Trinity...prestigious or overrated?????

slander83

Hey there,
Just thought I'd throw this out there. Is Trinity College Dublin as prestigious a university as it is made out to be or is it overrated ...????? And are univeristies like University of limerick or NUIM underrated ?????

Tragedy

How do you measure prestige? Your peers? Your parents? Your friends? Industry in Ireland? Industry abroad? Media?

slander83

I just mean the quality of education....the university has a reputation of being the best in Ireland and i'm just wondering is it all a big myth or is it accurate to say that it's ahead of the other universities acedemically ????

Tragedy

slander83 wrote: »

I just mean the quality of education....the university has a reputation of being the best in Ireland and i'm just wondering is it all a big myth or is it accurate to say that it's ahead of the other universities acedemically ????

Like any college, depends entirely on the individual course and the lecturer.

snappieT

Tragedy wrote: »

Like any college, depends entirely on the individual course and the lecturer.

+1

Ahoyhoy

I think this depends on what you're studying. UCD has an excellent reputation for business courses, UCC an excellent reputation for biosciences, Trinity for Law and Drama, NUIM for the Arts, UL however does have a load of new courses which have yet to be really tried and I don't think it's famed for anything in particular. NUIG is meant to be good for health science I think.

gearoidof

Both!

zoom!

overated

JonJoeDali

slander83 wrote: »

And are univeristies like University of limerick or NUIM underrated ?????

NUIM is very well regarded in certain areas (such as theology).

UL is a kip. Definitely not "under-rated".

DHYNZY

In general (and it is being very general), Trinity is a world class university. But that doesn't mean that other universities don't have better departments in some cases, a notable one being UCDs business department.

gearoidof

zoom!, you've only been in the college for 6 weeks, and already think it's overrated?

Is it because of Bidisha oh my ghosh?

anothernight

gearoidof wrote: »

zoom!, you've only been in the college for 6 weeks, and already think it's overrated?

Is it because of Bidisha oh my ghosh?

I can see why she'd make him think that alright >_<


I think it's slightly overrated. A lot of people seem to consider it the best university in Ireland when, as other people here have said, each university is good at different things.

JonJoeDali

anothernight wrote: »

I can see why she'd make him think that alright >_<


I think it's slightly overrated. A lot of people seem to consider it the best university in Ireland when, as other people here have said, each university is good at different things.

UL is not a university AFAIC. There's no theology and classics department for staters. It's a glorified State-funded regional polytech and is driven by politics, not intellectualism. That said, there's plenty of pop studying going on at Trinity.

The only thing preventing us from assimilating fully into one of seven homogenised HEA-approved universities is the power of our 400 year legacy.

slander83

UL (When I was at the open-day) did seem like it was just plonked in the middle of Castleroy ...it reminded me of an IT more than a university....it's there purley due to political reasons as opposed to the NUIs or Trinity (not sure about DCU) It was founded as the National Institute for Higher Education and thats what it should have remained as, If i'm not mistaken I think DCU is similar (I haven't been so i don't want to judge) as it too became a universtiy in the same way that UL did .....
I just think that the Universities that were set up in 1845 as the queen's University's (I think that excludes NUIM) ,UCD and Trinity have a much better reputation than the other newer Universities.....

Denerick

TCD is far better at teaching the humanities, they actually treat their students as adults and encourage self directed learning and curiosity, as opposed to colleges like UCD who treat you like a child and an imbecile.

I cannot comment on commerce or science orientated degree's.

Killer Pigeon

Denerick wrote: »

TCD is far better at teaching the humanities, they actually treat their students as adults and encourage self directed learning and curiosity, as opposed to colleges like UCD who treat you like a child and an imbecile.

I cannot comment on commerce or science orientated degree's.

How exactly does UCD threat it's students like children/imbeciles. Please elaborate.

Denerick

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

How exactly does UCD threat it's students like children/imbeciles. Please elaborate.

For a start they would demand rhetorical flourishes such as mine be moderated in the interests of vague aspirations to objectivity. They'll harp on about the 'skill set' (One of the most hideous terms devised by modern management consultant parasites) they will gain from a degree that won't teach you skills, but ideally should only serve to broaden your mind. Finally they have to keep exams and essays really easy as most of their applicants are generic arts entrants on c. 320 CAO points - make the course too challenging and they will drop out. UCD would lose a cash cow. So in a very real sense students are treated like children. And economic units.

I dislike the way the humanities are taught in most universities in Britain and Ireland, the emphasis at undergraduate level at least is mainly on keeping the cash cow in the university, eroding quality and difficulty in the process. The exception are the top institutions like Trinity in Dublin, Queens in Belfast, or Oxbridge in England. There are a few colleges like this but most are losing the fight against commercialisation and caving in to those who see a university degree as little more than a flashy light on your CV. It really is a crying shame as some of the faculty in UCD is really fantastic but they are suffocated by administrators and marketers from head office who have never taught in their life but insist on lecturing to lecturers the correct way to 'impart skills'. It all comes at the expense of individual self learning.

I accept that the overwhelming majority of this post is devoid of tangible evidence, fairness and its probably not even logically consistent, so I'll just point that out before you do.

Cpt_Blackbeard

JonJoeDali wrote: »

UL is not a university AFAIC. There's no theology and classics department for staters. It's a glorified State-funded regional polytech and is driven by politics, not intellectualism. .

Yes because Religion and the classics are of utmost importance for the future of our world :rolleyes:

I wonder how many people's opinions are those of D4 heads looking down on Limerick

Denerick

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Yes because Religion and the classics are of utmost importance for the future of our world :rolleyes:

I wonder how many people's opinions are those of D4 heads looking down on Limerick

Try building a society based around utilitarian fantasies about productivity and economic growth. I'll die before Ireland ever becomes a ****hóle where boozing becomes the paragon of cultural activity, and where corrupt politicians unwittingly ruin the country by having a profound lack of understanding of historical precedent.

Hmm...

JonJoeDali

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Yes because Religion and the classics are of utmost importance for the future of our world :rolleyes:

I wonder how many people's opinions are those of D4 heads looking down on Limerick

Numbers don't lie. Where is UL on the international university rankings?

Also, why are you so dismissive of religion and classics? Do you know anyone who has a BA in theology or classics? I'm a techie and have lots of respect for a quality classic education. I guess you're one of those people who weigh the value of an education in terms of its economic value. If you want an education, go to a red brick university (no, that doesn't include DCU). If you want a qualification, I'm sure UL will do something for your job prospects in one of the local factories.

JonJoeDali

Denerick wrote: »

TCD is far better at teaching the humanities, they actually treat their students as adults and encourage self directed learning and curiosity, as opposed to colleges like UCD who treat you like a child and an imbecile.

There's plenty of that at Trinity in 2010. It's partly to do with the "State pays for everything" mentality. People come in expecting Leaving Cert applied -style lecturing.

Killer Pigeon

Denerick wrote: »

For a start they would demand rhetorical flourishes such as mine be moderated in the interests of vague aspirations to objectivity. They'll harp on about the 'skill set' (One of the most hideous terms devised by modern management consultant parasites) they will gain from a degree that won't teach you skills, but ideally should only serve to broaden your mind. Finally they have to keep exams and essays really easy as most of their applicants are generic arts entrants on c. 320 CAO points - make the course too challenging and they will drop out. UCD would lose a cash cow. So in a very real sense students are treated like children. And economic units.

Arts was 365 this year. By the way, how would that poor little Irish Studies student in Trinity cope with only 330 points. Mind you I wouldn't know much about Arts in either UCD or Trinity because I'm not in that particular field of study. I'd also love to find how you came about the conclusion that exams, etc., are 'dumbed' down in UCD Arts. I'd imagine they'd have to maintain a certain standard. I'm guessing that that point you made was biased and in part due to your lack of "logical consistency". If it is true, then I'm quite shocked that some students in Arts in UCD managed to go on to such universities as the London School of Economics & Political Science, Cambridge and Oxford to further their studies with such an underclass and substandard quality of education.

evercloserunion

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Yes because Religion and the classics are of utmost importance for the future of our world :rolleyes:

I wonder how many people's opinions are those of D4 heads looking down on Limerick

It's not just the D4 heads that look down on Limerick.



/runs away

DublinWriter

Denerick wrote: »

TCD is far better at teaching the humanities, they actually treat their students as adults and encourage self directed learning and curiosity, as opposed to colleges like UCD who treat you like a child and an imbecile.

I can't comment on UCD as I did my under and post grad science degrees at Trinity.

The impression I got from TCD was they had greater emphasis on individual growth by accident rather than design by a very eclectic assembly of lecturers and professors. Some were brilliant and could have had careers as stand-up comedians, some were plain-academically brilliant and engaging and some had you stabbing yourself in the thigh with a pencil under the desk in an effort to keep awake.

JonJoeDali

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Arts was 365 this year. By the way, how would that poor little Irish Studies student in Trinity cope with only 330 points. Mind you I wouldn't know much about Arts in either UCD or Trinity because I'm not in that particular field of study. I'd also love to find how you came about the conclusion that exams, etc., are 'dumbed' down in UCD Arts. I'd imagine they'd have to maintain a certain standard. I'm guessing that that point you made was biased and in part due to your lack of "logical consistency". If it is true, then I'm quite shocked that some students in Arts in UCD managed to go on to such universities as the London School of Economics & Political Science, Cambridge and Oxford to further their studies with such an underclass and substandard quality of education.

It's not about the points. It's the state of mind. Which is why I'd favour Oxbridge style interviews. Perfect life 600 points types can be very dull - like parrots rotating on a broken turntable.

estadio

Trinity is the highest ranked University in Ireland! Therefore it usually attracts the best students, lecturers(i ajume Bidisha Gosh was an exception) e.t.c that is why it is hard to get in to Trinity. So it is not overrated.

Denerick

DublinWriter wrote: »

I can't comment on UCD as I did my under and post grad science degrees at Trinity.

I have a mate who did the same degree as me, but in UCD. His essays were far easier and his exam was more akin to the leaving cert paper in the same subject. I couldn't understand why it was so different. He was a bright lad, but not that bright a lad. Certainly not bright enough to get a first without putting any work in at all! Which to me speaks volumes about the difficulty of the humanities in TCD. I have heard good things about their postgrad programmes, apparantly individual lecturers are given more freedom to express themsleves than at undergraduate level.

Another issue is intimacy. In UCD you will share a lecture hall with 400 people and will never even be within a stones throw of your lecturer. In TCD you can build up personal rapport, and quite easily.

The impression I got from TCD was they had greater emphasis on individual growth by accident rather than design by a very eclectic assembly of lecturers and professors.

I can completely relate to that. I know one lecturer who literally explodes with charisma, and can make obscure nineteenth century historians sound fascinating, profound and highly relevant... and I know another who is highly respected as an academic, writes wonderfully witty books, but is an absolute bore in the classroom. Its a funny old system really.

Killer Pigeon

JonJoeDali wrote: »

It's not about the points. It's the state of mind. Which is why I'd favour Oxbridge style interviews. Perfect life 600 points types can be very dull - like parrots rotating on a broken turntable.

Trinity: It's not the standard of education that counts, rather the state of mind ....


????

Killer Pigeon

Denerick wrote: »

Another issue is intimacy. In UCD you will share a lecture hall with 400 people and will never even be within a stones throw of your lecturer. In TCD you can build up personal rapport, and quite easily.

It depends on what you're studying. For example if you were in science in UCD you'd start off with 300 people in the same lecture theatre and then over time once you specialise into your specific area of interest you'll end up in a class of about 20-30. I study physics and maths and this is the case, so I'd never really feel intimidated if I wanted to go up and speak to the lecturer about something. I'm guessing that this would be the same in TCD general science.

Cpt_Blackbeard

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Numbers don't lie. Where is UL on the international university rankings?

Also, why are you so dismissive of religion and classics? Do you know anyone who has a BA in theology or classics? I'm a techie and have lots of respect for a quality classic education. I guess you're one of those people who weigh the value of an education in terms of its economic value. If you want an education, go to a red brick university (no, that doesn't include DCU). If you want a qualification, I'm sure UL will do something for your job prospects in one of the local factories.

A university with a much longer history based in the capital of the country is obviously going to have more students and lectures, thus greatly increasing its publications and its international rankings...

I have no problem with an appreciation of the classics and how it can broaden ones views, but to disregard a university who educates the future of a country based on its lack of courses that study the past is crazy!

Well if you're asking if I'd consider the person who cures cancer much more important than one who publishes articles about new interpretations of Grecian society? Then yes, yes I would :rolleyes:

Cpt_Blackbeard

On the topic of the thread;

I'd consider Trinity, a college with a prestigious history, but a college that is well aware of this leading to a better-than-you attitude

boblong

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

A university with a much longer history based in the capital of the country is obviously going to have more students and lectures, thus greatly increasing its publications and its international rankings...

I'm not sure that the quantity of students, lectures and publications is really a metric for those rankings.

I would imagine, however, that they attempt to base it on the quality of the work being done. I'm open to being proven wrong though.

Cpt_Blackbeard

boblong wrote: »

I'm not sure the quantity of students, lectures and publications is really a metric for those rankings.

I would imagine, however, that they attempt to base it on the quality of the work being done. I'm open to being proven wrong though.

AFAIK the ranking are based heavily on:
-Size e.g. the amount of students etc.
-Publications e.g. how much work conducted in the university is published. The work would have to have some sort of quality to be published in the first place. More lecturers would mean more publications.
-Facilities. I'd assume that this covers the range of subjects offered and of course the educational ones.

I think that each department is given a score and then an average is calculated. I remember reading something about the ranking before but I can't find a link

Equium

Personally I think it's slightly over-rated.
My department in particular is a shambles with deadlines for assignments being drawn up/forgotten about on a whim. The standard of lecturers is also below what I had expected, as are the facilities in general.
I feel the prestige associated with the university is built more on history than current standards of excellence. But then again I can't comment on other departments so I could be wrong.

JonJoeDali

Equium wrote: »

Personally I think it's slightly over-rated.
My department in particular is a shambles with deadlines for assignments being drawn up/forgotten about on a whim. The standard of lecturers is also below what I had expected, as are the facilities in general.
I feel the prestige associated with the university is built more on history than current standards of excellence. But then again I can't comment on other departments so I could be wrong.

There's certainly a "living off the legend" element alright.

Equium

JonJoeDali wrote: »

There's certainly a "living off the legend" element alright.

Long may it continue though (assuming I do actually graduate).

andrew

In before 'University ranking tables mean nothing.'

underthetides

Having studied in both TCD and UCD I feel I can legitimately comment on this. Currently a TCD student.

In terms of teaching and academic challenges, Trinity is far superior. Everything is more personal, should you have a problem you can get talking to the relevant person in no-time, in UCD you'll be left with emailing about seven different people. I found the academic standard far, far higher in Trinity. In my department at least, exams and essay questions were simply more difficult than their UCD counterparts (yes, I did compare one for one). An essay of mine received a 2.2 in Trinity and an essay of my friend's on a similar topic recieved a first in UCD. The standards were pretty much the same, if anything, mine was better. I had a similar experience with someone I know in NUIM, studying the same course.

What I will concede is that, facility-wise, UCD trumps Trinity, hands down. The opening hours of the TCD library, alongside vital things like laptop plugs, printing, helpfulness of library staff, etc - disgraceful compared to UCD, and I from what I hear, NUIM as well. In terms of small but important things like a reliable internet service, a decent restaurant, printing facilities, online resources for students, Trinity is a disgrace compared to its supposedly 'inferior' counterparts.

Killer Pigeon

underthetides wrote: »

Having studied in both TCD and UCD I feel I can legitimately comment on this. Currently a TCD student.

In terms of teaching and academic challenges, Trinity is far superior. Everything is more personal, should you have a problem you can get talking to the relevant person in no-time, in UCD you'll be left with emailing about seven different people. I found the academic standard far, far higher in Trinity. In my department at least, exams and essay questions were simply more difficult than their UCD counterparts (yes, I did compare one for one). An essay of mine received a 2.2 in Trinity and an essay of my friend's on a similar topic recieved a first in UCD. The standards were pretty much the same, if anything, mine was better. I had a similar experience with someone I know in NUIM, studying the same course.

What I will concede is that, facility-wise, UCD trumps Trinity, hands down. The opening hours of the TCD library, alongside vital things like laptop plugs, printing, helpfulness of library staff, etc - disgraceful compared to UCD, and I from what I hear, NUIM as well. In terms of small but important things like a reliable internet service, a decent restaurant, printing facilities, online resources for students, Trinity is a disgrace compared to its supposedly 'inferior' counterparts.

Wouldn't it all depend on what you're studying though? I mean Trinity is obviously going to be far superior in Arts & Humanities. You can downgrade an entire university just because it has one bad faculty.

JonJoeDali

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Wouldn't it all depend on what you're studying though? I mean Trinity is obviously going to be far superior in Arts & Humanities. You can downgrade an entire university just because it has one bad faculty.

Hey! Don't forget Physics and the life sciences (some of our best departments I would say). Also, our computer science department is one of the oldest in the world (1973) - refer to it as the SCSS at your peril!

_Exasperated_

It's Ireland's best and I can clearly see why.

Killer Pigeon

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Hey! Don't forget Physics and the life sciences (some of our best departments I would say). Also, our computer science department is one of the oldest in the world (1973) - refer to it as the SCSS at your peril!

Does Trinity have a contingent working over in CERN? I don't think so, UCD however does. UCD really does excel over Trinity in the area of Experimental Physics (and probably most of the material sciences, including engineering). Oh and also, just because one of your departments, i.e., your computer science department, is one of the oldest in the world, doesn't make it the best in the world or in Ireland for that matter. I would sooner go to UCD or Maynooth to study Computer Science (or even DCU). Trinity is and has always been renounced for its Arts, Humanities and Law faculties and it is from these faculties that it gains most of its 'prestige', sometimes this air of 'prestige' can rub off some of its other faculties which really is disingenuous in my opinion.

Craguls

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Does Trinity have a contingent working over in CERN? I don't think so, UCD however does. UCD really does excel over Trinity in the area of Experimental Physics (and probably most of the material sciences, including engineering). Oh and also, just because one of your departments, i.e., your computer science department, is one of the oldest in the world, doesn't make it the best in the world or in Ireland for that matter. I would sooner go to UCD or Maynooth to study Computer Science (or even DCU). Trinity is and has always been renounced for its Arts, Humanities and Law faculties and it is from these faculties that it gains most of its 'prestige', sometimes this air of 'prestige' can rub off some of its other faculties which really is disingenuous in my opinion.

Both colleges can throw statistics like that around, if anything at the end of the day it evens out overall and you're worse for caring.

Tragedy

I don't think TCD CS has been the same since the best and brightest left to form Havok.

Killer Pigeon

Tragedy wrote: »

I don't think TCD CS has been the same since the best and brightest left to form Havok.

Or since the points for CS on its own apparently dropped to 350.

Tragedy

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Or since the points for CS on its own apparently dropped to 350.

The points wouldn't have dropped so far if it were the best CS course in Ireland.

grenache

JonJoeDali wrote: »

UL is not a university AFAIC. There's no theology and classics department for staters. It's a glorified State-funded regional polytech and is driven by politics, not intellectualism. That said, there's plenty of pop studying going on at Trinity.

The only thing preventing us from assimilating fully into one of seven homogenised HEA-approved universities is the power of our 400 year legacy.[/B]

a
chip on your shoulder there perhaps? University of Limerick is not a University? I've heard it all now The clue is in the name Any particular reason why you consider UL a kip? If you've ever studied its course structure then you will know its the top university in Ireland for sports sciences. Hence the presence of the country's national sports academy at Plassey adjacent to the college. Its bio-sciences department is also highly regarded.

boblong

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Or since the points for CS on its own apparently dropped to 350.

This I don't get, do you understand how CAO points "work"?

mushykeogh

grenache wrote: »

a
If you've ever studied its course structure then you will know its the top university in Ireland for sports sciences. Hence the presence of the country's national sports academy at Plassey adjacent to the college. Its bio-sciences department is also highly regarded.

Yep, has some world respected sports science contributors.

JonJoeDali

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Does Trinity have a contingent working over in CERN? I don't think so, UCD however does. UCD really does excel over Trinity in the area of Experimental Physics (and probably most of the material sciences, including engineering).

Ah yes, because if you're not involved at CERN, you can't publish Nature papers or get accepted in the top 10 physics journals. How many papers from your beloved UCD have been accepted in the top 10 Physics journals over the last 10 years versus Trinity? Oh, and we have a CRANN that's currently firing on all cylinders and is pumping out the papers. IMO, Physics is the best department in Trinity.

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Oh and also, just because one of your departments, i.e., your computer science department, is one of the oldest in the world, doesn't make it the best in the world or in Ireland for that matter.

It's still one of the oldest and has a legacy that other institutions would die for.

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I would sooner go to UCD or Maynooth to study Computer Science (or even DCU).

Lol. Is that because you do a year in a multinational and are therefore "better qualified", more "hands on" and more "practically minded"? If you want to learn how to program, DCU is right up your street. If you want to learn the science of computers, Trinity is your only man.

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Trinity is and has always been renounced for its Arts, Humanities and Law faculties and it is from these faculties that it gains most of its 'prestige', sometimes this air of 'prestige' can rub off some of its other faculties which really is disingenuous in my opinion.

Do you know anything about the research in Physics and the life sciences that goes on in Trinity? Also, the school of medicine is up there with the best in the world.

JonJoeDali

mushykeogh wrote: »

Yep, has some world respected sports science contributors.

Because "sports science" is of great intellectual importance to the future of humanity. If I had a penny for every gym-goer I see on various popular TV shows who fancies an easy body beautiful by getting a job in the local gym, I'd be a rich man.

Same goes for "degrees" in "photography", "animation" and "tourism".