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German man castrates teenage daughter's 57-year-old boyfriend

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    #242
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    prinz wrote: »
    Again we are not talking about hypothetical scenarios.
    that is EXACTLY what we are talking about since we have no idea what the actual scenario was other than the most basic facts.
    prinz wrote: »
    But again, even assuming what you say above, why do you question people's socio-economic backgrounds? Are people from certain socio-economic backgrounds more or less capable of doing anything given the "right circumstances"? :confused:
    if you stood outside a shopping centre in Ballymun and did a survey on the basic facts of this case, (i.e. father of 17 year old girl cuts off the balls of her 57 year old boyfriend) do you think you would get the same responses as you would outside a shopping centre in Dalkey?

    do you think you would get exactly the same responses from childless people in their late teens & early 20's as you would from older people who are parents?

    i'm pretty sure that as you are more likely to find people from the lower classes in ballymun that they would (in general) be much more likely to give you a higher percentage of "good, he deserved it" responses than what is likely to come from the people who would in general tend to be from the higher classes in the Dalkey area.

    that's not to say that one group of people is better or worse than any other, just that (in my opinion) people from the lower classes would tend to sympathise more with vigilantism in certain circumstances than people of higher classes and in general people of a lower class would be more likely to take the law into their own hands if/when they are wronged, particularly if they have already gone to the police and they have said that they can't help them.

    surely you understand that people of the lower classes are more likely to have got the short end of the law or at least know someone that has done and will often have a lower opinion of the legal system in general and as a result would be more likely to take the law into their own hands when they feel they have been wronged?

    do you not think that as a result of that it would extend to people of lower classes being more sympathetic to someone who has taken the law into their own hands when they feel that the legal system has let them down?

    maybe i'm totally wrong, but i don't think I am.


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    #243
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    vibe666 wrote: »
    i'm pretty sure that as you are more likely to find people from the lower classes in ballymun that they would (in general) be much more likely to give you a higher percentage of "good, he deserved it" responses than what is likely to come from the people who would in general tend to be from the higher classes in the Dalkey area.

    that's not to say that one group of people is better or worse than any other, just that (in my opinion) people from the lower classes would tend to sympathise more with vigilantism in certain circumstances than people of higher classes and in general people of a lower class would be more likely to take the law into their own hands if/when they are wronged, particularly if they have already gone to the police and they have said that they can't help them.

    surely you understand that people of the lower classes are more likely to have got the short end of the law or at least know someone that has done and will often have a lower opinion of the legal system in general and as a result would be more likely to take the law into their own hands when they feel they have been wronged?

    do you not think that as a result of that it would extend to people of lower classes being more sympathetic to someone who has taken the law into their own hands when they feel that the legal system has let them down?

    maybe i'm totally wrong, but i don't think I am.

    whoah there! lets not lump all of us in the 'lower classes' together.

    I have witnessed vigilante justice first hand a lot of times in my youth against drug dealers and let me tell you it turns you right off! Its a terrifying unaccountable thing. hence my aversion to it and the same will be said by a huge numebr of people in the community i grew up in.


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    #244
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    sensibleken wrote: »
    whoah there! lets not lump all of us in the 'lower classes' together.

    I have witnessed vigilante justice first hand a lot of times in my youth against drug dealers and let me tell you it turns you right off! Its a terrifying unaccountable thing. hence my aversion to it and the same will be said by a huge numebr of people in the community i grew up in.
    i wasn't lumping anyone in anywhere, that's why i didn't say 'everyone' in a particular class and just said that they would be "more likely", because i recognise that everyone is different.

    do you think that (and i'm not talking about this case, just in general) that where there is no legal recourse and an injustice has been committed, that vigilante justice is better or worse than no justice at all?

    i've witnessed more than my fair share of vigilante justice and have dished out my own at times, but it hasn't changed my view of it at all and i recognise (in my opinion) that sometimes where the law falls short, people must take things into their own hands. BUT, i also recognise that things can get out of hand when this type of thing happens and people should be ready for everything to go wrong and be prepared to accept the consequences of their actions as indeed I have done myself.


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    #245
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    vibe666 wrote: »
    that is EXACTLY what we are talking about since we have no idea what the actual scenario was other than the most basic facts.

    So what? Comment based on the "most basic facts"...... there's no point in commenting on imagined scenarios. That gets us nowhere. For all we know the castration could have come about as some sort of group homosexual activity gone horribly wrong....
    vibe666 wrote: »
    if you stood outside a shopping centre in Ballymun and did a survey on the basic facts of this case, (i.e. father of 17 year old girl cuts off the balls of her 57 year old boyfriend) do you think you would get the same responses as you would outside a shopping centre in Dalkey?

    See you up outside Supervalu on Main St. Ballymun so, because that's where you'll find me. ;)


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    #246
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    prinz wrote: »
    So what? Comment based on the "most basic facts"...... there's no point in commenting on imagined scenarios. That gets us nowhere. For all we know the castration could have come about as some sort of group homosexual activity gone horribly wrong....
    yes it could of for all we know, what's your point because this is exactly what i've been trying to say. without knowing all the details of how it all happened there is no way to know what actually did happen, so any theory about what happened is as valid as any other.
    prinz wrote: »
    See you up outside Supervalu on Main St. Ballymun so, because that's where you'll find me. ;)
    well, whilst you're there why don't you get a clipboard and a pen and start asking people what they think and let us know?


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    #247
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    vibe666 wrote: »
    i wasn't lumping anyone in anywhere, that's why i didn't say 'everyone' in a particular class and just said that they would be "more likely", because i recognise that everyone is different.

    do you think that (and i'm not talking about this case, just in general) that where there is no legal recourse and an injustice has been committed, that vigilante justice is better or worse than no justice at all?

    i've witnessed more than my fair share of vigilante justice and have dished out my own at times, but it hasn't changed my view of it at all and i recognise (in my opinion) that sometimes where the law falls short, people must take things into their own hands. BUT, i also recognise that things can get out of hand when this type of thing happens and people should be ready for everything to go wrong and be prepared to accept the consequences of their actions as indeed I have done myself.


    us poor unwashed urchins are no more inclined to agree with cutting someones balls off than anyone else. Socio-economic status has nothing to do with it. I would also be careful about using 'lower class' to people face

    Second. If all vigilantes were batman then yes. But unfortunetely theyre not. they tend to be thugs shouting 'wheres the justice' when their car gets scrapes and then burning someone elses car as revenge justice.

    Since your a self confessed vigo yourself. Can you define Justice for me?


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    #248
    Spunge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭Spunge


    They are both pretty overrated but.......DAT FOREHEAD


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    #249
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    sensibleken wrote: »
    us poor unwashed urchins are no more inclined to agree with cutting someones balls off than anyone else. Socio-economic status has nothing to do with it. I would also be careful about using 'lower class' to people face
    that is where our opinions and experiences differ. and i didn't say they would be more likely to perform the same act, just that they would be more likely to sympathise with someone who did.

    and why would i be careful about using the term lower class? should i be concerned about using the term middle class or upper class as well? how about working class? what about if someone from the lower classes isn't actually working, what do i call them then? how exactly am i supposed to be referring to people in different socio-economic groups if it's not using the established class reference?:confused:

    i'm most definitely from a lower class background and i have no problem with being called lower class, why would I when it is what I was born? thats not to say that i haven't made anything of my life though, because i have and i'm doing pretty well for myself now but i'm certainly not anything other than working class at most and don't imagine that i ever will be.
    sensibleken wrote: »
    Second. If all vigilantes were batman then yes. But unfortunetely theyre not. they tend to be thugs shouting 'wheres the justice' when their car gets scrapes and then burning someone elses car as revenge justice.
    maybe they are or maybe they aren't but you still didn't answer my question. would you rather that serious criminals who manage to avoid or circumvent the legal system when they commit their crimes saw no justice at all for them and got away scot-free or that they were subjected to vigilante justice instead?
    sensibleken wrote: »
    Since your a self confessed vigo yourself. Can you define Justice for me?
    certainly. if someone commits a serious crime they should be punished for it and the punishment should "fit the crime" as the saying goes, simple as that. in cases where the law is unwilling or unable to provide that punishment then maybe someone else will take it upon themselves to provide it in their place and i'll say good for them and i guarantee that I won't lose any sleep over it.


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    #250
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    vibe666 wrote: »

    i'm most definitely from a lower class background and i have no problem with being called lower class, why would I when it is what I was born? thats not to say that i haven't made anything of my life though, because i have and i'm doing pretty well for myself now but i'm certainly not anything other than working class at most and don't imagine that i ever will be.maybe they are or maybe they aren't but you still didn't answer my question. would you rather that serious criminals who manage to avoid or circumvent the legal system when they commit their crimes saw no justice at all for them and got away scot-free or that they were subjected to vigilante justice instead?
    im drawing a line under the class crap as its really not relevant.

    Whats the crime? whats the punishment? If someone commited the crime and twelve people who saw all the evidence acquited him. Do I think I have the right to kill him, fine him because of what i read in the paper? No.
    vibe666 wrote: »
    certainly. if someone commits a serious crime they should be punished for it and the punishment should "fit the crime" as the saying goes, simple as that. in cases where the law is unwilling or unable to provide that punishment then maybe someone else will take it upon themselves to provide it in their place and i'll say good for them and i guarantee that I won't lose any sleep over it.

    So how would you define unable or unwilling. Is it that you have decided that the punnishment is insufficient? Do you make this assumption based on whats in the paper rather than whats in court.

    Do you understand at all why taking the law into your own hands is illegal? the concept of arbitration perhaps


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    #251
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Whats the crime? whats the punishment? If someone commited the crime and twelve people who saw all the evidence acquited him. Do I think I have the right to kill him, fine him because of what i read in the paper? No.
    who said anything about seeing it in the newspapers?

    okay, here's an example for you. say for instance a man kidnaps, tortures & rapes 3 young girls of 8 to 10 years old, but through a failure in the legal system he is acquitted of all charges, and he then sues the cops/court etc. and gets a large sum of money for his troubles, even though it is very clear that he did the crime.

    do you think its fair for the relatives of those young girls to get together to pay him a visit and spend a few minutes of alone time with him? or he should be allowed to walk free and clear and left to celebrate his freedom with a nice holiday to thailand where he can practice his particular brand of sick 'hobby' in peace?
    sensibleken wrote: »
    So how would you define unable or unwilling. Is it that you have decided that the punnishment is insufficient? Do you make this assumption based on whats in the paper rather than whats in court.

    Do you understand at all why taking the law into your own hands is illegal? the concept of arbitration perhaps
    i understand that criminals should pay for their crimes and that the law does not always provide that punishment.

    there are miscarriages of justice all the time. some small, but some huge and far reaching. should anyone who escapes he legal system be free to carry on their lives as if they have done nothing wrong whilst their victims continue to suffer, or should the friends and family of the victims be condoned for taking the law into their own hands from time to time?


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    #252
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    vibe666 wrote: »
    who said anything about seeing it in the newspapers?

    okay, here's an example for you. say for instance a man kidnaps, tortures & rapes 3 young girls of 8 to 10 years old, but through a failure in the legal system he is acquitted of all charges, and he then sues the cops/court etc. and gets a large sum of money for his troubles, even though it is very clear that he did the crime.

    do you think its fair for the relatives of those young girls to get together to pay him a visit and spend a few minutes of alone time with him? or he should be allowed to walk free and clear and left to celebrate his freedom with a nice holiday to thailand where he can practice his particular brand of sick 'hobby' in peace?

    i understand that criminals should pay for their crimes and that the law does not always provide that punishment.

    there are miscarriages of justice all the time. some small, but some huge and far reaching. should anyone who escapes he legal system be free to carry on their lives as if they have done nothing wrong whilst their victims continue to suffer, or should the friends and family of the victims be condoned for taking the law into their own hands from time to time?

    If the law has failed what makes you more qualified to decide they are guilty?

    You can just as easily flip the situation around. Paul hill met a victim of the guilford bombings for which he was convicted who was still convinced that he did it. should he be allowed to follow that conviction though to harmin Hill?


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    #253
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    sensibleken wrote: »
    If the law has failed what makes you more qualified to decide they are guilty?

    You can just as easily flip the situation around. Paul hill met a victim of the guilford bombings for which he was convicted who was still convinced that he did it. should he be allowed to follow that conviction though to harmin Hill?
    imho, every situation is different and people will decide what they want to do and if they can live with the possible consequences.

    so just to be clear, your opinion is that nobody under any circumstances should ever take the law into their own hands no matter what?


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    #254
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I don't think law is the issue here, but barbarity. I also don't think I'm actually as much in disagreement with you as you think. You said yourself he went too far, yet you also said he shouldn't be judged without the facts - however you yourself judged him by saying he shouldn't have gone as far as he did. That brings me to the conclusion that what you mean is: he shouldn't be judged for being so enraged, without all the facts. If the scenario you describe is the reality, I'd agree - but can do so while still conceding he shouldn't have castrated the guy, however understandable and justifiable his rage was.
    I'm only going to go with the fact we have though: consent. I'm also not so sure whether the truth, if it were like what you've suggested, would be hidden by the media - it's the kinda sh1t lots of people lap up after all...


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    #255
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    Dudess wrote: »
    I'm only going to go with the fact we have though: consent. I'm also not so sure whether the truth, if it were like what you've suggested, would be hidden by the media - it's the kinda sh1t lots of people lap up after all...
    i'm interested in this consent angle because i don't see anything about consent in the article, can you elaborate please on what this fact is?

    as far as the media goes, they will report a story in whatever way they think is going to make them the most money with the leat amount of fuss. potentially slandering someone who has no criminal charges against them is a potential nightmare for them and could cost them a lot of money in legal fees.

    the police won't be able to comment on anything other than the legal facts of the case, i.e. the very basic stuff that's already been said, i.e people involved, names, ages, the nature of the crime that the father was charged with and not much else.

    assuming that german law is similar to that of the UK, when we spoke to the police about charging yer man with rape, we were told that if/when it got to court, that her entire sexual history was fair game for his defence team (he could even represent himself and cross examine her on the stand if he chose to), BUT that even if he had several charges of sexual assult of any kind against him previously, that unless there was actually a previous conviction that it would be inadmissable in court.

    again, i'm not saying that the old guy did actually do anything legally wrong then or previously (we still have no idea) but that he could have had other charges against him but unless there were actually convictions, it's not something that anyone can use.

    anyway, back to the consent thing, because i think i must be misunderstanding what people are talking about when they say "we have the fact of consent".:confused:


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    #256
    Da Shins Kelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    Always the Germans.


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    #257
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    Da Shins Kelly wrote: »
    Always the Germans.

    Ah that's not fair ... to the Belgians.


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    #258
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    AnnyHallsal wrote: »
    Ah that's not fair ... to the Belgians.
    i think the austrians win either way, after all they have fritzl and the other famouse austrian dude who we won't mention by name (no, not arnie). ;)


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    #259
    profitius
    Registered Users Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    I don't know whats sicker. What happened or the sickos on here who enjoyed reading about it.


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    #260
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    profitius wrote: »
    I don't know whats sicker. What happened or the sickos on here who enjoyed reading about it.
    whoa there mr judgy judgerson, where the feck did that come from?

    i don't suppose you'd care to actually add anything constructive to the discussion would you?

    you're probably right though. i did also mention joseph fritzl and me mentioning him is DEFINITELY just as bad as what he did, so i'm going to sentence myself to several life sentances and throw away the key right now. :rolleyes:


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    #261
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    This has to be the most messed up thread on boards seeing as plenty of
    people approve of attempted murder - there's no other way to say it...


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    #262
    sh1tstirrer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭sh1tstirrer


    This happened in Cork many years ago. It was the womans brother that did it to her boyfriend.


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    #263
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    This has to be the most messed up thread on boards seeing as plenty of
    people approve of attempted murder - there's no other way to say it...
    who's approving of attempted murder?:confused:


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    #264
    Demonique
    Registered Users Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭Demonique


    OutlawPete wrote: »
    In this article Danial Radcliffe said he lost his virginity to a "MUCH" older woman when he was just 16 in 2005.

    That was the year he starred in one of the Harry Potter films with Emma Thompson :eek:

    /Sharpens knife

    He's also starred in the movies with Maggie Smith and Julie Walters (whatever would Ron think?)


    Though in reality much older meant early 20s, he was deflowered by his make-up artist, they were together for at least two years after this, don't know if they're still together though


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    #265
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    lol Germany


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    #266
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    but he remains a eunuch for life.
    In ancient China castration was both a traditional punishment (until the Sui Dynasty) and a means of gaining employment in the Imperial service. At the end of the Ming Dynasty there were about 70,000 eunuchs (宦官 huànguān, or 太監 tàijiàn) employed by the emperor, with some serving inside the Imperial palace. Certain eunuchs gained immense power that occasionally superseded that of even the Grand Secretaries. Zheng He from the Ming Dynasty is an example of this. Self-castration was commonplace and half-hearted attempts were sometimes made to make it illegal. The number of eunuchs in Imperial employ had fallen to 470 in 1912, when the practice of using them ceased.I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"]citation needed[/URL][/I
    When the Ming army finally captured Yunnan from Mongols in 1382, thousands of prisoners were killed and, according to the custom in times of war, their young sons – including Zheng He – were castrated.[7][8] During the Miao Rebellions (Ming Dynasty), Chinese commanders castrated thousands of Miao boys when their tribes revolted, and then gave them as slaves to various officials.[8]
    Yaqub Beg's son and grandsons were castrated by the Chinese in 1879 and turned into eunuchs to work in the Imperial Palace.[9]
    It is said that the justification for the employment of eunuchs as high-ranking civil servants was that, since they were incapable of having children, they would not be tempted to seize power and start a dynasty. In many cases, eunuchs were considered more reliable than the scholar officials. A similar system existed in Vietnam.[10]
    The tension between eunuchs in the service of the emperor and virtuous Confucian officials is a familiar theme in Chinese history. In his History of Government, Samuel Finer points out that reality was not always that clear-cut. There were instances of very capable eunuchs, who were valuable advisers to their emperor, and the resistance of the "virtuous" officials often stemmed from jealousy on their part. Ray Huang argues that in reality, eunuchs represented the personal will of the Emperor, while the officials represented the alternate political will of the bureaucracy. The clash between them would thus have been a clash of ideologies or political agenda

    Well at least there's good living being a eunuch.


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