1st Round Draft -Drafting Quarter Backs

Pyjamarama

Ahhh it's the Tim Tebow debate all over again...

I was on the anti tebow side last year, i'm on the anti Newton side this year and i'll be on the anti Prior side next year. I also fully expect to be right on all of them!!

Oh Newton in no way should be compared to Vick. Vick is a physical freak, chris johnson with a good arm (which i say despite my general dislike of the way he plays the qb position). Cam Newton is just another in a line of mobile QB's who won't be able to outrun anyone at the pro level.

I wouldn't give Newton a 2nd round grade let alone a first but he'll go in the mid first round.

neilster

Tom_Brady wrote: »

If the Redskins draft a QB ahead of a wide receiver I'll be absolutely shocked. Donovan McNabb is still a very capable QB, much more reliable than Jake Plummer was in what was his final year in the NFL. There's no way they draft a QB in the first round. Absolutely no way. There are so many bigger needs.

Once again you are giving your view on events without thinking of the individuals involved , presuming that GM Allen and Shanahan will be there for 2 years more

-McNabb has a passer rating at 29th in the league which is not a measure for reliable , Plummer in his final season in Denver had considerably higher rating

-Shanahan has picked a QB in the Draft round 1 and benched a veteran before

-Shanahan and Son have already benched a veteran QB this season ....McNabb citing his fitness issues and prefering that genius Sexy Rexy Grossman

- Shanahan and Son when expected to wrap up a contract extension by mid-season prevaricated and when they did present a contract there was no guaranteed money past late March 2011, no guaranteed money at all

-Unless you think that the Skins plan on moving forward with Grossman everything points to McNabb playing his ball in his (now) off-season home of Phoenix and a quarterback traded for or picked in the draft

Shanahan knows he has to make progress next year either with a project QB or with atrusty veterans but he has to show more wins , McNabb may be a coachkiller at this point

maybe you think i am whistling dixie here but something tells me McNabbs agent doesnt feel the same way about the fact that DanSnyder couldnt make a financial investment long-term in McNabb last month



-

neilster

Tom_Brady wrote: »

Whoa, wait a minute. The only reason I posted up those two throws was because eagle eye said he has never seen him make a bullet pass, which you agreed with. I said he makes those types of throws all the time, and have posted video evidence to back it up. Don't try and weasel your way out of what was a false accusation like you did with your assertion that you didn't think he would be drafted in the first round.

You're right, one good throw does not make a good QB. But that's a bit out there, because you could say that about every QB. We can only go on what we've seen, and having seen every Auburn game since the Clemson win, I can tell you that he makes a hell of a lot more than "one good throw". Comparing him to JaMarcus Russell is ridiculous. The only thing they have in common is height. Russell was nowhere near the athlete Newton is apart from a vastly superior arm strength, but there's not a QB in the NFL that could match up to Russell's arm strength besides at a stretch Jay Cutler. I look at Newton - and I look at him a lot - and I see a warchest of tools that can make him a superstar at the next level. Perfect stature, elite speed and agility, pocket mobility, high accuracy, elite arm strength, bullet throws, excellent sell of the play action, solid mechanics, comes up big in clutch situations, ability to learn and adapt to playbooks quickly, confidence. He's got so much going for him. The only thing he needs to brush up on is his ability to read a defence, but even if he never reaches the Brady/Manning level in that department, it never stopped the likes of Roethlisberger being a huge success with the ability to improvise. It's too easy to say that "Oh wait until he comes up against an NFL calibre pass rush". That's something that whoever drafts on him will work with, and once he adapts (which he has shown he can do), defensive co-ordinators will think twice about pass rushing someone with his mobility.

As for his character issues, it's all very minor. Frankly, with how he has handled himself unter the most intense media scrutiny lately, and not only maintained a high level of performance but actually gotten better as the scrutiny grew, there are more positives than negatives about his character. Cam Newton is a leader and a winner, and one of the most important traits you can ask of a QB, performs when the chips are down.

I agree with Tom on this there is way too much upside on Newton to dismiss him , he is a winner and it may not translate to the NFL but he seems to have a lot of poise and Colt McCoy comes to mind when you look at a confidence level that is needed for the lext level

I would put him way ahead of Clausen and i dont take the whole Tebow argument seriously until he shows he can make all the throws and provide evidence of perfecting the mechanics

As to the character issue i think it is important but the issues raised are at the minor end of the scale , the compensation issue is a hornets nest and certainly hasnt affected Reggie Bushs maturity

Some great players have had issues in college , in the last couple of drafts players were flagged like Percy Harvin, Mike Williams (Tampa) and others ...they were all were incorrect

Peyton Manning

I don't think you're whistling dixie neil, it's a very solid argument and one I would agreement were it not painfully obvious that they have so many bigger needs than Quarterback. A blue chip wide receiver is their main need imo (Jones, Blackmon, Baldwin or Floyd in the order imo) which would give McNabb something to work with. Santana Moss has only had 1 season over 1,000 yards since his debut season in Washington, he's just not a number 1 wideout. Anthony Armstrong has spent the best part of 3 years on practise squads. They even tried Joey Galloway which was a spectacular failure. Maybe this boils down to me having more faith in Shanahan recognising what his priorities are, but I would be absolutely astounded if they took a QB in the first round. It's far more likely that they would hold on to McNabb and take a lower round prospect, maybe even Christian Ponder in round 2 or 3. I don't agree with the Plummer comparison either as it's a very different scenario. Plummer had been with the Broncos for years and was showing a big decline after such a stellar season the year before. Shanahan has brought in McNabb this time, and if that proves to be a failure, his job could very much be on the line. Cutting McNabb in the offseason would be admitting it was a defeat, proving that the Eagles were right (sacrilege in Washington) and heaping even more pressure on himself. Shanahan is far more likely to keep his job if he gives McNabb some tools to work with and works on the defence rather than pin his hopes on a rookie QB in a very tough division. Again, that's just me opinion and you are equally as entitled to yours. I would just be very, very shocked if they take a QB in round 1. I can't see it. But I do respect your argument as you do have a lot of basis for it, and I like how you don't make up stuff out of the blue to back your argument up unlike others here.

neilster

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Bullet arm doesn't not mean just arm strength. Getting away from jsut the Vick comparisons but Newton translates as being a very poor prospect I think. I'd be very surprised if he goes top 15 or even 1st round.

remember that going out if the first round is not failure ...McCoy is an exxample of that

Peyton Manning

neilster wrote: »

remember that going out if the first round is not failure ...McCoy is an exxample of that

I can think of a more prominent, handsome example

irishbucsfan

Cam Newton is a pretty divisive prospect. Some people say he will go as early as whenever the Cards pick, others say his background and lack of NFL-readiness means he isn't considered a first round prospect.

Personally? I don't think he'll go in the first round. Luck, Mallett and Locker are all much better pro prospects. Only team I can see taking him would be Miami, and that could potentially be disastrous. Someone said the Jags, but personally I think they have far bigger holes in their team in positions that are more suited to what their drafting position will more than likely be. If Miami pass on Newton then there's noone with a better record than them that I can see would feel they need to take a risk on him.


Mike Vick was a far better prospect, and even he was rubbish until Reid got his hands on him.

jdivision

I said Cards would trade for Bulger but it got deleted again.

mikemac

Bulger will be on a new team next year, he can compete for a starting job somewhere. Whether he'll achieve it I don't know

His salary is $3.2 millio, one of the highest paid backups in the League

Prefab Sprouter

Tom_Brady wrote: »

I can think of a more prominent, handsome example

Joe Montana????

Prefab Sprouter

Re: Cam Newton, lads this is like trying to compare apples with oranges. Will a College Star make it in the NFL or become a bust? I can remember people swearing blind that if anyone could become a great QB it was Jamarcus Russell. Great College Quarterback, big enough to take the hits in the pro game. How flawed was that assessment? there's too many intangibles. what team will he land with? Will they suit him? Look what happened Tebow. He gets drafted by a coach that wants to work with him and he gets fired. His Security blanket has been ripped away and he doesnt know if he will even get a chance to make it in the NFL now. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find lots and lots of videos showing Tim Couch, Joey Harrington, David Carr and Andre Ware making lots of touchdown passes and showing lots of maturity running College Schemes. What sort of career did these guys have?

Not that I'm knocking Newton, not at all. I hope it works out for him but its way too early to say that he will be successful, just because of some film you saw of passes he made.

Peyton Manning

Prefab Sprouter wrote: »

Re: Cam Newton, lads this is like trying to compare apples with oranges. Will a College Star make it in the NFL or become a bust? I can remember people swearing blind that if anyone could become a great QB it was Jamarcus Russell. Great College Quarterback, big enough to take the hits in the pro game. How flawed was that assessment? there's too many intangibles. what team will he land with? Will they suit him? Look what happened Tebow. He gets drafted by a coach that wants to work with him and he gets fired. His Security blanket has been ripped away and he doesnt know if he will even get a chance to make it in the NFL now. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find lots and lots of videos showing Tim Couch, Joey Harrington, David Carr and Andre Ware making lots of touchdown passes and showing lots of maturity running College Schemes. What sort of career did these guys have?

Not that I'm knocking Newton, not at all. I hope it works out for him but its way too early to say that he will be successful, just because of some film you saw of passes he made.

While I agree with all that, whether Cam Newton would make it or not was not the original argument. I've been quite adamant that I think he will and I have no problem with people who think he won't, but the problem I had was people saying Vick was more pro-ready than Cam Newton is, which simply isn't true no matter what spin you put on it.

eagle eye

Tom_Brady wrote: »

While I agree with all that, whether Cam Newton would make it or not was not the original argument. I've been quite adamant that I think he will and I have no problem with people who think he won't, but the problem I had was people saying Vick was more pro-ready than Cam Newton is, which simply isn't true no matter what spin you put on it.

FFS Vick played under center, he was able to drop back in the pocket comfortably from under center. That alone made him more pro-ready. He is no comparable to Cam Newton at all.

Its one of the big reasons why Andrew Luck is going to be the no.1 pick. He has the tools and he has experience under center.

Lirange

Jake Locker should have entered the draft last year. His team got better but he went in the other direction. I saw him play in a couple of games and he did not impress me.

Newton could go in the first round if there's enough demand for quarterbacks. He's moved up on most mock draft boards. I think he's a gamble. He could be great or he could be a bust.

Silver-Tiger

Lirange wrote: »

Newton could go in the first round if there's enough demand for quarterbacks. He's moved up on most mock draft boards. I think he's a gamble. He could be great or he could be a bust.

Talk about...

Lirange

Why should sitting on the fence always have to be a bad thing? I am sitting there because I honestly don't know. I haven't seen anything from watching him play or from highlights that gives me a good indication of whether he will pan out or not. If I had done then I wouldn't shy from an opinion as I always have. But I also get the impression that many are in the same boat as me and aren't sure, and that includes people that are in the NFL that are paid to know. He's a gamble in my opinion because he's not a "safe" investment in the way QB's like Bradford or Ryan were. But if the gamble pays off then it could make all the difference for a franchise.

He's been hugely successful in college but does he fit the mould for an NFL championship quarterback? Presently, the answer is no. Though that could change at some point ... maybe even this year. Most teams still look for a Brady, Manning, Brees, etc. They remain the prototype. Whilst Cunningham, McNabb, Vick, etc all helped teams win games and get to the playoffs (usually the Eagles it seems) it has yet to translate into a championship. The closest thing to a true dual threat SB winning QB has been Steve Young and he was far from the run threat posed by any of the athletes we've been discussing. It's not that one isn't capable of winning one past, present, or future it's just all about perception. The Titans took Young and he didn't quite deliver though he had flashes of brilliance. Most teams don't just want to win more games they want to strive for a championship. When Tampa Bay and Baltimore won Super Bowls other teams learnt that you can win with defence and QBs that only need to be game managers. It's a fickle business. Perceptions change all the time but they greatly influence the mindsets in those draft war rooms.

neilster

eagle eye wrote: »

FFS Vick played under center, he was able to drop back in the pocket comfortably from under center. That alone made him more pro-ready. He is no comparable to Cam Newton at all.

Its one of the big reasons why Andrew Luck is going to be the no.1 pick. He has the tools and he has experience under center.

QBs in the draft are sucha gamble , if we were redoing the draft now , Bradford and McCoy would go in first round and no-one else

Luck is the most like Bradford and vice-versa he is the real quality in the bunch , as to Newton , i think the problem for the dual-threat guy is they miss games and get injured and thats a huge thing with money and whole future tied up in a franchise QB so there will always be a drawback with them, thats what makes Vick so much more valuable these days as he can stay in pocket and work through his reads and pick his moments

neilster

Tom_Brady wrote: »

I can think of a more prominent, handsome example

haha not even going there .....who is the handsome QB with the model significant other you speak of ...it must be Cutler haha

Pyjamarama

Vick was more NFL ready because he was physically FAR superior to Newton. Newton will not be able to run by NFL linebackers. He's just a good mobile college QB. In the same way Vince Young can't run all over good NFL defenses neither will Newton. Vick was a freak able to make insane plays because he was so much quicker than anyone on the D.

Young is actually a far better comparison for Newton than Vick and tbh Newton isn't even the prospect that Young was coming out of Texas.

eagle eye

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Vick was more NFL ready because he was physically FAR superior to Newton. Newton will not be able to run by NFL linebackers. He's just a good mobile college QB. In the same way Vince Young can't run all over good NFL defenses neither will Newton. Vick was a freak able to make insane plays because he was so much quicker than anyone on the D.

Young is actually a far better comparison for Newton than Vick and tbh Newton isn't even the prospect that Young was coming out of Texas.

I'm not so sure about the last bit. Ok we did see more of Vince Young and he was awesome but Newton has been too in fairness to him but just for one season to date. They are very, very alike. Thing with Vince Young is that he clearly was a great leader and he even showed that in the NFL. He hasn't been awesome at any stage in the NFL but you just have to look at the Titans when he is playing and then when he is not playing over the last two seasons and there is a marked difference. While he isn't the greatest QB on the planet, the team plays well when he plays.

neilster

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm not so sure about the last bit. Ok we did see more of Vince Young and he was awesome but Newton has been too in fairness to him but just for one season to date. They are very, very alike. Thing with Vince Young is that he clearly was a great leader and he even showed that in the NFL. He hasn't been awesome at any stage in the NFL but you just have to look at the Titans when he is playing and then when he is not playing over the last two seasons and there is a marked difference. While he isn't the greatest QB on the planet, the team plays well when he plays.

Like a lot of college QBs this is in lap of the gods, Newtons' athletic talents will mean a bit less in the NFL because of the standard but if Vince young was better on the mental side of the game (and he has talent and the Titans often play very well when he is tehre ) he might move more toward elite status , he is a talented but flawed individual at this point , so there is hope for Newton ...i see him as a 3rd Round/4th round developmental project at this point ...i dont see him as a Josh Freeman level prospect ...ie goes 1st round , beds into NFL nicely , clutch performer , he is a lot more of a rough diamond than that

Peyton Manning

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

Why did they pick Clausen so high up if he was going to be discarded for an even higher QB selection a year later?

Tom_Brady wrote: »

He wasn't really high up though was he? He was expected to be a high end first round draft pick, but he fell to 48th overall. I don't think anyone saw him falling that low in the draft. He's also been pretty terrible and his attitude is horrible (which explains why he fell in the draft).

Just to get back to this, Steve Smith revealed how little respect he (and I suspect others) have for Clausen, who apparently things he's a hell of a lot better than he is. He's supposedly cocky as hell and has adopted a holier-than-thou attitude ever since he became a big shot at Notre Dame.

Apparently Clausen apologised to Panthers linebacker Jon Beason for his poor performance yesterday. When told of it, Smith had the following to say:

http://www.twitvid.com/AKOZ0

Definitely not the response of someone who is fully behind his team's QB. Clausen seems to be very much a rotten apple.

eagle eye

Tom_Brady wrote: »

Just to get back to this, Steve Smith revealed how little respect he (and I suspect others) have for Clausen, who apparently things he's a hell of a lot better than he is. He's supposedly cocky as hell and has adopted a holier-than-thou attitude ever since he became a big shot at Notre Dame.

Apparently Clausen apologised to Panthers linebacker Jon Beason for his poor performance yesterday. When told of it, Smith had the following to say:

http://www.twitvid.com/AKOZ0

Definitely not the response of someone who is fully behind his team's QB. Clausen seems to be very much a rotten apple.

Thing is that Steve Smith has always been a loud mouthed twit. I don't know what the story is with Clausen but he hasn't done much since he went there.
I think you have to be around the right set up though if you are going to succeed. There could well be a problem with his attitude but it should never get to the media.
I'm not sure Carolina is a good place for anybody right now. I mean think about it, would you ever hear a member of the Patriots or Colts come out and say something like this in the media? Not likely because everything is dealt with behind closed doors and players like Steve Smith would never be playing for them. Thats why those teams were top of their division almost every year for the last decade.

neilster

eagle eye wrote: »

48 is still a high pick to spend on somebody though if you are just going to discard him after one year and not even try and develop him.

Much like the Rams and Bradford , of the elite college QBs this year and they are Luck , Newton, Mallet & Locker, Luck stands a little ways ahead of the rest for a lot of the same reasons Bradford has acclimatised so quickly himself. There are questions about the other three but by and large they arent there with Luck so the Panthers even if Clausen was better than a 55 passer rating would have to consider Luck . The fact that Clausen is not helping himself in this final 4 game trial isnt helping and there is no good backup but again most drafters pick the best player left on the board at that particular time and the No1 pick that is Andrew Luck . The issues about Clausen or his attitude with teamates just confirm the pick

ps Steve Smith is perhaps not the best person to talk about team harmony as he as a good solid pro has always punked off with all and sundry

neilster

this was a snap-shot in my opinion a number of weeks ago ...how things change , this will obviously tie in with the Coach crousel when season ends ...i have made alterations in bold for this week ...what you think

"these teams i think need to think seriously about drafting a QB



Bills - This may be a touch harsh but I feel that Gailey likes Fitzy but if Luck is there i think the bills will move....if Luck is there seems unlikely given Carolina travails with Clausen

Dolphins - I would say Henne is definitely on borrowed time.....i should go into opening a sportsbook ...boy do Miami need to start over ....maybe a partially hard done by Orton anyone?

Redskins - Shanahan knows QBs and knows McNabbs play has been dreadful coupled with the fact that DC is a coachkiller and Shanahan needs to correct this .....i thought weeks ago that Shanny may change elsewhere and keep McNabb .....surely not Kolb ...Kolb to another division in Seattle with McNabb to Phoenix, Arizona

Bengals - Palmers salary in 2011 will probably mean he wont return along with the 80% passer rating....Palmer will be gone ...i think this might be the draft Locker maybe

Vikes - If Favre doesnt return and TJack keeps throwing picks a QB will be traded for or picked in draft.....again prophesy here after last night at Ford Field .....Mallett/Locker/Kolb

Titans - If Fisher survives and thats a big if when the owner loves VYoung , team keeps losing and Fisher is in last year of contract coming into a labour dispute but if Fisher survives MusicCity will need a QB.....Fisher to Carolina anyone ...think its Cowher/Garrett in Dallas ...definitely i think Bud Adams will ask everyone to co-exist and i dont think Fisher will so Vince Young back in 2011 and Fisher out

Raiders - This may be an outside shot but Davis likes Campbell but Campbell isnt good enough, Gradkowski is tough limited and clutch and Cable loves him , Davis less so , Gradkowski cant stay on the field , a franchise QB is needed ...There is power struggle going on with Cable/Davis/Hue jackson...whoever can nose out what happens there is a fair man!!!....Campbell back i feel , his last game was very strong 350 yds passing, its not a great case i know but....i think Cable might be gone which might be unfair with Hue Jackson promoted

Panthers - Probably the No 1 pick , Jerry Richardson (owner) and Matt Hurney (GM) ultimatley will not let Andrew Luck pass them by ...i think people have remembered the Rams in 2009 .....same view as before only times 2 ...Clausen has been introduced real early but so has McCoy , thats says it all


49ers - If Singletary is fired and Jim Harbaugh at Stanford is hired what are chances Stanfords QB gets drafted or trade up for Luck ...i think Panthers take Luck that even with Clausen , you cant pass on players who will ultimately rescue a franchise ...im thinking manning with the colts in 98.....A Smith is a competent backup but i think Singletary or a new coach will both look at a draft pick

Cardinals - Whizzy needs to get a reliable QB , take a look at Skelton till season end and then draft highly or trade ...he has now seen enough of Skelton and Hall , and needs a reliable QB

when you look through this list there are a host of teams with only 4 good QBs , teams with high draft picks (im thinking the Bills) may get a host of picks for trading down

jdivision

My fear with Newton is the body of work. He's been great this season but if defensive coordinators had a full off-season to game plan for him at that level... would he be as good. Probably not.

Syferus

neilster wrote: »

49ers - If Singletary is fired and Jim Harbaugh at Stanford is hired what are chances Stanfords QB gets drafted or trade up for Luck ...i think Panthers take Luck that even with Clausen , you cant pass on players who will ultimately rescue a franchise ...im thinking manning with the colts in 98.....A Smith is a competent backup but i think Singletary or a new coach will both look at a draft pick

I'd imagine that barring one hell of a play-off run the Smith the 49ers will keep in any role next year will be Troy Smith, he's certainly earned the right to be at least a back-up after putting in some good performances this year and he'll be way cheaper on the 49ers' pockets than Alex Smith.

neilster

Syferus wrote: »

I'd imagine that barring one hell of a play-off run the Smith the 49ers will keep in any role next year will be Troy Smith, he's certainly earned the right to be at least a back-up after putting in some good performances this year and he'll be way cheaper on the 49ers' pockets than Alex Smith.

Troy Smith is at the 49ers at back-up money so makes sense that he will stay just due to the financial imperative , much like Carson Palmer or a Leinart ....Alex Smith is on a juicy contract and will have to be extended or they will look at cutting him , Troy Smith outperformed him when Frank Gore was around to pound and ground , but the minute he was injured TSmiths accuracy problems made it harder to win in a more pass-happy offence so this pretty much says Singletary hasnt total faith in either as he showed with going with Alex in th elast match ...so Smith stays as QB2 , Alex is dropped and hello a trade/the draft

If Singletary is replaced all the new options become even likelier

Dohnny Jepp

neilster wrote: »

Troy Smith is at the 49ers at back-up money so makes sense that he will stay just due to the financial imperative , much like Carson Palmer or a Leinart ....Alex Smith is on a juicy contract and will have to be extended or they will look at cutting him , Troy Smith outperformed him when Frank Gore was around to pound and ground , but the minute he was injured TSmiths accuracy problems made it harder to win in a more pass-happy offence so this pretty much says Singletary hasnt total faith in either as he showed with going with Alex in th elast match ...so Smith stays as QB2 , Alex is dropped and hello a trade/the draft

If Singletary is replaced all the new options become even likelier

Didn't alex smith restructure his contract two seasons ago? Like 70% less then his initial contract.

frostie500

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

Didn't alex smith restructure his contract two seasons ago? Like 70% less then his initial contract.

Sure did, in a rare move he said that he had no right to be on the money he was due to be paid and changed his deal to a much more incentive based deal.