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"New law could criminalise men for buying sex" (IT)

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    #242
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I dont know. If I grow tons of marijuana in my closet and choose to sell it of my free will why is it a crime?

    exactly. Why is it a crime?


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    #243
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,494 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I dont know. If I grow tons of marijuana in my closet and choose to sell it of my free will why is it a crime?
    Yeah, that argument doesn't work given that 90% of people who would be for the legalisation of prostitution would also be for the legalisation of drugs. But since the current status of prostitution is apparently so important to you, lets take it out of the argument. Lets say, hypothetically, prostitution has never existed to this point. Then someone comes up with the bright idea to sell a sexual service. So, starting from that blank slate:
    28064212 wrote: »
    A woman decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?

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    #244
    Oroel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭Oroel


    Find me a girl like that then, if there are so many of them.

    working girls HAVE to keep the happy hooker thing up, for their own mental stability and to keep business. Of course they are not going to publicly say 'its really **** and i hate myself everytime, i want to die afterwards'. they have to protect themselves. It;s avery very very very dangerous job, there are pimps threatening you (especailly if you dont have one yourself) and other girls threatenign you all the ****ing time. really i have to stop these internet arguments. it gets so frustrating and depressing and i hate it.
    please just believe what i say, research the industry yourself, talk to people who really know it, on both sides. Stop believign the pop culture myths of prostitution. Either way, the rule will either happen or not, not much you can do about it.


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    #245
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    tbh wrote: »
    exactly. Why is it a crime?

    But we are not talking about why its a crime. We are talking about as per the thread title, whether it should be criminalised to fund the crime.


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    #246
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    I think the game being referred to is that of making up statistics to suit your own argument. You came out with very specific statistics yet you did not cite a single source for any of them. This is a problem. If we just let everyone make up statistics willy nilly conversation would become almost meaningless on a forum such as this. We would all just state our position, make up some convenient numbers that suit us well, and sit back smug.

    The expectation here is that if you wish to use statistics to back up some point you are making, then you cite the source of those statistics. Ranting, calling everyone "immature" with a "closed mind" and having a flounce saying you will not post again, then posting again anyway and saying how "upset" all this disagreement makes you... then saying again you are "gone" before seconds later making yet another post.... all this harms your case more than saying nothing at all. You have literally done more damage to your cause than if you had never posted and you risk ripping your credibility to shreds where... if you try a little harder... you might actually have quite a lot very interesting and useful to say.

    I say none of this to attack you, but to show you that you could do much better, really offer us here something of use, and represent yourself much better. I am not attacking here, but offering helpful criticism on your delivery and approach and suggesting that whatever you want to achieve by posting here, you are achieving the exact opposite by acting as you are.



    No and I can not say that I do either. People on here all too often pretend to have just the exact qualifications or work experience to fit the agenda they have in posting. There is one user who pretends to be a lawyer when talking to me. There was another user who pretended in a science debate to have all kinds of qualifications in Physics, and then proceeded to claims things that even a 12 year old Science Junior Cert students knows are wrong. We here have learned from experience to listen to WHAT a person is saying not WHO they claim is saying it. If what you are saying has no merit at all then claiming to have work experience in the field adds literally nothing to your argument.



    Even if any of this is true it is still one single anecdote. Just because one person claims to have had a bad experience this does not mean all people in the same career have the same experience. You are extrapolating your own experience... which if true is awful and I hope you seek and receive the proper help as you need it and you get past this dark period of your life... into a vast generalization about the industry as a whole.

    The problem is there is likely very few, if any, careers on the planet where this is not so. There is always someone who has been used, abused, mistreated and worse. Whether working in McDonalds or working in Holywood... there will always be a dark anecdote from someone, and that someone... like you... might feel that this is everyone’s experience even if it is not and will speak out against the career path itself.

    This is damaging more than helpful but alas it happens all the time because rarely people who have had a good time… or an indifferent time… in a job feel inclined to speak out. It is often only ever those who have had a hard time in a career that speak out about it and so if we allow ourselves to be colored by these handfuls of anecdotes we would likely think every career on the planet is a hell hole.

    I have one thing to say what woman in right mind sells herself be it whether she is mentally challenged or emotionally or forced or out of desperation for money or drugs.All boils down to it is women being taken advantage of.IMO


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    #247
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,494 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    caseyann wrote: »
    I have one thing to say what woman in right mind sells herself be it whether she is mentally challenged or emotionally or forced or out of desperation for money or drugs.All boils down to it is women being taken advantage of.IMO
    What person in their right minds works in sewers all day long? What person in their right minds works in customer service? What person in their right minds would appear on reality tv? What person in their right minds would work in McDonalds?

    Do you want to take a crack at the very simple scenario I posted earlier? No-one's responded to it yet (other than to say "because it's illegal" or "it couldn't possibly happen")
    28064212 wrote: »
    A woman who decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?

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    #248
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    caseyann wrote: »
    Some people just have no clue or never had friends who did these things.No one starts out wanting to sell their bodies for sex unless one of any of the reasons you say they do.
    Prostitution is a forced thing on society of men and women i agree with you hundred percent and i admire you for speaking out.
    I am also sorry you had such an awful time in life and i hope things have gotten alot happier for you.:)
    I remember a house across the road from us there was a load of non Irish in the house with guys.The women came and went all the time and the men and cars outside the house it was crazy.So one day i saw one of the girls was pregnant and i thought how nice.After she had the baby i never saw the baby except the weekends for a few hours.And then off he went in a car with a load of men and wouldnt be back for another few weeks.I didnt think much of it.But now i look back and knowing what happened i think about it alot.
    The house was raided these girls were being held against their will and prostituted out.Her son had been removed for under threat if she tried to get out of it they would kill him.
    I was sickened that was going on in a house across the road from me.
    Happy ending though she got her son back and went home.

    I think it is very important for some to truly believe that these women WANT to have sex. It is inconceiveable or cannot be allowed into the schema to consider they dont want to be there. It threatens the fantasy.


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    #249
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    caseyann wrote: »
    I have one thing to say what woman in right mind sells herself be it whether she is mentally challenged or emotionally or forced or out of desperation for money or drugs.All boils down to it is women being taken advantage of.IMO
    Why did you post that in response to nozzferrahhtoo's post - there's practically no connection between it and your response.
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I think it is very important for some to truly believe that these women WANT to have sex. It is inconceiveable or cannot be allowed into the schema to consider they dont want to be there. It threatens the fantasy.
    That's an interesting bit of psychobabble. Is it an opinion or has anything here been said by anyone to back it up?


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    #250
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    caseyann wrote: »
    I have one thing to say what woman in right mind sells herself be it whether she is mentally challenged or emotionally or forced or out of desperation for money or drugs.All boils down to it is women being taken advantage of.IMO

    A complete non-sequitar to anything I just said so I do not know why you are saying it to me, but I will continue all the same... though I am having a massive case of Deja Vu... I think you or someone else did EXACTLY this thing on another thread about this very same topic...

    Thankfully there is no reason on offer by you to think it any more than your opinion so it is as well you ended with IMO, let alone an actual fact in reality. In fact your opinion seems not to match reality in any way I can personally discern.

    Just because you do not want to engage in the same enterprise does not mean you get to declare by fiat that anyone who does is not “in right mind”.

    Our subjective opinions on the career choices of others does not reflect on the career choice itself. I would never, for example, want to work in the army, in a mine, in McDonalds, in any kind of direct hands on law enforcement, or with children under the age of 10. Yet people do it all the time, and I do not judge them for it. It is not right for ME to do those jobs, that does not mean I have any right to question the “right mind” of those people.


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    #251
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    28064212 wrote: »
    What person in their right minds works in sewers all day long? What person in their right minds works in customer service? What person in their right minds would appear on reality tv? What person in their right minds would work in McDonalds?

    Do you want to take a crack at the very simple scenario I posted earlier? No-one's responded to it yet (other than to say "because it's illegal" or "it couldn't possibly happen")

    Well then i guess in her own home or hotel and she has proven her mental state and she hasnt been coerced or threatened into it then she is free to do that let her pay taxes on it.That way she is safe they know what she does and where she frequents etc..
    And the other jobs are nothing like what you are trying to compare them to.


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    #252
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    A complete non-sequitar to anything I just said so I do not know why you are saying it to me, but I will continue all the same... though I am having a massive case of Deja Vu... I think you or someone else did EXACTLY this thing on another thread about this very same topic...

    Thankfully there is no reason on offer by you to think it any more than your opinion so it is as well you ended with IMO, let alone an actual fact in reality. In fact your opinion seems not to match reality in any way I can personally discern.

    Just because you do not want to engage in the same enterprise does not mean you get to declare by fiat that anyone who does is not “in right mind”.

    Our subjective opinions on the career choices of others does not reflect on the career choice itself. I would never, for example, want to work in the army, in a mine, in McDonalds, in any kind of direct hands on law enforcement, or with children under the age of 10. Yet people do it all the time, and I do not judge them for it. It is not right for ME to do those jobs, that does not mean I have any right to question the “right mind” of those people.

    It actually did,it was in reference to this.(Even if any of this is true it is still one single anecdote. Just because one person claims to have had a bad experience this does not mean all people in the same career have the same experience)
    Those anecdotes as you call them are far wider and more frequent than you know.


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    #253
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    caseyann wrote: »
    It actually did,it was in reference to this.(Even if any of this is true it is still one single anecdote. Just because one person claims to have had a bad experience this does not mean all people in the same career have the same experience)
    That makes no rational sense. Sorry.


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    #254
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I think it is very important for some to truly believe that these women WANT to have sex. It is inconceiveable or cannot be allowed into the schema to consider they dont want to be there. It threatens the fantasy.

    What i dont doubt is some of them women become accustomed to their life style and do want to have sex with men and make money as like in porn industry.But the worry is why? And how does it come about.
    If i was a man/woman going to either female or male prostitutes depending on my preference, in good conscience i really couldn't.Because in back of my mind i would have those thoughts why are they doing this and what led them here and feel guilty for taking advantage of god knows what situation.


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    #255
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,494 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    caseyann wrote: »
    Well then i guess in her own home or hotel and she has proven her mental state and she hasnt been coerced or threatened into it then she is free to do that let her pay taxes on it.That way she is safe they know what she does and where she frequents etc..
    And all plumbers, accountants, sewer workers, McDonalds workers and electricians have to prove their mental state before they start working? And work from their own home (somehow)?
    caseyann wrote: »
    And the other jobs are nothing like what you are trying to compare them to.
    Why? At the very least give a reason why you hold that opinion, even if you're not backing it up with anything other than your own statements.

    What about a masseuse btw? What's the difference between the following two scenarios:
    28064212 wrote: »
    A woman decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?
    28064212 wrote: »
    A woman decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a masseuse. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?

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    #256
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Why did you post that in response to nozzferrahhtoo's post - there's practically no connection between it and your response.

    That's an interesting bit of psychobabble. Is it an opinion or has anything here been said by anyone to back it up?

    It's an opinion, no need to demean it by calling it psychobabble.


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    #257
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,494 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I think it is very important for some to truly believe that these women WANT to have sex. It is inconceiveable or cannot be allowed into the schema to consider they dont want to be there. It threatens the fantasy.
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    It's an opinion, no need to demean it by calling it psychobabble.
    The problem is you're assigning meaning to other people's posts based on... well, nothing as far as I can see. I have no idea whether there are women (or men for that matter, it's not an exclusive profession) who want to sell their sexual services. I do know that there are women who are in the profession that don't want to be.

    But none of that makes the slightest bit of difference to the fact that if someone exists that does want to sell a sexual service, there is no reason in the world that they shouldn't be allowed to

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    #258
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    28064212 wrote: »
    The problem is you're assigning meaning to other people's posts based on... well, nothing as far as I can see. I have no idea whether there are women (or men for that matter, it's not an exclusive profession) who want to sell their sexual services. I do know that there are women who are in the profession that don't want to be.

    But none of that makes the slightest bit of difference to the fact that if someone exists that does want to sell a sexual service, there is no reason in the world that they shouldn't be allowed to

    Do you have stats on conviction rates?

    Because from what I can see they are allowed to.

    Would be ok with your daughter doing it? How about your mother?


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    #259
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    It's an opinion, no need to demean it by calling it psychobabble.
    You were attempting to give a psychological diagnosis based upon opinion, not even anything said by anybody here - that it why I called it psychobabble.

    To call it that does not so much demean it as returns it back to the level of objective credibility it deserves.


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    #260
    Gunsfortoys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭Gunsfortoys


    I would vote against it.

    I agree it should be regulated to protect the people involved in selling it. Trafficking would subside and people would be protected.

    I cannot see how anyone other than women with an obvious chip on their shoulder, or blinkered hard line feminists would agree to this law.


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    #261
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You were attempting to give a psychological diagnosis based upon opinion, not even anything said by anybody here - that it why I called it psychobabble.

    To call it that does not so much demean it as returns it back to the level of objective credibility it deserves.

    Nowhere did I give a diagnosis. I nowhere mentioned, hinted or suggested anything remotely related to mental illness.

    It deserves whatever credibility people want to give it. Just because you dont like it doesn't mean others wouldn't find some credence in it or that it doesnt deserve credence. You called it psychobabble as a put down, plain and simple.

    That is the nature of opinion, which is different from diagnosis, and yes you did demean it, only because you dont agree with it.


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    #262
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,494 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Do you have stats on conviction rates?

    Because from what I can see they are allowed to.
    So because a law isn't currently enforced, we should keep it? And there are prostitution prosecutions in this country
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Would be ok with your daughter doing it? How about your mother?
    This old argument. No. Of course there are many hundreds of jobs I don't want my daughter to work as. It's her choice though. Should I lock her up so that she can't do anything I don't want her too? I would be no more opposed to her working as a safe, regulated prostitute than I would be with her working in many other currently legal jobs

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    #263
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Gunsfortoys wrote: »
    I would vote against it.

    I agree it should be regulated to protect the people involved in selling it. Trafficking would subside and people would be protected.

    I cannot see how anyone other than women with an obvious chip on their shoulder, or blinkered hard line feminists would agree to this law.

    A lot of feminists are pro prostitution. They would follow the same philosophy as 280 about it.


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    #264
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Nowhere did I give a diagnosis.
    Actually you diagnosed the psychological motive for some - that is how you framed it - and not as an opinion.
    It deserves whatever credibility people want to give it. Just because you dont like it doesn't mean others wouldn't find some credence in it.
    And I gave it the credibility I wanted to give it, based upon the manner in which you dressed it up.


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    #265
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Actually you diagnosed the psychological motive for some - that is how you framed it - and not as an opinion.

    And I gave it the credibility I wanted to give it, based upon the manner in which you dressed it up.

    No I didnt. I did not do any sort of diagnosis because this has nothing to do with mental illness.

    People like to imagine things in one way and they do not like other possibilities to enter their imaginations when they are asserting their opinions and projections.

    That is NOT diagnosis. Its not even in the realm of psychology, and even if it were you still cannot call someone's opinion 'psychobabble' without it being anything but a put down.

    Are you done " babbling? "


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    #266
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Its not even in the realm of psychology
    I think we can agree upon that.


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    #267
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I think it is very important for some to truly believe that these women WANT to have sex. It is inconceiveable or cannot be allowed into the schema to consider they dont want to be there. It threatens the fantasy.

    I find this hugely ironic. It is obviously very important for you to believe the opposite of the above. You are as close minded as those you seek to deride with that post. What you are demonstrating is arrogance - you're saying that anyone who has an opinion contrary to yours is a fantasist.


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    #268
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    That's an interesting bit of psychobabble. Is it an opinion or has anything here been said by anyone to back it up?

    ok, this is the last warning on this I'm going to give. I've warned you and metro very clearly about these derisory remarks. Its becoming apparent that you are ignoring our efforts to keep this forum a pleasant place to post - so I'm going to say, one final time, if you cannot make your point without making these types of remarks, then the only solution is to remove you from the forum.


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    #269
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    tbh wrote: »
    I find this hugely ironic. It is obviously very important for you to believe the opposite of the above. You are as close minded as those you seek to deride with that post. What you are demonstrating is arrogance - you're saying that anyone who has an opinion contrary to yours is a fantasist.

    No that is not what I am saying, but however I will not bother anymore with it since this is now the second time you have practised the very thing you have warned me about doing on this thread and its hardly an equal playing field if you can throw comments around like 'all in your head' [obviously labelling me a hallucinating fantasist] and 'demonstrating arrogance' making further personalised comments while I risk getting banned by you if I do the same.


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    #270
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Oroel has asked for one of her posts to be removed. Under the circumstances, I've agreed to it, and I've also deleted referencing posts - I know some of those posts took a long time to write, and so it was a decision that was not taken lightly. However. As I said, given the circumstances I think it's the right thing to do.


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    #271
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Reward the "used for sex" thing as said by women means this.

    You meet a guy, he says he really likes you, he can't believe he has such a connection with you, he thinks you are "the one", he calls and texts you every day, you really like him aswell.

    You sleep with him. The minute after you sleep with him he goes stone cold on you and doesn't want to know you.

    This is what leads women to feel used for sex. That a man can completely lie to them to get what he wants, (sex) and then ditch them. This makes you feel worthless as a human being.

    This happened to me once, and I thought for ages, "how could I have been so wrong? How did I get it so wrong?"

    This is why women feel used. I sometimes think men don't realise the hurt they can inflict on women in this type of scenario.


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