Minor car collision on roundabout-disputing liability!!

corktina

Malty_T wrote: »

No s/he shouldn't have been. The OP was going the exit straight from his entry point. He doesn't have to signal right, any more that you don't signal right when passing the left exit on the standard 4 exit/entry roundabout when you are going straight on.

sorry but its the THIRD exit (and it isnt striaght ahead) For the first exit you indicate left, for the second you indicate left at the first exit, for the third you indicate right and then left at the second exit. Whats happened here is the "other" driver has assumed the car to be turning left when a right hand indication would have made it clear he wasnt turning there. I think the second guy is most to blame but had the OP been indicating, i doubt the crash would have happened, also had the OP been in the RH lane, ditto

Mr. Presentable

corktina wrote: »

sorry but its the THIRD exit (and it isnt striaght ahead) For the first exit you indicate left, for the second you indicate left at the first exit, for the third you indicate right and then left at the second exit. Whats happened here is the "other" driver has assumed the car to be turning left when a right hand indication would have made it clear he wasnt turning there. I think the second guy is most to blame but had the OP been indicating, i doubt the crash would have happened, also had the OP been in the RH lane, ditto

The only thing that matters is the OP, rightly or not, was constant in his lane and another car left his lane and drove into him.

sesna

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

The only thing that matters is the OP, rightly or not, was constant in his lane and another car left his lane and drove into him.

Exactly, which lane to to use on a roundabout is not laid out in Road Traffic legislation. It is merely guidance used in the Rules of the Road. The other driver changed lane without due regard to the OP and thus imo is responsible here.

Turtwig

corktina wrote: »

sorry but its the THIRD exit (and it isnt striaght ahead) For the first exit you indicate left, for the second you indicate left at the first exit, for the third you indicate right and then left at the second exit. Whats happened here is the "other" driver has assumed the car to be turning left when a right hand indication would have made it clear he wasnt turning there. I think the second guy is most to blame but had the OP been indicating, i doubt the crash would have happened, also had the OP been in the RH lane, ditto

My understanding is that the OP was going from Condell to Tescoes, passed the exit to Eddie Rockets, was about to pass the exit to the Ennis Road and was heading on to Tescoes. In which case from his POV going on the clock Tescoes is still regarded as his 11/12 O clock exit. Roundabouts aren't judged by exit numbers, you judge them by which hand of the clock the exit falls at. Anything between 12 and 6 requires a right signal and to be on the inner lanes, anything between 6 and 12 requires a left signal and to be on the outer lane just after you passed the exit before your intended exit. In which case if the first exit is straight on you still gotta signal left and be in the left lane for most roundabouts. The OP was under no obligation to signal right (Unless that roundabout has got roadmarkings that dictate otherwise since I've last been on it.).

djimi

corktina wrote: »

sorry but its the THIRD exit (and it isnt striaght ahead) For the first exit you indicate left, for the second you indicate left at the first exit, for the third you indicate right and then left at the second exit. Whats happened here is the "other" driver has assumed the car to be turning left when a right hand indication would have made it clear he wasnt turning there. I think the second guy is most to blame but had the OP been indicating, i doubt the crash would have happened, also had the OP been in the RH lane, ditto

This raises a point Ive always wondered about actually. When it comes to an accident and there is no witnesses I presume whether or not someone indicated is your word against theirs and ultimately isnt taken too much into consideration, is it?

lir6777

Malty_T wrote: »

My understanding is that the OP was going from Condell to Tescoes, passed the exit to Eddie Rockets, was about to pass the exit to the Ennis Road and was heading on to Tescoes. In which case from his POV going on the clock Tescoes is still regarded as his 11/12 O clock exit. The OP was under no obligation to signal right (Unless that roundabout has got roadmarkings that dictate otherwise since I've last been on it.).

This is exactly right, I have no doubt I was in the correct lane and had no obligation to signal until AFTER I passed the exit before the one I wished to take, at which time I would indicate left. The gardai and my insurance guy both looked into the lane matter and agreed I was not in the wrong lane.
My real issue here is proving I didn't just cut across the TP as he is saying I did....:(
Hearing everyone's opinions is a great help though and gives me hope that surely I can show TP's insurance company that I was in the right too...fingers crossed...

slimjimmc

corktina wrote: »

sorry but its the THIRD exit (and it isnt striaght ahead) For the first exit you indicate left, for the second you indicate left at the first exit, for the third you indicate right and then left at the second exit. Whats happened here is the "other" driver has assumed the car to be turning left when a right hand indication would have made it clear he wasnt turning there. I think the second guy is most to blame but had the OP been indicating, i doubt the crash would have happened, also had the OP been in the RH lane, ditto

I believe you must have missed post #7 where he states he was going for a new exit not shown on the Google map and which is effectively straight ahead from where he entered the roundabout. That would mean he was perfectly correct to stay in the left lane and to not indicate any direction until he passed the 2nd exit. If he was aiming for the 4th exit you would be correct.

slimjimmc

lir6777 wrote: »

This is exactly right, I have no doubt I was in the correct lane and had no obligation to signal until AFTER I passed the exit before the one I wished to take, at which time I would indicate left. The gardai and my insurance guy both looked into the lane matter and agreed I was not in the wrong lane.
My real issue here is proving I didn't just cut across the TP as he is saying I did....:(
Hearing everyone's opinions is a great help though and gives me hope that surely I can show TP's insurance company that I was in the right too...fingers crossed...

I think the fact that there is collision damage to the front right of your car and the left side of his car speaks for itself. Even if he had already indicated left it still doesn't give him right of way to enter your lane when not clear.

charlemont

yeah your right, the guy that hit you was not looking at the road properly..

Cass

Your situation is one i face twice a day. Not the crashing bit, but the complete stupidity of motorists that have no concept of how to use a roundabout. They come to the roundabout in a straight line, enter the roundabout straight (irresoective of which lane they should be in) and try tp do as minimal turning as possible then cut across both lanes f a roundabout to their exit.

I think it spawns from ignorance of the rules of the road, lack of awareness, speeding, and the fact that they think other motorists will avoid them and if not they will just claim.


Stick to your guns. It sounds as though the other driver entered the roundabout at speed, was not watching you, ASSUMED you may be turning off the same exit as him, and just ploughed on. Been looking at the roundabout to get an idea of the road.

Bigcheeze

Malty_T wrote: »

Roundabouts aren't judged by exit numbers, you judge them by which hand of the clock the exit falls at. Anything between 12 and 6 requires a right signal and to be on the inner lanes, anything between 6 and 12 requires a left signal and to be on the outer lane just after you passed the exit before your intended exit.

The only official documentation (rules of the road) or official guidance (RSA TV ads) I've seen refer to the exit number system. Did you learn to drive in the UK by any chance as I believe they use the clock system over there ?

While the clock system has the advantage of being intuitive I believe the exit number system is superior because there is little ambiguity about which lane you should be in. The clock system leads to interpretation of exits being before or after 12.

By the way has anyone seen the ludicrous roundabout markings at the Ballymun roundabout on the M50 if you're coming from the direction of IKEA? Both lanes approaching the roundabout are marked M50 which is the 3rd exit and Naul which is the 2nd exit meaning that the road markings direct traffics into collisions where cars in the left lane want to go to 3rd exit and cars in the right lane want to go to the 2nd exit.

Turtwig

Bigcheeze wrote: »

The only official documentation (rules of the road) or official guidance (RSA TV ads) I've seen refer to the exit number system. Did you learn to drive in the UK by any chance as I believe they use the clock system over there ?

While the clock system has the advantage of being intuitive I believe the exit number system is superior because there is little ambiguity about which lane you should be in. The clock system leads to interpretation of exits being before or after 12.

Learned to drive in Ireland and I'm fairly confident the clock system is used here. I don't know which is more intuitve as I only ever tried one and would be more inclined to say the one I'm used to is the one that is more intuitive but may only be because I'm so used to it. Eitherway it's irrelevant because the clock system is to the best of knowledge what's used here.

Bigcheeze

Malty_T wrote: »

Learned to drive in Ireland and I'm fairly confident the clock system is used here. I don't know which is more intuitve as I only ever tried one and would be more inclined to say the one I'm used to is the one that is more intuitive but may only be because I'm so used to it. Eitherway it's irrelevant because the clock system is to the best of knowledge what's used here.

What's your source ? Like I said, the RSA tv campaign makes no mention of it and last time I looked at the rules of the road which I admit was a few years ago, there was no mention of any clock system.

guil

afaik the rules of the road state 2nd, 3rd etc,
never heard of the clock system

killian colgan

Motorist that enters roundabout does not have to give as heavy a burden of proof in an accident as any subsequent motorist that enters, provided it is within 180 degrees of coming on to it. Stand your ground. Go back to the roundabout and see if the council's road signage is compatable with all dept of Enviornment guidelines. If they are held to be inept, inform the garda to whom you you reported the acident, youre insurers will back you up reporting this. Other motorist to take liability in tort

astrofool

Bigcheeze wrote: »

What's your source ? Like I said, the RSA tv campaign makes no mention of it and last time I looked at the rules of the road which I admit was a few years ago, there was no mention of any clock system.

guil wrote: »

afaik the rules of the road state 2nd, 3rd etc,
never heard of the clock system

The ROTR were updated about 2 (maybe 1?) year ago with new guidance around rounadabouts.

Amazingly, not all roundabouts in the country were 3,6,9,12 o'clock layouts.

lir6777

I learned to drive in Ireland in 2004 and was taught the clock system. All the above comments just go to show how inconsistent the driving schools in this country are

guil

lir6777 wrote: »

I learned to drive in Ireland in 2004 and was taught the clock system. All the above comments just go to show how inconsistent the driving schools in this country are

lol i learned to drive in 04 aswell and then 08 in a truck

Jimbob1977

Apologies.....

After reviewing the RSA handbook that was issued to Irish households (Pages 108 - 110) it is indeed incredibly ambiguous!! There is merit for the exit number system and the clock face system.


From the RSA handbook (paraphrased Page 109):

• If you are going straight ahead, you can take the left lane.

The OP is theoretically in the correct position. However, the worked example uses a standard roundabout where the second exit is straight ahead as per usual.

In this Limerick instance, the third exit is straight ahead for Tesco.


From the book (paraphrased Page 110):

• Taking any later exits, approach in the right-hand lane.

It is unclear if "later" means "later than straight ahead" or "later than the second exit".

This incident might be a score draw with both sides taking care of their own damage.

OP - take note of Page 109 as your saving grace. It is straight ahead to Tesco and the RSA says it's acceptable. Get a protractor and make sure that Tesco is dead ahead:)

lir6777

So thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. Nearly three months on the insurers are still disputing liability. My insurer (Quinn) have proven themselves completely incapable of fighting my side. A solicitor friend of my family advised that Quinn are known in her business for being useless to stand up for their policy holders. The solicitor advised that the case should have been almost straightforward, in that, whatever the case with lanes etc., the TP crossed my lane without ensuring it was safe to do so. Quinn Insurance seem unable to use the facts of the accident to argue their (and my) case.
I have had to do most of the legwork in this claim- my claim manager waited almost two months to apply for the garda report, during which time he advised that it would be "easier all round" if I would agree to cover my own costs if TP would cover theirs. A garda sergeant I know has looked at the case and consulted with his colleague who did the report on the accident. Turns out the gardai who attended the scene of the collision agreed that the TP was at fault. Quinn haven't even been able to use this to help their case, nor did the claim manager get this opinion in writing, which the gardai were happy to offer.
I have been advised by Quinn that, if the liability is still in dispute when it is time for my renewal in March, they would "recover their potential costs" from me. Sorry now, they will never get another penny from me.
I wanted to warn all drivers that Quinn Direct are to be avoided at all costs. I will be renewing in March with Axa, who are the TP's insurers and who have proven they can hold their ground (although right now I wish they wouldn't). Be warned, Quinn will do everything they can to get you to pay your own costs and then pay a higher premium due to a claim on your record. They are useless insurers and the man I am dealing with is an asshole. He changes his mind constantly as regards who was at fault, he has tried to use insignificant details to get me to believe I was at fault (even though he tells me I did nothing wrong) and he has given me some awful advice, which he later denies ever saying.
BEWARE!!!Quinn do not deserve your business.

dr.fuzzenstein

Couldn't you take your insurer to court?
You know you're right and they're trying to ride you.
Try the ombudsman, they'd put manners on 'em.