Wingtsun / Wingchun Dublin: basic concepts basic exercices

Massimo Giorgianni

Hi all,


here are few exercices showing basic concepts in Wingtsun Traditional.
The students in this video are all practicising for less than one year.
Hope you will enjoy. Feedbacks and comments are welcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0dqhOLrJRY

more on http://www.wingtsun.webs.com

Bye

Massimo

arybvtcw0eolkf

This is a good idea for a thread for all styles here!.

hagbard

As someone learning Wing Tsun, I really enjoyed this.

As someone who has made quite a lot of videos in my time I'd suggest adding in something after the shot of people standing on one leg. It's not a strong image to end the clip with. Even repeating some of the earlier demonstrations of fighting would give it a lot more punch.

Apologies if that sounds rude, and for the pun.

Michael O Leary

hagbard wrote: »

As someone learning Wing Tsun,

Hi Hagbard,

Where are you training?

M.

hagbard

Michael,
I'm training In Molesworth Hall with Aidan. I've only started recently, but am enjoying it immensely.

Colibri

Nice video, I've been doing WC for about a month and a half now. Seeing this kinda stuff always makes me excited for the upcoming years in training

Michael O Leary

Hi Hagbard,

Glad you are enjoying yourself.:)

Hi Colibri,

Where are you training WC?

M

Colibri

Hello I'm training under Sifu O' Riordan in Cork. Joining was one of the best decisions I've ever made! I love Wing Chun

Massimo Giorgianni

Hi Hagbard,

thank you for your comment, I would follow your advise if not that I spend so many hours ( days, weeks, months...)in creating this video that I have no energy left to change it again. + my girlfriend has her killer instinct active when I go near the PC :eek:

Anyway I appreciated your comment, and I prefer an honest critic rather than nothing..

I see that you joined the WT community . If it could be of any interest , I am giving classes near Harcourt Street. The first class come for free and first month is at half price.

Main difference is the paedagogic method. Few guys with intermediate level from the school you are going now are taking classes with me ..:)

Bye ,
Massimo

Massimo Giorgianni

HI tallaght01,

Thanks for your previous message;
Reguarding your question about Wingchun politics, I never had any interest in Wingchun politics , so I don 't know much about LT imposture. If your Sifu says so, he must have his own reasons.

However , I m practicing for few years now ( almost ten in WT, practiced Thai boxe and BJJ for few months and celtic grappling for a year) and while training under Sifu Serge Parisi, I went in few other school to " compare ".
The main differences I noticed are in paedagogy:

- what is taught: programs or the concepts behind? are people repeating for 4-5 months a drill or are they learning reactions?
- are the techniques applied with pressure or no pressure ?

I saw in some classes ( whatever the lineage ) people training for 4-5 years very good in drills and relaxed Chi-Sao but absolutely unable to react in random reactions..

I consider one the best way to know what you WT worth is to try it on BJJ classes ( the pressure is definitely there and no stress related to throwing / receiving punches) or MMA classes ( same+hits ) . Of course there are rules and you can not express the whole range of your WT skills, but still the test is valid.

Hope this answer your questions

Bye ,
Massimo

Michael O Leary

Massimo actually trained in the Dublin City Centre branch of the Irish Wing Tsun Organisation (IEWTO) and got up to 10th student grade which is about 2.5 years away from Primary (Blackbelt) level. However while he was training there as a student, he was also teaching his own students behind his teachers back and was also teaching in a venue 5 mins from his teachers school.

Now every student in the IEWTO has the opportunity to become an instructor if that is what they want to do and we give them support such as weekly instructor classes, instructor courses, etc. (For example, I give free twice weekly instructor classes in return for instructors helping me in class). Every student can stay a pure student and no-one has to become an instructor. However for those who would like to teach, we would like them to be official instructors and to have a sense of responsiblity.

When we found out that Massimo was teaching behind our backs we told him that he could not continue with this. If he wants to be a student we will teach him the same as we would teach an instructor. If he wants to be an proper instructor then we will give him our full support. However he chose to leave and to teach his own students. Thats fair enough but he thinks we are "small minded" and I think any comments from him should be seen in this context.

OLDMAN1

Where is the post gone about respect an understanding, even if you differ?????

Massimo Giorgianni

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Thats great. I am glad you are enjoying it. What is the story with John's website www.wingchunireland.com? It says now that someone called D. Durkan is teaching now.

I think in all the years I have been on this forum this is the most Wing Tsun/Chun people ever on one thread. Actually I cannot ever remember anyone else on it.

One thing I noticed over the years is that very few BJJ/MMA/Muay Thai guys actually argue with each other on this forum and when they disagree it is still with respect. It would be nice if Wing Tsun/Chun people could do the same without micky measuring & self promotion.

That is absolutely true; the atmosphere and relation are oftenly more respectful in " ring/combat sports" than in SD. Maybe because people can discharge NRJ in sparring, maybe because they do not have to prove anymore how "tough " they are, etc..

Anyway it seems that it will be like this in WT/WC due to the different lineages. Few people argue endlessy and with no respect, but they usually are beginners or egocentric practicioners ( the kind that never experienced the ring or a choke, for instance).
That said, i experienced classes where the paedagogic method seems to be meant to keep student longer than what it should...and the final result leads to an uneffective art ( good for health and nice move though..)

On the other hand, there are some great guys such as Sergio Iadarola, Yannis Simeonidis or the excentric " fighterman " ( on youtube) who are achieving a great job in researching the " essence " of WC within all the different branches and lineages. In the end the important thing is to enjoy this great Art and to make it happen.

Massimo Giorgianni

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Massimo actually trained in the Dublin City Centre branch of the Irish Wing Tsun Organisation (IEWTO) and got up to 10th student grade which is about 2.5 years away from Primary (Blackbelt) level. However while he was training there as a student, he was also teaching his own students behind his teachers back and was also teaching in a venue 5 mins from his teachers school.

Now every student in the IEWTO has the opportunity to become an instructor if that is what they want to do and we give them support such as weekly instructor classes, instructor courses, etc. (For example, I give free twice weekly instructor classes in return for instructors helping me in class). Every student can stay a pure student and no-one has to become an instructor. However for those who would like to teach, we would like them to be official instructors and to have a sense of responsiblity.

When we found out that Massimo was teaching behind our backs we told him that he could not continue with this. If he wants to be a student we will teach him the same as we would teach an instructor. If he wants to be an proper instructor then we will give him our full support. However he chose to leave and to teach his own students. Thats fair enough but he thinks we are "small minded" and I think any comments from him should be seen in this context.

Thank you for speaking in my name Michael, some of your students told me to expect that from you ( the same that are training with me from times to times but have to do "undercover", otherwise: kick out ) As for the " small minded " part I was not pointing the finger to anyone, so no need to point it at yourself..

you forgot few bits in my Curriculum : I trained for 8 years with Sifu Serge Parisi in France, and when I arrived in Dublin wanted to continue training; i did it for a while (more or less a year ) with Aidan, but was not completely satisfied by the method even if Aidan is a nice person. As for the 10th level etc.. don't forget that it is measured with your own specific metrics ( and drills ). I am know 1st level Technician and fully qualified instructor from Serge Parisi.

For the "teaching behind your back" part:
- I did the mistake not to tell Aidan I was giving classes to a couple of co-woker; afterwhat he still gave me the choice to stay or leave
- I am surprised that sentence comes from you, as I can see in some older thread you are trying to convince beginners to join your class rather than Aidan one; are you not from the same organisation?

Once again, you did it ..

Enjoy your day

Craptacular

Massimo (or anyone else for that matter) what is the "paedagogic method"?

Also you need to update your website as it says after training for 9 years with Serge Parisi you are currently preparing for your 1st Degree Technician which you said above you have.

Massimo Giorgianni

Hi Craptacular,

thanks for the reminder about the website, will update it.

For the "paedagogic method ": pardon my french, maybe this expression does not make sense in english.
By"paedagogic method " I meant the method an instructor choose to show his students how to progress. For instance few concepts or body connections showed to advanced practicioners are perfectly applicable by beginners ( and they enjoy it !). Or a practicioner can be stuck under the same program and drills with the same partner for months. Even if he is ready to move forward and learn more, he is at the "program X " and therefore he will not be tought further. For what I have seen this leads to make a practicioner completely mechanical and not reactive.

Doug Cartel

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

Hi Craptacular,

thanks for the reminder about the website, will update it.

For the "paedagogic method ": pardon my french, maybe this expression does not make sense in english.

I think Craptacular was asking what pedagogical methods you use. You said earlier that this is what distinguishes your branch of wing chun from others, so what exactly are these differences?

Massimo Giorgianni

Hi Doug,

If I try to explain it I would miss many points and would be too approximative.

I ll try to summarize from a general point of view: the "pressure " and its related fighting intentions are taught as a major basic to beginners; it is constantly present throughout technical explanations, practical exercises and free sparrings. I noticed this last bit is often missing, and little by little drills and technics are executed as "special combos" working only with pre-conceived scheme. When a MMA/BJJ guy throw several punch/kick, it is not normal for a WT guy to freak out or fly away because he has no stance/reactions.
Finally, I retain Chi-Sao and related concepts such as spring effect or turning stance as the core of WC. I don't understand when 2 years practicioners says that they practiced it a couple of time only.

It is hard to express all of it in few words and we could go on for hours; there are billions of video on Youtube where you can easily see what I am saying. For instance Fighterman talks a lot about these core concepts.

To finish ( when I posted the video it was only to share and promote what we are doing ) everyone try and choose the school / method that suits him more. Once again the important is to enjoy.

Michael O Leary

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Where is the post gone about respect an understanding, even if you differ?????

Hi Anthony,

I know. I didn't really want to write it. When Massimo first told us on boards that he was opening in Dublin I wished him good luck.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055735908

At the start at this thread I didn't want to go down this road but now we have gotton to the stage where he is making comments about us in order to promote himself and I prefer to nip this in the bud.

Maybe I am wrong but I think you would do the same.

Regards,

Michael

Craptacular

Thanks Massimo. If I understand correctly by paedagogy method you mean method of instruction and the difference between organisations, that you have seen, is not in what they teach but in how and when they teach it. For example the organisation you've been with for 9 years moves people on to new things when they think they understand and know other things and introduces concepts earlier. Would that be right?

Congratulations on you 1st technician degree by the way. It can't be easy to train for something like that when your instructor lives in another country.

Mr. Manager

hagbard wrote: »

Michael,
I'm training In Molesworth Hall with Aidan. I've only started recently, but am enjoying it immensely.

Hey, I used to train with Aidan, Nick and Darren.

Haven't been in about 12 months or more.

I sent an e-mail asking what day it is on in and has the fee changed at all.

Any info would be great,

Thanks!

Massimo Giorgianni

Craptacular wrote: »

Thanks Massimo. If I understand correctly by paedagogy method you mean method of instruction and the difference between organisations, that you have seen, is not in what they teach but in how and when they teach it. For example the organisation you've been with for 9 years moves people on to new things when they think they understand and know other things and introduces concepts earlier. Would that be right?

Congratulations on you 1st technician degree by the way. It can't be easy to train for something like that when your instructor lives in another country.

Hi Craptacular,

that's it you got it right, it's about the "how", "when ".

Thanks by the way for the congrats; it took me daily training with my students or by myself to achieve it ( daily bread from now on:D . I organised one week in Paris for intense trainings every two- three months + seminar of my Sifu here in Dublin.

Bye ,
Massimo

Michael O Leary

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

For the "teaching behind your back" part:
- I did the mistake not to tell Aidan I was giving classes to a couple of co-woker; afterwhat he still gave me the choice to stay or leave
Enjoy your day

It all sounds very innocent claiming to be informally teaching co-workers but it is not true. You were advertising your classes on the internet looking for students from the general public. I think this was the website. http://www.seraph.ie/

Massimo Giorgianni

Michael O Leary wrote: »

It all sounds very innocent claiming to be informally teaching co-workers but it is not true. You were advertising your classes on the internet looking for students from the general public. I think this was the website. http://www.seraph.ie/

Michael, for the last time:

- I promote my WT with my video, and would not dare speak bad about other practicioners / instructors. I don't remember have done this.

- I had this opinion about instructing methods since I was a beginner and still will have now. I still don't understand why you felt I was speaking about you personally.

I am now wondering if it bother you not te be the only one promoting his classes on the board..(?)

Conversation is over. I won't spend more time and nrj for that. Have a walk, couple of pint, whatever cheers you up.


Massimo

yomchi

I hate this sh1te in martial arts I really do. The lad is teaching, people are enjoying. no one's getting killed.

1st dan/technical levels/degree technicians etc etc mean nothing to nobody in the greater scheme of things so train, enjoy and live and let live.

I'd rather see the thread stick to what it was about which was training methods within WT because now it's really stupid.

OLDMAN1

yomchi wrote: »

I hate this sh1te in martial arts I really do. The lad is teaching, people are enjoying. no one's getting killed.

1st dan/technical levels/degree technicians etc etc mean nothing to nobody in the greater scheme of things so train, enjoy and live and let live.

I'd rather see the thread stick to what it was about which was training methods within WT because now it's really stupid.

+1

Massimo i would like to hear more about your training methods and especially how they differ from other branches of Wing Chun.yourself and michael must do most things the same as you both come from leung Ting stuff...

Michael O Leary

Hi guys,

I will try and be as objective and as fair as I can with this. Jon and Anthony -I am sorry if this seems silly but I know that if people were putting down Urban Combatives, etc that you would want to speak up, especially if these people were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

I am now wondering if it bother you not te be the only one promoting his classes on the board..(?)
Massimo

To be honast I have spent a lot of time on boards over the past few years defending Wing Tsun and I would have loved some support from Wing Tsun/Chun people. Thats why I initially welcomed you on boards and wished you good luck. I also think it is good for Wing Tsun/Chun in general to have more schools in Ireland.

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

- I promote my WT with my video, and would not dare speak bad about other practicioners / instructors. I don't remember have done this.

Well you might want to read some of your posts again.

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

Main difference is the paedagogic method. Few guys with intermediate level from the school you are going now are taking classes with me

- what is taught: programs or the concepts behind? are people repeating for 4-5 months a drill or are they learning reactions?
- are the techniques applied with pressure or no pressure ?

I saw in some classes ( whatever the lineage ) people training for 4-5 years very good in drills and relaxed Chi-Sao but absolutely unable to react in random reactions..

i did it for a while (more or less a year ) with Aidan, but was not completely satisfied by the method

But I will try and be fair. I have been told by people I respect that you are pretty good at Wing Tsun. I also think you have shown initiative in setting up a school, a website, a video, etc.

On the other hand we did not expect that behind our back you would be advertising for and teaching your own students. And when after Aidan had a word with you, you described him as small minded. So the reason for my response is to put your comments in context which I feel are a case of sour grapes.

Anyway, if you or anyone else has any more comments/questions, feel free to ask.

Regards,

Michael

Massimo Giorgianni

Your bla bla sounds now as a gross manipulation. The last calomny about me describing Aidan is even insulting.
Whatever you say, it’s ok.
Good night

Massimo Giorgianni

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

+1

Massimo i would like to hear more about your training methods and especially how they differ from other branches of Wing Chun.yourself and michael must do most things the same as you both come from leung Ting stuff...

Hi Oldman,
As you said most of teachings content are the same within Wingchun branches + being in constant evolution every branch developed his own “fruits”. And when I say branch I also consider each instructor within same organizations. It s a pleasure go in other schools or meet other practicioners and exchange.
Reguarding the discussion on the method of instruction and the place I give to “pressure” , I said it will be hard to explain and I would forget a lot... but I try anyway and I ‘ll start with an example: what will happen at his first match to a Thai boxer training his techniques only with very light contacts / pressure ?

During the classes, and especially with beginners, I try to make them aware of their “aggressive “ potential. Some don’t need it as they naturally are prone to fight spirit. But others learned different styles for few years and have been taught to “simulate “ an attack ( the punch will stop 10 cm away from target, the stance is static while partner B is applying his defensive technique, etc.. ). In case of competitors, sometime the rules are that if you "touch" the chest it gives you 2 points and the head 1points.
So on a pragmatical level, we starts by learn how to throw punches on target, connect with the ground and have forward pressure ( at this stage i would defined it as “walking toward your target while you are attacking it” ). Very basic but essential. Both partner A and B , the attacker and the counter attacker, have to work their exercises with the intention of fighting. So if their mind is not fully focus they’ ll get hit or put off balance. Targets for punch are chest/ belly/ ribs ( open hand for ribs ) for punches, genitals tigh/ tibias for kicks. Pressure can be applied from “light “ to “ Kyokushin-like “, depending of the exercices and how much self-control people have.
Once the mind is use to this and is more quiet, we build reactions and “ techniques “ over it. Then, if the exercice is a drill of 1,2,3,4 impulses-reactions and step 2 is missing or is not done prpoerly , you get hit. End of the drill; start again. When pressure is not there, you don’t “feel “ if there is a mistake, and the drill can go on four 5 min non-stop. The technique become floppy or mechanical and will hardly happen in a free sparring.
I hope this is a start at your question.
I saw in one of the answers that you are part of an organisation too. What are you practicising?

OLDMAN1

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

Hi Oldman,
As you said most of teachings content are the same within Wingchun branches + being in constant evolution every branch developed his own “fruits”. And when I say branch I also consider each instructor within same organizations. It s a pleasure go in other schools or meet other practicioners and exchange.
Reguarding the discussion on the method of instruction and the place I give to “pressure” , I said it will be hard to explain and I would forget a lot... but I try anyway and I ‘ll start with an example: what will happen at his first match to a Thai boxer training his techniques only with very light contacts / pressure ?

During the classes, and especially with beginners, I try to make them aware of their “aggressive “ potential. Some don’t need it as they naturally are prone to fight spirit. But others learned different styles for few years and have been taught to “simulate “ an attack ( the punch will stop 10 cm away from target, the stance is static while partner B is applying his defensive technique, etc.. ). In case of competitors, sometime the rules are that if you "touch" the chest it gives you 2 points and the head 1points.
So on a pragmatical level, we starts by learn how to throw punches on target, connect with the ground and have forward pressure ( at this stage i would defined it as “walking toward your target while you are attacking it” ). Very basic but essential. Both partner A and B , the attacker and the counter attacker, have to work their exercises with the intention of fighting. So if their mind is not fully focus they’ ll get hit or put off balance. Targets for punch are chest/ belly/ ribs ( open hand for ribs ) for punches, genitals tigh/ tibias for kicks. Pressure can be applied from “light “ to “ Kyokushin-like “, depending of the exercices and how much self-control people have.
Once the mind is use to this and is more quiet, we build reactions and “ techniques “ over it. Then, if the exercice is a drill of 1,2,3,4 impulses-reactions and step 2 is missing or is not done prpoerly , you get hit. End of the drill; start again. When pressure is not there, you don’t “feel “ if there is a mistake, and the drill can go on four 5 min non-stop. The technique become floppy or mechanical and will hardly happen in a free sparring.
I hope this is a start at your question.
I saw in one of the answers that you are part of an organisation too. What are you practicising?

Thank you for your answer and don't worry about leaving anything out, it can be a hard question to answer on a message board,I know your students are inexperienced but does your branch believe in sparring and competitions? the reason im asking is that i know Michael's EWTO and some other branches dont enter compeitions or spar..

I practice WING CHUN...

Massimo Giorgianni

Do you practice in Dublin? if yes what 's the school?

Even if restrictive ( no locks, no punch in throat or spinal column, no elbows/knees in the face, no kicks in the articulations ), I believe sparrings can be very usefull and there is a lot to learn from it: I will hit and get hit ( so I know how it feels on a emotional and pshychological level), miss few opportunities, will see what connections in my body are weak, apply my basics etc... . I think it is also good on a psychological level to build confidence and destroy the ego as a beginner can surprise an advanced practicioner with some tricks or his aggressivity.

Do you sparr yourself or in your school?

Bye,
Massimo

OLDMAN1

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

Do you practice in Dublin? if yes what 's the school?

Even if restrictive ( no locks, no punch in throat or spinal column, no elbows/knees in the face, no kicks in the articulations ), I believe sparrings can be very usefull and there is a lot to learn from it: I will hit and get hit ( so I know how it feels on a emotional and pshychological level), miss few opportunities, will see what connections in my body are weak, apply my basics etc... . I think it is also good on a psychological level to build confidence and destroy the ego as a beginner can surprise an advanced practicioner with some tricks or his aggressivity.

Do you sparr yourself or in your school?

Bye,
Massimo

I live and train in Meath now, THE ROYAL COMBAT CLUB...
www.sanshou.ie

Im glad to hear that you spar, not enough Wing Chun clubs do, we spar at least half of every class, sure its fun...

Michael O Leary

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i know Michael's EWTO and some other branches dont enter compeitions or spar..I practice WING CHUN...

Hi Anthony,

We don't really enter competitions however I did enter a competition in 1995. It was a full contact Sanshou rules competition run by Niall Keane's organisation. Paul Mitchell and Pamela euborg (SP?) were the referees. I was fighting one of Dave Joyce's guys who was in a Muay Thai demo earlier in the day. His name was Eoghan and he did both Kung-Fu and Muay Thai with Dave. I wasn't very good at WT having only been doing it for about two years and Dave Joyce told me that Eoghan wasn't very experienced either. Anyway I won my fight decisively however I should mention that two of Dave's guys beat two of our guys. I made sure I used the Wing Tsun principles by staying close to my opponent while hitting him.

I don't like to use the word "sparring" as different people have different ideas of what sparring is. EG: Light, semi, full contact, points based, sparring with sticks, strikes, grappling, etc. I prefer to use the term "pressure test". We pressure test our Wing Tsun in the conditions that it was designed for. So for example we are less likely to have someone apply a Kimura on us but more likely for someone to throw a punch, swing a baseball bat in our face and therefore we pressure test the latter.

So students partner off, one group are the attackers and they don't do Wing Tsun as the role of the exercise is not WT against WT. The attackers put on gloves and try to hit their opponent and the opponent trains to defend using Wing Tsun. Sometimes the attackers makes a committed attack, sometimes they feint, sometimes they enter into a clinch. Sometimes we do free chi-sau and sometimes we put the free chi-sau into the exercise.

I try to get students doing this from night one and the level of intensity depends on the experience of the student. Students should get hit about 3 out of every 10 times. If they never get hit then the pace is too slow. If they are getting hit 10 out of 10 times then they get frustrated and don't learn anything. We try and keep it at a level where they are challanged but not overwhelmed.

Regards,

Michael

tallaght01

Presumably doing pressure drills where the attacker doesn't "do" WC is fine for learning to defend against an untrained attacker, but the benefit of sparring is in learning to fight someone who's competent in martial arts.

We spar (hard contact, but with "full head" helmet, shinpads,torso guard, abdo/groin guard) and i think it's useful. Though I enjoy pressure training, and it has it's place, sparring is sustainable for longer periods of time, so there should be more neural pathway action going on for future recall of techniques, and it's good for seeing the holes in the type of attacks I'm doing myself.

I also do krav, where the focus is on fighting untrained opponents under a lot of pressure. But this is a different skill set to fighting a trained fighter, IMHO.

In saying that, i'm doing Victor Kan WC less than a year, so I'm no expert.

Peetrik

tallaght01 wrote: »

Presumably doing pressure drills where the attacker doesn't "do" WC is fine for learning to defend against an untrained attacker

Hehe actually I was wondering this myself, "they don't do WT" is a landmine of a sentence for those who believe that realistic competitive sparring is a must for development as a fighter.
Im sure its not the case but I straight away get images tenitive smiles and then slow motion flailed punches that are never intended to land.

OLDMAN1

tallaght01 wrote: »

Presumably doing pressure drills where the attacker doesn't "do" WC is fine for learning to defend against an untrained attacker, but the benefit of sparring is in learning to fight someone who's competent in martial arts.

We spar (hard contact, but with "full head" helmet, shinpads,torso guard, abdo/groin guard) and i think it's useful. Though I enjoy pressure training, and it has it's place, sparring is sustainable for longer periods of time, so there should be more neural pathway action going on for future recall of techniques, and it's good for seeing the holes in the type of attacks I'm doing myself.

I also do krav, where the focus is on fighting untrained opponents under a lot of pressure. But this is a different skill set to fighting a trained fighter, IMHO.

In saying that, i'm doing Victor Kan WC less than a year, so I'm no expert.

hi, were do you do the Victor Kan WC?

Massimo Giorgianni

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

I live and train in Meath now, THE ROYAL COMBAT CLUB...
www.sanshou.ie

Im glad to hear that you spar, not enough Wing Chun clubs do, we spar at least half of every class, sure its fun...

HI,

it's a bit far to go there from here; maybe one day..
If you ever pass by Dublin and have time , would be cool if you'd stop by our classe and share a bit of your stuff.

Bye

Michael O Leary

tallaght01 wrote: »

Presumably doing pressure drills where the attacker doesn't "do" WC is fine for learning to defend against an untrained attacker, but the benefit of sparring is in learning to fight someone who's competent in martial arts.

Hi Tallaght,

I disagree that pressure testing against someone who doesn't do Wing Tsun means they are untrained. Even if it was the case, an untrained attacker can still be dangerous. However it just means there is a risk that if Wing Tsun/Chun trains against Wing Tsun/Chun there is a risk we won't know what to do if someone applies a round attack for example.

I also did mention that we sometimes do free chi-sau which could be described as Wing Tsun/Chun vs Wing Tsun/Chun. And then sometimes we blend the pressure testing so that an opponent might engage with a jab, roundkick, we would defend using Wing Tsun however rather than it stopping there, the opponent will get closer and that is when the chi-sau reactions will kick in.

Regards,

Michael

tallaght01

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

hi, were do you do the Victor Kan WC?

I train in Queensland, Australia. sadly, there's no Victor kan club in Ireland. Closest are the clubs in England.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Victor-Kan-Ving-Tsun-Wing-Chun-Brisbane/156081211091081

http://www.vingtsunvk.com.au/

http://www.vingtsunvk.com/

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Hi Tallaght,

I disagree that pressure testing against someone who doesn't do Wing Tsun means they are untrained. Even if it was the case, an untrained attacker can still be dangerous. However it just means there is a risk that if Wing Tsun/Chun trains against Wing Tsun/Chun there is a risk we won't know what to do if someone applies a round attack for example.

I also did mention that we sometimes do free chi-sau which could be described as Wing Tsun/Chun vs Wing Tsun/Chun. And then sometimes we blend the pressure testing so that an opponent might engage with a jab, roundkick, we would defend using Wing Tsun however rather than it stopping there, the opponent will get closer and that is when the chi-sau reactions will kick in.

Regards,

Michael

I agree that pressure drills have their uses. But sparring against people using the same skills that you're supposed to have is a central part to virtually all martial arts, because your skill against your peers is a way of measuring your own abilities, and because it helps us to learn what works from the receiving end. I've just felt that sparring offered something that pressure drilling doesn't, though it's hard to put a finger on it.

I've never known a martial art where sparring isn't used, but I'm no expert. I know you do chi sao, but that's a different, specific skillset (albeit with significant crossover).

On another note, are you guys aware that a new magazine dedicated to Wing Chun is coming out in the new year. First of its kind, I believe. here's their facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/wingchunillustrated

OLDMAN1

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

HI,

it's a bit far to go there from here; maybe one day..
If you ever pass by Dublin and have time , would be cool if you'd stop by our classe and share a bit of your stuff.

Bye

I will arrange something in the new year...

OLDMAN1

tallaght01 wrote: »

I train in Queensland, Australia. sadly, there's no Victor kan club in Ireland. Closest are the clubs in England.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Victor-Kan-Ving-Tsun-Wing-Chun-Brisbane/156081211091081

http://www.vingtsunvk.com.au/

http://www.vingtsunvk.com/



I agree that pressure drills have their uses. But sparring against people using the same skills that you're supposed to have is a central part to virtually all martial arts, because your skill against your peers is a way of measuring your own abilities, and because it helps us to learn what works from the receiving end. I've just felt that sparring offered something that pressure drilling doesn't, though it's hard to put a finger on it.

I've never known a martial art where sparring isn't used, but I'm no expert. I know you do chi sao, but that's a different, specific skillset (albeit with significant crossover).

On another note, are you guys aware that a new magazine dedicated to Wing Chun is coming out in the new year. First of its kind, I believe. here's their facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/wingchunillustrated

i didn't know you were from austrailia, the best of luck with your training, i agree that sparring is a important part of training that chi sao does not cover, to many WING CHUN clubs have replaced sparring with chi sao...

tallaght01

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i didn't know you were from austrailia, the best of luck with your training, i agree that sparring is a important part of training that chi sao does not cover, to many WING CHUN clubs have replaced sparring with chi sao...

I'm not from Australia. I'm from Tallaght. But I work in Oz.


My job will always involve a lot of overseas work, but I'm going to try and base myself in Dublin/Wicklow in about 18 months, and I don't know where I'l train. I love WC and don't want to give it up. But most of the schools in Dublin are Leung Ting lineage, and my poor old Sifu would have a seizure if I trained there.

http://www.vingtsunvk.com/

Look under news>VT world news. I have no issue with Leung Ting, but I'd hate to annoy my sifu, as I feel a lot of loyalty to the club, as they really go that extra mile in training us. I know they feel quite offended at Leung Ting's claims at being a Yip Man student, and feel he has discredited WC. It's a way of life for Victor, and I feel a sense of duty to progress to a club they'd approve of, as gay as that sounds. Especially as I'd like to go to London a few times a year to train with Victor when I'm based in Ireland.

So, if anyone knows a good WC in Dublin/Arklow/Greystones that's not Leung Ting then I'd love to know about it. I mean no offense to Leung Ting WC practitioners. I'm just trying to ruffle as few feathers as possible.

hagbard

tallaght01, would it be possible to attend a Leung Ting club and just keep it quiet?

OLDMAN1

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm not from Australia. I'm from Tallaght. But I work in Oz.


My job will always involve a lot of overseas work, but I'm going to try and base myself in Dublin/Wicklow in about 18 months, and I don't know where I'l train. I love WC and don't want to give it up. But most of the schools in Dublin are Leung Ting lineage, and my poor old Sifu would have a seizure if I trained there.

http://www.vingtsunvk.com/

Look under news>VT world news. I have no issue with Leung Ting, but I'd hate to annoy my sifu, as I feel a lot of loyalty to the club, as they really go that extra mile in training us. I know they feel quite offended at Leung Ting's claims at being a Yip Man student, and feel he has discredited WC. It's a way of life for Victor, and I feel a sense of duty to progress to a club they'd approve of, as gay as that sounds. Especially as I'd like to go to London a few times a year to train with Victor when I'm based in Ireland.

So, if anyone knows a good WC in Dublin/Arklow/Greystones that's not Leung Ting then I'd love to know about it. I mean no offense to Leung Ting WC practitioners. I'm just trying to ruffle as few feathers as possible.

I understand were you are comeing from, the photo shop thing was funny, most Wing Chun clubs in Ireland are leung ting linage but not all, but remember london is only 50 minutes on a plane . you can get real cheap flights with ryanair, i paid 22euros return last month. in europe there are a lot of Wing Chun competitions- sanda and chi sao, but in Ireland Wing Chun clubs dont enter competitions, i have tried to get them involved but they have all either said NO or just ignored my emails and texts ...

Craptacular

I believe there's an EBMAS club in Finglas.

Why so much bull about who taught who in China decades ago? Is the important thing the lineage of the club or how well you train and how much you learn?

I've trained under numerous people in Shotokan. Some were brilliant, some less so. None of them failed to teach me something and improve my karate. I couldn't tell you who any of their instructor's instructor's instructor was.

Peetrik

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i have tried to get them involved but they have all either said NO or just ignored my emails and texts ...

Have you tried this?

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/109217

tallaght01

Craptacular wrote: »

I believe there's an EBMAS club in Finglas.

Why so much bull about who taught who in China decades ago? Is the important thing the lineage of the club or how well you train and how much you learn?

I've trained under numerous people in Shotokan. Some were brilliant, some less so. None of them failed to teach me something and improve my karate. I couldn't tell you who any of their instructor's instructor's instructor was.

I'm not making any judgement whatsoever about the quality of WC thought by any one. The Leung Ting stuff could be 10 times better than what I'm learning. That's not my point at all.

The point is that I go to a Victor Kan school, and he was Ip Man's assistant instructor when he got older. They were pretty tight, and Victor teaches exactly as he was taught. WC guys get pretty obsessive about this. Leung Ting apparently used to tell people he learned the art straight from Ip Man, and then confessed that he didn't. So, even though they're both WC, they teach some different things. I don't really care about that to be honest.

But that wouldn't stop me. The barrier for me is that the Victor Kan school has been teaching me something I love, and he puts his whole life into teaching. He's been personally very offended about what he regards as someone else discrediting WC and his late Sifu. I' like to fly to England and keep training in his schools, but I'd feel like I'm betraying the school if I went to a Leung Ting school.

To you and me it seems a bit daft. But when you've literally devoted your life to something, I guess these things become very raw.

I think with shotokan you learn the same stuff in all the schools and the syllabus is the same etc. That's not the same in WC, where the belt system and syllabus are often quite different.

I really genuinely don't want to offend any of the WC guys with what I've said. This is just me trying to be loyal to my teacher, as opposed to making any judgement on other clubs, as I'm in no position to do that.

I think I'll be taking oldman's advice and travelling to London quite a bit to train. Though I'm not all that pushed about competition. Though my bird often competes around Europe in TKD and swears once I get into it there's no goin back :P

What's EBMAS, btw?

OLDMAN1

Craptacular wrote: »

I believe there's an EBMAS club in Finglas.

Why so much bull about who taught who in China decades ago? Is the important thing the lineage of the club or how well you train and how much you learn?

I've trained under numerous people in Shotokan. Some were brilliant, some less so. None of them failed to teach me something and improve my karate. I couldn't tell you who any of their instructor's instructor's instructor was.

lineages or branches of WING CHUN don't really matter as all branches teach 95% the same stuff as in forms and techiquines, the problem is that certain lineages are run by people that have grades that they gave themselves and have lied to there are students,some have even gone as far as to do a bit with pictures and photo shop, in the YIP MAN lineage: Yip Man never gave out any grades or certs, ever, but as soon as he died there was at least 10 grandmasters claiming that Yip Man said they were to take over, the funny thing was that Yip Man wasn't the grandmaster of WING CHUN and never claimed he was, its his students that claimed he was, there never was a grandmaster in WING CHUN, but now there are at least 3 in the UK,1 in northern Ireland, another 5 or so in europe, at least 10 in Hong Hong and i lost count of the number in the states, if a guy turned up in Ireland and claimed he was a 10th degree black belt in shotokan or bjj, but really he was a 1st degree or never graded and never fought in any competitions ,what would you think?...

OLDMAN1

EBMAS is another branch down from leung ting

Michael O Leary

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

in Ireland Wing Chun clubs dont enter competitions, i have tried to get them involved but they have all either said NO or just ignored my emails and texts ...

Hi Anthony,

I am not sure if I was included in this. The reason I don't enter competitions is that I am just not interested. As I mentioned previously, I did enter a Sanshou competition, did well and won my fight but was just not interested in taking it further as I didn't really see it as benefitting my Wing Tsun. I see competition and self-defence as two seperate things. I have a finite amount of time and the more time I would spend preparing for competitions, the less time I would spend training Wing Tsun for what it was designed for.

I could write more but I would only be repeating what I have written on boards.ie over the past six years.

Regards,

Michael

Michael O Leary

tallaght01 wrote: »

most of the schools in Dublin are Leung Ting lineage, and my poor old Sifu would have a seizure if I trained there.

http://www.vingtsunvk.com/

Look under news>VT world news. I have no issue with Leung Ting, but I'd hate to annoy my sifu, as I feel a lot of loyalty to the club, as they really go that extra mile in training us. I know they feel quite offended at Leung Ting's claims at being a Yip Man student, and feel he has discredited WC. It's a way of life for Victor, and I feel a sense of duty to progress to a club they'd approve of, as gay as that sounds. Especially as I'd like to go to London a few times a year to train with Victor when I'm based in Ireland.

So, if anyone knows a good WC in Dublin/Arklow/Greystones that's not Leung Ting then I'd love to know about it.

Hi Tallaght01,

I am glad you are enjoying training Ving Tsun with Victor Kan's organisation in Oz. I also think its great that you feel a lot of loyalty to your club. If I had any advice from my 17 years in Wing Tsun, it would be to take what people say with a pince of salt. Martial Arts and Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun is rife with politics. The "news" that you refer to above is only Victor Kan's opinion. He also describes himself as "The true inheritor of Yip Man's Traditional Ving Tsun "Wing Chun" - the World's Highest Authority. He also states that his school is the only school that teaches classical "Traditional" Ving Tsun IN THE WORLD.
http://www.vingtsunvk.com/

As with every story there are two sides to the Leung Ting story. I would encourage you to think in a bit more of a critical manner. It won't conflict with you being a loyal student.

Compared to other martial arts, what you and I do is very similar with only minor differences. I am also sure that your Sifu (Mark Lamkin?) is a good guy and does go the extra mile in training you. Here in the IEWTO we also go the extra mile in training students and it would be sad if after a year of training with your Sifu in Oz, he would have a problem with you training with us just because the head of his organisation has a problem with the head of our organisation.

Anyway there are three Leung Ting Wing Tsun schools in Dublin.
Blanchardstown - www.wingtsun-blanchardstown.ie
Finglas - www.wingtsunireland.com/dublin-finglas-school/
Dublin City Centre - www.wingtsunireland.com/dublin-city-center-school/

If you feel that you can't train with us then there are two schools that teach in Dublin who teach Leung Ting Wing Tsun but who are part of independant organisations.
Finglas, Dalkey, Dublin City Centre - www.kungfudublin.com
Dublin City Centre - www.wingtsun.webs.com

If you feel that you can't train with them then as far as I know there are two groups teaching Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun. However they teach in secret and don't even know the other group exists.
This guy has students in Dublin. http://www.raiswift.com/
This other guy is apparently teaching. boubekeur@hotmail.com

Or for something a little closer to home - www.wingtsun-brisbane.com/

Regards,

Michael