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Wingtsun / Wingchun Dublin: basic concepts basic exercices
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Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »Do you practice in Dublin? if yes what 's the school?
Even if restrictive ( no locks, no punch in throat or spinal column, no elbows/knees in the face, no kicks in the articulations ), I believe sparrings can be very usefull and there is a lot to learn from it: I will hit and get hit ( so I know how it feels on a emotional and pshychological level), miss few opportunities, will see what connections in my body are weak, apply my basics etc... . I think it is also good on a psychological level to build confidence and destroy the ego as a beginner can surprise an advanced practicioner with some tricks or his aggressivity.
Do you sparr yourself or in your school?
Bye,
Massimo
I live and train in Meath now, THE ROYAL COMBAT CLUB...
www.sanshou.ie
Im glad to hear that you spar, not enough Wing Chun clubs do, we spar at least half of every class, sure its fun...0 -
i know Michael's EWTO and some other branches dont enter compeitions or spar..I practice WING CHUN...
Hi Anthony,
We don't really enter competitions however I did enter a competition in 1995. It was a full contact Sanshou rules competition run by Niall Keane's organisation. Paul Mitchell and Pamela euborg (SP?) were the referees. I was fighting one of Dave Joyce's guys who was in a Muay Thai demo earlier in the day. His name was Eoghan and he did both Kung-Fu and Muay Thai with Dave. I wasn't very good at WT having only been doing it for about two years and Dave Joyce told me that Eoghan wasn't very experienced either. Anyway I won my fight decisively however I should mention that two of Dave's guys beat two of our guys. I made sure I used the Wing Tsun principles by staying close to my opponent while hitting him.
I don't like to use the word "sparring" as different people have different ideas of what sparring is. EG: Light, semi, full contact, points based, sparring with sticks, strikes, grappling, etc. I prefer to use the term "pressure test". We pressure test our Wing Tsun in the conditions that it was designed for. So for example we are less likely to have someone apply a Kimura on us but more likely for someone to throw a punch, swing a baseball bat in our face and therefore we pressure test the latter.
So students partner off, one group are the attackers and they don't do Wing Tsun as the role of the exercise is not WT against WT. The attackers put on gloves and try to hit their opponent and the opponent trains to defend using Wing Tsun. Sometimes the attackers makes a committed attack, sometimes they feint, sometimes they enter into a clinch. Sometimes we do free chi-sau and sometimes we put the free chi-sau into the exercise.
I try to get students doing this from night one and the level of intensity depends on the experience of the student. Students should get hit about 3 out of every 10 times. If they never get hit then the pace is too slow. If they are getting hit 10 out of 10 times then they get frustrated and don't learn anything. We try and keep it at a level where they are challanged but not overwhelmed.
Regards,
Michael0 -
Presumably doing pressure drills where the attacker doesn't "do" WC is fine for learning to defend against an untrained attacker, but the benefit of sparring is in learning to fight someone who's competent in martial arts.
We spar (hard contact, but with "full head" helmet, shinpads,torso guard, abdo/groin guard) and i think it's useful. Though I enjoy pressure training, and it has it's place, sparring is sustainable for longer periods of time, so there should be more neural pathway action going on for future recall of techniques, and it's good for seeing the holes in the type of attacks I'm doing myself.
I also do krav, where the focus is on fighting untrained opponents under a lot of pressure. But this is a different skill set to fighting a trained fighter, IMHO.
In saying that, i'm doing Victor Kan WC less than a year, so I'm no expert.0 -
tallaght01 wrote: »Presumably doing pressure drills where the attacker doesn't "do" WC is fine for learning to defend against an untrained attacker
Hehe actually I was wondering this myself, "they don't do WT" is a landmine of a sentence for those who believe that realistic competitive sparring is a must for development as a fighter.
Im sure its not the case but I straight away get images tenitive smiles and then slow motion flailed punches that are never intended to land.0 -
hi, were do you do the Victor Kan WC?tallaght01 wrote: »Presumably doing pressure drills where the attacker doesn't "do" WC is fine for learning to defend against an untrained attacker, but the benefit of sparring is in learning to fight someone who's competent in martial arts.
We spar (hard contact, but with "full head" helmet, shinpads,torso guard, abdo/groin guard) and i think it's useful. Though I enjoy pressure training, and it has it's place, sparring is sustainable for longer periods of time, so there should be more neural pathway action going on for future recall of techniques, and it's good for seeing the holes in the type of attacks I'm doing myself.
I also do krav, where the focus is on fighting untrained opponents under a lot of pressure. But this is a different skill set to fighting a trained fighter, IMHO.
In saying that, i'm doing Victor Kan WC less than a year, so I'm no expert.0 -
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I live and train in Meath now, THE ROYAL COMBAT CLUB...
www.sanshou.ie
Im glad to hear that you spar, not enough Wing Chun clubs do, we spar at least half of every class, sure its fun...
HI,
it's a bit far to go there from here; maybe one day..
If you ever pass by Dublin and have time , would be cool if you'd stop by our classe and share a bit of your stuff.
Bye0 -
tallaght01 wrote: »Presumably doing pressure drills where the attacker doesn't "do" WC is fine for learning to defend against an untrained attacker, but the benefit of sparring is in learning to fight someone who's competent in martial arts.
Hi Tallaght,
I disagree that pressure testing against someone who doesn't do Wing Tsun means they are untrained. Even if it was the case, an untrained attacker can still be dangerous. However it just means there is a risk that if Wing Tsun/Chun trains against Wing Tsun/Chun there is a risk we won't know what to do if someone applies a round attack for example.
I also did mention that we sometimes do free chi-sau which could be described as Wing Tsun/Chun vs Wing Tsun/Chun. And then sometimes we blend the pressure testing so that an opponent might engage with a jab, roundkick, we would defend using Wing Tsun however rather than it stopping there, the opponent will get closer and that is when the chi-sau reactions will kick in.
Regards,
Michael0 -
hi, were do you do the Victor Kan WC?
I train in Queensland, Australia. sadly, there's no Victor kan club in Ireland. Closest are the clubs in England.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Victor-Kan-Ving-Tsun-Wing-Chun-Brisbane/156081211091081
http://www.vingtsunvk.com.au/
http://www.vingtsunvk.com/Michael O Leary wrote: »Hi Tallaght,
I disagree that pressure testing against someone who doesn't do Wing Tsun means they are untrained. Even if it was the case, an untrained attacker can still be dangerous. However it just means there is a risk that if Wing Tsun/Chun trains against Wing Tsun/Chun there is a risk we won't know what to do if someone applies a round attack for example.
I also did mention that we sometimes do free chi-sau which could be described as Wing Tsun/Chun vs Wing Tsun/Chun. And then sometimes we blend the pressure testing so that an opponent might engage with a jab, roundkick, we would defend using Wing Tsun however rather than it stopping there, the opponent will get closer and that is when the chi-sau reactions will kick in.
Regards,
Michael
I agree that pressure drills have their uses. But sparring against people using the same skills that you're supposed to have is a central part to virtually all martial arts, because your skill against your peers is a way of measuring your own abilities, and because it helps us to learn what works from the receiving end. I've just felt that sparring offered something that pressure drilling doesn't, though it's hard to put a finger on it.
I've never known a martial art where sparring isn't used, but I'm no expert. I know you do chi sao, but that's a different, specific skillset (albeit with significant crossover).
On another note, are you guys aware that a new magazine dedicated to Wing Chun is coming out in the new year. First of its kind, I believe. here's their facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/wingchunillustrated0 -
Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »HI,
it's a bit far to go there from here; maybe one day..
If you ever pass by Dublin and have time , would be cool if you'd stop by our classe and share a bit of your stuff.
Bye
I will arrange something in the new year...0 -
tallaght01 wrote: »I train in Queensland, Australia. sadly, there's no Victor kan club in Ireland. Closest are the clubs in England.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Victor-Kan-Ving-Tsun-Wing-Chun-Brisbane/156081211091081
http://www.vingtsunvk.com.au/
http://www.vingtsunvk.com/
I agree that pressure drills have their uses. But sparring against people using the same skills that you're supposed to have is a central part to virtually all martial arts, because your skill against your peers is a way of measuring your own abilities, and because it helps us to learn what works from the receiving end. I've just felt that sparring offered something that pressure drilling doesn't, though it's hard to put a finger on it.
I've never known a martial art where sparring isn't used, but I'm no expert. I know you do chi sao, but that's a different, specific skillset (albeit with significant crossover).
On another note, are you guys aware that a new magazine dedicated to Wing Chun is coming out in the new year. First of its kind, I believe. here's their facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/wingchunillustrated
i didn't know you were from austrailia, the best of luck with your training, i agree that sparring is a important part of training that chi sao does not cover, to many WING CHUN clubs have replaced sparring with chi sao...0 -
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i didn't know you were from austrailia, the best of luck with your training, i agree that sparring is a important part of training that chi sao does not cover, to many WING CHUN clubs have replaced sparring with chi sao...
I'm not from Australia. I'm from Tallaght. But I work in Oz.
My job will always involve a lot of overseas work, but I'm going to try and base myself in Dublin/Wicklow in about 18 months, and I don't know where I'l train. I love WC and don't want to give it up. But most of the schools in Dublin are Leung Ting lineage, and my poor old Sifu would have a seizure if I trained there.
http://www.vingtsunvk.com/
Look under news>VT world news. I have no issue with Leung Ting, but I'd hate to annoy my sifu, as I feel a lot of loyalty to the club, as they really go that extra mile in training us. I know they feel quite offended at Leung Ting's claims at being a Yip Man student, and feel he has discredited WC. It's a way of life for Victor, and I feel a sense of duty to progress to a club they'd approve of, as gay as that sounds. Especially as I'd like to go to London a few times a year to train with Victor when I'm based in Ireland.
So, if anyone knows a good WC in Dublin/Arklow/Greystones that's not Leung Ting then I'd love to know about it. I mean no offense to Leung Ting WC practitioners. I'm just trying to ruffle as few feathers as possible.0 -
tallaght01, would it be possible to attend a Leung Ting club and just keep it quiet?0
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tallaght01 wrote: »I'm not from Australia. I'm from Tallaght. But I work in Oz.
My job will always involve a lot of overseas work, but I'm going to try and base myself in Dublin/Wicklow in about 18 months, and I don't know where I'l train. I love WC and don't want to give it up. But most of the schools in Dublin are Leung Ting lineage, and my poor old Sifu would have a seizure if I trained there.
http://www.vingtsunvk.com/
Look under news>VT world news. I have no issue with Leung Ting, but I'd hate to annoy my sifu, as I feel a lot of loyalty to the club, as they really go that extra mile in training us. I know they feel quite offended at Leung Ting's claims at being a Yip Man student, and feel he has discredited WC. It's a way of life for Victor, and I feel a sense of duty to progress to a club they'd approve of, as gay as that sounds. Especially as I'd like to go to London a few times a year to train with Victor when I'm based in Ireland.
So, if anyone knows a good WC in Dublin/Arklow/Greystones that's not Leung Ting then I'd love to know about it. I mean no offense to Leung Ting WC practitioners. I'm just trying to ruffle as few feathers as possible.
I understand were you are comeing from, the photo shop thing was funny, most Wing Chun clubs in Ireland are leung ting linage but not all, but remember london is only 50 minutes on a plane . you can get real cheap flights with ryanair, i paid 22euros return last month. in europe there are a lot of Wing Chun competitions- sanda and chi sao, but in Ireland Wing Chun clubs dont enter competitions, i have tried to get them involved but they have all either said NO or just ignored my emails and texts ...0 -
I believe there's an EBMAS club in Finglas.
Why so much bull about who taught who in China decades ago? Is the important thing the lineage of the club or how well you train and how much you learn?
I've trained under numerous people in Shotokan. Some were brilliant, some less so. None of them failed to teach me something and improve my karate. I couldn't tell you who any of their instructor's instructor's instructor was.0 -
i have tried to get them involved but they have all either said NO or just ignored my emails and texts ...
Have you tried this?
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/1092170 -
Craptacular wrote: »I believe there's an EBMAS club in Finglas.
Why so much bull about who taught who in China decades ago? Is the important thing the lineage of the club or how well you train and how much you learn?
I've trained under numerous people in Shotokan. Some were brilliant, some less so. None of them failed to teach me something and improve my karate. I couldn't tell you who any of their instructor's instructor's instructor was.
I'm not making any judgement whatsoever about the quality of WC thought by any one. The Leung Ting stuff could be 10 times better than what I'm learning. That's not my point at all.
The point is that I go to a Victor Kan school, and he was Ip Man's assistant instructor when he got older. They were pretty tight, and Victor teaches exactly as he was taught. WC guys get pretty obsessive about this. Leung Ting apparently used to tell people he learned the art straight from Ip Man, and then confessed that he didn't. So, even though they're both WC, they teach some different things. I don't really care about that to be honest.
But that wouldn't stop me. The barrier for me is that the Victor Kan school has been teaching me something I love, and he puts his whole life into teaching. He's been personally very offended about what he regards as someone else discrediting WC and his late Sifu. I' like to fly to England and keep training in his schools, but I'd feel like I'm betraying the school if I went to a Leung Ting school.
To you and me it seems a bit daft. But when you've literally devoted your life to something, I guess these things become very raw.
I think with shotokan you learn the same stuff in all the schools and the syllabus is the same etc. That's not the same in WC, where the belt system and syllabus are often quite different.
I really genuinely don't want to offend any of the WC guys with what I've said. This is just me trying to be loyal to my teacher, as opposed to making any judgement on other clubs, as I'm in no position to do that.
I think I'll be taking oldman's advice and travelling to London quite a bit to train. Though I'm not all that pushed about competition. Though my bird often competes around Europe in TKD and swears once I get into it there's no goin back :P
What's EBMAS, btw?0 -
Craptacular wrote: »I believe there's an EBMAS club in Finglas.
Why so much bull about who taught who in China decades ago? Is the important thing the lineage of the club or how well you train and how much you learn?
I've trained under numerous people in Shotokan. Some were brilliant, some less so. None of them failed to teach me something and improve my karate. I couldn't tell you who any of their instructor's instructor's instructor was.
lineages or branches of WING CHUN don't really matter as all branches teach 95% the same stuff as in forms and techiquines, the problem is that certain lineages are run by people that have grades that they gave themselves and have lied to there are students,some have even gone as far as to do a bit with pictures and photo shop, in the YIP MAN lineage: Yip Man never gave out any grades or certs, ever, but as soon as he died there was at least 10 grandmasters claiming that Yip Man said they were to take over, the funny thing was that Yip Man wasn't the grandmaster of WING CHUN and never claimed he was, its his students that claimed he was, there never was a grandmaster in WING CHUN, but now there are at least 3 in the UK,1 in northern Ireland, another 5 or so in europe, at least 10 in Hong Hong and i lost count of the number in the states, if a guy turned up in Ireland and claimed he was a 10th degree black belt in shotokan or bjj, but really he was a 1st degree or never graded and never fought in any competitions ,what would you think?...0 -
EBMAS is another branch down from leung ting0
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in Ireland Wing Chun clubs dont enter competitions, i have tried to get them involved but they have all either said NO or just ignored my emails and texts ...
Hi Anthony,
I am not sure if I was included in this. The reason I don't enter competitions is that I am just not interested. As I mentioned previously, I did enter a Sanshou competition, did well and won my fight but was just not interested in taking it further as I didn't really see it as benefitting my Wing Tsun. I see competition and self-defence as two seperate things. I have a finite amount of time and the more time I would spend preparing for competitions, the less time I would spend training Wing Tsun for what it was designed for.
I could write more but I would only be repeating what I have written on boards.ie over the past six years.
Regards,
Michael0 -
tallaght01 wrote: »most of the schools in Dublin are Leung Ting lineage, and my poor old Sifu would have a seizure if I trained there.
http://www.vingtsunvk.com/
Look under news>VT world news. I have no issue with Leung Ting, but I'd hate to annoy my sifu, as I feel a lot of loyalty to the club, as they really go that extra mile in training us. I know they feel quite offended at Leung Ting's claims at being a Yip Man student, and feel he has discredited WC. It's a way of life for Victor, and I feel a sense of duty to progress to a club they'd approve of, as gay as that sounds. Especially as I'd like to go to London a few times a year to train with Victor when I'm based in Ireland.
So, if anyone knows a good WC in Dublin/Arklow/Greystones that's not Leung Ting then I'd love to know about it.
Hi Tallaght01,
I am glad you are enjoying training Ving Tsun with Victor Kan's organisation in Oz. I also think its great that you feel a lot of loyalty to your club. If I had any advice from my 17 years in Wing Tsun, it would be to take what people say with a pince of salt. Martial Arts and Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun is rife with politics. The "news" that you refer to above is only Victor Kan's opinion. He also describes himself as "The true inheritor of Yip Man's Traditional Ving Tsun "Wing Chun" - the World's Highest Authority. He also states that his school is the only school that teaches classical "Traditional" Ving Tsun IN THE WORLD.
http://www.vingtsunvk.com/
As with every story there are two sides to the Leung Ting story. I would encourage you to think in a bit more of a critical manner. It won't conflict with you being a loyal student.
Compared to other martial arts, what you and I do is very similar with only minor differences. I am also sure that your Sifu (Mark Lamkin?) is a good guy and does go the extra mile in training you. Here in the IEWTO we also go the extra mile in training students and it would be sad if after a year of training with your Sifu in Oz, he would have a problem with you training with us just because the head of his organisation has a problem with the head of our organisation.
Anyway there are three Leung Ting Wing Tsun schools in Dublin.
Blanchardstown - www.wingtsun-blanchardstown.ie
Finglas - www.wingtsunireland.com/dublin-finglas-school/
Dublin City Centre - www.wingtsunireland.com/dublin-city-center-school/
If you feel that you can't train with us then there are two schools that teach in Dublin who teach Leung Ting Wing Tsun but who are part of independant organisations.
Finglas, Dalkey, Dublin City Centre - www.kungfudublin.com
Dublin City Centre - www.wingtsun.webs.com
If you feel that you can't train with them then as far as I know there are two groups teaching Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun. However they teach in secret and don't even know the other group exists.
This guy has students in Dublin. http://www.raiswift.com/
This other guy is apparently teaching. boubekeur@hotmail.com
Or for something a little closer to home - www.wingtsun-brisbane.com/
Regards,
Michael0 -
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Michael O Leary wrote: »Hi Anthony,
I am not sure if I was included in this. The reason I don't enter competitions is that I am just not interested. As I mentioned previously, I did enter a Sanshou competition, did well and won my fight but was just not interested in taking it further as I didn't really see it as benefitting my Wing Tsun. I see competition and self-defence as two seperate things. I have a finite amount of time and the more time I would spend preparing for competitions, the less time I would spend training Wing Tsun for what it was designed for.
I could write more but I would only be repeating what I have written on boards.ie over the past six years.
Regards,
Michael
Michael its not personel , it you dont want your students to spar or enter competitions thats your right, you believe that is the way to go and i respect that, but i think your wrong, i believe sparring is a good thing, it teaches you about structure,balance and movement, i also think that competitions are a good thing as it enables people to pressure test what they are doing against different people and styles,its like mental training,a lot of Wing Chun people say that Wing chun techiquines are to dangerous for competitions, but you could say that about any systeam. the one thing that i really hate hearing is that WING CHUN is a self-defence systeam,the term self-defence is a relatively modern term, WING CHUN is a close quater fighting systeam...0 -
Michael its not personel , it you dont want your students to spar or enter competitions thats your right, you believe that is the way to go and i respect that, but i think your wrong, i believe sparring is a good thing, it teaches you about structure,balance and movement, i also think that competitions are a good thing as it enables people to pressure test what they are doing against different people and styles,its like mental training,a lot of Wing Chun people say that Wing chun techiquines are to dangerous for competitions, but you could say that about any systeam. the one thing that i really hate hearing is that WING CHUN is a self-defence systeam,the term self-defence is a relatively modern term, WING CHUN is a close quater fighting systeam...
Hi Anthony,
My students can do whatever the hell they want.
I am not interested in competitions but if they are then they can enter. I won't specifically train them for competitions as I have no interest but for students who are interested, they can go and do go to different schools to train for and enter competitions.
We will have to agree to disagree on the merits of competitions.
Self-Defence/Close quarter fighting systems? I am not going to get into semantics. I use the term to distinguish what we do as opposed to competitions.
Regards,
Michael0 -
I've seen this head swap story before and I've seen reports of people denying people were taught by Yip Man and I've seen denials of the head swap along with other photos showing the people in question together and I've seen other Sifus come out and confirm that certain people were taught by Yip Man. I have also heard of people setting themselves up as Shotokan instructors without having a 1st Dan. These people are generally found out and usually are not the heads of huge worldwide organisations.lineages or branches of WING CHUN don't really matter as all branches teach 95% the same stuff as in forms and techiquines, the problem is that certain lineages are run by people that have grades that they gave themselves and have lied to there are students,some have even gone as far as to do a bit with pictures and photo shop.
Was Leung Ting trained by Yip Man? Depends who you talk to. Is the Wing Chun taught by his organisation any better or worse than that taught by other organisations? That, to me, would be what matters. If what his organisation teaches is 95% the same as other Wing Chun organisations and if it works then lineage is pretty meaningless. God knows there will be differences in what two instructors in the same organisation teach.0 -
Craptacular wrote: »I've seen this head swap story before and I've seen reports of people denying people were taught by Yip Man and I've seen denials of the head swap along with other photos showing the people in question together and I've seen other Sifus come out and confirm that certain people were taught by Yip Man. I have also heard of people setting themselves up as Shotokan instructors without having a 1st Dan. These people are generally found out and usually are not the heads of huge worldwide organisations.
Was Leung Ting trained by Yip Man? Depends who you talk to. Is the Wing Chun taught by his organisation any better or worse than that taught by other organisations? That, to me, would be what matters. If what his organisation teaches is 95% the same as other Wing Chun organisations and if it works then lineage is pretty meaningless. God knows there will be differences in what two instructors in the same organisation teach.
Hi Craptacular,
I don't know for sure if Leung Ting was taught by Yip Man. I was not in Hong Kong in the 1960s so I only have the same access to information (books, internet) as anyone else. Also this issue has been debated a 1000 times on the internet so I don't have any great urge to revisit it.
People should also try to get away from the idea of one true way of Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun. Yip Man's two sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching each teach in considerably different ways. There is also a significent difference in the way Yip Man taught Lun Kai and others in Fatshan before he went to Hong Kong and started to teach there.
Leung Ting states that he originally learned from Leung Sheung for about six years and then was taught privately by Yip Man for between six and nine months. He also had a good relationship with Yip Man and they would meet on a regular basis for tea and discuss Wing Tsun for about two years. When Yip Man died, Leung Ting travelled to Fatshan to visit Lun Kai, Kwok Fu and others to learn what Yip Man was teaching in his earlier years. Leung Ting then incorporated this into what he learned from Leung Sheung and Yip Man and this is the basis for his Wing Tsun.
Regards,
Michael0 -
i would like to post something here but i cant upload a attachment, would someone like to pm me there email address and i will send it to them to post?0
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I understand were you are comeing from, the photo shop thing was funny, most Wing Chun clubs in Ireland are leung ting linage but not all, but remember london is only 50 minutes on a plane . you can get real cheap flights with ryanair, i paid 22euros return last month. in europe there are a lot of Wing Chun competitions- sanda and chi sao, but in Ireland Wing Chun clubs dont enter competitions, i have tried to get them involved but they have all either said NO or just ignored my emails and texts ...
Hi Oldman,
maybe the boxing spars ( helmets, punch/kicks ) will not find a lot of fans as this exercise seems to be considered too far away from WC/WT definition. It can also scare some practicioners that are not looking for that or don't feel ready for it; in my own classes there are currently only 2 students that like to train this exercise . In that I can understand Michael as for some schools boxing spars would require a specific training.
However all schools are training in Chi-Sao, so no specific trainings would be required to organise spars ( or competition , or sharing, or whatever we want to do). I am sure all practicioners would be excited by this opportunity to discover and learn new ways to practice Chi-Sao.
I am in for it , have you few ideas on how could we organise that..?0 -
Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »Hi Oldman,
maybe the boxing spars ( helmets, punch/kicks ) will not find a lot of fans as this exercise seems to be considered too far away from WC/WT definition. It can also scare some practicioners that are not looking for that or don't feel ready for it; in my own classes there are currently only 2 students that like to train this exercise . In that I can understand Michael as for some schools boxing spars would require a specific training.
However all schools are training in Chi-Sao, so no specific trainings would be required to organise spars ( or competition , or sharing, or whatever we want to do). I am sure all practicioners would be excited by this opportunity to discover and learn new ways to practice Chi-Sao.
I am in for it , have you few ideas on how could we organise that..?
I never said anything about boxing sparing! although i do think that boxing is a very good way of training, what im talking about is Wing Chun boxing, with modern safety equipment, mma sparring gloves and head gear (you can even get good head gear with a full carbon fibre face shield) with this type of safety equipment it is quiet easy to do Wing Chun boxing sparring, blocks,parrys,trapping and striking, you also dont have to start off with 100% power, you can start off slowly and build up to 100% over time depending on the experience of your students and what they want to do.There is no specific training required to do Wing Chun boxing apart from what you are already doing, the big difference is that while you are trying to hit some one, they are also trying to hit you and that makes a big difference to STRUCTURE-BALANCE AND MOVEMENT.
Chi Sao competitions in europe do have some head contact, but why not do your own rules to start, follow most of the international rules just take out head contact to start, so palm strikes and punches to the body only, most international competitions go roughly like this.
round 1-blue attacks-red defends
round 2-red attacks-blue defends
round 3-both attack
2 judges, both must agree
8x8 in feet, taped off on the floor, you can not leave the area.
your also not allowed push with the hands,arms or body.
I will be runnng a Kuoshu competiton on the 26th of febuary 2011. there will be a KUOSHU-SANDA AND SHUAI JIAO section, if you want to do a chi sao section and other Wing Chun clubs want to take part just let me know...0 -
I found this about a hour ago, i dont know any of the people but they were just giving the opinions on the first chi sao competition in the uk in 2008...
ContactFighters Feedback on the 2008 Event
James Lynch
I thought it was a great day. Even before it happened it provided a focus for training- really good motivation. The day itself was great fun. The atmosphere was very positive- friendly but competitive. Just being there gave me a great sense of achievement and I hope that the competition gets even bigger next year and just keeps going from strength to strength.
Jeremy Hall
Personally I thought the chi Sao comp was a giant leap forward for Wing Chun in this country, we haven’t had much in the way of inter lineage pressure testing in the UK for a long time now apart from the odd chi Sao exchange which has never been allowed to get out of hand and occasional, very, infrequent fights between practitioners.
What a full contact event offered from my point of view was an opportunity to go full power to really see what works and what doesn’t. I learned a lot from my fight and found it quite difficult receiving forces that are coming from a determined opponent, not a compliant training partner. I have heard criticism that there was no Chi Sao to be seen but I disagree with the comment, Chi Sao at this level becomes much more akin to a real fight, with your first entry from the roll really where the main part of the skill is used. I found that I was not as fit as I needed to be which was something of a personal wakeup call for myself, during the third round I had to really dig deep just to finish the fight, this obviously is a reflection on the state of my own personal Wing Chun and fitness level, but I shall be pursuing a higher level of fitness and conditioning as a result. I believe people will see what had happened this year and go away and begin to work on some of what they saw (and felt!) I know I will, two things I found hard to deal with was the Thai clinch and standing guillotine. My hope is that as the comps and competitor’s progress, the more extravagant techniques such as these will harder to achieve as the competitors skills of structure, sensitivity and self-preservation will increase.
Obviously disallowing throat and head shots changes things but I think in terms of creating an opportunity to hit/ or defend the current format worked well, to allow head shots even with head guards and mama gloves would be too dangerous as unlike mma or boxing a Chi Sao event would allow for the fighters to be in perfect range to have the heavy headshots without any need to close the distance. All in all the rules and regulations were well suited to the event and worked well on the day. Possibly a change of name from Chi Sau to Gor Sau would change peoples perceptions on what they understand is trying to be achieved, with starting from 3 rolls allowing the combat to mature until the fighters break or ref stops the action. There was a good atmosphere in the arena amongst fighters and I think there was a good crowd also. It was a good get together of various schools that may not normally mix and even if that was all that was achieved it is glorious prize. I hope it will consolidate people into a belief that our martial art is more than just a single lineage or school and that we all have something to offer each other and that it will wake people up to the fact that if we don’t get real and seek the truth within our art and ourselves via pressure testing we will lose what we have. Personally I would like to see this event expand, possibly with various regional bouts leading up to a finals session at Seni, but it is not my place to make such bold suggestions. The event was well run and I thought it was a very good idea to have judges from various lineages as opposed to just one school, thus avoiding charges of favouritism and cheating.
Therefore it is with great pleasure that I say thank you to yourself Alan for organising the event and doing the refereeing on the day and also to your students who helped set up the event and the sponsor Pagoda. My thank you also goes out to all the judges, Mark Phillips, Alan Gibson, James Sinclair and Mick Yates. I believe you did a good job and judged fairly. Thank you to everyone who competed and had the guts to get involved with the comp, others may come after but we were the first, stepping into the unknown. Thanks to my friends from all over who came to support me. Especially Aidan T, and Al P. My last thank you goes out to my opponent Aaron Baum, who taught me so much in so little time and proved to be a real gent when I spoke to him the next day.
If I’ve left anyone out I'm sorry, hope to see you all next year.
Simon Liste
The event was a great opportunity for various Wing Chun schools to come together and exchange ideas on the concept of Chi Sao. The organisation of the event was excellent, within an arena that attracted a lot of interest. It was nice to see that Wing Chun was being shown to the public in its martial and artistic manner. It was an honour to have Robert Chu Si Gung, Alan Orr Sifu, Alan Gibson Sifu Mark Phillips Sifu and James Sinclair Sifu judging the event. The event itself produced some great Chi Sao, with no ego or political arguments that has been so rife within the Wing Chun community. It is nice to put Wing Chun back on the map and for the public to see it's true potential and beauty.
Paul Conway
First of all well done too all fighters job well done. What did I learn about the competition (1) is having a good structure when under pressure hold your ground good
Punching skills and know how to move your feet, and don’t put your heart and soul in the first fight control yourself and only strike when the moment is right. It made me look at myself about when we train our Wing Chun we do these drills the forms etc, but when we train we are looking for a good response and doing the job as quick as possible. So going back to the forms drills they are to me a collection of ideas and reference points, they in turn help us be better fighters and help us to act in a more effective way. About the format I think the format is fine but more head shots (with control).
Sai Jun Mak
I thought the Chi Sao event was very well conceived and organised - i very much had an enjoyable and fun day and i believe most of the fighters really enjoyed the day too. I felt the rules were appropriate and the format provided a great platform for Wing Chun
practitioners to really test their skills under pressure within a safe environment. One thing i've noticed since the event are a few rather predictable negative comments posted on the internet regarding the event and the performance of the fighters. I feel this very importantly highlights that many practitioners only seem to have an "idea" of
how Wing Chun should perform functionally - in this case the Chi Sao Open provides a perfect opportunity for such practitioners to showcase and pressure test their Wing Chun skills against a "live" opponent. I feel that for many competitiors, the full contact
amateur NHB rules of the event will positively change how they perceive Wing Chun to perform in application, this is something that a casual observer will simply not be able to appreciate. I feel the Chi Sao Open is a very positive event for the future of Wing Chun. All fighters seemed to have great respect for each other for coming forward to represent their schools and it would be good to see a larger number of schools entering in the future.
Ben Bracegirdle
Thanks for organising the Chi Sau event. A pioneering event that I think has the potential to grow and grow in the future. I really enjoyed competing. It was the first time I ever took part in a combat sports event and It gave me a huge Buzz. The improvments I made during training in the 3 months leading up to the fight Have helped me in all aspects my Wing Tsun and life in general (I lost 10+kg to get down to weight). It has certainly spurred me on to train just as hard in the future.Can't wait to get stuck in again in 12 months time.0 -
I never said anything about boxing sparing! although i do think that boxing is a very good way of training, what im talking about is Wing Chun boxing, with modern safety equipment, mma sparring gloves and head gear (you can even get good head gear with a full carbon fibre face shield) with this type of safety equipment it is quiet easy to do Wing Chun boxing sparring, blocks,parrys,trapping and striking, you also dont have to start off with 100% power, you can start off slowly and build up to 100% over time depending on the experience of your students and what they want to do.There is no specific training required to do Wing Chun boxing apart from what you are already doing, the big difference is that while you are trying to hit some one, they are also trying to hit you and that makes a big difference to STRUCTURE-BALANCE AND MOVEMENT.
Yep absolutely agree + when I said "boxing sparring" I was meaning " Wing Chun boxing" as you defined it.
But some schools do not consider this exercise as interesting from a martial point of view and therefore they would be excluded from an inter-school exchange ( just for the fun I post this link about WC sparring and why some practicioners do not feel ready for this..:D ).
However if some schools do not feel prepared for WC boxing sparrings, they could participate to the chi-sao competition only. We could imagine a day with both Chi-Sao and WC boxing sparrings ( lets call it Lat-Sao ..? ).
Anyway, before going further with this project, I want to check with my students how do they feel with this idea.
Where the February Kuoshu competiton will take place?
bye0 -
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Sorry I forgot the link for the WC sparrings
enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd6JPaYoSq8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL 0
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