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"New law could criminalise men for buying sex" (IT)

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    #212
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Well there is risk in everything. But if my crippled husband insisted I see prostitutes there would be a far far greater risk of me leaving him.

    but why would he insist? Nobodys insisting you do anything!


    Do you mean "if he insisted you went to prostitutes rather than met men for sex through other methods"?

    it's like someone going to a butcher purely to buy meat, and someone going to a butcher because they are actively seeking the butchers company. where would you rather your husband got his sausages?


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    #213
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Well there is risk in everything.
    Of course there is risk in everything - but that does not mean that everything carries the same risk.
    But if my crippled husband insisted I see prostitutes there would be a far far greater risk of me leaving him.
    Again, that's you and you cannot apply your own reaction to the rest of humanity.

    Secondly, I doubt your crippled husband would insist you saw prostitutes, but he might insist that whomever you see there is no emotional attachment whatsoever and that would limit your options, especially if you were a man.


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    #214
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Of course there is risk in everything - but that does not mean that everything carries the same risk.

    Again, that's you and you cannot apply your own reaction to the rest of humanity.

    Secondly, I doubt your crippled husband would insist you saw prostitutes, but he might insist that whomever you see there is no emotional attachment whatsoever and that would limit your options, especially if you were a man.

    Im not applying my reaction to the rest of humanity. I started out saying my perspective is most likely eccentric. And then tbh asked me for MY response to a specific scenario.

    I find the insistance on a wife or husband banging someone who doesn't care about them is not a fair demand. Its pretty mean actually. If you cant have sex you have no right to tell someone else who they can and cant sleep with. Sorry.

    Tbh brought up a particulalry fraught example as it is a master slave one which usually just ends in misery anyway.


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    #215
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,526 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    tbh wrote: »
    However, comparing murder and prostitution is a flawed argument, with respect, because of the concept of consent.
    If both parties freely, and under no duress, give consent to exchange money in exchange for sex, that's not quite the same as what stalin did ;)
    The underlined part is an argument for legalising prostitution (and the only one which really matters).

    You're leaving out one of the parties in the prostitution argument: the spouse who has not given their consent. It wasn't your point anyway, so never mind.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Now this is getting ridiculous - first you claim that "the method he uses is completely irrelevant", now it's only irrelevant if we're discussing consequences, because you've decided that risk cannot be considered (for some reason)
    The method he uses is completely irrelevant because the consequences are the same. How is risk relevant? He's breaking the marriage agreement regardless of how he does it. You're looking at a law that's wrong, and saying it's a good idea to make it slightly easier to break that law, even though the punishment will be the same
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    and on top of this you have presumed that the risk difference is minimal - which frankly even looking at it from a distance it's pretty obvious that such a judgment would at best be an underestimate.
    And you have presumed it's a massive risk difference. Look at the threads in PI where a spouse has found evidence of their partner visiting a prostitute
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I've never said this.
    Then what is your argument? That people should be allowed cheat indiscriminately with no consequences, and that prostitutes are the best way to do that?
    caseyann wrote: »
    Worked in Sweden
    In your opinion. In my opinion, it hasn't even achieved its stated aims, never mind the fact that its stated aims are completely reggressive
    caseyann wrote: »
    will stop the trafficking of women also.
    No, it most definitely will not

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    #216
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    28064212 wrote: »

    The method he uses is completely irrelevant because the consequences are the same. How is risk relevant? He's breaking the marriage agreement regardless of how he does it. You're looking at a law that's wrong, and saying it's a good idea to make it slightly easier to break that law, even though the punishment will be the same


    And you have presumed it's a massive risk difference. Look at the threads in PI where a spouse has found evidence of their partner visiting a prostitute

    Oh yes. You hear about them getting caught all the time. Heidi Fleiss anyone?


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    #217
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    28064212 wrote: »
    The underlined part is an argument for legalising prostitution (and the only one which really matters).

    yes, but that time I was making my argument for legalising prostitution. When you asked me the first time, I wasn't.
    You're leaving out one of the parties in the prostitution argument: the spouse who has not given their consent. It wasn't your point anyway, so never mind.

    A spouse who has or hasn't given their consent is irrelevant. We don't use that as a basis for legislating for anything - a spouse may not consent to their spouse drinking, or smoking, or playing xbox. Those are not reasons to make those activities illegal.


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    #218
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,526 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    tbh wrote: »
    A spouse who has or hasn't given their consent is irrelevant. We don't use that as a basis for legislating for anything - a spouse may not consent to their spouse drinking, or smoking, or playing xbox. Those are not reasons to make those activities illegal.
    Agreed. It's also not a reason to make something legal. Which is my whole point, it's a complete irrelevancy

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    #219
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Oh yes. You hear about them getting caught all the time. Heidi Fleiss anyone?

    the fact that you are talking about Heidi Fleiss, who was in the news all of 18 years ago, to support your argument would seem to contradict your point that you hear of people being caught "all the time". ;)
    One case 18 years ago does not support an "all the time" argument, with respect.


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    #220
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    28064212 wrote: »
    Agreed. It's also not a reason to make something legal. Which is my whole point, it's a complete irrelevancy

    gotcha - we're discounting the whole spouse thing as a factor in deciding whether it should be legal or not. I agree.


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    #221
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    tbh wrote: »
    the fact that you are talking about Heidi Fleiss, who was in the news all of 18 years ago, to support your argument would seem to contradict your point that you hear of people being caught "all the time". ;)
    One case 18 years ago does not support an "all the time" argument, with respect.

    That was just one example. It pops up on PI and Im sure everyone knows one or two caught someone out. I know I do.


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    #222
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    28064212 wrote: »



    In your opinion. In my opinion, it hasn't even achieved its stated aims, never mind the fact that its stated aims are completely reggressive


    No, it most definitely will not


    Not my opinion its Swedish authorities opinion.They say it has halved.


    However, the 1999 law has helped them to break gangs of organised crime from other countries that had infiltrated Sweden and its sex industry.

    I was very impressed that the politicians, the police, and society as a whole have made a clear point of sticking to their guns
    At the end of an investigation, each bust results in between 15 to 20 arrests. Unlike in this country, the women are free to go, and they get directed towards support agencies

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6343325.stm


    The project counsels men who need help with how they should feel about women.


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    #223
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Im not applying my reaction to the rest of humanity. I started out saying my perspective is most likely eccentric. And then tbh asked me for MY response to a specific scenario.

    I find the insistance on a wife or husband banging someone who doesn't care about them is not a fair demand. Its pretty mean actually. If you cant have sex you have no right to tell someone else who they can and cant sleep with. Sorry.

    Tbh brought up a particulalry fraught example as it is a master slave one which usually just ends in misery anyway.

    why the hell do you keep talking about insistence? Nobody is insisting anyone do anything! If I was impotent for the rest of my life, I wouldn't be insisting my wife have sex with anyone - I'm saying that I would understand if she felt the need to have sex with someone, and if she did, I would prefer it was with someone she had no emotional attachment to. Is that genuinely so hard for you to understand? The master/slave thing is all in your head.


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    #224
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,526 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    caseyann wrote: »
    Not my opinion its Swedish authorities opinion.They say it has halved.
    :pac: They would, wouldn't they.

    But in fact, they haven't said that. They said it has halved street prostitution. In a timeframe which coincided with massive growth in internet access for the general public

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    #225
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,526 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    caseyann wrote: »
    I was very impressed that the politicians, the police, and society as a whole have made a clear point of sticking to their guns
    At the end of an investigation, each bust results in between 15 to 20 arrests. Unlike in this country, the women are free to go, and they get directed towards support agencies

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6343325.stm
    From that article:
    She [a prostitute] said that because there wasn't supposed to be prostitution, there were no drop-in centres for health checks, and no-one handing out condoms or needles.

    Only one of the five [prostitutes] had anything positive to say about the legislation.
    Why are the women free to go? Are they not breaking the law. Do we let drug dealers go because some of them may have ended up there because they were victims of their circumstances too?

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    #226
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    caseyann wrote: »


    The project counsels men who need help with how they should feel about women.

    I'm a little bit worries about this sentence in particular. It seems to me as if it's saying that all men who use prostitutes are automatically misogynists of some sort. As you can see from this thread the reasons men use prostitutes are far, far, far more varied and complex than that.


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    #227
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    HavingCrack wrote: »
    I'm a little bit worries about this sentence in particular. It seems to me as if it's saying that all men who use prostitutes are automatically misogynists of some sort. As you can see from this thread the reasons men use prostitutes are far, far, far more varied and complex than that.
    This is actually the point to this thread. Taking what Casyann has posted as an example, she has cited trafficking, yet has ignored earlier discussions that put in question that any significant trafficking actually takes place. The question of why men engage prostitutes is also ignored. Additionally she quotes an article but omits that the very prostitutes the law is designed to protect have little positive to say about it.

    The whole topic appears to be more about ideology and has very little to do with the women it claims to represent, because it does not even consider the model of full legalization and regulation, that you find in countries like Holland and Germany, as an option. It patronizingly isn't even terribly interested in the opinions of actual prostitutes either. On top of which you have counseling for men sounding like reeducation programs.

    Which brings us back to the question posed in the original topic. Who does such a law actually serve?


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    #228
    Oroel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭Oroel


    it's not ridiculous, or anything else people have been saying. It is actually extremely progressive and forward thinking, and i am proud of Ireland for this.
    Just because 'some' girls are there by choice, means it's fine for everyone else?

    the following are not choices:
    needing to feed your children
    needing to feed your drug habit
    being mentally unstable is not a choice
    being coerced is not a choice
    being trafficked is not a choice
    having such low self worth due to past trauma that you end up in a vulnerable position is not a choice.

    the facts are:
    9/10 women don't want to be in and dont see how they can get out of it
    2 thirds of sex workers have been abused or seriously sexually assaulted

    Also the vast majority of people dont have a CLUE about the industry or how it works.
    in the Netherlands, since they legalised, trafficking has gone up over 50%.
    It is like disguising a fake leaf in a bush, much easier to get away with.

    i am not going to get into this, as arguing on the internet about something so huge will get upsetting for me.

    People, PLEASE stop believing the Belle de Jour rubbish, it does not even reflect HER reality.

    The reality of prostitution in Ireland is very different to what people from the outside perceive, it is also very different from what the punters perceive. And it isn't a very nice place, for anyone involved.


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    #229
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Oroel wrote: »
    i am not going to get into this, as arguing on the internet about something so huge will get upsetting for me.
    Seeing as we're playing this game...

    98.6% of all trafficking cases have been discredited.
    4/5 of all prostitutes would not voluntarily leave prostitution as the income it provides far outstrips any other job they could get.
    65% of all prostitutes keep Internet blogs, and a further 12% have secured book deals.

    Now, I'm not going to bother to back up any of the above because I would get too upset if I did.


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    #230
    Oroel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭Oroel


    what game?
    You ignore the rest of my post and just focus of stats that i would spend ages and ages getting links to? If you are so interestd you can alwatys research yourself and proove me wrong, instead of taking the piss out of me directly.
    Lots of maturity going on here. I worked as an escort for four years, i know what im talking about, but excellent avoidance of my points there 'corinthian'.

    As i said, this is boards.ie, the worst place to argue or to care about anything. i wont be posting again. Maybe stop being immature and read my post as a mature adult man, if you're up to it, that is.


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    #231
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Oroel wrote: »
    what game?
    You ignore the rest of my post and just focus of stats that i would spend ages and ages getting links to?
    To begin with you ignored the entire thread, which covered and rejected or challanged many of your claims.

    Then your post was little more than opinion and unsubstantiated facts, which you decided we should take on faith because you were refusing to back them up in any subsequent discussion.

    That I parodied your statistics was only to underline how yours could so easily simply be invented.
    If you are so interestd you can alwatys research yourself and proove me wrong, instead of taking the piss out of me directly.
    Why don't you read through the thread because, as I said, many of your points have already been addressed?
    Lots of maturity going on here. I worked as an escort for four years, i know what im talking about, but excellent avoidance of my points there 'corinthian'.
    Yes, and I'm a 14-year old schoolgirl.
    Maybe stop being immature and read my post as a mature adult man, if you're up to it, that is.
    When reason fails attack the person, not the argument - I see. A mature adult should approach all discussion with a mixture of reason and skepticism (including their own arguments) - if your definition of maturity it to blindly accept the opinions of someone on the Internet who won't even defend them, then you and I have different definitions of what constitutes maturity. Or gullibility.


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    #232
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,526 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Oroel wrote: »
    Just because 'some' girls are there by choice, means it's fine for everyone else?
    Some plumbers hate their jobs. They do it because they need to feed to families. Some of them have drug habits. Some of them were abused by plumbers during their childhood and developed an unhealthy obsession with the trade. Will we make plumbers illegal so?

    What is your take on this scenario: a woman who decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?

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    #233
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    28064212 wrote: »
    Some plumbers hate their jobs. They do it because they need to feed to families. Some of them have drug habits. Some of them were abused by plumbers during their childhood and developed an unhealthy obsession with the trade. Will we make plumbers illegal so?

    What is your take on this scenario: a woman who decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?

    Because they are funding illegal activity?

    Do you get punished for buying guns on the blackmarket? [Real question, I dont know, but I assume you do]


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    #234
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    Oroel wrote: »
    what game?
    You ignore the rest of my post and just focus of stats that i would spend ages and ages getting links to? If you are so interestd you can alwatys research yourself and proove me wrong, instead of taking the piss out of me directly.
    Lots of maturity going on here. I worked as an escort for four years, i know what im talking about, but excellent avoidance of my points there 'corinthian'.

    As i said, this is boards.ie, the worst place to argue or to care about anything. i wont be posting again. Maybe stop being immature and read my post as a mature adult man, if you're up to it, that is.


    No need for personal insults Oroel.Also,Id like to draw your attention to our recent charter amendment.If you or anyone else is going to make sweeping statements then the onus is on you to validate these points or expect them to be dissected.


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    #235
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,526 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Because they are funding illegal activity?
    Ehhh... solely because prostitution is illegal. You can't just address the last 6 words of my statement and ignore the entire premise it's built on

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    #236
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    I'd like to boil this down to a simple question that people can answer yes or no to.

    Do you think that a woman should be able to sell sex if she wants to?

    We are assuming that the woman in question is making the decision of her own free will, and is mentally able to make that decision.

    Yes or no?

    For me, yes.


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    #237
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    28064212 wrote: »
    Ehhh... solely because prostitution is illegal. You can't just address the last 6 words of my statement and ignore the entire premise it's built on

    What law says I cant? Of course I can. Its a criminal activity. IF you fund criminal activities you are part of the crime, just like buying drugs or guns.


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    #238
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,526 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    What law says I cant? Of course I can. Its a criminal activity. IF you fund criminal activities you are part of the crime, just like buying drugs or guns.
    So if plumbing was criminalised in the morning, you would be against legalising it?

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    #239
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    What law says I cant? Of course I can. Its a criminal activity. IF you fund criminal activities you are part of the crime, just like buying drugs or guns.

    What he pointed out is that if a woman is not coerced into prostitution and choose to sell sex of hr own free will, why is it a crime?


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    #240
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    HavingCrack wrote: »
    What he pointed out is that if a woman is not coerced into prostitution and choose to sell sex of hr own free will, why is it a crime?

    I dont know. If I grow tons of marijuana in my closet and choose to sell it of my free will why is it a crime?


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    #241
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    28064212 wrote: »
    Personal anecdotes, great, always a good way to decide policy. Despite the wall of text, you didn't answer the question, so I'll quote it again

    At least OREOL is a witness and former participant. I would take that more seriously before Id take removed, decontexualised abstractions.


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