Wingtsun / Wingchun Dublin: basic concepts basic exercices

Michael O Leary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWJ3xQwcI60

Hi Tony,

This is the competition you mentioned. This is the reason why I think chi-sau competitions are useless. 95% of Wing Tsun/Chun strategy and techniques involve strikes to the head and neck. Take away the strikes for a competition and all you are left with is pushing and shoving and a bit of neck squeezing. I cannot see any skill here at all.

It is the same when you are using helmets. You can strike someone with a helmet that would in reality hurt them or stop the fight. With the helmet the opponent ignores the strike and both people end up pushing, shoving and neck squeezing.

Or you can allow strikes to the head and neck and end up in real trouble. A few months ago in my instructors class we did some free chi-sau and just did very light strikes to the neck/throat. We all had a lot of pain in the necks for a few days and that was with light taps.

We just have to accept that Wing Tsun/Chun is not good for competitions and I think the only reason they exist is as a gimmick to advertise the art and also why the top Wing Chun guys in the UK don't enter the competitions themselves but match the juniors in their school against each other.

I could be wrong but i'm not.

Regards,

Michael

OLDMAN1

Michael O Leary wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWJ3xQwcI60

Hi Tony,

This is the competition you mentioned. This is the reason why I think chi-sau competitions are useless. 95% of Wing Tsun/Chun strategy and techniques involve strikes to the head and neck. Take away the strikes for a competition and all you are left with is pushing and shoving and a bit of neck squeezing. I cannot see any skill here at all.

THATS THE FIRST TIME I SAW THAT VIDEO AND TO BE HONEST I AGREE, I DONT THINK ITS OF THE HIGEST STANARD, BUT AT LEAST THEIR FIGHTING AND TO BE HONEST I WOULD NEVER KNOCK ANY MAN THAT HAS THE BA**S TO WALK OUT ONTO A MAT AND FIGHT ANOTHER MAN, NO MATTER THE FORMAT WAS AND IF YOU REMEMBER THE LAST POST I PUT UP, SOME OF THE GUYS THAT ENTERED IT NOT ONLY ENJOYED IT, THEY ALSO LEARNED FROM IT, REAL FIGHTING NEVER LOOKS LIKE THE HONG KONG MOVIES, MY MONEY WOULD BE ON THOSE GUYS TO WIN A REAL FIGHT AGAINST ONE OF THOSE WING CHUN GUYS THAT JUST WALK UP AND DOWN ROOMS AND DO DRILLS WITH COMPLIANT OPPONENTS ...

It is the same when you are using helmets. You can strike someone with a helmet that would in reality hurt them or stop the fight. With the helmet the opponent ignores the strike and both people end up pushing, shoving and neck squeezing.

I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF GUYS KNOCKED OUT WITH THOSE HELMETS...

Or you can allow strikes to the head and neck and end up in real trouble. A few months ago in my instructors class we did some free chi-sau and just did very light strikes to the neck/throat. We all had a lot of pain in the necks for a few days and that was with light taps.

SO YOU DON'T LIKE FIGHTING WITH THE HEAD GUARDS AND YOU DON'T LIKE FIGHT WITHOUT THEM...

We just have to accept that Wing Tsun/Chun is not good for competitions and I think the only reason they exist is as a gimmick to advertise the art and also why the top Wing Chun guys in the UK don't enter the competitions themselves but match the juniors in their school against each other.

I could be wrong but i'm not.

Regards,

Michael

I WILL NEVER EXCEPT THAT WING CHUN PEOPLE SHOULD NOT FIGHT BECAUSE THEY CAN. THEY JUST HAVE TO BE TAUGHT HOW TO,WHAT MOST WING CHUN INSTRUCTORS TEACH IS LIKE LEARNING TO SWIM , BUT NEVER GETTING WET,YOU CAN GET A GUY TO STAND ON THE BANK OF A RIVER AND PRACTISE STROKES FOR AS LONG AS YOU WANT,PUSH HIM INTO THE RIVER AND HE WILL DROWN...

SO YOU WOULD BE MORE INTO HEADS OF ASSOCIATIONS TO FIGHT? I'LL FIGHT THE HEAD OF YOUR ASSOCIATION ANYTIME...

YOU ARE WRONG.... TONY...

http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/news.php?id=1772&PHPSESSID=88e92af2045f9a849cdd30c5db6b85ae

WHY DOES THE EWTO HAVE A FULL CONTACT SECTION , IF THEY DONT ENTER COMPETITIONS?

Sid_Justice

Massimo Giorgianni can you tell us more about your experience applying wing chun in bjj or mma environment

Michael O Leary

Hi Tony,

I remember that a previous organisation I used to be in decided to have competitions. They had to create lots of rules for safety which meant they were already starting down a different road from what Wing Tsun/Chun is. Even then in one of the fights one of the guys threw a low roundhouse kick. The other guy did not even defend with a kick, he only put his leg up in a slant position so that the shin of the kicker made contact with the sole of the defenders foot. Anyway the shin bone of the attackers leg broke and the bone came out through the skin. The head of the organisation who was the referee told me he felt like pukeing.:eek: Anyway they then had to create more rules and went further down the road away from Wing Tsun/Chun.

I feel a competition should contribute to your skill in an art. I cannot see how spending months training for a competition like the one above makes your chi-sau or Wing Tsun/Chun better. I think there is a difference in pressure testing Wing Tsun/Chun and using it to compete. Instead of being a one trick pony and hammering away trying to defeat your opponent, you should be aware of your own weakness and this will add focus to your subsequent training.

I have not heard anything about a full contact section of the EWTO apart from that statement you attached.

DONT USE FULL CAPITALS. THE MODERATERS HATE IT AND YOU DON'T WANT TO P1SS THEM OFF.

Regards,

Michael

Doug Cartel

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Even then in one of the fights one of the guys threw a low roundhouse kick. The other guy did not even defend with a kick, he only put his leg up in a slant position so that the shin of the kicker made contact with the sole of the defenders foot. Anyway the shin bone of the attackers leg broke and the bone came out through the skin. The head of the organisation who was the referee told me he felt like pukeing.:eek:

Yeah, people sometimes get hurt at competitions. It's a chance you take.

Instead of being a one trick pony and hammering away trying to defeat your opponent, you should be aware of your own weakness and this will add focus to your subsequent training.

You know what is a great way of finding out what your weaknesses are? Competition.

It really does sound to me like you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. No, competitions don't allow you to do all the moves you train, but that doesn't make them useless. Plenty of martial arts have competitions with rulesets that restrict what they can do, and are all the stronger for it.

tallaght01

I'm only training about a year, but I don't see what we learn that's so dangerous it couldn't be used in competition.

My own organisation doesn't compete either, but I would like to. When we spar, we wear a full head/face helmet, chest guard, groin/kidney guard and very strong shinpads.

I mean, we spar in Krav maga, and that's as far away from a competition sport as you can get. MMA guys and Muay Thai guys beat the snot out of ea other pretty regularly.

It would be nice to bring the different lineages together. Pure self defence is all very well, but for someone like me, who would only ever fight in the street as a seriously last resort, competition would be much more relevant, and would certainly make me train harder.

ON another note, has anyone watched the Fight Quest WC programme? It's on youtube. Though you guys might be interested, as Leung Ting makes an appearance. It's in 4 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6753BnBlzM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdF8wlEg_og&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGyJk6LYe00&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4l5CmDEqg4&feature=related

Sid_Justice

why are you using this forum to have a personal conversation with another bloke? why don't you send him an email?

Michael O Leary

Sid_Justice wrote: »

why are you using this forum to have a personal conversation with another bloke? why don't you send him an email?

Och, your right. Nothing written after 2am on the internet counts anyway.

Barry.Oglesby

Don't be llike that lads I love an oul inter-club barney played out in public. And who doesn't?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sid_Justice wrote: »

why are you using this forum to have a personal conversation with another bloke? why don't you send him an email?

Happens in BJJ threads here all the time, I wouldn't be overly stressed about it.

OLDMAN1

Sid_Justice wrote: »

why are you using this forum to have a personal conversation with another bloke? why don't you send him an email?

its not a personel conversation with another BLOKE. its a discussion about training methods in WING CHUN, which bye the way has over 2000 views, just because its not about whatever martial ats you do, does not mean it is any less important, if you dont like it dont read it. WING CHUN people have the same rights to write about their martial art as you do...

Michael O Leary

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Massimo Giorgianni can you tell us more about your experience applying wing chun in bjj or mma environment

Yep, I would love to hear more about this.

Massimo is gas. After being caught blaggarding he was given a choice to stay and abide by the rules or leave. He left but then badmouths our organisation on his website, he does the same on this thread and then when I respond to him on this, last Thursday night he physically went to his former instructors school to complain about me.

I know I should just ignore him but it is hard when I can see the effort others in our organisation put into training students as honastly and fairly as possible and then to have to listen to his lies and bullshlt is just a bit too much. Over the past 17 years I have seen so many chancers in Wing Tsun and our problem is that we are too nice.

Regards,

Michael

Massimo Giorgianni

He left but then badmouths our organisation on his website, he does the same on this thread and then when I respond to him on this, last Thursday night he physically went to his former instructors school to complain about me.


Back to the beginning of this thread...boring ..

Please show me where I am badmouthing YOUR organisation (specifically yours one ), either on my website or on the board.

I never talked wrong about Aidan and wanted to let him know the calomny pulled here. And so what?

Massimo Giorgianni

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Massimo Giorgianni can you tell us more about your experience applying wing chun in bjj or mma environment

Hi Sid,

what would you exactly to know about my experience applying WC in BJJ /MMA ?

Sid_Justice

anything you wish to share

bedboundmonkey

Massimo doesn’t know how he’s bad mouthing ur organisation?? He either has an extremely low IQ or an incurable case of dickheaditis, or more than likely both. So its not his fault he's talking such crap on this thread in a desperate plea for students and u can understand the fact that he has no clue of what ur talking about.

Doug Cartel

I also would like to hear how wing chun works in a BJJ situation.

yomchi

bedboundmonkey wrote: »

Massimo doesn’t know how he’s bad mouthing ur organisation?? He either has an extremely low IQ or an incurable case of dickheaditis, or more than likely both. So its not his fault he's talking such crap on this thread in a desperate plea for students and u can understand the fact that he has no clue of what ur talking about.

Very classy input. Well thought out and inspiring.

Banned.

yomchi

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

Sorry I forgot the link for the WC sparrings

enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd6JPaYoSq8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

At least they are sparring, but tbh it looks like messy MMA without take downs or ground work. There seems to be no follow up on any use after that jab is sent in, it seems like flailing after that. At least they are sparring though.

SBG Ireland

yomchi wrote: »

At least they are sparring, but tbh it looks like messy MMA without take downs or ground work. There seems to be no follow up on any use after that jab is sent in, it seems like flailing after that. At least they are sparring though.

thats how it always looks, unless one or both have a solid founding in a full contact combat sport

yomchi

SBG Ireland wrote: »

thats how it always looks, unless one or both have a solid founding in a full contact combat sport

Has anyone ever competed MMA from a Wingtsung back ground?

Doug Cartel

yomchi wrote: »

Has anyone ever competed MMA from a Wingtsung back ground?

In Ireland, or in general?

I've heard people say good things about a guy called Alan Orr, but I never really looked into it myself.

yomchi

In Ireland I guess, but if they did compete in MMA would they be using Wingtsung styled moves ala what was in that video. Chuck Liddel did Kenpo, as did myself as a young fella but what he used in the cage was not anything like Kenpo.

Doug Cartel

yomchi wrote: »

[...]if they did compete in MMA would they be using Wingtsung styled moves ala what was in that video.

There's always the argument that fighting all starts to look the same once you start really hitting one another. As for that video I don't think it even looked that much like most wing chun you see - it looked more like they were just milling.

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

thats how it always looks, unless one or both have a solid founding in a full contact combat sport

your 100% right

yomchi

Doug Cartel wrote: »

There's always the argument that fighting all starts to look the same once you start really hitting one another. As for that video I don't think it even looked that much like most wing chun you see - it looked more like they were just milling.

I agree, if you put two untrained fighters together and let them 'at it' the general outcome will be flailing just like a scrap on the road. What they do have initially is that flat footed wingtsung foot work with a lead in jab, after that it is just milling. What was glaring was that the lead in, both from the lead punch and the lead kick were insignificant enough to result in anything else but milling.
Still at least they are sparring, in some capacity.

yomchi

Another thing I find with these types of videos is that people find them and post them up as something that is common among clubs. Chances are these are group of lads who train wingstung and decide they're going to have a 'tits up' session. The fact that they are 'sparring' like this without necessary safety equipment says to me they're more loons than dedicated WT practitioners.

Would I be assuming correctly that this type of milling is not common among WT clubs in Ireland? If it is common I'd love to go watch a session.

OLDMAN1

yomchi wrote: »

Another thing I find with these types of videos is that people find them and post them up as something that is common among clubs. Chances are these are group of lads who train wingstung and decide they're going to have a 'tits up' session. The fact that they are 'sparring' like this without necessary safety equipment says to me they're more loons than dedicated WT practitioners.

Would I be assuming correctly that this type of milling is not common among WT clubs in Ireland? If it is common I'd love to go watch a session.

Your assuming correctly, this type of fighting is not common, the vast majority of them never sparr, the usually reason (excuse) given is thats its to dangerous...

OLDMAN1

Alan orr
http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/sifuinterview2.html

Michael O Leary

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Alan orr
http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/sifuinterview2.html

Hi Tony,

Can you show me a few clips from youtube where you feel that good quality Wing Tsun/Chun has been used successfully in the ring?

Thanks,

Michael