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Wingtsun / Wingchun Dublin: basic concepts basic exercices
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I found a video of two high ranked Wing Chun guys fighting - Emin Boztepe vs William Cheung.
Could you break the Wing Chung actions down for me? It looks like Boztepe does a ko-soto-gari followed up by kesa-gatame, but those are judo moves...0 -
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Doug Cartel wrote: »I found a video of two high ranked Wing Chun guys fighting - Emin Boztepe vs William Cheung.
Could you break the Wing Chung actions down for me? It looks like Boztepe does a ko-soto-gari followed up by kesa-gatame, but those are judo moves...
That should really read 2 self appointed high grades in wing chun, they were a disgrace, neither of them could fight...0 -
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Dont know much about Wing Chun, but in Tai Chi Chuan the techniques came first, the form was created to "store" the arsenal of techniques gathered down through the years, and the techniques places side by side appropiately to highlight recovery techniques and counters to proceeding, or the next technique.
So the form is practiced with different aims to fighting, it doesn't look like fighting, no matter how expert the master, a real tai chi fighter will not be moving in slow-motion during a fight!
there are signature techniques certainly... seven star guard, gyrating arms, five element fist, but these will just seem like unorthodox striking, locking or wrestling methods to those unfamiliar. Many here who have seen the clips of us, or been to the sanshou events, would probably recognise the difference of Wudang Seven Star Guard for example. Of course we all have seven stars.... head, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees, and feet... really strikes will look close enough in each style, likewise throws etc.. Tactics may vary slightly, or the leverage points, and that is what "style" really means, a signature way of doing things that is kinda noticable. it doesn't mean taking a training drill etc. and forcing it to work exactly as it is in a fighting situation!
The Tai Chi calssics state..." we practice technique to acquire principle, once we have principle we can abandon technique"
surely Wing Chun is the same? is there an example of a Wing Tsun signature technique out there? that would settle the whole issue?0 -
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Niall Keane wrote: »Dont know much about Wing Chun, but in Tai Chi Chuan the techniques came first, the form was created to "store" the arsenal of techniques gathered down through the years, and the techniques places side by side appropiately to highlight recovery techniques and counters to proceeding, or the next technique.
So the form is practiced with different aims to fighting, it doesn't look like fighting, no matter how expert the master, a real tai chi fighter will not be moving in slow-motion during a fight!
there are signature techniques certainly... seven star guard, gyrating arms, five element fist, but these will just seem like unorthodox striking, locking or wrestling methods to those unfamiliar. Many here who have seen the clips of us, or been to the sanshou events, would probably recognise the difference of Wudang Seven Star Guard for example. Of course we all have seven stars.... head, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees, and feet... really strikes will look close enough in each style, likewise throws etc.. Tactics may vary slightly, or the leverage points, and that is what "style" really means, a signature way of doing things that is kinda noticable. it doesn't mean taking a training drill etc. and forcing it to work exactly as it is in a fighting situation!
The Tai Chi calssics state..." we practice technique to acquire principle, once we have principle we can abandon technique"
surely Wing Chun is the same? is there an example of a Wing Tsun signature technique out there? that would settle the whole issue?
I agree, but one thing i have noticed over the years is that people that try to fight completly like the forms ,have no real understanding of the principles and strategies and they over compenstate by following the forms to the letter, and as you have already said, FORM IS PRACTICED WITH DIFFERENT AIMS TO FIGHTING.
You asked is there an example of a Wing Chun signature technique out there? that would settle the whole issue? michaels response was THAT WING CHUN IS RECOGNISABLE BY ITS PUNCHES,STRIKES,FOOTWORK, i agree with michael that they are SOME of the RECOGNISABLE moves but i dont think that was the question that you asked.What you asked was IS THERE A EXAMPLE OF A WING CHUN SIGNATURE MOVE OUT THERE? THAT WOULD SETTLE THE HOLE ISSUE? some people would say what Mchael said , others would say the virtical punch or maybe some other techiquines, i think there all wrong because in my opinion Wing Chun doesn't have a signature technique or move, the signature of Wing Chun is its PRINCIPLES, Anybody can learn the forms of Wing Chun off u-tube, but what they cant learn is the principles(STRUCTURE-BALANCE -MOVEMENT) some can be taught-some have to be learned and there is a difference,Strategies are something different again, Most people confuse sayings with principles, there are hundreds of Wing Chun sayings out there, some even call them Wing Chun poetry, ("WHEN THE WAY IS FREE, GO FORWARD") But they are not the principles of Wing Chun...
Tony0 -
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Hi Tony,
I suppose what we are disagreeing about is whether the competition fighting in your video clips is Wing Tsun/Chun. In order determine this, we need to define what Wing Tsun/Chun is. In order to define something we need to show its boundaries. If there are no boundaries and the term Wing Tsun/Chun could mean anything, then the term actually means nothing.
Your definition of Wing Tsun/Chun is balance/structure and movement. I feel this is a little bit too ambiguous, subjective and open to interpretation.
My definition of Wing Tsun/Chun is defined by the movements in the forms and also by the principles that state how these movements are used. These principles are not random sayings that contradict each other. In an age when few people could read or write, they were mottos that typically rhymed so that people could remember them and they dictated how Wing Tsun/Chun should be used. The most important ones are as follows in order of importance.- When the way is free, go forward
- Stick when the way is obstructed
- Give way when you meet greater force
- Thrust forward when the limb is free
Good for you!just in case you are wondoring,some thing that you may not realise is that i am the most senior Wing Chun person in this country that is still teaching Wing Chun, i think that its great that you have been training in Wing Chun for 17 years, i have been training in Wing Chun for 30 years, the most senior grade in Ireland in your organisation is actually in Wing Chun terms my junior nephew,His first instructor was my training partner and he only joined the Dublin Wing Chun club after i left and went a different way.most of the senior people in this country that teach Wing Chun are either my junior nephew or in some cases 2 or 3 generations beyond that, i am also the only person in this country of any nationality that is licenced and approved to teach chinese martial arts specifically WING CHUN bye the goverment of the republic of China,.
One of my students who is 7th student grade, training to be an assistant instructor and in his 50s, trained Wing Chun in Church St about 30 years ago so he is probably both our seniors.
Regards,
Michael0 -
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Michael O Leary wrote: »Hi Tony,
I suppose what we are disagreeing about is whether the competition fighting in your video clips is Wing Tsun/Chun. In order determine this, we need to define what Wing Tsun/Chun is. In order to define something we need to show its boundaries. If there are no boundaries and the term Wing Tsun/Chun could mean anything, then the term actually means nothing.
Your definition of Wing Tsun/Chun is balance/structure and movement. I feel this is a little bit too ambiguous, subjective and open to interpretation.
My definition of Wing Tsun/Chun is defined by the movements in the forms and also by the principles that state how these movements are used. These principles are not random sayings that contradict each other. In an age when few people could read or write, they were mottos that typically rhymed so that people could remember them and they dictated how Wing Tsun/Chun should be used. The most important ones are as follows in order of importance.- When the way is free, go forward
- Stick when the way is obstructed
- Give way when you meet greater force
- Thrust forward when the limb is free
Good for you!
One of my students who is 7th student grade, training to be an assistant instructor and in his 50s, trained Wing Chun in Church St about 30 years ago so he is probably both our seniors.
Regards,
Michael
Michael,I understand that i will never convince you on the subject of wing chun principles, so im not going to try,if your happy with what your doing, keep doing it, but always remember Wing Chun history is full of famous names like Dr Leung Jan-Chan Wah-Shun-Yuan Kay-Shan, these people were not famous for how good there forms were or how good there chi sau was, they were famous for one thing, winning challenge matches (FIGHTING)...
But im afraid your wrong again about your 7th student grade being my senior,he's yours ,not mine (not that it really matters anyway). the church street club was much later, around 84, (the club was originally started bye a complete fake that only took one lesson in Wing Chun before he opened church street,he was even grading students,When leo found out about it,he approached him and ended up taking it over, the guy then left and no one ever say him again) The original wing chun club( AND THERE WAS ONLY ONE IN IRELAND) was run by two instructors from two different branches and was in the TKD center in exchecquer street, around 78-80,roughly, before it was the TKD center, it then over the
following few years moved to various halls around dublin (just off stephens
green-capel steet-cuff street-richmond road) and ended up in litten lane dance studio just off the quays, it then moved to church street and then back to litten lane, leo then gave up teaching and John ended up teaching , but i wasn't really involved with the club at that stage, The club at that stage was more of a beginners club, so a few of the senior guys used to meet up to train together,About 86-87 john started teaching in a old mill around Phibsboro and a boxing club in crumlin somewhere, those two places are where most of the modern day Wing Chun/Tsun instructors started there training... (THOSE DATES ARE ROUGHLY,IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME)
Tony...0 -
My relatively uninformed opinion on all of this is that
A) Wing Chun usually looks messy when it's being sparred at high speed. But that's fine.
We do forms and learn techniques, but are encouraged to make them our own, and to apply them in our own way. We would feint and draw the opponent in at times. Though we are told the ideal is to keep moving forward. 0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk
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