now working for Nasir.
3) Brody screams a name in his sleep (Remember, she is going to serious (and slutty) lengths to garner information about Nasir from Brody... sleep talk is gold)
4) She realises the name is important and questions him about it again in the morning.
5) She accuses Brody of working with Nasir.
6) Brody confesses to not only knowing Nasir, but loving him. He also confesses to converting to Muslim.

Surely in that slightly psychotic brain of hers, the name Isa would have literally SCREAMED at her. Immediate family to Nasir!!!!!

I always assumed she didnt know Nasirs sons name (for the reasons above) Presumed he managed to keep his private life private. The alternative is that she is actually stupidly bad at her job. I mean bottom of the barrel bad. Any average joe would have connected those dots.... never mind a CIA Analyst.


Anyway, enough about that. All in all, a great series, but I was pretty dissapointed by the finale. It was good TV until the end.... last minute call from the daughter... please :rolleyes:
I was hoping for an end to Brody too... one way or the other. Not overly excited about the second season. Feels like it will be more of the same.

jcsoulinger

jimbling wrote: »

Hold the phone. Ye think she knew the name of Nasirs son??? Can't see that. Think about the situation in the Cabin:

1) Carrie is completely obssessed with Nasir.... has been for years.
2) She believed Brody had been turned and is now working for Nasir.
3) Brody screams a name in his sleep (Remember, she is going to serious (and slutty) lengths to garner information about Nasir from Brody... sleep talk is gold)
4) She realises the name is important and questions him about it again in the morning.
5) She accuses Brody of working with Nasir.
6) Brody confesses to not only knowing Nasir, but loving him. He also confesses to converting to Muslim.

Surely in that slightly psychotic brain of hers, the name Isa would have literally SCREAMED at her. Immediate family to Nasir!!!!!

I always assumed she didnt know Nasirs sons name (for the reasons above) Presumed he managed to keep his private life private. The alternative is that she is actually stupidly bad at her job. I mean bottom of the barrel bad. Any average joe would have connected those dots.... never mind a CIA Analyst.


Anyway, enough about that. All in all, a great series, but I was pretty dissapointed by the finale. It was good TV until the end.... last minute call from the daughter... please :rolleyes:
I was hoping for an end to Brody too... one way or the other. Not overly excited about the second season. Feels like it will be more of the same.

Nail on Head.... It doesn't make complete sense!

Shane St.

Really good show. Watched it all in a week. Can't see where it is going to go next season.

tunguska

3 episodes in for me and Im not overly impressed so far. Its an interesting concept but it just comes across like 24 with bad language and boobs. Its too glossy, too many ridiculously good looking people to make it believable.
Claire danes for example, I just dont buy that shes a homeland security agent. She has this whiney voice and looks like shes on the verge of tears in every scene. She just doesnt look the part, she looks like an actress not a security agent, and that damages credibility. The show as a whole needs more grit and believability. On the plus side Damien Lewis does convince, its like he's acting in a better show entirely.

tvnutz

tunguska wrote: »

Its too glossy, too many ridiculously good looking people to make it believable.
.

I hate this complaint against a tv show. While you are actually right,not everyone is perfectly good looking,you should know by now that the vast majority of tv shows will have a cast that is good looking. If you were to go with this argument you would not watch 95% of tv shows or movies.

It's just a fact,they use mostly good looking people,accept it and move on.

tunguska

tvnutz wrote: »

I hate this complaint against a tv show. While you are actually right,not everyone is perfectly good looking,you should know by now that the vast majority of tv shows will have a cast that is good looking. If you were to go with this argument you would not watch 95% of tv shows or movies.

It's just a fact,they use mostly good looking people,accept it and move on.

But thats the thing, it doesnt have to be that way. Have you ever seen Maimi vice(Michael Mann's film)? I enjoyed that movie because I bought it. The female police officers looked the part, they looked the way female police officers are in reality. Ditto for the film Haywire. The film as a whole is a bit of a mess but by jaysus do I believe that girl(Gina Carano)can knock the crap outta blokes twice her size. And that gave the film credibility it wouldnt have posessed had, I dunno, Jennifer anniston or Kate beckinsale or somebody like that had been throwing digs left right and centre while wearing a flowery dress.

tvnutz

tunguska wrote: »

But thats the thing, it doesnt have to be that way. Have you ever seen Maimi vice(Michael Mann's film)? I enjoyed that movie because I bought it. The female police officers looked the part, they looked the way female police officers are in reality. Ditto for the film Haywire. The film as a whole is a bit of a mess but by jaysus do I believe that girl(Gina Carano)can knock the crap outta blokes twice her size. And that gave the film credibility it wouldnt have posessed had, I dunno, Jennifer anniston or Kate beckinsale or somebody like that had been throwing digs left right and centre while wearing a flowery dress.

I know it doesn't have to be that way,but it is and it won't change, so you can't let it be something that annoys you every single time.

The Wire,best tv show ever made IMO, has a good amount of good looking people but mixes it well enough with the average joe. So ye it can be done but bottom line is that it is not done. Just reminds me of that episode of Friends where Joey is teaching an acting class and says to the students they will have to become a lot more attractive to work on a tv show

don ramo

damn them healthy good looking people, TBF anyone walking through any city in the world would see a bunch of people just as attractive or better than claire danes or morena baccarin,

beauty isnt patented by hollywood, anyone with the right determination can look good and healthy, having good genes just helps the process,

ratedR

Spent the last few days watching the entire first series. Absolutely hooked. Definitely the best tv from the States since the first few seasons of 24. But better then 24 because it's got boobs and swearing

A little bit dissapointed with the season finale, the broken wire and then the phone call.. And is the daughter wise to him then or what ?

At the Golden Globes the producers said that season 2 will concentrate on Brody and Carries relationship - however that's going to pan out ?

I suppose the mystery of it is gone now, we know what happened to Brody and what he's doing, and why. Will next season be Carrie out on her own trying to prove he's Al-Qaeda while he gets into office, while everyone else still just thinks she's crazy?

thegreengoblin

Watched the series over a couple of weeks and I really enjoyed it. But as the bipolar thing with Carrie doesn't really work for me. A CIA agent who is bi-polar?? Is it really possible for someone in a job like that to have kept her condition from her superiors for however long she has been in the job? And as someone pointed out, every time she opens her mouth she sounds like she's about to start crying or flip out....I like my leading ladies to have a cool head about them

Carrie aside, I thought everything else was great. Brody and Saul are the standout characters for me. I thought the way the final episode opened with Brody delivering his post-death speech was really good.

As for next season, I hope the producers don't put Brody back in the sack with Carrie. I can see why it had to happen for this season but it just didn't feel right. And how much of The Manchurian Candidate will the next season be influenced by? Either way, if it's as good as the first season we're in for a treat. Roll on next autumn.

555guy

ratedR wrote: »

Spent the last few days watching the entire first series. Absolutely hooked. Definitely the best tv from the States since the first few seasons of 24. But better then 24 because it's got boobs and swearing

A little bit dissapointed with the season finale, the broken wire and then the phone call.. And is the daughter wise to him then or what ?

At the Golden Globes the producers said that season 2 will concentrate on Brody and Carries relationship - however that's going to pan out ?

I suppose the mystery of it is gone now, we know what happened to Brody and what he's doing, and why. Will next season be Carrie out on her own trying to prove he's Al-Qaeda while he gets into office, while everyone else still just thinks she's crazy?

I just finished watching S1 as well and really enjoyed it except the finale might mean that the story has now been explained and the next series could be rubbish.

Also , it never explained what happened with the bomb vest though ... how did he get back out with it and if it was left in the building why wasn;t it found ???

don ramo

555guy wrote: »

I just finished watching S1 as well and really enjoyed it except the finale might mean that the story has now been explained and the next series could be rubbish.

Also , it never explained what happened with the bomb vest though ... how did he get back out with it and if it was left in the building why wasn;t it found ???

they wouldnt need to be searched on the way out, and cause they were rushed in everyone had something on them that would set off the alarms, and seeing as noting happened while they were in there there was no reason to search anyone,

im sure theyll be able to muster up some decent storyline for the second season,

expectationlost

thegreengoblin wrote: »

Watched the series over a couple of weeks and I really enjoyed it. But as the bipolar thing with Carrie doesn't really work for me. A CIA agent who is bi-polar?? Is it really possible for someone in a job like that to have kept her condition from her superiors for however long she has been in the job? And as someone pointed out, every time she opens her mouth she sounds like she's about to start crying or flip out....I like my leading ladies to have a cool head about them

a cia agent goes to work does her job well..... the end

brimal

I have just finished watching this series, it's very good. I wish it lasted longer than 12 episodes though. Hopefully series 2 will be longer.

I think Claire Danes is the stand-out actor in the show. She's excellent.

Biggins

Tim Weiner has been bombed by the Soviets and roughed up by Israelis, but nothing quite prepared him for Claire Danes

I have had some unsettling moments over the course of three decades reporting and writing on US intelligence operations. I have trekked seven times into the foothills of the Hindu Kush with Afghan guerrillas. The first time, I was bombed by the Soviet Air Force; the last time, by the US. I have interrogated the chiefs of the CIA; in turn, I have been interrogated, sometimes roughly, by spies for Israel, Pakistan and Sudan.

But nothing quite prepared me for my questioning by Claire Danes, the unsettlingly intelligent star of Homeland, the riveting television series in which she plays a possibly unhinged CIA officer tracking a US war hero who may be a murderous sleeper agent for al-Qaeda.

Danes, who was educated at the Dalton School, the most exclusive educational establishment in the Upper East Side of Manhattan, was preparing to start the pilot episode of Homeland. She wanted to pick my brain and had called at the suggestion of a creator of the pilot, Alex Gansa, who had read of a book of mine about the history of the CIA. He said that he was sleeping with the book. I am sure they say that to all the scribblers.

Danes shattered my preconceptions about television actors. She is without question the smartest person of her profession I have ever encountered, especially on the subject of secret intelligence. She was especially adept on the subjects of acting and verisimilitude, the appearance of being real. A great deal of what happens in Homeland takes place behind her eyes, between her ears, in her cerebral cortex; it is her particular genius to make her thinking visible, to make her eyes the window into her troubled soul.

The premise of the show is that a US prisoner of war, held captive for years by Islamic terrorists, is freed and returns home a war hero. Or is he? Might he not be what he appears to be? Danes is a CIA officer who suspects the worst: that our hero is a sleeper agent for al-Qaeda, the slow-burning fuse for the next 9/11 attack.

We learn early on that our CIA officer is no Jane Bond. She has been sidelined from covert operations overseas because she may be psychologically unstable. Her genius as an intelligence officer is contained within her powers of mind; those same powers may be her undoing and the undoing of the US as well.

Not by coincidence, the show’s creators and principal authors spent years after the 9/11 attacks working on 24, the most popular TV series about terrorism of its day. That was the heyday of the new model of 21st-century US counter-terrorism; it was the premise of 24 that every suspected terrorist was a ticking time bomb and the threats they posed could be defused by force. It is no exaggeration to say that 24 was a running advertisement for the counter-terrorism policies of President George W. Bush — secret prisons and secret torture.

Homeland is, by contrast, a Barack Obama show. We know that the CIA officer played by Danes has had a hard life in the years after 9/11. We know that her job is to help to keep the US safe from the next terrorist attack. We also know that she might be a sociopath.

What Danes wanted to know in our first conversation was how to look at her audience. The game she was playing was not poker; it was chess. And each pawn was a potential hand grenade. Her métier was to be not only intelligence but counter-intelligence; the question of knowing what your enemy is thinking. It is a field of acting in which only the strongest survive — Alec Guinness as Smiley, or Cary Grant in Notorious. There is no role model among actresses for Danes; she would be inventing a new one.

What she wanted to know during our 90-minute conversation was how intelligence officers think; how they know what they know; why they hold those truths to be self-evident; why they think they understand what other people are thinking; how they present their cases to their superiors as root truth, even when they know that their evidence is a farrago of hearsay, innuendo, rumour, gossip and horse feathers.
This was a world familiar to a British audience, especially viewers raised on cinematic adaptations of the works of Graham Greene and John le Carré. US audiences are not as well-versed in ambiguity. But Danes is unusually subtle. She is one of those rare actors — like Grant or Tilda Swinton — who can act with their eyes. You can begin to decode the encrypted signals in her mind.

Danes understood from the start that intelligence is more of an art than a profession, more like stagecraft than surgery. It is a human endeavour and thus prone to human error, to failure, and to folly. We discussed how intelligence operations usually take years to come to fruition, that there are no silver bullets, that torture is rarely a successful means of interrogation. She knew that intelligence operations involve secrets, which often can be unravelled, and mysteries, which are only rarely revealed. She grasped that when a skilled intelligence officer smells flowers, she looks around for a funeral.

She and her writers also consulted with some of the more militant of the CIA’s veterans, who would quibble with some of these propositions and argue that blunt force is a useful tool of counter-terrorism. These consultants included Cofer Black, who as the chief of the clandestine service after 9/11 vowed to bring President Bush the severed head of Osama bin Laden. In this Black failed. His more level-headed successors succeeded, thanks to the work of the US Navy Seals who arranged for bin Laden’s corpse to be buried at sea in the traditions of the Navy, rather than paraded down the corridors of the CIA.

Because a full season of the show has been aired in the US, I will keep some of the secrets still unseen by viewers in the UK. Suffice it to say that Homeland’s creators hope the show will go on for years and that the arc of the story they plan to tell is a long and twisted tale. Yet much of what is to come can be seen in the show’s opening moments, when televised images of terror are being beamed into a little girl’s brain.
The bipolarity of the transformation of her mind is the transition from innocence to bitter experience. That is the heart of Homeland and the essence of Danes’s embodiment of the hard work of intelligence. We know from newspapers, movies and TV that intelligence is a distasteful and dangerous business in which human beings are damaged and often destroyed. What we learn from Homeland is what it is like when the hunter is captured by the game.

‘I like Carrie so much’ Claire Danes talks to Tim Weiner
How do you inhabit the mind of Carrie Mathison?

I did a lot of research. I went to CIA headquarters with a serving covert-operations officer — a woman — and I met lots of her colleagues. She assembled a pretty big and diverse group of women and men, and they were very forthcoming about their experiences. I was elated after that day. It was a thrill to peek inside that culture. With the bipolar aspect, I talked with [the mental health expert] Julie Fast. We diagnosed Carrie’s illness together.
I watched YouTube videos of people who are manic, and need to talk, and are eager to communicate their feelings. I just gorged on these videos. Every case is unique.

Is the role rough on you psychologically or spiritually?

Yes, it is. It’s taxing. I like her so much. There’s a part of her that’s a superhero. She’s supernaturally intelligent, and I wish I had that gift. But she is hypervigilant. And she is incredibly, profoundly lonely — and that is difficult to carry about. The hours are extreme: 12 hours a day, 15 hours. But I show up, I hit my marks and I say my lines. And the writers give me great lines.

Why do you think the show has struck such a chord with audiences?

We live in incredibly anxious times. Everyone is really unsure of what the boundaries are. We are fighting a war that is unrecognisable and amorphous. And that creates incredible unease. The show addresses that, and I think that rings a bell.
Have you had feedback from the CIA?
They are in the business of recruiting. They are always recruiting. And any awareness of the job works to the advantage of the CIA.
24 was the Bush counter-terrorism show.

Is Homeland the Obama counter-terrorism show?

It does a pretty good job of not taking one political side. It’s a magic trick that the writers perform: it’s incredibly relevant but not politically alienating. All of the characters are morally suspect, but all of them are well-intentioned. Everybody’s trying to save the world.

Tim Weiner is the author of Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA (Penguin) and Enemies: A History of the FBI (Allen Lane)

From The Times.

Oleander

Missed the ending of episode 3 on Ch4 where Carrie follows Brody into the support group, and he goes outside to talk to her, what happened after - anyone know?

brimal

Oleander wrote: »

Missed the ending of episode 3 on Ch4 where Carrie follows Brody into the support group, and he goes outside to talk to her, what happened after - anyone know?

They spend a few minutes outside talking (and flirting) and then Carrie leaves.

They don't talk about anything really important, but the flirting is definitely obvious.

Oleander

brimal wrote: »

They spend a few minutes outside talking (and flirting) and then Carrie leaves.

They don't talk about anything really important, but the flirting is definitely obvious.

Oh sorry, it was Episode 4 not 3! Thanks for that, I thought I might have missed something important.

don ramo

returning 30th of september with dexter, SWEET:)

http://www.thewrap.com/tv/article/showtime-dexter-get-return-dates-36160

brimal

Actually forgot to ask this, what happened with the SD Card with the 'suicide note' on it Brody recorded and hid behind the wall in the park and couldn't find it after?

Did Tom Walker (black guy who was killed by Brody in finale) grab it? Did we ever see what happened to it?

DeepBlue

brimal wrote: »

Did Tom Walker (black guy who was killed by Brody in finale) grab it? Did we ever see what happened to it?

Nope, we didn't see what happened with it. It was one of the unanswered questions along with who the mole was in the CIA.

brimal

DeepBlue wrote: »

Nope, we didn't see what happened with it. It was one of the unanswered questions along with who the mole was in the CIA.

Oh yea forgot about the mole too. I was thinking Carrie's boss, Estes.

Also, didn't Carrie's boss get that young guy who works with Carrie to spy on her and find out what extra work she is doing? The guy questioned her in the car for a few minutes in one scene but then this sub-plot never progressed at all.