Wingtsun / Wingchun Dublin: basic concepts basic exercices

Massimo Giorgianni

Hi all,


here are few exercices showing basic concepts in Wingtsun Traditional.
The students in this video are all practicising for less than one year.
Hope you will enjoy. Feedbacks and comments are welcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0dqhOLrJRY

more on http://www.wingtsun.webs.com

Bye

Massimo

arybvtcw0eolkf

This is a good idea for a thread for all styles here!.

hagbard

As someone learning Wing Tsun, I really enjoyed this.

As someone who has made quite a lot of videos in my time I'd suggest adding in something after the shot of people standing on one leg. It's not a strong image to end the clip with. Even repeating some of the earlier demonstrations of fighting would give it a lot more punch.

Apologies if that sounds rude, and for the pun.

Michael O Leary

hagbard wrote: »

As someone learning Wing Tsun,

Hi Hagbard,

Where are you training?

M.

hagbard

Michael,
I'm training In Molesworth Hall with Aidan. I've only started recently, but am enjoying it immensely.

Colibri

Nice video, I've been doing WC for about a month and a half now. Seeing this kinda stuff always makes me excited for the upcoming years in training

Michael O Leary

Hi Hagbard,

Glad you are enjoying yourself.:)

Hi Colibri,

Where are you training WC?

M

Colibri

Hello I'm training under Sifu O' Riordan in Cork. Joining was one of the best decisions I've ever made! I love Wing Chun

Massimo Giorgianni

Hi Hagbard,

thank you for your comment, I would follow your advise if not that I spend so many hours ( days, weeks, months...)in creating this video that I have no energy left to change it again. + my girlfriend has her killer instinct active when I go near the PC :eek:

Anyway I appreciated your comment, and I prefer an honest critic rather than nothing..

I see that you joined the WT community . If it could be of any interest , I am giving classes near Harcourt Street. The first class come for free and first month is at half price.

Main difference is the paedagogic method. Few guys with intermediate level from the school you are going now are taking classes with me ..:)

Bye ,
Massimo

Massimo Giorgianni

HI tallaght01,

Thanks for your previous message;
Reguarding your question about Wingchun politics, I never had any interest in Wingchun politics , so I don 't know much about LT imposture. If your Sifu says so, he must have his own reasons.

However , I m practicing for few years now ( almost ten in WT, practiced Thai boxe and BJJ for few months and celtic grappling for a year) and while training under Sifu Serge Parisi, I went in few other school to " compare ".
The main differences I noticed are in paedagogy:

- what is taught: programs or the concepts behind? are people repeating for 4-5 months a drill or are they learning reactions?
- are the techniques applied with pressure or no pressure ?

I saw in some classes ( whatever the lineage ) people training for 4-5 years very good in drills and relaxed Chi-Sao but absolutely unable to react in random reactions..

I consider one the best way to know what you WT worth is to try it on BJJ classes ( the pressure is definitely there and no stress related to throwing / receiving punches) or MMA classes ( same+hits ) . Of course there are rules and you can not express the whole range of your WT skills, but still the test is valid.

Hope this answer your questions

Bye ,
Massimo

Michael O Leary

Massimo actually trained in the Dublin City Centre branch of the Irish Wing Tsun Organisation (IEWTO) and got up to 10th student grade which is about 2.5 years away from Primary (Blackbelt) level. However while he was training there as a student, he was also teaching his own students behind his teachers back and was also teaching in a venue 5 mins from his teachers school.

Now every student in the IEWTO has the opportunity to become an instructor if that is what they want to do and we give them support such as weekly instructor classes, instructor courses, etc. (For example, I give free twice weekly instructor classes in return for instructors helping me in class). Every student can stay a pure student and no-one has to become an instructor. However for those who would like to teach, we would like them to be official instructors and to have a sense of responsiblity.

When we found out that Massimo was teaching behind our backs we told him that he could not continue with this. If he wants to be a student we will teach him the same as we would teach an instructor. If he wants to be an proper instructor then we will give him our full support. However he chose to leave and to teach his own students. Thats fair enough but he thinks we are "small minded" and I think any comments from him should be seen in this context.

OLDMAN1

Where is the post gone about respect an understanding, even if you differ?????

Massimo Giorgianni

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Thats great. I am glad you are enjoying it. What is the story with John's website www.wingchunireland.com? It says now that someone called D. Durkan is teaching now.

I think in all the years I have been on this forum this is the most Wing Tsun/Chun people ever on one thread. Actually I cannot ever remember anyone else on it.

One thing I noticed over the years is that very few BJJ/MMA/Muay Thai guys actually argue with each other on this forum and when they disagree it is still with respect. It would be nice if Wing Tsun/Chun people could do the same without micky measuring & self promotion.

That is absolutely true; the atmosphere and relation are oftenly more respectful in " ring/combat sports" than in SD. Maybe because people can discharge NRJ in sparring, maybe because they do not have to prove anymore how "tough " they are, etc..

Anyway it seems that it will be like this in WT/WC due to the different lineages. Few people argue endlessy and with no respect, but they usually are beginners or egocentric practicioners ( the kind that never experienced the ring or a choke, for instance).
That said, i experienced classes where the paedagogic method seems to be meant to keep student longer than what it should...and the final result leads to an uneffective art ( good for health and nice move though..)

On the other hand, there are some great guys such as Sergio Iadarola, Yannis Simeonidis or the excentric " fighterman " ( on youtube) who are achieving a great job in researching the " essence " of WC within all the different branches and lineages. In the end the important thing is to enjoy this great Art and to make it happen.

Massimo Giorgianni

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Massimo actually trained in the Dublin City Centre branch of the Irish Wing Tsun Organisation (IEWTO) and got up to 10th student grade which is about 2.5 years away from Primary (Blackbelt) level. However while he was training there as a student, he was also teaching his own students behind his teachers back and was also teaching in a venue 5 mins from his teachers school.

Now every student in the IEWTO has the opportunity to become an instructor if that is what they want to do and we give them support such as weekly instructor classes, instructor courses, etc. (For example, I give free twice weekly instructor classes in return for instructors helping me in class). Every student can stay a pure student and no-one has to become an instructor. However for those who would like to teach, we would like them to be official instructors and to have a sense of responsiblity.

When we found out that Massimo was teaching behind our backs we told him that he could not continue with this. If he wants to be a student we will teach him the same as we would teach an instructor. If he wants to be an proper instructor then we will give him our full support. However he chose to leave and to teach his own students. Thats fair enough but he thinks we are "small minded" and I think any comments from him should be seen in this context.

Thank you for speaking in my name Michael, some of your students told me to expect that from you ( the same that are training with me from times to times but have to do "undercover", otherwise: kick out ) As for the " small minded " part I was not pointing the finger to anyone, so no need to point it at yourself..

you forgot few bits in my Curriculum : I trained for 8 years with Sifu Serge Parisi in France, and when I arrived in Dublin wanted to continue training; i did it for a while (more or less a year ) with Aidan, but was not completely satisfied by the method even if Aidan is a nice person. As for the 10th level etc.. don't forget that it is measured with your own specific metrics ( and drills ). I am know 1st level Technician and fully qualified instructor from Serge Parisi.

For the "teaching behind your back" part:
- I did the mistake not to tell Aidan I was giving classes to a couple of co-woker; afterwhat he still gave me the choice to stay or leave
- I am surprised that sentence comes from you, as I can see in some older thread you are trying to convince beginners to join your class rather than Aidan one; are you not from the same organisation?

Once again, you did it ..

Enjoy your day

Craptacular

Massimo (or anyone else for that matter) what is the "paedagogic method"?

Also you need to update your website as it says after training for 9 years with Serge Parisi you are currently preparing for your 1st Degree Technician which you said above you have.

Massimo Giorgianni

Hi Craptacular,

thanks for the reminder about the website, will update it.

For the "paedagogic method ": pardon my french, maybe this expression does not make sense in english.
By"paedagogic method " I meant the method an instructor choose to show his students how to progress. For instance few concepts or body connections showed to advanced practicioners are perfectly applicable by beginners ( and they enjoy it !). Or a practicioner can be stuck under the same program and drills with the same partner for months. Even if he is ready to move forward and learn more, he is at the "program X " and therefore he will not be tought further. For what I have seen this leads to make a practicioner completely mechanical and not reactive.

Doug Cartel

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

Hi Craptacular,

thanks for the reminder about the website, will update it.

For the "paedagogic method ": pardon my french, maybe this expression does not make sense in english.

I think Craptacular was asking what pedagogical methods you use. You said earlier that this is what distinguishes your branch of wing chun from others, so what exactly are these differences?

Massimo Giorgianni

Hi Doug,

If I try to explain it I would miss many points and would be too approximative.

I ll try to summarize from a general point of view: the "pressure " and its related fighting intentions are taught as a major basic to beginners; it is constantly present throughout technical explanations, practical exercises and free sparrings. I noticed this last bit is often missing, and little by little drills and technics are executed as "special combos" working only with pre-conceived scheme. When a MMA/BJJ guy throw several punch/kick, it is not normal for a WT guy to freak out or fly away because he has no stance/reactions.
Finally, I retain Chi-Sao and related concepts such as spring effect or turning stance as the core of WC. I don't understand when 2 years practicioners says that they practiced it a couple of time only.

It is hard to express all of it in few words and we could go on for hours; there are billions of video on Youtube where you can easily see what I am saying. For instance Fighterman talks a lot about these core concepts.

To finish ( when I posted the video it was only to share and promote what we are doing ) everyone try and choose the school / method that suits him more. Once again the important is to enjoy.

Michael O Leary

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Where is the post gone about respect an understanding, even if you differ?????

Hi Anthony,

I know. I didn't really want to write it. When Massimo first told us on boards that he was opening in Dublin I wished him good luck.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055735908

At the start at this thread I didn't want to go down this road but now we have gotton to the stage where he is making comments about us in order to promote himself and I prefer to nip this in the bud.

Maybe I am wrong but I think you would do the same.

Regards,

Michael

Craptacular

Thanks Massimo. If I understand correctly by paedagogy method you mean method of instruction and the difference between organisations, that you have seen, is not in what they teach but in how and when they teach it. For example the organisation you've been with for 9 years moves people on to new things when they think they understand and know other things and introduces concepts earlier. Would that be right?

Congratulations on you 1st technician degree by the way. It can't be easy to train for something like that when your instructor lives in another country.

Mr. Manager

hagbard wrote: »

Michael,
I'm training In Molesworth Hall with Aidan. I've only started recently, but am enjoying it immensely.

Hey, I used to train with Aidan, Nick and Darren.

Haven't been in about 12 months or more.

I sent an e-mail asking what day it is on in and has the fee changed at all.

Any info would be great,

Thanks!

Massimo Giorgianni

Craptacular wrote: »

Thanks Massimo. If I understand correctly by paedagogy method you mean method of instruction and the difference between organisations, that you have seen, is not in what they teach but in how and when they teach it. For example the organisation you've been with for 9 years moves people on to new things when they think they understand and know other things and introduces concepts earlier. Would that be right?

Congratulations on you 1st technician degree by the way. It can't be easy to train for something like that when your instructor lives in another country.

Hi Craptacular,

that's it you got it right, it's about the "how", "when ".

Thanks by the way for the congrats; it took me daily training with my students or by myself to achieve it ( daily bread from now on:D . I organised one week in Paris for intense trainings every two- three months + seminar of my Sifu here in Dublin.

Bye ,
Massimo

Michael O Leary

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

For the "teaching behind your back" part:
- I did the mistake not to tell Aidan I was giving classes to a couple of co-woker; afterwhat he still gave me the choice to stay or leave
Enjoy your day

It all sounds very innocent claiming to be informally teaching co-workers but it is not true. You were advertising your classes on the internet looking for students from the general public. I think this was the website. http://www.seraph.ie/

Massimo Giorgianni

Michael O Leary wrote: »

It all sounds very innocent claiming to be informally teaching co-workers but it is not true. You were advertising your classes on the internet looking for students from the general public. I think this was the website. http://www.seraph.ie/

Michael, for the last time:

- I promote my WT with my video, and would not dare speak bad about other practicioners / instructors. I don't remember have done this.

- I had this opinion about instructing methods since I was a beginner and still will have now. I still don't understand why you felt I was speaking about you personally.

I am now wondering if it bother you not te be the only one promoting his classes on the board..(?)

Conversation is over. I won't spend more time and nrj for that. Have a walk, couple of pint, whatever cheers you up.


Massimo

yomchi

I hate this sh1te in martial arts I really do. The lad is teaching, people are enjoying. no one's getting killed.

1st dan/technical levels/degree technicians etc etc mean nothing to nobody in the greater scheme of things so train, enjoy and live and let live.

I'd rather see the thread stick to what it was about which was training methods within WT because now it's really stupid.

OLDMAN1

yomchi wrote: »

I hate this sh1te in martial arts I really do. The lad is teaching, people are enjoying. no one's getting killed.

1st dan/technical levels/degree technicians etc etc mean nothing to nobody in the greater scheme of things so train, enjoy and live and let live.

I'd rather see the thread stick to what it was about which was training methods within WT because now it's really stupid.

+1

Massimo i would like to hear more about your training methods and especially how they differ from other branches of Wing Chun.yourself and michael must do most things the same as you both come from leung Ting stuff...

Michael O Leary

Hi guys,

I will try and be as objective and as fair as I can with this. Jon and Anthony -I am sorry if this seems silly but I know that if people were putting down Urban Combatives, etc that you would want to speak up, especially if these people were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

I am now wondering if it bother you not te be the only one promoting his classes on the board..(?)
Massimo

To be honast I have spent a lot of time on boards over the past few years defending Wing Tsun and I would have loved some support from Wing Tsun/Chun people. Thats why I initially welcomed you on boards and wished you good luck. I also think it is good for Wing Tsun/Chun in general to have more schools in Ireland.

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

- I promote my WT with my video, and would not dare speak bad about other practicioners / instructors. I don't remember have done this.

Well you might want to read some of your posts again.

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

Main difference is the paedagogic method. Few guys with intermediate level from the school you are going now are taking classes with me

- what is taught: programs or the concepts behind? are people repeating for 4-5 months a drill or are they learning reactions?
- are the techniques applied with pressure or no pressure ?

I saw in some classes ( whatever the lineage ) people training for 4-5 years very good in drills and relaxed Chi-Sao but absolutely unable to react in random reactions..

i did it for a while (more or less a year ) with Aidan, but was not completely satisfied by the method

But I will try and be fair. I have been told by people I respect that you are pretty good at Wing Tsun. I also think you have shown initiative in setting up a school, a website, a video, etc.

On the other hand we did not expect that behind our back you would be advertising for and teaching your own students. And when after Aidan had a word with you, you described him as small minded. So the reason for my response is to put your comments in context which I feel are a case of sour grapes.

Anyway, if you or anyone else has any more comments/questions, feel free to ask.

Regards,

Michael

Massimo Giorgianni

Your bla bla sounds now as a gross manipulation. The last calomny about me describing Aidan is even insulting.
Whatever you say, it’s ok.
Good night

Massimo Giorgianni

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

+1

Massimo i would like to hear more about your training methods and especially how they differ from other branches of Wing Chun.yourself and michael must do most things the same as you both come from leung Ting stuff...

Hi Oldman,
As you said most of teachings content are the same within Wingchun branches + being in constant evolution every branch developed his own “fruits”. And when I say branch I also consider each instructor within same organizations. It s a pleasure go in other schools or meet other practicioners and exchange.
Reguarding the discussion on the method of instruction and the place I give to “pressure” , I said it will be hard to explain and I would forget a lot... but I try anyway and I ‘ll start with an example: what will happen at his first match to a Thai boxer training his techniques only with very light contacts / pressure ?

During the classes, and especially with beginners, I try to make them aware of their “aggressive “ potential. Some don’t need it as they naturally are prone to fight spirit. But others learned different styles for few years and have been taught to “simulate “ an attack ( the punch will stop 10 cm away from target, the stance is static while partner B is applying his defensive technique, etc.. ). In case of competitors, sometime the rules are that if you "touch" the chest it gives you 2 points and the head 1points.
So on a pragmatical level, we starts by learn how to throw punches on target, connect with the ground and have forward pressure ( at this stage i would defined it as “walking toward your target while you are attacking it” ). Very basic but essential. Both partner A and B , the attacker and the counter attacker, have to work their exercises with the intention of fighting. So if their mind is not fully focus they’ ll get hit or put off balance. Targets for punch are chest/ belly/ ribs ( open hand for ribs ) for punches, genitals tigh/ tibias for kicks. Pressure can be applied from “light “ to “ Kyokushin-like “, depending of the exercices and how much self-control people have.
Once the mind is use to this and is more quiet, we build reactions and “ techniques “ over it. Then, if the exercice is a drill of 1,2,3,4 impulses-reactions and step 2 is missing or is not done prpoerly , you get hit. End of the drill; start again. When pressure is not there, you don’t “feel “ if there is a mistake, and the drill can go on four 5 min non-stop. The technique become floppy or mechanical and will hardly happen in a free sparring.
I hope this is a start at your question.
I saw in one of the answers that you are part of an organisation too. What are you practicising?

OLDMAN1

Massimo Giorgianni wrote: »

Hi Oldman,
As you said most of teachings content are the same within Wingchun branches + being in constant evolution every branch developed his own “fruits”. And when I say branch I also consider each instructor within same organizations. It s a pleasure go in other schools or meet other practicioners and exchange.
Reguarding the discussion on the method of instruction and the place I give to “pressure” , I said it will be hard to explain and I would forget a lot... but I try anyway and I ‘ll start with an example: what will happen at his first match to a Thai boxer training his techniques only with very light contacts / pressure ?

During the classes, and especially with beginners, I try to make them aware of their “aggressive “ potential. Some don’t need it as they naturally are prone to fight spirit. But others learned different styles for few years and have been taught to “simulate “ an attack ( the punch will stop 10 cm away from target, the stance is static while partner B is applying his defensive technique, etc.. ). In case of competitors, sometime the rules are that if you "touch" the chest it gives you 2 points and the head 1points.
So on a pragmatical level, we starts by learn how to throw punches on target, connect with the ground and have forward pressure ( at this stage i would defined it as “walking toward your target while you are attacking it” ). Very basic but essential. Both partner A and B , the attacker and the counter attacker, have to work their exercises with the intention of fighting. So if their mind is not fully focus they’ ll get hit or put off balance. Targets for punch are chest/ belly/ ribs ( open hand for ribs ) for punches, genitals tigh/ tibias for kicks. Pressure can be applied from “light “ to “ Kyokushin-like “, depending of the exercices and how much self-control people have.
Once the mind is use to this and is more quiet, we build reactions and “ techniques “ over it. Then, if the exercice is a drill of 1,2,3,4 impulses-reactions and step 2 is missing or is not done prpoerly , you get hit. End of the drill; start again. When pressure is not there, you don’t “feel “ if there is a mistake, and the drill can go on four 5 min non-stop. The technique become floppy or mechanical and will hardly happen in a free sparring.
I hope this is a start at your question.
I saw in one of the answers that you are part of an organisation too. What are you practicising?

Thank you for your answer and don't worry about leaving anything out, it can be a hard question to answer on a message board,I know your students are inexperienced but does your branch believe in sparring and competitions? the reason im asking is that i know Michael's EWTO and some other branches dont enter compeitions or spar..

I practice WING CHUN...

Massimo Giorgianni

Do you practice in Dublin? if yes what 's the school?

Even if restrictive ( no locks, no punch in throat or spinal column, no elbows/knees in the face, no kicks in the articulations ), I believe sparrings can be very usefull and there is a lot to learn from it: I will hit and get hit ( so I know how it feels on a emotional and pshychological level), miss few opportunities, will see what connections in my body are weak, apply my basics etc... . I think it is also good on a psychological level to build confidence and destroy the ego as a beginner can surprise an advanced practicioner with some tricks or his aggressivity.

Do you sparr yourself or in your school?

Bye,
Massimo